448 replies to this topic

[William Sterog]

From a quick look on Amazon it appears that PB8 consists of a blend of 8 Lactobacillae with a CFU of 14 billion per capsule. Up against that you're pitting Gastrus with a CFU of 100 million per tablet. Bacteria compete for growth media! Which do you think is going to win? There could well be next to no L Reuteri living in your yoghurt.

On the other hand, the bacteria may co-operate such that the by-products of PB8 help the Reuteri to grow, as is the case with S Thermophilus and L Bulgaricus (the bacteria used to make standard yoghurt). In your case, we simply don't know which bacteria will dominate, so none of your symptoms can definitely be ascribed to 6475.

I made one with PB8, two with Gastrus and three with Gastrus and PB8. The Gastrus didn't produce yogurt on its own, just a weird liquid full of granules. I will use that to try to make a second batch. PB8 plus Gastrus made a thick yogurt with a weird taste, PB8 alone made a thick yogurt with a great, strong taste, a better yogurt than the one I buy in the store.

[Oakman]

I finished the 1st batch of yogurt I've ever made. I used a VonShef time/temp adjustable yogurt maker. The results exceeding my wildest expectations, being both mild tasting and tangy. I added some blueberry spread to make it even better just before eating. It was firm and not watery in the least. I used a 30 hr fermentation @~37C that gave a good acidic (>4.5 ph) result and hopefully a lot of good bacteria. The recipe below is based on Dr. Davis' posts (WheatBelly Blog) with a couple additions, honey and glucomannan, plus an acidifying starter yogurt to aid L reuteri fermentation. References for the changes I made follow the recipe. 

 

-------------------------

Oakman's Test & Oxytocin Yogurt

 

This recipe uses full fat milk for a couple reasons. The fat globules protect the probiotic strains in your digestive tract, the lactose breakdown produces extra sugar for fermentation, and the competing lactic acid loving strains growth will be limited with no lactic acid available. Plus no heating and cooling the milk first as it is UHT, and anyone with lactose intolerance is fine eating this obviously, and last, it tastes so much better than low fat yogurt IMO

• ~1000ml (~3 cups) milk, lactose free, full fat¹
• 1 tsp. honey²
• 2 tbsp. siggis yogurt w/probiotic; S. thermophilus, L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus & lactis (acidifying probiotic)³
• 7 BioGaia Gastrus L. reuteri Probiotic tablets, crushed (ATCC PTA 6475, DSM 17938), providing 700M organisms 
• 7 g glucomannan (prebiotic)⁴
• 2 tbsp. potato starch, unmodified resistant starch (prebiotic)⁵

 

Crush the tablets to a powder with a small mortar and pestle. Mix the dry ingredients separately, then the wet ingredients separately. Finally, whisk the dry mixture into the wet mixture, ensure good dispersion, but do not over stir.

 

Pour about 150ml into each of seven small yogurt jar, cover, and put in yogurt maker or whatever temperature controlled device you have.  Set temperature to 100F or 37C. Monitor the temperature and adjust if necessary over the 24-36 hrs fermentation time.  With a doubling of L. reuteri every 3 hrs., @24 hrs. you should get ~180 Billion organisms, @36 hrs. you might have ~2.9 Trillion! ⁶

 

When finished, cool the jars in the fridge for 8-72 hours, as the flavor ripens to a point. Best to consume within 10 days on an every other day basis. Save some of the yogurt to use as a starter for the next batch

 

1  "LACTAID® products contain lactase, a natural enzyme that helps break down lactose – the sugar found in dairy foods like milk, ice cream or cheese—into two simple sugars (galactose and glucose) that are easily digested." Link.  Make L reuteri yogurt Link.

2  Chemical Composition of Honey  Link. Impact of fortification with honey on some properties of bio-yoghurt  Link

3  Evaluation of L. reuteri DSM17938 as starter in cheese production  Link.

4  Utilization of konjac glucomannan as a fat replacer in low-fat and skimmed yogurt  Link; The Low Carb Thickener - Konjac Flour  Link

5  Fertilize the garden called “bowel flora” Link.

6  The arithmetic of yogurt  Link.  Calculate doubling in a timespan  Link.

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[Keizo]

From a quick look on Amazon it appears that PB8 consists of a blend of 8 Lactobacillae with a CFU of 14 billion per capsule

 

 

14 billion "**at time of manufacture". Whatever that means.

 

And whatever BioGaias "at time of expiration" means. 

[TerryFirmer]

 With a doubling of L. reuteri every 3 hrs., @24 hrs. you should get ~180 Billion organisms, @36 hrs. you might have ~2.9 Trillion! ⁶

 

 

This is why I give scant regard to the instructions on the wheatbelly site. The many scientific studies I have read about L Reuteri show that growth stops after 16-24 hours, and my microbiologist friend confirms that this is typical of all bacteria - at a certain point the bugs simply run out of substrate to support further growth.
 

[Oakman]

This is why I give scant regard to the instructions on the wheatbelly site. The many scientific studies I have read about L Reuteri show that growth stops after 16-24 hours, and my microbiologist friend confirms that this is typical of all bacteria - at a certain point the bugs simply run out of substrate to support further growth.
 

 

Yes, there is the typical exponential growth of bacteria that levels off when food runs out, and yes the maximum suggested incubation I've seen (other than wheatbelly) is 24 hrs. 24 hrs may well be the maximum useful ferment time. But there is one thing I've noticed researching these parameters too, and that is that in making yogurt - the recommended methods, times, temperatures, milk, additives, and just about everything done or used varies a lot from one author/chef/researcher to another. From this I gather that actually, making yogurt is generally a simple, easy DIY project, simply because this variability allows almost anyone to be successful!

 

 

For example, I've read you can't/shouldn't: use UHT milk or use lactose free milk to make yogurt, and the temperature should be at least 105-115 degrees F. And you suggest that 30+ hours is to long to ferment.

 

Yet I've made two batches now with UHT, lactose free milk at 97-104 degrees F and fermented for 30 hrs in each case, making firm/delicious tasting/looking yogurt. Perhaps it is the prebiotic starch, glucomannan and honey that makes this possible? From what I've read low temperature and longer ferment times give a more acid result and apparently the BioGaia strains like that, or at least the DSM 17938, so am assuming that both strains do.

 

I looked to this study for insight to the needs of DSM 17938, and as reason as to why I added an adjuvant culture to help nurture the DSM 17938 (and ACC PTA 6475) in the fermentation process, as both should have been chosen to grow together under similar conditions.

 

"A number of studies have been published concerning insufficient growth and acidification of L. reuteri in milk, and different suggestions have been made concerning the underlying reason for this. Xanthopoulos et al. (2000) showed that L. reuteri didn’t acidify milk at levels of pH 4.5 after 24 hours, which is important in the production of fermented milk."

 

"The traditional flora of yoghurt consists of both S. salivarius ssp. thermophilus and L. delbrueckii ssp. bulgaricus. In order to achieve the characteristic flavor of yoghurt, the two species are present in equal numbers, approximately. They have a synergistic relationship, as they both grow better together than in pure culture. L. delbrueckii provides small peptides and amino acids by its proteolytic activity, of which valine, with a low concentration in milk, is the most important one. S. thermophilus is weakly proteolytic, and the presence of L. delbrueckii will therefore promote its growth in milk. On the contrary, S. thermophilus produces formic acid and CO2, which enhances the growth of L. delbrueckii. The production of free amino acids could be the foundation of a synergistic relationship with probiotic bacteria, depending on the strain and process conditions (Oliveira et al., 2001). Both S. thermophilus and L. delbrueckii have formerly been used in probiotic cheese in order to improve technological properties and taste of the final product (Karimi et al., 2005). A drawback worth mentioning is the ability of L. delbrueckii to produce acid during cold storage of the cheese, known in the industry as postacidification. This increase in acidity could influence the survival of some probiotic bacteria. The probiotic strain L. reuteri DSM17938 used in this study"

 

All these (and other) references are just so many words, but the results are what counts. Without doing a bacteria count of what I've produced, this is just conjecture obviously, but it is based on some ideas gleaned from research.... and yes, even what Mr. WheatBelly has to say as well... I mean he say he too has great results!

 

In any event, may your yogurt ferment well   however you chose to do it.

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Edited by Oakman, 14 May 2019 - 02:32 PM.

[Oakman]

To anyone trying my yogurt recipe above I've got a couple of useful tips...

• The honey is extremely hard to mix into anything liquid. Best workaround is to pour the honey into 1/4 very hot water and stir like crazy. Eventually it will dissolve, then pour that in the mix.
• The potato starch will clump immediately into a gelatinous mass if you just pour it into the liquid mix. Best workaround is to stir the starch into 1/4 cup very cold water. It will dissolve nicely, then pour that into the mix.

BTW the 2nd batch came out nicely, virtually the same as the first. Difference was used only two tbsp of the 1st batch yogurt as starter, not the tablets and siggis yogurt as in the original. Happy yogurt making

[mike20g]

Oakman, thank you very much! I am getting all the ingredients tomorrow and will try this on Friday. I will use Instant Pot and will try to alter its altitude settings to get lower than 104F temperature.

[JPowers]

I have a strange problem! My original Gastrus culture was perfect, and produced delicious, creamy yogurt for months. I stupidly decided to start a fresh batch using new pills I purchased, instead of adding pills to my existing culture. My thinking was that maybe the 17938 had become too dominant, but I had no evidence of this. I just got the impression that 6475 was more finicky. Per the recommendations here, I used lactose free milk to help promote the growth of 6475 over 17938, along with 1/4 cup of dextrose per batch (half gallon of milk).

 

The first batch was really runny with chunks mixed in. I remember the original, previous batch being chunky, but not runny like this. The next batch using a culture from the first batch was bizarre. There was no whey. It was a solid, glue-like mass. I ate some, because I thought it should still be good for me, but no sugars or sweeteners could be dissolved. It was like eating silicone. You couldn't eat spoon-fulls without cutting against an edge, otherwise it would stick. I gave up and decided to start a fresh batch, thinking that heating the milk too much may have done this. When heating the milk for the 3rd batch, I made sure it didn't exceed 180 degrees F. The final batch was also bad or like Slime, which is exactly what it reminds me of. If anyone here has kids and made Slime using Borax and white glue, you know what I'm talking about. This is thicker, though.

 

So, any theories? I'm wondering if the brand of lactose free milk has some strange characteristics. They were purchased at the same time and even have the same date stamp. When Biogaia finally starts selling the 6475 pills, there should be no reason for me to use lactose free milk. I'm not going to buy any more Gastrus, though. When Osfortis becomes available, I'll start a fresh batch. In the mean time, Is it possible to create creamy yogurt again using a slime culture, or is it now dog food?

[Oakman]

I'd ask - what temperature did you ferment at, and how did you monitor it over the course of how many hours? Also why did you heat UHT lactose free milk (Lactaid is UHT, not sure of store brands) as it has already been sterilized? 

Also why do you believe 6475 will make good yogurt? It might not be a good strain for that and may need an adjuvant strain?

Edited by Oakman, 17 May 2019 - 02:47 AM.

[William Sterog]

I can't make anything with just Gastrus. It only works if I add PB8. Maybe it is only PB8 in the end, but what can I do, Gastrus on its own does not produce any yogurt, just a mint tasting milk.

[TerryFirmer]

I can't make anything with just Gastrus. It only works if I add PB8. Maybe it is only PB8 in the end, but what can I do, Gastrus on its own does not produce any yogurt, just a mint tasting milk.

 

Crushed Gastrus tablets work fine - you must be doing something wrong. Try following my instructions in post #200 in this thread. (The arabinogalactan is optional.)

[mike20g]

Started preparing yogurt following Oakman's recipe, scaled for half gallon milk. So far looks good, about 15 hours to go. May be it is a mistake, but I added Gastrus into mixed up liquids (siggy, starch, glucomanan) and then added it to milk and it immediately developed multiple clumps. I am suspecting mistake, because I did not measure temperature of liquids before adding Gastro there.

I did not heat up milk as it is ultra pasteurized. Using instant pot, which has 104f lowest temperature. My trials showed actual temperatures 104-106F. By the way altitude setting on instant pot is useless - it simply extends cooking time, no impact on temperature.

After 15 hours I looked inside pot and it looks promising despite my initial worries.

[Oakman]

Started preparing yogurt following Oakman's recipe, scaled for half gallon milk. So far looks good, about 15 hours to go. May be it is a mistake, but I added Gastrus into mixed up liquids (siggy, starch, glucomanan) and then added it to milk and it immediately developed multiple clumps. I am suspecting mistake, because I did not measure temperature of liquids before adding Gastro there.

I did not heat up milk as it is ultra pasteurized. Using instant pot, which has 104f lowest temperature. My trials showed actual temperatures 104-106F. By the way altitude setting on instant pot is useless - it simply extends cooking time, no impact on temperature.

After 15 hours I looked inside pot and it looks promising despite my initial worries.

 

 

In making my 3rd batch I realized the glucomannan was causing clumps in the mix too, and I had to strain them out.  I played around with it later, and found separately adding the powder slowly to a bit of cold water and stirring briskly makes a thick viscous mix, rather than clumps. Next time I'll cut the glucomannan grams in half and try adding that googy solution in after mixing everything else and see if it stays unclumped. I can see why bacteria like to get in and live there. Weird stuff that.

[ta5]

All we really know is that lactose is likely to favour the growth of 17938, so lactose-free milk is better than ordinary milk, and extra glucose should favour 6475.

 

Where did these ideas come from?

 

Sorry, I'm sure it's somewhere in the thread, but I didn't see it.

Edited by ta5, 18 May 2019 - 07:27 PM.

[mike20g]

It has been 30 hours, but I am getting very watery consistency with few clumps. Decided to let it cook longer out of interest to see if it gets better. I used 10 gastro tablets for half gallon milk.

[ta5]

BioGaia launches BioGaia Osfortis – a new product for the prevention of osteoporosis

https://www.biogaia....of-osteoporosis

 

I just noticed that in addition to Osfortis containing only the 6475 strain, it's also 10 billion CFU. That's 100 times the dose of Gastrus. 

https://www.biogaia....ogaia-osfortis/

[ta5]

 

• 1 tsp. honey²

2  Chemical Composition of Honey  Link. Impact of fortification with honey on some properties of bio-yoghurt  Link

 

 

I've read honey can contain it's own bacteria, some friendly, but also possibly unfriendly bacteria including C. botulinum. I notice you're not heating the whole mixture first, but relying on UHT milk, so microbes in the honey are going to multiply along with the Reuteri. I assume you're not using raw honey, so maybe it's okay, but it would still worry me. I might try including honey, but I would want to mix it in the milk and heat it all up to 180F first. 

[Oakman]

I've read honey can contain it's own bacteria, some friendly, but also possibly unfriendly bacteria including C. botulinum. I notice you're not heating the whole mixture first, but relying on UHT milk, so microbes in the honey are going to multiply along with the Reuteri. I assume you're not using raw honey, so maybe it's okay, but it would still worry me. I might try including honey, but I would want to mix it in the milk and heat it all up to 180F first. 

 

I used "Raw Unfiltered Clover Honey US Grade A Strained" made by a local family beekeeper in a nearby town.  Guessing the yogurt's acidity would sterilized whatever might be released from it in the milk. Good thought though. what I'm hoping is the probiotics eat the honey and multiply, although due to honey's antimicrobial nature, it might suppress, rather than encourage growth of pathogens. So far so good anyway, so something is working

[TerryFirmer]

Where did these ideas come from?

 

Sorry, I'm sure it's somewhere in the thread, but I didn't see it.

 

Quite a way back there's a link to a picture showing the relative growth rates of two strains of Reuteri in various media. I think sdxl originally posted it and I linked to it once.

 

It has been 30 hours, but I am getting very watery consistency with few clumps. Decided to let it cook longer out of interest to see if it gets better. I used 10 gastro tablets for half gallon milk.

 

You've got curds and whey. Assuming you were scrupulous with sterility of all materials and utensils, you can safely eat the curds and save the whey as starter for subsequent batches, which should turn out like normal yoghurt. That's how it was for me (see post #200).

[ta5]

Quite a way back there's a link to a picture showing the relative growth rates of two strains of Reuteri in various media. I think sdxl originally posted it and I linked to it once.

 

Okay thanks. I guess this is the picture (light gray is 55730 and dark gray is 6475) from figure S7 in this article.

 

I was thinking Fructose and FOS might be good, but they are very low compared to some others.

[mike20g]

You've got curds and whey. Assuming you were scrupulous with sterility of all materials and utensils, you can safely eat the curds and save the whey as starter for subsequent batches, which should turn out like normal yoghurt. That's how it was for me (see post #200).

You are right, definitely see whey separation and curd. I stirred mixture periodically as it was cooking, which I want to do more often with my next batch. As for sterilization, I used clean utensils, but not sterilized. I will let this first batch run 24 more ours stirring it periodically. Next batch I will likely start from scratch and will heat up milk and sterilize utensils. I also will skip raw honey to avoid potential bacteria.

Edited by mike20g, 19 May 2019 - 12:06 PM.

[aribadabar]

I did 2 batches - one with BB12 from Jamieson baby drops bought from Amazon and another from Biogaia Protectis again in the form of baby drops bought from Costco.10 drops each.
I used normal 2% milk without any other additives. First batch of each was a bit liquid and with a lot of whey but the second batch for which the first one was used as a starter was pretty good-looking and -tasting. I let it stay at the warm space heater for 24h after the initial inoculation of 37C milk but even at the 10h mark it looked fairly firm (which I took as a good sign).

[ta5]

Okay thanks. I guess this is the picture (light gray is 55730 and dark gray is 6475) from figure S7 in this article.

 

I was thinking Fructose and FOS might be good, but they are very low compared to some others.

 

GOS is one of the high bars in the picture, and much higher than FOS. Dr. Davis likes GOS too. So I went looking for some GOS, both to take myself and to use in making yogurt. There are surprisingly few GOS products. There's a bulk powder from China on ebay, which is maybe good or maybe not - hard to know. Klare Labs sells a powder called "Galactomune" with GOS but also Beta-Glucan, which I don't know if I want (and Dr. Davis doesn't like Beta-Glucan either).

 

There's a product called Bimuno that has GOS, Lactose, Glucose, and Galactose. According to the chart, Reuteri 6475 should love this. It has 4 out of the 6 high bars (the other two being Sucrose and Raffinose) that 6475 grows fastest in.

 

I would normally avoid the sugars, especially Lactose, but each 3.65g serving (2.9g GOS) has only 1g of sugars. 

[JPowers]

I'd ask - what temperature did you ferment at, and how did you monitor it over the course of how many hours? Also why did you heat UHT lactose free milk (Lactaid is UHT, not sure of store brands) as it has already been sterilized? 

Also why do you believe 6475 will make good yogurt? It might not be a good strain for that and may need an adjuvant strain?

 

I have a Luvele yogurt maker that I set at 100 degrees F for 36 hours. I've read multiple places that the milk should be heated to 180 degrees, but I don't think the purpose is sterilization. Maybe someone else can chime in, because I don't know the technical reason.

 

As I said, I've been making this yogurt for months and it's been perfect. Without sending it to a lab, I have no way to prove how much 6475 was in there, and it's quite possible I was eating mostly 17938 yogurt the whole time. As soon as Osfortis becomes available, I won't have to worry about using lactose free milk anymore, I assume.

[ta5]

I have a Luvele yogurt maker that I set at 100 degrees F for 36 hours. I've read multiple places that the milk should be heated to 180 degrees, but I don't think the purpose is sterilization. Maybe someone else can chime in, because I don't know the technical reason.

 

It's both for sterilization and for thickening:

 

To make yogurt, milk is first heated to 180 degrees Fahrenheit for 30 minutes to denature the whey proteins; this allows the proteins to form a more stable gel. The yogurt is pasteurized before adding the cultures. The pasteurization process kills any pathogens that can spoil milk as well as to eliminate potential competitors of the active cultures. After milk pasteurization, the milk is cooled down to 108 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature for optimal growth of yogurt starter cultures.

https://scienceandfo...ence-of-yogurt/

 

Standard methods for making yogurt call for the milk to be heated and cooled before culturing, and different temperatures create different styles of yogurt. Yogurt made from milk kept below 170 ºF  / 77 ºC is thinner and tastes fresh, a little fruity and more tart, while yogurt made from milk held at 195 ºF / 90 ºC for 10 minutes is noticeably thicker and tastes less tart and somewhat creamy/nutty/eggy.

https://brodandtaylo...f-great-yogurt/

 

Here's a nice list of pasteurization temperatures and times. It's anywhere from 145F x 30 min to 280F x 2 sec.

[Skyisred]

I had the weirdest experience with the yoghurt. I made it with coconut milk and gelatin and sugar , sterilized everything well, fermented for well over 24h (closer to 48 probably).
Eating the yogurt made me SO INCREDIBLY TIRED! All day, I was living in a fog. Couldn’t do anything. I didn’t realize it was the yogurt at first, and it just kept getting worse. After 3 or 4 days I tossed the yogurt and the tiredness went away.
So this is second negative experience from people in this thread. Any suggestions what would be the mechanism of my symptoms? I’ve made yoghurt with same technique before with no problem.
This makes me question - do we know how good is their quality control? Are we sure we are getting what’s listed on the box?
Not related to gastrus, but there was a study on other probiotics showing huge discrepancies between label and contents.
I also once sent a yogurt from a different probiotic to a lab, and results showed 50% being unlisted bacteria.

Edited by Skyisred, 20 May 2019 - 06:39 AM.

[sdxl]

GOS is one of the high bars in the picture, and much higher than FOS. Dr. Davis likes GOS too. So I went looking for some GOS, both to take myself and to use in making yogurt. There are surprisingly few GOS products. There's a bulk powder from China on ebay, which is maybe good or maybe not - hard to know. Klare Labs sells a powder called "Galactomune" with GOS but also Beta-Glucan, which I don't know if I want (and Dr. Davis doesn't like Beta-Glucan either).

 

There's a product called Bimuno that has GOS, Lactose, Glucose, and Galactose. According to the chart, Reuteri 6475 should love this. It has 4 out of the 6 high bars (the other two being Sucrose and Raffinose) that 6475 grows fastest in.

 

I would normally avoid the sugars, especially Lactose, but each 3.65g serving (2.9g GOS) has only 1g of sugars. 

 

Using prebiotics to grow bacteria in vitro seems pretty wasteful to me. Glucose is better and a lot cheaper. Prebiotics should be used where their selectivity has an advantage, like your gut.

[sdxl]

I had the weirdest experience with the yoghurt. I made it with coconut milk and gelatin and sugar , sterilized everything well, fermented for well over 24h (closer to 48 probably).
Eating the yogurt made me SO INCREDIBLY TIRED! All day, I was living in a fog. Couldn’t do anything. I didn’t realize it was the yogurt at first, and it just kept getting worse. After 3 or 4 days I tossed the yogurt and the tiredness went away.
So this is second negative experience from people in this thread. Any suggestions what would be the mechanism of my symptoms? I’ve made yoghurt with same technique before with no problem.
This makes me question - do we know how good is their quality control? Are we sure we are getting what’s listed on the box?
Not related to gastrus, but there was a study on other probiotics showing huge discrepancies between label and contents.
I also once sent a yogurt from a different probiotic to a lab, and results showed 50% being unlisted bacteria.

 

Sugar (sucrose) looks like a bad idea to grow Gastrus on. In theory you should get a huge overgrowth of 17938 over 6475. Try replacing the sugar with glucose.

 

You should have sent the probiotic to a lab, not only the yogurt you made from it. Who knows what bacteria you may have added.

[ta5]

Using prebiotics to grow bacteria in vitro seems pretty wasteful to me. Glucose is better and a lot cheaper. Prebiotics should be used where their selectivity has an advantage, like your gut.

I agree. Since Bimuno is so expensive, I’ll take it separately but not use it to make yogurt. I am hopeful GOS is the best prebiotic to take to encourage Reuteri.

[ta5]

Do we know what 17938 grows best in?
The chart linked above only show 55730 and 6475.