18 replies to this topic

[TSX TypeR]

I tried C60 (BuckyLabs - 1.7mg) for the first time at 8am in the morning with breakfast on May 9th and as a 26yo I haven't experienced an increase in energy or any mental improvements. So far (30 hours later) C60's effects are virtually unnoticeable in normal daily life.

 

However, I can use this phrase to characterize my workouts on C60 so far: There is no burn!

 

I haven't tried any aerobic workouts yet but my anaerobic workouts have become effortless. The first one was at about 2pm that afternoon (90 degree heat) while test riding Trek roadbikes. I noticed that I could peddle at maximum effort without feeling any burn and I literally got bored of peddling with max effort before I got tired (I didn't know this could happen). However, I still got tired, because when I took the second bike (a much lighter bike) out for a ride, I couldn't put forth the same effort (Still no burn). I attribute the effect of the lost power on the second ride to the amount of water I lost on the first ride. The second workout was 5 sets of push ups done about 26 hours after the C60 dose. During this workout, I normally do these with maximum intensity and speed while feeling the burn starting at the end of the first set. This burn then persists midway through the second set and again a few repetitions into the 3rd set making the last two sets absolutely hell, with speed and intensity dropping off rapidly in the middle of the 3rd and throughout 4th set. During today's push ups, I did the fifth set with the same intensity and speed as the first set while increasing the amount of reps in each set by 50% over the last time I did push ups two weeks ago, (there was still no burn!) on top of that I felt like I could have done another 5 sets, because I wasn't tired afterward.

 

This leaves me wondering whether or not these C60 workouts (where I am doing much more work) are as effective as my much harder non-C60 workouts (where I feel the work much more)? Does anyone have any input?

 

Is this a case of no pain no gain?

 

Thanks

[Metrodorus]

I have had the same result, and have been taking C60 for some months now.

 

However, if you are lifting heavy weights, the lack of a burn is problematic, as it is a warning signal not to over-exert yourself.

 

I got myself into trouble, as I found I could do high reps of very heavy weights, with no burn.....I just reached a point where I could no longer lift the weight.....but no pain.........and I really enjoyed this...and ended up with an irritated tendon in my arm, which took over 9 months to get back to normal.

 

I now do much shorter sets.

 

I did not notice C60 impacting negatively on muscle growth.

 

 

[markymark]

yes, I experienced the same: irritated tendons (arm and achilles-tendon) due to more chinups and faster runs (11 Km)...

hopefully, over the years tendon tissues will catch up a bit ;-) in terms of stability .....

mm

[AdamI]

Got the same have some problems with tendons being sore/irritated. But I do think that my workouts give me more this way.

The rest pause between sets is pretty much none existent for me. I find it really nice not having to wait and rest, saves time

[platypus]

I think "maximum effort" while biking wold be all-out sprinting. It's generally accepted that one cannot sustain this level of effort for more than about 12 seconds, as in Tabatha-intervals.

[TSX TypeR]

Wow, after seeing all this talk of irritated tendons, I think I will not do push ups again for awhile.

 

I have had the same result, and have been taking C60 for some months now.

 

However, if you are lifting heavy weights, the lack of a burn is problematic, as it is a warning signal not to over-exert yourself.

 

I got myself into trouble, as I found I could do high reps of very heavy weights, with no burn.....I just reached a point where I could no longer lift the weight.....but no pain.........and I really enjoyed this...and ended up with an irritated tendon in my arm, which took over 9 months to get back to normal.

 

I now do much shorter sets.

 

I did not notice C60 impacting negatively on muscle growth.

 

 

 

You didn't notice any negative impact on muscle growth, but since C60 users are seemingly able to do more work (if tendons are up to it) shouldn't that really mean more gains? Or am I just doing more work to get the same muscular strength and power gains that I would normally get if I wasn't on C60?

[niner]

The effect people are reporting here is a profound reduction in muscle fatigue, which is a free radical-mediated process. The same sort of effect has been extensively documented with NAC, although I suspect the magnitude of the effect with NAC is not as large as what we see with c60oo.  It certainly does look like a protective effect that prevents us from injuring tendons or other skeletal components.  Like everyone else, I aggravated the hell out of a pre-existing biceps tendonitis by doing too many reps.  These types of injuries take a very long time to get better, and you may never return to the pre-injury state, so be careful not to overdo it.   I've also wondered if the no pain no gain dictum is active here.  All I can say is that I still seem to respond well to exercise, and get stronger if I make the effort.  I've noticed that I don't get that endorphin-ish feeling after I work out, but I also don't get that crappy "I need to hit the gym" feeling if I don't work out.  Does that mean that I didn't injure myself as much for a given workout?  Probably, but does it also mean that I don't get the full hormetic effect?  I don't know, but so far, the hormesis seems to still work.
 

Free Radic Biol Med. 2008 Jan 15;44(2):169-79. doi: 10.1016/j.freeradbiomed.2007.03.002. Epub 2007 Mar 12.
Free radicals and muscle fatigue: Of ROS, canaries, and the IOC.
Reid MB.

Skeletal muscle fibers continually generate reactive oxygen species (ROS) at a slow rate that increases during muscle contraction. This activity-dependent increase in ROS production contributes to fatigue of skeletal muscle during strenuous exercise. Existing data suggest that muscle-derived ROS primarily act on myofibrillar proteins to inhibit calcium sensitivity and depress force. Decrements in calcium sensitivity and force are acutely reversible by dithiothreitol, a thiol-selective reducing agent. These observations suggest that thiol modifications on one or more regulatory proteins are responsible for oxidant-induced losses during fatigue. More intense ROS exposure leads to losses in calcium regulation that mimic pathologic changes and are not reversible. Studies in humans, quadrupeds, and isolated muscle preparations indicate that antioxidant pretreatment can delay muscle fatigue. In humans, this phenomenon is best defined for N-acetylcysteine (NAC), a reduced thiol donor that supports glutathione resynthesis. NAC has been shown to inhibit fatigue in healthy adults during electrical muscle activation, inspiratory resistive loading, handgrip exercise, and intense cycling. These findings identify ROS as endogenous mediators of muscle fatigue and highlight the importance of future research to (a) define the cellular mechanism of ROS action and (b) develop antioxidants as novel therapeutic interventions for treating fatigue.

PMID: 18191753

 

 

Free Radic Biol Med. 2008 Jan 15;44(2):132-41. doi: 10.1016/j.freeradbiomed.2007.06.003. Epub 2007 Jun 13.
Free radicals generated by contracting muscle: by-products of metabolism or key regulators of muscle function?
Jackson MJ.

Division of Metabolic and Cellular Medicine, School of Clinical Sciences, University of Liverpool, Liverpool L69 3GA, UK. m.j.jackson@liverpool.ac.uk

Skeletal muscle fibers generate reactive oxygen species (ROS) at a number of subcellular sites and this generation is increased by contractile activity. Early studies suggested that generation of superoxide as a by-product of mitochondrial oxygen consumption was the major source of muscle ROS generation and that the species produced were inevitably damaging to muscle, but recent data argue against both of these possibilities. Developments in analytical approaches have shown that specific ROS are generated in a controlled manner by skeletal muscle fibers in response to physiological stimuli and play important roles in the physiological adaptations of muscle to contractions. These include optimization of contractile performance and initiation of key adaptive changes in gene expression to the stresses of contractions. These positive benefits of the ROS that are induced by contractile activity contrast starkly with the increasing evidence that ROS-induced degenerative pathways are fundamental to aging processes in skeletal muscle. A fuller understanding of these contrasting roles is recognized to be important in the design of strategies to maintain and optimize skeletal muscle function during exercise and to help prevent the devastating effects of sarcopenia and other muscle-wasting conditions.

PMID: 18191749

[platypus]

Off-topic: People are reporting terrific results in healing tendonitis and related issues with peptides like Thymosin beta 4.

[TSX TypeR]

Off-topic: People are reporting terrific results in healing tendonitis and related issues with peptides like Thymosin beta 4.

 

That looks interesting, but apparently authorities are thinking about banning it. Maybe I should grab a stash before that happens. ha

 

 

Back on topic: Even if C60 may hinder muscle growth, it still seems that the high intensity workouts permitted by C60 may still allow for cardiovascular gains and a temporarily increased ability to burn fat. Is there anything to indicate that this isn't the case?

[cytg]

Nice, I too have developed an irretated tendon or fascia in my lower arm up towards the elbow (this is a new one for me) when pushing heavy weights.. Pattern emerging?

 

[Turnbuckle]

Nice, I too have developed an irretated tendon or fascia in my lower arm up towards the elbow (this is a new one for me) when pushing heavy weights.. Pattern emerging?

 

 

 

This has been experienced by several users--the arrogance of C60. You can instantly do more and you end up with a tendon injury because you didn't build up slowly.

[hamishm00]

Also experienced lower arm brachialis tendon strain (which is persisting but getting better over the course of 2 months) because I suddenly found myself being able to lift much more weight than usual after starting c60. 

 

There seems to be something to this "arrogance" theory.

[TSX TypeR]

Back on topic: Even if C60 may hinder muscle growth, it still seems that the high intensity workouts permitted by C60 may still allow for cardiovascular gains and a temporarily increased ability to burn fat. Is there anything to indicate that this isn't the case?

 

 

May 13th, C60's workout advantage is gone. Since, this was my friend's C60 I will have buy my own to test its ability to burn fat by way of it's increased workout tolerance another time (will my 6 pack turn back into into an 8 pack?). This probably seems pretty obvious but I would like to see this first hand. As for the cardiovascular effects, I will have to devise a way to test whether or not it is having an effect in that category.

 

 

Nice, I too have developed an irretated tendon or fascia in my lower arm up towards the elbow (this is a new one for me) when pushing heavy weights.. Pattern emerging?

 

 

 

This has been experienced by several users--the arrogance of C60. You can instantly do more and you end up with a tendon injury because you didn't build up slowly.

 

 

There does seem to be something to this arrogance theory, but it also looks like something else might be in play. While I was doing some research on tendon strengthening techniques at the bodybuilding forum, I found out that "the burn" is part of a mechanism that allows tendon strengthening to occur. I believe that the absence of this burn may point to C60 preventing tendon strengthening to some degree.

 

 

J Hand Surg Am. 2001 Sep;26(5):847-54.

Flexor tendon wound healing in vitro: the effect of lactate on tendon cell proliferation and collagen production.

Klein MB¹, Pham H, Yalamanchi N, Chang J.

Erratum in - J Hand Surg [Am] 2002 Jul;27(4):740.

Abstract

Flexor tendon repair in zone II is complicated by adhesions to the surrounding fibro-osseous sheath. Lactate is an early mediator of wound healing known to play an important role in stimulation of collagen production after cellular injury. Little attention has been paid to the role of lactate in flexor tendon wound healing. In this study tendon and tendon sheath were excised from rabbit forepaws. We examined proliferation of tendon sheath fibroblasts, epitenon tenocytes, and endotenon tenocytes; collagen production by each of these 3 cell types; and effects of lactate on cell proliferation and collagen production. Three cell lines, tendon sheath, epitenon, and endotenon, were isolated and cultured. Tendon sheath fibroblasts showed the greatest proliferation. All 3 cell lines produced collagen I, II, and III. Lactate significantly increased collagen production by all 3 cell lines. We show that cells of the tendon sheath, epitenon, and endotenon produce collagen in vitro. Modulation of lactate levels may provide a means to modulate collagen production.

 

PMID:11561237

 

Edited by TSX TypeR, 20 May 2014 - 12:31 AM.

[hav]

Isn't it actually the acidosis that causes the muscle soreness?  I get the impression that c60 makes my energy conversion cycle during exercise more efficient, thereby limiting C02 production. Which would limit acidosis without as much need for lactate consumption, leaving more around for tendon health.  But the lack of soreness definitely dulls an important warning sign of impending damage.

 

Howard

 

[cytg]

 

Nice, I too have developed an irretated tendon or fascia in my lower arm up towards the elbow (this is a new one for me) when pushing heavy weights.. Pattern emerging?

 

 

 

This has been experienced by several users--the arrogance of C60. You can instantly do more and you end up with a tendon injury because you didn't build up slowly.

 

 

Well, not too sure about that, I have been pushing those weights for almost 20 years and given my current schedule, eating habits and general lifestyle I am right where I should be strength wise - both for singles and and for reps (15ish) , no less, no more.

I do notice a (positive) difference when running though. Got more air? - Shins will still cramp up though.

I also have no problem getting a "pump" if that is what I am after - allthough that havent been a priority for the last 10+ years (no real evidence suggests that "the pump" in itself is building mass nor strength).

[niner]

 

 

Nice, I too have developed an irretated tendon or fascia in my lower arm up towards the elbow (this is a new one for me) when pushing heavy weights.. Pattern emerging?

 
This has been experienced by several users--the arrogance of C60. You can instantly do more and you end up with a tendon injury because you didn't build up slowly.

 
Well, not too sure about that, I have been pushing those weights for almost 20 years and given my current schedule, eating habits and general lifestyle I am right where I should be strength wise - both for singles and and for reps (15ish) , no less, no more.
I do notice a (positive) difference when running though. Got more air? - Shins will still cramp up though.

You mean you got tendinitis or fascitis without doing a lot more reps than normal? I think everyone else's injuries were related to greatly exceeding their normal rep limit.

[YOLF]

I think Borris Sala's results would be useful to look at here. He had consistently been a challenger at his sport and after taking C60 became a consistent champion. I think there is some gain to be had as it allows us to surpass our previous limits and there is likely turnover of our cellular machinery which results in a different type of gain as compared to the conventional gains one gets from working out. Perhaps cycling of C60 on a schedule is called for?

[cytg]

You mean you got tendinitis or fascitis without doing a lot more reps than normal? I think everyone else's injuries were related to greatly exceeding their normal rep limit.

 

 

Yup, that is my assessment. I realize it is in contradiction to what other people are experiencing and that's why I posted it. 

Maybe c60oo just helps you realize your next plateau faster, thus if you are allready 'there' it wont do much. I am pretty sure it aids me with cardio (running, swimming), but then again my cardio level far from comparable to my strength level, so it may be the same pattern.

But boiling it down, these c60 anecdotes, subjective guestimates is really really volatile from a 'fact' perspective.

 

Anyone here spinning? It would be a fun experiement to measure VOmax over a period of time with / without C60oo

[platypus]

I rarely do more than eight reps and I haven't noticed that C60 made a clear difference at low rep counts. I guess it dos not increase maximum strength or the neural adaptation needed for maximum force.