161 replies to this topic

[eon]

which choline? bitartrate?

[Ames]

I have four 2'x'2 boxes full of supplements that I will never take again (mostly). It would take too long to list the contents of those boxes. I have a very small box, about 10"x10" of supplements/noots/meds that have made the cut. At any one time, I'm generally taking one or two of them at max with others taken PRN. I don't regret the journey, even though it has been expensive, because I can now mostly cut through the hype and I would have never found what currently works without having worked my way through the gamut of noots/supps that I have. Although, some noots have set me back neurologically speaking. 98% of noots/supps have short or long term undesirable side effects as far as I'm concerned. I now stick mostly with a strategy of whole system mitochondrial enhancement with occasional supplementation toward NGF promotion. I'm waiting for the anxiety reduction holy grail, although perhaps I should just hit the weights. Supps/noots that show lifespan increase in research are always of interest not because I am necessarily interested in increasing my lifespan, but because I hold such results to be a reliable proxy for a high benefit/low significant side effect ratio as well as long-term safety. I'm almost always trying new substances.

Edited by golgi1, 08 August 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[Ames]

Glucosamine is ineffective, by the way. The human body produces a magnitude 10000 more glucosamine than what a standard dose contains, it is therefore highly unlikely that ~0.01% more glucosamine will do you any good.

Ineffective for what? N-acetlyglucosamine has a profound mitochondrial effect for me. See my post above, and notice how I said that I have four large boxes of supplements that I don't take, a small box of green-lit supps/noots, and that I take 1-2 at any one time. A form of glucosamine is currently my core supplement. I started taking N-acetylglucosmaine after getting a recommendation for it on another forum for a significant issue that I have. After I was taking it for one month, the research was released regarding its life extension effects. The research made sense to me given the effect that NAG was having on me. It reduces my neuro-inflammatory and neuromuscular symptoms dramatically, exerts a striking effect in its ability to reduce the amount of sleep that I need, and has increased my cardiovascular stamina to a level that I could have never predicted. I currently weigh 240 lbs and used to get out of breath going up and down the stairs. Recently, I walked a 200 yard 15 degree incline in the summer heat, in boat shoes, without getting out of breath. I've accomplished no training that would have conferred this cardiovascular tone. For me, stating that it "works well" would be an understatement.

Edited by golgi1, 08 August 2014 - 02:59 AM.

[krillin]

 

I guess it depends which version. From what I understand glucosamine sulfate is effective, which is why I take it. Not with those other stuff like MSM and Chondroitin. I think I read that glucosamine depletes as we age plus it's good for the joints?

 

Glucosamine is ineffective, by the way. The human body produces a magnitude 10000 more glucosamine than what a standard dose contains, it is therefore highly unlikely that ~0.01% more glucosamine will do you any good.

 

Here's the article that I based my opinion off of, it does a great job at elucidating the current knowlege of the effectiveness of chondroitin and glucosamine

 

http://www.scienceba...ne-really-work/

 

 

The blog actually says that the glucosamine dose is 1/1000 to 1/10,000 of the body's total stock, which is a meaningless comparison. It should be comparing dose to daily production. (The calcium RDA is 1/1000 of the body's stock too.)

 

In mice, glucosamine at 10 g/kg diet (started at 100 weeks old) stimulates mitochondrial biogenesis and slightly increases maximum lifespan. I think that's a 5.7 g/day human dose assuming 10 mg/kg diet = 1 mg/kg body weight and a metabolic scaling factor of 12.3. BHA or NAC abolish the effect. PMID: 24714520

 

In humans, epidemiology finds it associated with decreased risks of colorectal cancer (only if overweight) PMID: 23529472, lung cancer PMID: 19423520, and all-cause mortality PMID: 22828954. (These papers also found positive effects for chondroitin, fish oil, MSM, and St. John's wort, and a negative effect for garlic pills.)

[krillin]

The book is Smart Drugs & Nutrients. Here's the quote regarding COQ10 and Idebenone...

 

"COQ10 has troubled some researchers because of its ability to metabolize into a toxic molecule with a highly reactive free radical. Idebenone seems to have all the benefits of COQ10, yet it does not create such a reactive metabolite (Pearson and Shaw, 1989). 

 

The book is old and perhaps information changed since? Or perhaps COQ10 has been made better?

Idebenone fumbles electrons more readily than CoQ10 so it is probably more dangerous. PMID: 11976197 Furthermore, here is an old post in which I quote a case study where idebenone could not treat a CoQ10 deficiency, while CoQ10 could. The explanation was that the cellular CoQ10 transport system only works if the molecule has an isoprenoid tail, and idebenone's tail is a saturated straight chain.

 

I take CoQ10 for gum health and endurance: the effects were rapid and remarkable. It could also prevent aging if one of the causes is damaged mitochondria -> superoxide in the blood -> oxidized LDL -> damage throughout body. See another old post for details.

[krillin]

300mg is P5P (B6) is too much for daily use except in rare medical conditions. This is a good example of why you cannot trust supplement companies to provide safe doses of a product and advertise it properly, even if the company is very good with the quality and purity of the product. They cater to fads and ignorant consumers, if something is all the rage then they will sell it regardless of how little we about the chemical (like astaxanthin). If people think more is better, they will sell people large doses if they can get away with it. You can easily find vitamins D & E in 5000 IU capsules and larger, this is way too much for the average consumer to take daily. 5000mcg biotin. 500mg niacin. 800mcg chromium picolinate. 800mcg folic acid. 400+mg gingko biloba. 600mg alpha lipoic acid (too much to take all at once, should be spread out over the day). I forget the green tea doses that damage the liver and kidneys. Liquid iodine for drinking in the milligrams ... omg. And on it goes. It's very important to get your information from more scientific sources before buying a supplement.

 

5000 IU is a common vitamin D dose for those who titrate it to 35-40 ng/ml. Niacin is taken in gram quantities for cholesterol reduction. Alpha lipoic acid is supposed to be taken in one dose per day, since it's used for creating hormetic stresses that flip gene switches before it's quickly washed out of the system. See this old post and this one. In this Alzheimer's study, ALA was 600 mg once a day. PMID: 24077434
 

[Flex]

 

Glucosamine is ineffective, by the way. The human body produces a magnitude 10000 more glucosamine than what a standard dose contains, it is therefore highly unlikely that ~0.01% more glucosamine will do you any good.

Ineffective for what? N-acetlyglucosamine has a profound mitochondrial effect for me. See my post above, and notice how I said that I have four large boxes of supplements that I don't take, a small box of green-lit supps/noots, and that I take 1-2 at any one time. A form of glucosamine is currently my core supplement. I started taking N-acetylglucosmaine after getting a recommendation for it on another forum for a significant issue that I have. After I was taking it for one month, the research was released regarding its life extension effects. The research made sense to me given the effect that NAG was having on me. It reduces my neuro-inflammatory and neuromuscular symptoms dramatically, exerts a striking effect in its ability to reduce the amount of sleep that I need, and has increased my cardiovascular stamina to a level that I could have never predicted. I currently weigh 240 lbs and used to get out of breath going up and down the stairs. Recently, I walked a 200 yard 15 degree incline in the summer heat, in boat shoes, without getting out of breath. I've accomplished no training that would have conferred this cardiovascular tone. For me, stating that it "works well" would be an understatement.

 

 

I´ve experienced such effects from Carnosine but cant compare it, because I´ve never tried glucosamine.

Btw. I dont know if You heard it allready that, glucosamine can supposedly cause or increase the risk of diabetes.

 

Too much glucosamine can cause the death of pancreatic cells, increase diabetes risk, researchers find

http://www.scienceda...01027111349.htm

[Ames]

Glucosamine is ineffective, by the way. The human body produces a magnitude 10000 more glucosamine than what a standard dose contains, it is therefore highly unlikely that ~0.01% more glucosamine will do you any good.

Ineffective for what? N-acetlyglucosamine has a profound mitochondrial effect for me. See my post above, and notice how I said that I have four large boxes of supplements that I don't take, a small box of green-lit supps/noots, and that I take 1-2 at any one time. A form of glucosamine is currently my core supplement. I started taking N-acetylglucosmaine after getting a recommendation for it on another forum for a significant issue that I have. After I was taking it for one month, the research was released regarding its life extension effects. The research made sense to me given the effect that NAG was having on me. It reduces my neuro-inflammatory and neuromuscular symptoms dramatically, exerts a striking effect in its ability to reduce the amount of sleep that I need, and has increased my cardiovascular stamina to a level that I could have never predicted. I currently weigh 240 lbs and used to get out of breath going up and down the stairs. Recently, I walked a 200 yard 15 degree incline in the summer heat, in boat shoes, without getting out of breath. I've accomplished no training that would have conferred this cardiovascular tone. For me, stating that it "works well" would be an understatement.

I´ve experienced such effects from Carnosine but cant compare it, because I´ve never tried glucosamine.
Btw. I dont know if You heard it allready that, glucosamine can supposedly cause or increase the risk of diabetes.

Too much glucosamine can cause the death of pancreatic cells, increase diabetes risk, researchers find
http://www.scienceda...01027111349.htm

Yes, that's true (although, I didn't read the link that you posted). I looked into this when I first started supplementing with it. With glucosamine, insofar as negative side effects are concerned, its all about the dose. From memory, I believe the dose that was required to cause islet cell death was over 7 grams per day for an average sized man. My dose is 1.5 grams (down from 2 grams) every 5-7 days. I was dosing 2 grams every 3 days for a few months, with little problem other than needing to take an occasional break.

Though, I can readily perceive its effects on insulin and how they could go negative quickly. Drinking alcohol on a day that you take 2 grams will lead to very little productive sleep, from what I gather to be sugar disregulation. Its marked effects on sleep, in general, and its overall potent effect have led to to refine my dosing schedule to what it now is. I tend to get the most benefit with the least side effects on this schedule.

My perception of the mechanism is that such intense pancreas specific/sugar regulation effects are necessary for its life extension effect, but that this is also the reason that it is potentially dangerous. It's a bit like taking a small dose of poison that in larger doses would hurt you badly, but in smaller doses makes your system stronger. There isn't anything else that I've found that has such lasting effect. Though, I haven't yet tried C60, NSI-189, resveratrol (due to some poor long-term anecdotes that I've read) or any of the other trending research chemicals. Glucosamine has made me a big fan of mitochondrial intervention. In terms of true life extension, my hypothesis is that most molecules that can confer such an effect will work through a hormetic mechanism that will make them de facto dangerous in higher quantities.

Edited by golgi1, 09 August 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[normalizing]

 

The book is Smart Drugs & Nutrients. Here's the quote regarding COQ10 and Idebenone...

 

"COQ10 has troubled some researchers because of its ability to metabolize into a toxic molecule with a highly reactive free radical. Idebenone seems to have all the benefits of COQ10, yet it does not create such a reactive metabolite (Pearson and Shaw, 1989). 

 

The book is old and perhaps information changed since? Or perhaps COQ10 has been made better?

Idebenone fumbles electrons more readily than CoQ10 so it is probably more dangerous. PMID: 11976197 Furthermore, here is an old post in which I quote a case study where idebenone could not treat a CoQ10 deficiency, while CoQ10 could. The explanation was that the cellular CoQ10 transport system only works if the molecule has an isoprenoid tail, and idebenone's tail is a saturated straight chain.

 

I take CoQ10 for gum health and endurance: the effects were rapid and remarkable. It could also prevent aging if one of the causes is damaged mitochondria -> superoxide in the blood -> oxidized LDL -> damage throughout body. See another old post for details.

 

 

you felt rapid and remarkable effects from coq10? ive tried around 5 different brands in various times, none of them i felt anything positive from even in big doses that i usually go for whenever i believe something isnt working. perhaps i assume, just like curcumin having so many patents for various absorption rates, so does coq10 have many different patents on the market with various addons for better absorption and you likely took a good quality supplement?

 

 

[krillin]

It was plain old Puritan's Pride CoQ10 softgels at 10 mg/day. I think the delivery vehicle was soybean oil. The effects increased up to 60 mg, and I settled on 100 mg for simplicity. I can't tell the difference between CoQ10, CoQ10+limonene, and ubiquinol.

[krillin]

 

 

Glucosamine is ineffective, by the way. The human body produces a magnitude 10000 more glucosamine than what a standard dose contains, it is therefore highly unlikely that ~0.01% more glucosamine will do you any good.

Ineffective for what? N-acetlyglucosamine has a profound mitochondrial effect for me. See my post above, and notice how I said that I have four large boxes of supplements that I don't take, a small box of green-lit supps/noots, and that I take 1-2 at any one time. A form of glucosamine is currently my core supplement. I started taking N-acetylglucosmaine after getting a recommendation for it on another forum for a significant issue that I have. After I was taking it for one month, the research was released regarding its life extension effects. The research made sense to me given the effect that NAG was having on me. It reduces my neuro-inflammatory and neuromuscular symptoms dramatically, exerts a striking effect in its ability to reduce the amount of sleep that I need, and has increased my cardiovascular stamina to a level that I could have never predicted. I currently weigh 240 lbs and used to get out of breath going up and down the stairs. Recently, I walked a 200 yard 15 degree incline in the summer heat, in boat shoes, without getting out of breath. I've accomplished no training that would have conferred this cardiovascular tone. For me, stating that it "works well" would be an understatement.

 

 

I´ve experienced such effects from Carnosine but cant compare it, because I´ve never tried glucosamine.

Btw. I dont know if You heard it allready that, glucosamine can supposedly cause or increase the risk of diabetes.

 

Too much glucosamine can cause the death of pancreatic cells, increase diabetes risk, researchers find

http://www.scienceda...01027111349.htm

 

 

I think this is the full text, and the lowest concentration I could find that they used was 1 mM. The mice in the life extension study had 2 microM, so we should have some margin of safety.

 

[redFishBlueFish]

st john wort

ginkgo biloba

 

I took both at the same time and separate, did absolutely nothing for me. No added benefits, no noticeable health benefits, no prevention or anything. The stuff I am taking now I won't know won't benefit me until I take my wellness test and mostly building a reservoir for when my noots zap'em.

 

Edited by redFishBlueFish, 12 August 2014 - 03:50 AM.

[eon]

ginko and st. johns I have tried. Those aren't exactly pyrrilidone derived nootropics (like the racetams), which are highly effective. ginko and st. johns are what I call over-the-counter. LOL. ginko works cause it gave me headaches. st. john's it's whatever.

 

To those who still take COQ10, wasn't there a bad news about its use a few weeks ago? I don't take it never have since I read a book regarding its toxicity of sort. I take its other derivative which is idebenone.

 

OK so I'm tired of eating yogurt to get my "healthy bacterias". This is just too much sugar and calories. Would taking a probiotic supplement be best then? What brands or doses? I have never tried it but I just read that it is good for weight loss and the gut. Possibly the reason why people store fat is because not enough healthy bacteria in the gut. I'm not familiar with what is supposed to be a good dose, brand or type of probiotic I should try out. Give me some recommendations. I'm only about 160 pounds but could live with no belly fat though. I was even down to 140 pounds, I looked skinny but with belly fat. Weird.

[redFishBlueFish]

eon,

 

I've actually been looking this stuff up because I want to solve my mood and GERD issues. The thing to look for is multiple strains, count, and make sure they are not all dairy derived. Look up renew life, they have many different products for whatever your needs. If you are unsure on the bacteria they use on a specific one, google each strain. Good luck! 

 

As far as COq10

 

Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) is a naturally occurring component present in living cells. Its physiological function is to act as an essential cofactor for ATP production, and to perform important antioxidant activities in the body. In most countries, CoQ10 has been widely used as a dietary supplement for more than 20 years. Recently, the use of CoQ10 as a dietary supplement has grown with a corresponding increase in daily dosage. The present review describes the safety profile of CoQ10 on the basis of animal and human data. The published reports concerning safety studies indicate that CoQ10 has low toxicity and does not induce serious adverse effects in humans. The acceptable daily intake (ADI) is 12mg/kg/day, calculated from the no-observed-adverse-effect level (NOAEL) of 1200 mg/kg/day derived from a 52-week chronic toxicity study in rats, i.e., 720 mg/day for a person weighing 60 kg. Risk assessment for CoQ10 based on various clinical trial data indicates that the observed safety level (OSL) for CoQ10 is 1200 mg/day/person. Evidence from pharmacokinetic studies suggest that exogenous CoQ10 does not influence the biosynthesis of endogenous CoQ9/CoQ10 nor does it accumulate into plasma or tissues after cessation of supplementation. Overall, these data from preclinical and clinical studies indicate that CoQ10 is highly safe for use as a dietary supplement. Additionally, analysis of CoQ10 bioavailability or its pharmacokinetics provides the pertinent safety evaluation for CoQ10.

Biofactors. 2008;32(1-4):199-208.

Safety assessment of coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10).

Hidaka T1, Fujii K, Funahashi I, Fukutomi N, Hosoe K.

Author information

• 1Functional Food Ingredients Division, Healthcare Products Business Unit, Kaneka Corporation, Osaka, Japan.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19096117

 

There are many more studies, even dated 2014, I really tried to find a negative study for coq10, but all I see is positive. Have a look.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....med/?term=coq10

 

Edited by redFishBlueFish, 16 August 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[eon]

A probiotic product from NOW has only 10 types of bacterias. I don't know how many there is exactly. All I know is that I always see the acidophilus type, maybe it is the popular strain.

[redFishBlueFish]

I've seen many positive reviews on the renew life brand products. Separating the information out of these studies and links is absolutely irritating. I am going to just say google each. 

Edited by redFishBlueFish, 17 August 2014 - 06:52 AM.

[hallucinogen]

up to this date, - ALL OF THEM !

except Selenium and Iodine(in form of powdered Kelp), and maybe very Pure L-Tryptophan without any additives,

and i'm still experimenting with a plant-sourced calcium supplement(never have taken a calcium supplement in all my life though) .

 

If you still buy into "supplements" over whole foods, you are the newbiest newbies of them all !

It's alright though, imminst boards are sadly full of people who who have had their minds deluded by scientific publishings full of hype, marketing and direct propaganda, the amount of exuding ignorance and misinformation here is overwhelming, and while everyone considers themselves a highly "educated" individual on here, almost all of you lack the actual life experience and hands-on personal proper scientific experimentation stemming from ancient ancestral teachings, and all you do is flap around like butterflies from one study paper to another, buying yet into another supplement or "futuristic magic cure",

yet you keep on missing the basic fundamentals throughout nearly all of your life

 

- this is called going further and further in following the wrong path, and becoming more distant from the source

 

and even after saying all that, It was Clearly evident since the very moment I joined here that imminst was and still is the BEST, most updated and useful source of information and knowledge, all it is really lacking is Wisdom,

this just really puts things in perspective

 

I would usually say just go and do w/e you think is right, so what if it takes you just 10-30years to realize what I have, instead of simply opening your mind and listening, - but that would be such a waste of time and energy that we don't have the luxury of anymore,

So it's time to wake up from your "technologically advanced" cold and empty illusion, and step into the true Nature of reality !

 

I really suggest dropping All your current supplements, stop adding any sodium to your meals, learning how to choose and prepare organic vegetarian food healthily and perhaps sourdough einkorn/rye bread first, living the healthiest lifestyle is about ingredients, timing And combinations 

Learn about which conventional produce has the highest number and content of pesticide residues, and which is grown using sewage water that contains all kinds of pharms in it, avoiding that and gmo and growing your own when possible using rock soil for mineral enrichment 

I haven't met a Single person yet irl, via book or on internet who knew what it was exactly all about yet, some might know good parts and pieces, but never a wholesome big picture

 

Taking 99% of supplements out there is residing on a very primitive stage of evolution, that you are actively trying to hold on to

Edited by hallucinogen, 18 August 2014 - 03:12 AM.

[redFishBlueFish]

Why go organic? Most people would benefit from getting away from all the processed foods. I bet people would feel amazing if they would eat more fruits, vegetables, and less processed food. That is what people really need to do.

[deeptrance]

With glucosamine, insofar as negative side effects are concerned, its all about the dose. From memory, I believe the dose that was required to cause islet cell death was over 7 grams per day for an average sized man. My dose is 1.5 grams (down from 2 grams) every 5-7 days. I was dosing 2 grams every 3 days for a few months, with little problem other than needing to take an occasional break.

Though, I can readily perceive its effects on insulin and how they could go negative quickly. Drinking alcohol on a day that you take 2 grams will lead to very little productive sleep, from what I gather to be sugar disregulation. Its marked effects on sleep, in general, and its overall potent effect have led to to refine my dosing schedule to what it now is. I tend to get the most benefit with the least side effects on this schedule.

 

I question whether you could perceive effects of glucosamine at the doses you've tried, and the comment about drinking alcohol on the same day when 2 grams is consumed is also suspect. I've taken 2-3 grams of glucosamine daily for at least 25 years, and during a decade-long period during that time I developed alcoholism and drank between 8 and 12 drinks a day. Obviously I'm not boasting or making a recommendation that others should "go and do likewise," but I mention my history to illustrate that the combination of alcohol and glucosamine is probably not as problematic as you've made it out to be. If it's as bad as you suggest then it's a miracle that I was able to enjoy a good sleep/wake cycle given the morbid absurdity of my former drinking, drugging, and supplementing routine.

Edited by deeptrance, 19 August 2014 - 04:55 AM.

[deeptrance]

Taking 99% of supplements out there is residing on a very primitive stage of evolution, that you are actively trying to hold on to

 

You have an interesting perspective, but maybe you could express yourself in a less arrogant and abrasive manner. Proclaiming yourself to be on some higher plane of existence, more enlightened and more highly evolved than the rest of us, isn't helpful to anyone, especially yourself. What you've done is to limn yourself as a sophomoric self-appointed New Age guru who is completely out of touch with social reality. Your preaching will always fall on deaf ears as long as you talk down to others while promoting your own ego.

 

Here is an alternative way of looking at the "stage of evolution" concept that you currently wield as an ineffectual weapon: Maybe everyone is exactly who and what we need to be, and maybe we're all just different manifestations of a singular consciousness that has no objective other than to experience an infinity of possible realities. In this case, there is nothing better or worse about what you or I or anyone else happens to do.

 

Here's yet another perspective on stages of evolution: Every organism modifies its environment, intentionally and/or unintentionally. Humans are doing the intentional modification far beyond what any other species has done, but you cannot arbitrarily distinguish artificial from natural, and you cannot dismiss supplements in the way you've done without also questioning your own highly unnatural practice of eating foods that have been hybridized, taken out of their original environments, moved around the globe, and combined together in unprecedented ways. 

 

I think your world-view is neo-Puritanical. You imagine a wholesome, unspoiled natural world and you seek to cleanse yourself of the contamination of human interventions (i.e., sin.) Hoping to intrigue us, you employ spiritual lingo and point vaguely to heavenly visions that your privileged eyes have seen. I'm not buying it. But your diet sounds pretty good so I'm not criticizing anything other than your criticism of everyone else.

[eon]

well said deeptrance. Hallucinogen is simply hallucinating.

[Ames]

..

 

With glucosamine, insofar as negative side effects are concerned, its all about the dose. From memory, I believe the dose that was required to cause islet cell death was over 7 grams per day for an average sized man. My dose is 1.5 grams (down from 2 grams) every 5-7 days. I was dosing 2 grams every 3 days for a few months, with little problem other than needing to take an occasional break.

Though, I can readily perceive its effects on insulin and how they could go negative quickly. Drinking alcohol on a day that you take 2 grams will lead to very little productive sleep, from what I gather to be sugar disregulation. Its marked effects on sleep, in general, and its overall potent effect have led to to refine my dosing schedule to what it now is. I tend to get the most benefit with the least side effects on this schedule.

 

I question whether you could perceive effects of glucosamine at the doses you've tried, and the comment about drinking alcohol on the same day when 2 grams is consumed is also suspect. I've taken 2-3 grams of glucosamine daily for at least 25 years, and during a decade-long period during that time I developed alcoholism and drank between 8 and 12 drinks a day. Obviously I'm not boasting or making a recommendation that others should "go and do likewise," but I mention my history to illustrate that the combination of alcohol and glucosamine is probably not as problematic as you've made it out to be. If it's as bad as you suggest then it's a miracle that I was able to enjoy a good sleep/wake cycle given the morbid absurdity of my former drinking, drugging, and supplementing routine.

 

 

Unless you are implying that I'm lying, I'm not sure what you mean by "suspect". Are you implying that I'm lying? 

 

However, I curiously did omit a key difference in the post that you quoted. I likely did this because, in my prior post, I clearly state that I am taking NAG and so I guess I just short-handed it thereafter to glucosamine.  NAG and Glucosamine work differently in the body, and work differently toward any life extension benefits.

 

 

http://www.anti-agin...-for-longevity/

 

...another group has shown a lifespan extending effect of N-acetyl-glucosamine, but the mechanism of life span extension is by inhibiting the hexosamine pathway, not via AMPK.

 

    

Second, I have a pretty significant neuropathology, for over 15 years, and am sensitive to what works and what does not and my sensitivity as well as my experience with NAG are both well beyond placebo. 

 

I rarely drink, down from frequent 3-5x per week drinking for 5 years straight about 20 years ago. I know what it is to drink, how I feel on it, and what it is to be sober. Also, as I before stated, I infrequently consume NAG. Therefore, I am in a better position to analyze how these substances interact than are you. My body is neither accustomed to alcohol nor NAG, yet I familiar with their singular effects. You take glucosamine every day for 25 years and then expect to use a 25 year acclimation period as a reference point for drug interactions and effects. I don't know about anyone else here but I, for one, would prefer to listen to someone whose body is not as acclimated. I've never known a substance not to lose its effect, eventually. 

 

Third, it's problematic for me. That's what I stated. If you think that everyone here has the same reactions to different supplements, then you read a different forum than do I. People here have different pathologies. A stimulant that is a god-send for one person could cause nothing but negative side-effects born out of increased neuro-toxicity in another. My body's ability to handle both sugar and sugar/alcohol could be on a completely different level (better/worse) than yours. My pancreas and liver could be in better/worse shape than yours. I could be consistently sleep deprived compared to you, or you to me. I could have much higher baseline serum levels of noradrenaline and serotonin than you, or less. 

 

Your experience is not my experience. However, I tend to be sensitive to things both when they work well and poorly - primarily because my pathology is largely in my prefrontal cortex and eyes. I offer that this sensitivity doesn't mean that my body works differently, but just that my specific pathology may enable me to sense whether a substance has net positive or negative effects earlier than would that of others. 

 

I'll stick with my corrected implication that NAG is a double-edged sword. That's both my experience as well as what the research shows. Additionally, NAG/glucosamine's beneficial action and their potential hazards are both shown to act through the pancreas. I'm not sure why you would doubt that alcohol would interact badly with any form of glucosamine, given the potential for islet cell death at doses of around 7 grams. My experience aside, that seems both perfectly logical and reasonable insofar as a personal risk assessment is concerned. Additionally, you may react different to NAG vs glucosamine when it is mixed with alcohol (though your 25 year routine casts doubt on whether or not your body is as sensitive to it as that of others might be).

 

If your routine works for you then I suggest not changing a thing just to prove me wrong or right. This is a silly conversation. For me, NAG effects my sleep dramatically. This would also be consistent with the research that implies it's hormetic effect. The effects wane after about a week of not taking it. Note: I don't consider the side-effects effects all bad. I can get by on less sleep, although, at the same time, i will get less sleep if I go to be too late. It's about managing the dose and the dose frequency, in terms of managing the side effects that I realize with it.

 

 

Edited by golgi1, 20 August 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[Ames]

 

Taking 99% of supplements out there is residing on a very primitive stage of evolution, that you are actively trying to hold on to

 

You have an interesting perspective, but maybe you could express yourself in a less arrogant and abrasive manner. Proclaiming yourself to be on some higher plane of existence, more enlightened and more highly evolved than the rest of us, isn't helpful to anyone, especially yourself. What you've done is to limn yourself as a sophomoric self-appointed New Age guru who is completely out of touch with social reality. Your preaching will always fall on deaf ears as long as you talk down to others while promoting your own ego.

 

Here is an alternative way of looking at the "stage of evolution" concept that you currently wield as an ineffectual weapon: Maybe everyone is exactly who and what we need to be, and maybe we're all just different manifestations of a singular consciousness that has no objective other than to experience an infinity of possible realities. In this case, there is nothing better or worse about what you or I or anyone else happens to do.

 

Here's yet another perspective on stages of evolution: Every organism modifies its environment, intentionally and/or unintentionally. Humans are doing the intentional modification far beyond what any other species has done, but you cannot arbitrarily distinguish artificial from natural, and you cannot dismiss supplements in the way you've done without also questioning your own highly unnatural practice of eating foods that have been hybridized, taken out of their original environments, moved around the globe, and combined together in unprecedented ways. 

 

I think your world-view is neo-Puritanical. You imagine a wholesome, unspoiled natural world and you seek to cleanse yourself of the contamination of human interventions (i.e., sin.) Hoping to intrigue us, you employ spiritual lingo and point vaguely to heavenly visions that your privileged eyes have seen. I'm not buying it. But your diet sounds pretty good so I'm not criticizing anything other than your criticism of everyone else.

 

 

I get your criticisms, but don't the first bold lines strike you as both a bit heavy-handed an ironic considering that your avatar image clearly states "Your Brain is God"? I'll refrain from such an aggressive sounding criticism such as "hypocritical". And yes, I get the original Leary reference and I know his work. Differentiating between what you asserted of the other poster and your avatar statement is essentially splitting hairs. Therefore, I still think that it's an ironic criticism.

 

Your second bold lines are indicative of non-dualist/advaita/etc. philosophy. I'm familiar with it in some depth, study comparative religion as a primary hobby, and I disagree with it. Actually, I think that it's a bit of a virus that has served to homogenize religion the world over. We can agree to disagree. However, consider that that non-dualist perspective has never really been persecuted. Dualism has been persecuted and all but eradicated. The experienced, skeptical psychonaut would tend to look toward what is actively repressed than what is promoted. I'll leave it at that.

 

Your third set of bold lines are a false equivalence.

 

None of this implies that I agree with the poster whom you are criticizing. 

Edited by golgi1, 20 August 2014 - 03:25 AM.

[MachineGhostX]

Haha, the whole bottom shelf of my fridge is full of bottles that I stopped using either because of lack of effect or because of side effects:

 

Not counting a bunch of bottles that I threw out already, there is DHEA, nettle root, citicoline, choline, GPLC, magnesium, B6, rhodiola, ashwaghanda, ALCAR, taurine, DIM, 5-HTP, MK-7, low dose aspirin, LDN.  And that's not even counting the whole bag of probably about ten different useless antidepressants in my closet.   

 

Wow, thats a lot of mild stuff.  What reactions were you having to the LDN?

[MachineGhostX]

OK so I'm tired of eating yogurt to get my "healthy bacterias". This is just too much sugar and calories. Would taking a probiotic supplement be best then? What brands or doses? I have never tried it but I just read that it is good for weight loss and the gut. Possibly the reason why people store fat is because not enough healthy bacteria in the gut. I'm not familiar with what is supposed to be a good dose, brand or type of probiotic I should try out. Give me some recommendations. I'm only about 160 pounds but could live with no belly fat though. I was even down to 140 pounds, I looked skinny but with belly fat. Weird.

 

I'd suggest cultivating your own kefir grains.  You'd ingest orders of magnitude more probiotics than in any supplement.  And ingest some resistant starch too as a prebiotic and carrier for the critters.

Edited by MachineGhostX, 21 August 2014 - 12:30 AM.

[deeptrance]

I tried to format a post I spent some time composing, failed repeatedly, and would like to delete this post, but there's no option for deleting our own comments. I hereby register my complaint to the web admin. And I want to insert an angry emoticon here but there's no way to do so even though I have enabled emoticons. Nothing works for me with this new "improved" system, same as all the other changes happening in the tech world. I'm old. Google hates me. I will be electronically simplified and sold as a supplement.

Edited by deeptrance, 21 August 2014 - 04:07 AM.

[redFishBlueFish]

I tried to format a post I spent some time composing, failed repeatedly, and would like to delete this post, but there's no option for deleting our own comments. I hereby register my complaint to the web admin. And I want to insert an angry emoticon here but there's no way to do so even though I have enabled emoticons. Nothing works for me with this new "improved" system, same as all the other changes happening in the tech world. I'm old. Google hates me. I will be electronically simplified and sold as a supplement.

 

I don't think so. I've had similar problems when using my phone. Sometimes when I notice I am having issues, I will type it up in notepad and paste it over.

[eon]

I've tried those kefir yogurt drinks. Not sure how to cultivate them exactly, don't I need a goat to make kefir with? What is this resistant starch? Bread?

 

 

OK so I'm tired of eating yogurt to get my "healthy bacterias". This is just too much sugar and calories. Would taking a probiotic supplement be best then? What brands or doses? I have never tried it but I just read that it is good for weight loss and the gut. Possibly the reason why people store fat is because not enough healthy bacteria in the gut. I'm not familiar with what is supposed to be a good dose, brand or type of probiotic I should try out. Give me some recommendations. I'm only about 160 pounds but could live with no belly fat though. I was even down to 140 pounds, I looked skinny but with belly fat. Weird.

 

I'd suggest cultivating your own kefir grains.  You'd ingest orders of magnitude more probiotics than in any supplement.  And ingest some resistant starch too as a prebiotic and carrier for the critters.

 

 

[MachineGhostX]

 

I've tried those kefir yogurt drinks. Not sure how to cultivate them exactly, don't I need a goat to make kefir with? What is this resistant starch? Bread?

 

 

Those commercial kefir drinks are made from cheap quality, instant-dried kefir starter, though I should have been more specific and said water kefir.   You just need to acquire or buy some live kefir grains and feed them and change their water/milk daily (drink it).  For water kefir, it only takes 1T of table sugar or similar and a drop or two of trace minerals per cup per 24hrs to keep them alive and happy.

 

In "supplement" form, resistant starch type 2 is easily gotten in Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch or better yet, Hi-Maize Resistant Starch.  Besides slowing down glucose absorption to virtually nil and lowering blood glucose, RS will feed the critters in the lower descending colon (cancerific area) which is overlooked in the typical fiber-poor and resistant starch-poor Western diet.  Imagine if Farrah Fawcett had only known about RS.

 

However I do think that supplementing with true spore-forming, soil-based organisms no more than once a week is probably something you can't realistically do yourself unless you like eating dirt.   Garden of Life used to sell SBO's in Primal Defense back in its heydey before they sold out; its no longer SBO at all except for one minor ingredient.  Spore-forming organisms can be theoretically dangerous since they take up permanent residence in the gut unlike probiotics, so caveat emptor.  I'd stick to proven and clinically effective SBO's such as Prescript-Assist.

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 21 August 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[eon]

I've tried some Bob's Red Mill muesli. Curious how the unmodified potato starch is "eaten"? Is it ready to eat if not how is it used exactly?

 

So buy kefir grains, soak in water or milk for 24 hours then drink it? I don't know what an SBO is. If Garden of Life do not sell it anymore, then who does?

 

I just bought a probiotic from amazon with 15 bacterias.