448 replies to this topic

[cmpercell]

I have been taking a bovine colostrum capsule as it helps calm my seasonal allergies. I believe it naturally contains Lactobacillus reuteri and after reading this thread it explains a lot regarding the possible hormonal effect I have received, lol.
Thanks for the info.

[Khris]

Exist one powerful formula of this product? 200 cfu is too low?

[sdxl]

Exist one powerful formula of this product? 200 cfu is too low?

 

No, there isn't anything higher with this strain on the market. One tablet has 200 million CFU, only half is ATCC PTA 6475. BioGaia may launch a supplement with more CFU in the future.

[Khris]

Exist one powerful formula of this product? 200 cfu is too low?

No, there isn't anything higher with this strain on the market. One tablet has 200 million CFU, only half is ATCC PTA 6475. BioGaia may launch a supplement with more CFU in the future.

Thanks!
I will try two tablets for 18 days

[shp5]

I love it when longecity gets into DIY.

 

I will be using my wather-bath-incubator I normally do my sous-vide steaks in to manufacture some 6475-yoghurt. Our best guess is to incubate at 37°C and to add some glucose to select for reuteri 6475.

 

Could someone make an educated guess on how much glucose I would need? 2g/100ml?

 

 

Also, we need the pure reuteri strain...

[sdxl]

I love it when longecity gets into DIY.

 

I will be using my wather-bath-incubator I normally do my sous-vide steaks in to manufacture some 6475-yoghurt. Our best guess is to incubate at 37°C and to add some glucose to select for reuteri 6475.

 

Could someone make an educated guess on how much glucose I would need? 2g/100ml?

 

 

Also, we need the pure reuteri strain...

 

37^oC is fine. Glucose is also fermented by DSM 17938. Adding glucose to your medium does not make it a selective medium for either strain in Gastrus.

 

20g of glucose per liter is what is used in MRS broth, the typically used medium to grow these bacteria in. Milk is not the best medium for growing these bacteria, especially if you want a pure culture with high count.

[fntms]

In practice low fat uht pasteurized milk (boiled for several minutes) seems to be working fine for my yogurt production based on the two strains in the pills. Are you saying water (sterile) with 20% glucose would be better and perhaps more practical ?

[shp5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRS_agar

 

So the main ingredients are 1% agar, 1% beef extract, 0,4% yeast extract and 2% glucose as nutrients, and 0.5% sodium acetate to inhibit the growth of other microorganisms. sodium acetate is a safe food additive (E262). This seems to be doable, however I'd prefer someone with a professional backround to confirm. Would it make more sense to discuss this on reddit?

Edited by shp5, 30 November 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[sdxl]

In practice low fat uht pasteurized milk (boiled for several minutes) seems to be working fine for my yogurt production based on the two strains in the pills. Are you saying water (sterile) with 20% glucose would be better and perhaps more practical ?

 

Just because they grow in milk, doesn't make it an ideal medium. Glucose in water alone is absolutely insufficient for the growth of these bacteria. 20% glucose is way too much. 

[sdxl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRS_agar

 

So the main ingredients are 1% agar, 1% beef extract, 0,4% yeast extract and 2% glucose as nutrients, and 0.5% sodium acetate to inhibit the growth of other microorganisms. sodium acetate is a safe food additive (E262). This seems to be doable, however I'd prefer someone with a professional backround to confirm. Would it make more sense to discuss this on reddit?

 

You don't need agar, unless you want a solid medium. There is a reason for every ingredient in the MRS media. Some ingredients may be replaced. There is always room for optimizing the medium for a particular strain. 

[fluidity]

Does anyone know if a groupbuy can be done with this strain? Then have everyone create their own yogurt with it? That would certainly be awesome. 

 

 

Guys check it out! It's available online apparently. The only thing is how it will be viable for creating a probiotic yogurt considering the ATCC website says it comes "frozen".

 

https://www.atcc.org...l/PTA-6475.aspx

 

Let's get a group buy rolling!

Edited by fluidity, 26 December 2016 - 02:31 AM.

[rikelme]

Amazon carries Biogaia Gastrus 30 Chewable Tablets for $29.

[fntms]

Look at the beginning of the thread, it cannot be bought on the atcc website without a special biohazard license.

Edited by fntms, 28 December 2016 - 07:32 AM.

[fluidity]

Amazon carries Biogaia Gastrus 30 Chewable Tablets for $29.

Thanks, however I'm looking for purity and quantity. The dosage of 6475 in Gastrus seems to minute, while it also has the other reuteri strain mixed in which  I don't want. It would be awesome if Biogaia could come up with an exclusive 6475 product but I'm not too sure on that. 

[sdxl]

Even if you can get the culture from the ATCC, it requires microbiology knowledge, skills and equipment to grow and maintain the culture. It doesn't come cheap, so you better know what you are doing.

 

From an in vitro study I see that ATCC PTA 6475 has excellent gastric survival and good adherence to all tested cell lines compared to other probiotic strains like Lactobacillus plantarum 299v and Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG. Minute is relative when you see how much of other strains don't make it alive.

 

If you want a pure culture you need to separate the strains yourself. You have to find out how the strains are different and apply that science. This could be the utilization of a substrate, inhibition by an antibiotic, etc.

 

[rikelme]

 

From an in vitro study I see that ATCC PTA 6475 has excellent gastric survival and good adherence to all tested cell lines compared to other probiotic strains like Lactobacillus plantarum 299v and Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG. Minute is relative when you see how much of other strains don't make it alive.

 

 

If taken orally, yes. There is, luckily, an alternative route - via anus.

[hdl_1]

Amazon carries Biogaia Gastrus 30 Chewable Tablets for $29.

Thanks, however I'm looking for purity and quantity. The dosage of 6475 in Gastrus seems to minute, while it also has the other reuteri strain mixed in which I don't want. It would be awesome if Biogaia could come up with an exclusive 6475 product but I'm not too sure on that.

At least you'll get the quantity if you make it in your own home made yogourt. I recently made 1 Gallon of probiotic which just 2 tablets of Biogaia Gastrus and it turned out really good. I'm sure I'm getting way more of 100M cfu.

[Heisok]

Not sure if all strains of bacteria reside in the nether regions which a retention enema can reach. Some people, Dr. Perlmutter I think for one, are supporters of the practice in some cases.

 

I stopped the yogurt for awhile, but also had good results incubating it for 24 hours, and then straining. Between the L. Reuteri strains and separately a B. Infantis strain, I could feel a mental boost when eating. As an aside, while eating low carb, I lost a lot more weight with the yogurt as part of my eating. Must have added a lot more fat, but maybe something else is at play. I am not trying to lose weight, and that is why it is so noticeable. I am at about 178 pounds, and was just able to maintain about 170 pounds with the yogurt.

 

 

 

 

From an in vitro study I see that ATCC PTA 6475 has excellent gastric survival and good adherence to all tested cell lines compared to other probiotic strains like Lactobacillus plantarum 299v and Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG. Minute is relative when you see how much of other strains don't make it alive.

 

 

If taken orally, yes. There is, luckily, an alternative route - via anus.

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 16 February 2017 - 11:43 PM.

[aconita]

https://examine.com/...e-lying-to-you/

[Heisok]

As far as Gastrus is concerned, I know that it is viable, as it makes yogurt. I have to trust that the European standards are strong enough to ensure it has what it says.

 

As far as the Natren Bifidobacterium infantis Super Strain NLS which I like, I am 100% confident that it is what they say. They manufacture it, keep the product refrigerated, as do their brick and mortar retailers. When buying direct, it is shipped in an insulated ice chest type container with a cold pack. They recommend keeping it refrigerated. (I would not buy their products from an on line retailer who ships UN-refridgerated.) I like the fact that they sell this product as a powder which includes the supernatant growth medium.

 

 

"Natren has been offering the highest quality probiotic supplements in the world since 1982, making us the world leader in probiotics. Our custom probiotic products are manufactured in a state-of-the-art facility in Westlake Village, California that is International cGMP certified and audited by Australia's TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration) - signatory to the PIC/S (Pharmaceutical Inspection Convention / Scheme, Geneva Switzerland).

Natren has been manufacturing LIFE START infant probiotics for over 20 years. This children's probiotic powder was specifically formulated for a baby's developing gastrointestinal tract. Natren is one of the only companies with experience in culturing the extremely picky bacteria strain Bifidobacterium infantis, which needs a very specific, oxygen-free environment in which to grow."

[sdxl]

Using Gastrus tablets to ferment milk doesn't seem like a great idea if you want to optimize the growth of ATCC PTA 6475.

 

http://journals.plos...ne.0018783.s007

 

 L. reuteri ATCC 55730 = light grey 

 L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475 = dark grey

 

 DSM 17938 is derived from ATCC 55730 

 

A medium with glucose as the sole fermentable carbohydrate seems to be the best choice for culturing ATCC PTA 6475.

[monowav]

Has anyone had a problem with BioGaia being fermented in barley? Any reactions to the lactose or gluten in it?

[hotbit]

Finally I was able to purchase gastrus tablets. Un-dusted yoghurt maker. To encourage 6475 over the other strain (if it's possible in milk at all, as 17938 probably doubles on lactose faster) I have added ~5g of glucose per 200ml. I've been looking for glucose in grocery shops for weeks, at last found it in the... pharmacy! I will see tomorrow some results. Fingers crossed.

 

 

Using Gastrus tablets to ferment milk doesn't seem like a great idea if you want to optimize the growth of ATCC PTA 6475.

A medium with glucose as the sole fermentable carbohydrate seems to be the best choice for culturing ATCC PTA 6475.

 

 

True. But also you need to add some other nutrients. At the end to swallow it

There is a lot to research, discover, experiment  and optimise. Bacteria count in gastrus tablets is so low...
 

Edited by hotbit, 22 February 2017 - 12:25 AM.

[hotbit]

Has anyone had a problem with BioGaia being fermented in barley? Any reactions to the lactose or gluten in it?

 

Does barley contain any lactose?

 

On the other hand it contains maltose - just today I've read that at least some strains of reuteri (it was unnamed  strain isolated from mouse) grow on maltose better than on glucose...

 

Please share here your barley reuteri-beer experiments

[monowav]

 

Has anyone had a problem with BioGaia being fermented in barley? Any reactions to the lactose or gluten in it?

 

Does barley contain any lactose?

 

On the other hand it contains maltose - just today I've read that at least some strains of reuteri (it was unnamed  strain isolated from mouse) grow on maltose better than on glucose...

 

Please share here your barley reuteri-beer experiments

 

No but biogaia says their reuteri has lactose and gluten in it. And they culture it in barley. Just wondering if anyone with gluten or lactose intolerance have tried it and their experience. 

[hotbit]

My first attempt to make reuteri yoghurt from gastrus tablets looks unsuccessful. I have cultivated milk at optimal temperature of 37C. First 20 hours milk was very runny and suddenly... I had jars of cheese with raised lids due to sudden fermentation . 

 

 reuteri-yoghurt-attempt.jpg   60.97KB   6 downloads

 

 

Edited by hotbit, 22 February 2017 - 09:38 PM.

[hotbit]

My first attempt to make reuteri yoghurt from gastrus tablets looks unsuccessful.

 

Successful? My previous yoghurt batches based on other strains were thick, without any separation. At first I have assumed something went wrong here. However, it all might have worked out well. Whey and curd separation occurs quite often in yoghurt making. I have used glucose from pharmacy and it was contaminated with vitamin C for unknown reasons. Vitamin C or additives present in tablets could enhance curd formation.. Or maybe reuteri bacteria make curd formation more likely?

 

I have consumed cheese (curd) and whey. Cheese was light, with plenty bubbles, slightly acidic and with a distinct note of sweetness. Apparently not all sugars were consumed by bacteria. Whey tasted similar, slightly acidic and with a distinct note of sweetness. It's around 16 hours now - no adverse effects observed.

 

Separation occurred in 3 out of 6 jars. In other 3 content is more homogeneous, but quite runny. Those would separate too if I left them in the maker for another 2-3 hours. It looks and smells quite similar to natural 'yoghurt' made from raw milk made without addition of any yoghurt cultures, but still is more runny.

[Heisok]

hotbit, I know you are knowledgeable, but I will ask anyway. How did you process the milk prior to inoculation?

 

I always sterilize everything as much as possible. Even spray my canning jars with 91 % alcohol. I slowly heat my milk to 180 degrees, and try to hold it around there for 20 minutes or so. (I read somewhere that the protein in the milk is changed somehow, but I do not understand that.) I then cool the milk by placing the container in cool water changed multiple times until it reaches about 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Then I inoculate, and put it in the oven around 98 to around 102 degrees depending on how accurately I regulate the temp. Let it go for 24 to 25 hours, and then strain after it sits for 1/2 hour or so at room temperature.

 

The Karlson study referenced back in this thread due to the greater multiplication by adding some yogurt to the milk, was studying partially using 17938  for making cheese.

 

"Evaluation of Lactobacillus reuteri DSM17938 as starter in cheese production  Madeleine Karlsson"

 

stud.epsilon.slu.se/5988/1/karlsson_m_130828.pdf

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 23 February 2017 - 10:15 PM.

[fntms]

I for one let the milk 'boil' for about 5 minutes then let it cool down by opening the window! Not the most sanitary conditions to be sure. Then I inoculate (with the previous Gastrus reuteri yogurt) and leave it in the oven which has been heated up a bit before (50 degrees C) but then cut off. It works after 12 hrs or less sometimes (over night). Sometimes I have to (?) reheat the oven a bit and let it sit longer and then it works. I would rather use pure glucose in water which would save some heating trouble, but has anyone succeeded in doing this?
Next time I will try to add glucose if I can find some.

[hotbit]

...

 

1) I always sterilize everything as much as possible. Even spray my canning jars with 91 % alcohol.

 

2) Let it go for 24 to 25 hours, and then strain after it sits for 1/2 hour or so at room temperature.

 

3) ... using 17938  for making cheese.

 

Hi Heisok,

 

ad 1) You have great hygiene regime

I have also used alcohol and boiling water. But your post reminded me I have used not-so-fresh milk I wasn't happy with, so I rushed to the shop for a fresh milk for new experiments.

 

ad 2) Weak or dried cultures need longer time. I've prepared a rough calculator, will share later. 

Straining - I wonder, you might loose most of the bacteria if you don't use whey? Don't have hard numbers, hunch based on CFU count from this thread:

https://www.paleohac...ek-yogurt-14751

 

ad 3) Good to read it again. They had problems with making cheese using reuteri, so they were looking how to enhance the process. A. Reuteri produces only slightly acidic environment, not great for curding. Thus opposite than in my home experiments.

 

PS. During heating milk proteins are break apart (aminoacids) and are easier consumed by bacteria.  

 

My home experiment no 2.

 

Effects were similar as in my first attempt. 

I have inoculated milk with curd and whey from first batch and in some other jars I've used tablets. Some jars were enhanced with sucrose, some with glucose. All with vit. B.

Fermentation time in jars where old batch was used was much shorter - around 10h. Fermentation in jars where tablets where used took 21+ hours.

 

There was a difference between 'sucrose' and 'glucose' jars. 

- sucrose - curd and whey separation less visible, Curd tastes soft and gluey, distinctive / full body. Whey mixed with some curd, slightly acidic taste.  

- glucose - Curd and whey separation more visible than in Jar 3. Curd tastes light and crispy, distinctive / full body. Whey well separated from curd, mellow in colour, mildly acidic taste. 

 reuteri-sucrose-glucose.jpg   113.87KB   4 downloads

From left (photo after ~8h of fermentation, separation was even more visible after 2 more hours):

Jar 1 - reuteri + sucrose

Jar 2 - reuteri + glucose

Jar 3 - reuteri + sucrose

Jar 4 - reuteri + glucose

 

I've add only glucose to one of the jars. Still separation occurred, but curd was floating around bottom/middle, very slightly acidic, sweet, bland taste.  Disposed off.

 

My home experiment no 3.

 

All: milk + 2ml coconut oil + vit B + dry malt extract (~25g / l )

(The saccharide profile of Malt Extract, for example is 1-2% fructose, 7-10% glucose, 1-3% sucrose, 39-42% maltose, 10-15% maltotriose and 25-30% higher saccharides. https://www.maltprod...hatismalt.html)

 

*Gr8 – Gr8-dophillus – mix of 6 or so bacteria. Unfortunately bottle I found is on the shelf is 6 month after bb date... (checket after inoculation).

 

Also kefir was 2 weeks after the date, although kept in the fridge and unopened.

 

Jar 1

Inoculated with Kefir

Taste is similar to original kefir (bought from the shop) with distinct malt taste on top.

No whey and curd separation.

 

Jar 2

Kefir + 1/2 Gastrus tablet

 

Jar 3

Gr8 + 1/2 Gastrus tablet

Strong whey and curd separation.

 

Jar 4

Gr8 + 1/2 Gastrus tablet

Strong whey and curd separation.

 

Jar 5

Gr8

Medium whey and curd separation. Curd not jumping out from whey as in gastrus based samples.

 

Jar 6

1/2 Gastrus tablet

Jar filled just to half capacity, still curd managed to slightly touch the lid.

Strong whey and curd separation.

 

 kefir-reuteri.jpg   95.55KB   1 downloads

Inoculated with kefir and reuteri, jar filled only to half capacity.

 

 kefir-and-reuteri.jpg   78.89KB   2 downloads

Left - only kefir added, good water retention, no curd separation.

Right - only reuteri (gastrus)

Fermentation time was much shorter than in previous tests and took between 6 & 10 hours. Maltose content and general sugar variety plus vitamins from group B had visible impact on bacterial doubling time.  

 

Some doubling times:

 

Lactobacillus REUTERI strain 100–23 (found in mice)

glucose  -  88 min 

maltose  - 48 min

 

Lactobacillus johnsonii strain 100–33 

glucose - 38 min

maltose - 53 min

http://www.nature.co...ej2011161a.html

 

Escherichia coli Glucose-salts 17 min

Streptococcus lactis Milk 26 min (cheese making, buttermilk)

Lactobacillus acidophilus Milk 66-87 min

Rhizobium japonicum Mannitol-salts-yeast extract 344-461 min

http://textbookofbac...t/growth_3.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by hotbit, 27 February 2017 - 10:59 PM.