448 replies to this topic

[airplanepeanuts]

I have ordered from the italian pharmacy also, will let you know if I get any results.

[Curtiss Harris]

Used Bio Gaia 3 weeks now.   I'd like to say I've got all day power and motivation now but that would be unscientific as a conclusion. 

[uekte]

Used Bio Gaia 3 weeks now.   I'd like to say I've got all day power and motivation now but that would be unscientific as a conclusion. 

 

Would be great if you could elaborate on your experience.

[uekte]

BioGaia Gastrus is now available on their U.K webstore.

 

http://www.biogaia.c...iogaia-gastrus/

[fntms]

I have made 3l of 'Gastrus' yogurt with just 2 tablets and no other probiotics (I used to add one tab from Jarrow Gr8dophilus, the taste was definitely different, much nicer tbh. The yogurt is harder to make with just the Gastrus, it took about 36h this time vs less than 24h with the other probiotics). That's a pretty good return on investment...
No results to report yet apart from obvious gut health (more noticeable than with other probiotics). Maybe slightly less inflammation also?

[airplanepeanuts]

I used it for 4 weeks now. I think improve energy or robustness (word from one of the studies) quite a bit.

But one should keep in mind that the title of this thread alone is a really good setup for a strong placebo effect.

[Heisok]

I have made 3l of 'Gastrus' yogurt with just 2 tablets and no other probiotics (I used to add one tab from Jarrow Gr8dophilus, the taste was definitely different, much nicer tbh. The yogurt is harder to make with just the Gastrus, it took about 36h this time vs less than 24h with the other probiotics). That's a pretty good return on investment...
No results to report yet apart from obvious gut health (more noticeable than with other probiotics). Maybe slightly less inflammation also?

 

Thanks for the information. For my last 2 batches, I used several ounces from the prior batch. They made yogurt quicker than from scratch. I went 20 instead of my usual 24 hours. Could be worth a try.

Edited by Heisok, 31 May 2016 - 05:20 PM.

[RobbieG]

Sorry, I am a little new at this but wanted to try growing my own batch.  I have a few questions:  

• Do you use off the shelf yogurt to start and then add the probiotics?  
• Do you mixed the yogurt with milk and then add?  
• Do you let it sit at room temperature during the incubation?  

Any additional details regarding your process are greatly appreciated.  

[aconita]

I attempt to answer this question even if I never experimented with this kind of bacteria strain.

 

Simply add the probiotic to plain milk and keep it between 25 and 30 degree, better in the dark.

 

For the next batches just add to plain milk some of the yogurt made (now that yogurt is a bacteria culture with the desired strain in it).

 

If and when it starts to not work very well anymore start again from the probiotic (it might depend from the bacteria strain, some do well while some don't reproduce vigorously enough and after a while they get too weak needing replacement with fresh bacteria).

[RWhigham]

The 3 strains of bacteria normally used to make yogurt are synergistic--all 3 strains grow fastest when combined together.

I assume the synergism may also work when adding Gastrus.

 

I use 1 packet of "Yogourmet" starter and 6 tablets of Gastrus ground up in a stainless steel mortar and pestle. I use 2L of "milk" (half-and-half is better, heavy cream with some added whey is even better).  If you always use your last yogurt batch to start the next batch, eventually  an undesirable bacteria will creep in. I'd rather pay for a packet of "Yogourmet" than take a chance.

 

You can make a high fat yogurt with a thick Greek-yogurt-like consistency by using half-and-half instead of milk. 

 

Since the milk proteins, casein and whey, are insulinogenic (I like to keep my insulin low), I like to go even further and use heavy cream to eliminate the casein and minimize the whey, but you cannot make yogurt from just heavy cream. Yogurt requires whey, but not casein. To make yogurt from heavy cream, just add a heaping tablespoon of organic whey to each liter of cream. You have to mix it very well, preferably with a stick blender.

 

If you omit the whey, you will get creme fraiche instead of yogurt.  Creme fraische is delicious, but  it does not keep as well as yogurt. I like to make 2L at a time, and I can't use up that much creme fraische before it spoils.

 

I like to consume my yogurt as a probiotic supplement--I only consume 1 heaping tsp at a time, sometimes several times a day. 2L lasts a long time.

 

 

[RWhigham]

How I make yogurt:

I have a Eurocusine 2L yogurt maker.

    It has a 2 L plastic tub that fits in a plastic housing with a heater and thermostat. The ideal temperature is 105 F. I had to disassemble mine and move the thermostat from the side to the bottom to make it heat up enough. Mine gets too hot now if its sitting on a cool counter. I get just the right temperature by putting it on a pot holder. Some reviewers got units that were too hot. They added in-line lamp dimmers to adjust the temperature down.

 

I find it most convenient to use a container that won't break when cooling it off from 190 F to 105 F in a sink of cold water. I bought a glass container that fits in the Eurocuisine, and a 2 L Pyrex measuring cup for the heating and cooling (to avoid using plastic), but I ended up not bothering with them. It is less messing around to just use the plastic container.  I like the plastic container that came with my Eurocuisine just fine. I bought an extra so I can start my next batch while the container with the last batch is still in the refrigerator.

 

1. Sterilize your "milk" by heating it to 190 F and holding it there for 10 min. Many people don't do this because its a bother, but it ensures consistency.

    I add two liters of heavy cream to my plastic "Eurocuisine" container.

    I put the container in a large plastic vegetable washing sieve (which lets me pick it up when its hot) and put it in the microwave.

    My microwave takes 12 minutes to heat it to 190 F (from the refrigerator). I stop it at 10 min and stir it.

    Once it reaches 190 F, I turn the microwave on for 30 sec after 2.5 min, 5 min, and 7.5 min. This keeps it above 190 F for 10 min.

 

2. Cool it down to 105 F. (It will kill the starter if its too hot).

    I put it in a sink filled with cold water. It takes about 25 min to cool down.

    I skim the "cheese" off the top with a fork and throw it away.

 

3. While the "milk" is cooling, prepare the starter.

    I grind up a packet (6 tablets) of Gastrus in a stainless steel mortar and pestle and mix in 1 packet of "Yogourmet" starter.

    Transfer the powder to a two cup measuring cup for the initial mixing.

    Add 2 heaping tbsp of organic whey powder (This is not necessary with milk or half-and-half, but essential with heavy cream)

   Mix with a spoon.

 

4. As soon as the "milk" is cool to 105 F, add a cup to the starter powder and blend with a stick blender. Add another cup and blend some more.

    Then add the smooth mixture from the measuring cup into the "Eurocuisine" container and blend again with the stick blender.

    (The smoothness and texture of the result is greatly enhanced by using a stick blender.)

 

5. Now keep it at 105 F for about 30 hr. I use my "Eurocuisine" yogurt maker, but any other method will do.

    I keep the container lid loosely over the container. I drain the condensation off the inside of the lid several times while its fermenting.

 

6. After it looks done, refrigerate it overnight - the texture will finish firming in the refrigerator.

   

Edited by RWhigham, 01 June 2016 - 11:32 PM.

[aconita]

Some bacteria are synergic but most are in competition with each other, unless you really know very well what you are doing the outcomes of mixing different bacteria strains is unlikely to yield desirable results or at least very unpredictable, no way for the average user to know who survived taking control over the others.

 

If you take one spoon at once (but even 2 or 3 would not make any difference) I seriously doubt the insulogenic activity of proteins contained in milk would be of any relevance.

 

Taste and consistency are different matters than probiotic activity, bacteria needs sugar to live, in our case that is lactose, all the rest is details.

 

Yogurt doesn't contain lactose and it is usually well tolerated by lactose intolerant subjects because the bacteria in it consume all or almost all of it.

 

Skimmed, partly skimmed or full cream matters very little to bacteria, it just matters to your taste.

 

If you aim to an healthy reproducing alive bacteria population supply it with abundant lactose and replace it before it runs out since a starving bacteria population is not desirable and dangerous since wouldn't be able to keep the territory against unwanted intruders (pathogens).

 

Keep in mind that not all bacteria strains do reproduce easily and well under "home made" conditions, some bacteria strains are "engineered" in such a way they are unable to reproduce for obvious commercial reasons.

 

The only way to asses that if you aren't a biologist with an equipped laboratory is to use just the strain you want to test in plain milk (it doesn't matter if full cream or skimmed) and see what is going to happen in a day or two, if you get some sort of yogurt you are fine otherwise what is going on is that your bacteria are dead.

 

Be aware that the yogurt you'll get not necessarily and actually unlikely will resemble the commercial yogurt you are used to, it might be unpleasant or weird but that is totally irrelevant in terms of probiotic activity and value.

 

105F is about 40C that is a bit too hot in my knowledge since most bacteria would die above 30C, lower temperature means slower process but guarantee alive bacteria.

 

I might suggest to buy a fish tank thermostated heater unit for a few bucks (on eBay from China), those little self contained units are great since you can set the desired temperature and not worry about it, place the unit in a container with water and another smaller container in the water as well with the milk and culture in it.

 

Water will get to the set temperature and gently keep the milk within the optimal range. 

 

Heating milk before adding the culture might ensure no other competing bacteria already in milk which survived pasteurization will get in the way, in most cases it doesn't really matter much but with a new strain you'll never know how shy it might be.

 

 

[hotbit]

@aconita
 

...105F is about 40C that is a bit too hot in my knowledge since most bacteria would die above 30C...

 

 

There are trillions of bacteria living in our guts, thus 37C does not kill them at all. For traditional yoghurt most people use 42C (~105F) as it is close to optimum for thermophillus  and  acidophillus. 

I have not experimented with gastrus, but researched quite a bit. I found that optimal temp. in the lab set up is 37C. To enhance reuteri 6475 growth over the other strain a spoon of glucose added to the mixture should do the trick. Apparently different strains like different sugars and glucose promotes reuteri 6475 growth over the other reuteri strain found in the tablets.

Reusing old batch as a starter is also a good practice. In fact your taste will tell in most cases whether you get a spoiled product.  After 5-10 batches you may go with a new starter to stay on the safe side.

I am cultivated yoghurt based on gr8dophillus and add some coconut oil. It forms a thin layer on top and may prevent  from oxidation / spoiling (I use small jars).

Without a proper lab tests we are mostly guessing and do yoghurt art not science. We have to start somewhere, though

@RWhigham
Informative, quality feedback

[hotbit]

PS Sources (can't edit my post above):

 

The optimum growth temperature for L. lactis and L. acidophilus was found to be 37 to 40°C while for S. cremoris was 37°C.

http://scialert.net/....481.488&org=11

 

C h u n g et al. (24) established beyond dispute that L. reuteri in ananaerobic mixed culture with E. coli forms reuterin at pH 5 to 9 and temperature from 4 to 45°C, optimum being 37°C.

 

https://www.google.c...0,d.ZGg&cad=rja

 

[....]

Also Østlie et al. (2004) used the approach to add an extra source of peptides, this time from tryptone, to support the growth of different probiotic bacteria in milk. They found that L. reuteri had the fastest growth of all bacteria tested for temperatures between 37°C and 45°C, which is considered as good temperatures for the growth of L. reuteri in other mediums.

 

http://stud.epsilon....on_m_130828.pdf

 

 

Edited by hotbit, 02 June 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[aconita]

Nice to know that reuteri does well at 37C !

 

By any means once the optimal temperature for the desired bacteria strain is known it is best to achieve that temperature, the issue is that often the optimal temperature is quite close to the survival upper limit, if the thermostatation is not very accurate it is easy to get a that little bit too high which kills the culture, a lower than optimal temperature doesn't harm the bacteria therefore if in doubt a bit lower is safer.

 

The fact that in the gut microbioma obviously does well at 37C doesn't prevent kefir bacteria to die off above 30C, for example, as many other bacteria do.

 

This brings back the discussion about probiotics actually reaching alive the gut or not, probably even those able to pass alive the gastric environment are not going to survive much longer anyway.

 

One hypothesis is that the DNA stays intact anyway and can be utilized by our microbioma in a positive way, which seems to me a quite reasonable explanation.

 

 

[Heisok]

Great thread. Higher temperature can do some interesting things to those that survive it. Would not incubate at high temperature as it would fail with dairy. I have also read that some strains do have benefits even after they have been killed. (Sorry no references. ) I have also read that with some strains, that including the supernatant, growth medium in this case Yogurt, can have benefits beyond simply taking the isolated bacterium. 

 

  "Safety and stability aspects"

L. reuteri has the most extensive safety assessment record of any probiotic strain. A number of studies conducted both in vivo and in vitro indicate that L. reutei is safe for human consumption, even in large amounts [38,40]. However, as is the case for all other species of LAB, plasmids can be found in some strains of L. reuteri [15,41,42], and some of these plasmids have been shown to encode for antibiotic resistance genes [42]. According to the European Food Safety Authority, probiotics should not contain known antibiotic resistance traits. L. reuteri ATCC 55730 is a commercially available probiotic strain which has been found to carry potentially transferable resistance traits for tetracycline and lincomycin. Therefore, it has been replaced by L. reuteri DSM 17938, a strain where the two resistance plasmids have been removed without losing any probiotic characteristics [42].

Probiotic strains must be able to resist any adverse conditions encountered during industrial production in order to survive [43]. L. reuteri is sensitive to heat, and therefore, freeze-drying is commonly used for maintaining the stability of L. reuteri. Subjecting L. reuteri to a higher fermentation temperature (47°C) or a neutral pH (pH 6.7) has been shown to increase the survival of L. reuteri during subsequent freeze-drying"

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4423586/

Edited by Heisok, 03 June 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[lemon_]

whats the point of taking the tablet if it does not survive in your belly etc

[RWhigham]

Advantage of non-homogenized dairy (whipping cream and sour cream) -  compared to butter, half-and-half, and homogenized milk

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26016870  "Potential role of milk fat globule membrane in modulating plasma lipoproteins, gene expression, and cholesterol metabolism in humans: a randomized study"

 

The milk fat globule membranes (MFGM) are largely intact in whipping cream.

Butter and homogenized dairy have their fat globules busted up from mechanical processing/homogenization.

 

Study:

40g of fat from either whipping cream or butter were given to two groups of over-weight subjects for 8 weeks

(The whipping cream was pasteurized (4 s at 95C) but not homogenized. The MFGM's survived pasteurization largely intact).

 

Results: (Table 2)

Butter group:  non-HDL cholesterol increased an average of 0.24 mmol/L = 9.2 mg/dL.

Whipping cream group:  non-HDL cholesterol decreased an average of -0.14 mmol/L = -5.4 mg/dL

 

What I learned:

1. On a low-carb high-fat (LCHF) diet replacing butter with whipping cream and sour cream can lower your non-HDL cholesterol by 14.6 mg/dL on average.

2. It's not desirable to re-pasteurize my whipping cream (when making yogurt) to minimize damage to the MFGM's. 

3. Always try to find "cream-on-top" non-homogenized milk

 

Incidentally, Kaiser Permanente recently quit showing an LDL-C healthy range on their lipid test report (amazing that they are up-to-date so soon).

(It seems that LDL-C and CVD risk were not correlated in the CTEP inhibitor trials which were stopped prematurely after showing 0 benefit)

 

Edited by RWhigham, 12 June 2016 - 08:04 PM.

[RWhigham]

They also measured Apo-B:

 

Butter group:  Apo-B increased by 0.08 g/L = 8 mg/dL

Cream group: Apo-B decreased by -0.02g/L = -2 mg/dL

This shows that the LDL particle count (LDL-P) went down along with the LDL-C.

Edited by RWhigham, 12 June 2016 - 11:23 PM.

[hotbit]

L. reuteri can reverse autism-like behaviour in mice:

 

http://www.eurekaler...p-ass061016.php

 

Full article:

http://www.cell.com/...8674(16)30730-9

 

They don't say what particular strain they used, though.

[sdxl]

L. reuteri can reverse autism-like behaviour in mice:

 

http://www.eurekaler...p-ass061016.php

 

Full article:

http://www.cell.com/...8674(16)30730-9

 

They don't say what particular strain they used, though.

 

 

They do list the strains used for this study.

 

 

Lactobacillus reuteri MM4-1A (ATCC-PTA-6475) and Lactobacillus johnsonii (ATCC 33200) were cultured anaerobically in MRS broth in a 90% N₂, 5% CO₂, 5% H₂ environment.

[fntms]

This time I made my 'Gastrus' 3l organic yogurt with a couple of table spoons from the previous yogurt (which was about 3 weeks 'old' and had acquired pinkish hair on the top) as a starter and it did solidify much quicker than with the tabs, ie less than 10hrs. The returns on the initial investment are simply amazing... thanks for the tip!

[hotbit]

This time I made my 'Gastrus' 3l organic yogurt with a couple of table spoons from the previous yogurt (which was about 3 weeks 'old' and had acquired pinkish hair on the top) as a starter and it did solidify much quicker than with the tabs, ie less than 10hrs. The returns on the initial investment are simply amazing... thanks for the tip!

 

Those pinkish hair do not sound good. I think best results you will achieve using up to one week old batch, 3 weeks is a bit old, especially in home conditions, as unwanted microbes can develop, also yoghurt bacteria tend to get weaker and die off as time is passing by. 

 

Good luck with experimenting and keep us informed

[hermetic]

I've been taking the biogaia gastris for just over a month, and have noticed absolutely no positive impact at all. 

 

None.

 

I initially, out of excitement, ordered 4 boxes, and had been consuming on average, 2-4 lozenges a day. 

 

The count for this particular strain is really really low. 200,000. Not sure what effect this would have really had at such a low concentration.

 

Not sure why they did not just release enteric coated capsules or tablets, instead of lozenges, loaded with synthetic sweeteners. 

 

Waste of time and money in my opinion. Until a more potent encapsulated product is released (or ever will be released). 

[hermetic]

Just to make you all aware, sucralose is added to their lozengers.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18800291

 

I've also read information circulating around about the (negative) impact that sucralose and other artificial sweeteners can have on gut bacteria. 

 

Seem a bit contradictory to add it to their 'gastris' product. 

[Keizo]

It only says isomalt, mandarin aroma and mint aroma on mine (as far as sweet things are concerned).

Edited by Keizo, 12 July 2016 - 04:14 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I'm just learning of this product, what are the reports back from people using this for more than 60 days?

[hermetic]

I have emailed them today, requesting a full ingredient list. So will await their response. 

 

My packaging reads ''Filler (Isomalt), Lactobacillus reuteri DSM 17938 and  Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC PTA 6475, hydrogenated palm oil, peppermint flavour, menthol flavour, peppermint oil and sweetener (sucralose)''

[hermetic]

I've been taking the biogaia gastris for just over a month, and have noticed absolutely no positive impact at all. 

 

None.

 

I initially, out of excitement, ordered 4 boxes, and had been consuming on average, 2-4 lozenges a day. 

 

The count for this particular strain is really really low. 200,000. Not sure what effect this would have really had at such a low concentration.

 

Not sure why they did not just release enteric coated capsules or tablets, instead of lozenges, loaded with synthetic sweeteners. 

 

Waste of time and money in my opinion. Until a more potent encapsulated product is released (or ever will be released). 

 

 

Sorry I meant 200 million.

[Heisok]

Thanks Hermetic,

 

Maybe they changed the sweetener. Mine was also without any sweetener other than isomalt. It did list "mint flavoring" and "mandarin flavoring"  Thinking about those, they could have pretty much multiple ingredients, synthetic sweeteners included, to make up "flavoring" . Personally, I do not like the taste, and will only use them in yogurt which I make.

 

Please let us know what you hear from them.

 

Nate-2004,

 

You have been very nice on these forums, and I wanted to reply even though I can not give you actionable information. Sorry. I have been consuming the yogurt which I make for 6 months now. I have no idea what the effective dose of the L. Reuteri is in my case. I will continue consuming it as I have been very resilient during this time period, but take many nutrients, and eat multiple types of probiotic yogurt which I make every week or so. I have some lab work to have drawn sometime in the next 2 months. If I think that there is a big change one way or another in my hormones, I will report it.

 

Edited by Heisok, 13 July 2016 - 11:25 PM.