32 replies to this topic

[Arjuna]

I read this off of examine:

"One animal model noted that Quercetin, dosed at 10,20, or 40mg/kg bodyweight taken orally, was able to reduce learning as assessed by the Y-Maze and Morris Water maze task[45] yet no dose-dependence was noted. Only one other study has focused on cognition in healthy animals, and it was found that Quercetin was capable of deteriorating anterograde cognitive functions as assessed by the inhibitory avoidance task.[46] The lowest dose used (10mg/kg), after body surface area conversions,[47] correlated to 48.6mg Quercetin in an adult male human.

In these rats, lowered levels of phosphorylated CREB were noted.[45] This protein (CREB) is activated when short-term memories are translated to long term memories via creating proteins[48] and these proteins appear to be crucial to long-term memory storage.[49][50] These may be downstream to a reduction in Akt phorphorylation also noted[45] which appears to be a regulator of CREB.[51] CREB phorphorylation was decreased by 28%, 37%, and 35% at 10,20,40mg/kg bodyweight and Akt by 29% (20mg/kg) and 53% (40mg/kg).[45] The decreased phosphorylation of CREB paralleled that of CaMKII much more than it did Akt, and all results were recorded 1 hour after consumption.[45] The authors hypothesized that Quercetin affects acquisitional memory.[45]"

http://examine.com/s...cetin/#summary4

It is sad because I like the COMT inhibition, and mitochondria biogenesis. It seems like such a great supplement, it ended my allergies.

Can anyone share their opinion on the negative cognitive effects of quercetin?

[Arjuna]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/20466049/

I think I will give it up for now.

[pbandy1]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/20466049/

I think I will give it up for now.

Yikes, definitely don't like the looks of that. Especially this point from examine.com: "The lowest dose used (10mg/kg), after body surface area conversions,[47] correlated to 48.6mg Quercetin in an adult male human."

 

I am currently taking Designs for Health Complete Multi (iron-free), which has 25mg of quercetin. 

 

Also, LEF Optimized Resveratrol has 60mg quercetin in each pill. Something to think about in case any of you are taking that.

[Arjuna]

It can help with absorption of resveratrol, that is why it is in there. I'm so bummed. I need to find another antioxidant for mitochondrial biogenesis with a safer set of side effects.

[Flex]

I guess it depends on the purposes.

It might maybe not be good as a nootropic, altough it has some dopamine increasing effects.

but  decrasing CaMKII as well as inhibiting Parp-1, which is linked to Sidekick-1 may be good for Cocaine addiction

[Flex]

Got Depressive again. Not sure whether its related to My Quercetin consuimption, but it seems to me.

 

Btw:

Quercetin targets cysteine string protein (CSPalpha) and impairs synaptic transmission.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20548785

 

And Lithium can supposedly reverse this:

Lithium ions enhance cysteine string protein gene expression in vivo and in vitro.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10820197

 

Edited by Flex, 31 May 2014 - 10:46 PM.

[Arjuna]

I've since dropped quercetin and started taking curcumin (with piperine, which isn't completely safe). It has had a nice anti depressant effect for me.

Are there other things that enhance CSPalpha?

[SanjayK]

Quercitin can heal permeable gut which is one of the reasons why it reduced your allergy symptoms.  Quercitin is also naturally occurring in apples, kale and a bunch of other vegetables so unless you go on some crazy diet avoiding leafy greens and fruit you're getting some amounts.

 

Probably not at the dose you're taking when we eat it from natural sources.

 

I have suffered from gut related issues for decades and have felt that healing from candida, sibo and leaky gut has vastly improved my thinking/cognition etc.

 

So quercetin can definitely play a role on a temporary basis, maybe not long term.

[Strelok]

Bumping this thread in hopes of some more input.  I was going to order some quercetin, but decided to search threads on it here.  No way do I want it to affect my memory, because I'm currently going to school and taking some difficult courses.  Quercetin's dopamine enhancing effects are what got me interested originally.

[pbandy1]

Bumping this thread in hopes of some more input.  I was going to order some quercetin, but decided to search threads on it here.  No way do I want it to affect my memory, because I'm currently going to school and taking some difficult courses.  Quercetin's dopamine enhancing effects are what got me interested originally.

What I've decided is to finish my batch of LEF Optimized Resveratrol (has 60 mg quercetin in one pill), and get the dopamine side of things sorted via other methods: NALT as needed, uridine, cdp-choline, and losing a bit more fat (good for vitamin D status/tyrosine hydroxylase).

[Strelok]

 

Bumping this thread in hopes of some more input.  I was going to order some quercetin, but decided to search threads on it here.  No way do I want it to affect my memory, because I'm currently going to school and taking some difficult courses.  Quercetin's dopamine enhancing effects are what got me interested originally.

What I've decided is to finish my batch of LEF Optimized Resveratrol (has 60 mg quercetin in one pill), and get the dopamine side of things sorted via other methods: NALT as needed, uridine, cdp-choline, and losing a bit more fat (good for vitamin D status/tyrosine hydroxylase).

 

 

Thanks for the input.  I haven't tried NALT yet.  I've tried plain L-Tyrosine, and didn't like it too much.  How do the two compare? 

 

I'm still considering buying a small bottle of quercetin to see how I react to it. 

[pbandy1]

 

 

Bumping this thread in hopes of some more input.  I was going to order some quercetin, but decided to search threads on it here.  No way do I want it to affect my memory, because I'm currently going to school and taking some difficult courses.  Quercetin's dopamine enhancing effects are what got me interested originally.

What I've decided is to finish my batch of LEF Optimized Resveratrol (has 60 mg quercetin in one pill), and get the dopamine side of things sorted via other methods: NALT as needed, uridine, cdp-choline, and losing a bit more fat (good for vitamin D status/tyrosine hydroxylase).

 

 

Thanks for the input.  I haven't tried NALT yet.  I've tried plain L-Tyrosine, and didn't like it too much.  How do the two compare? 

 

I'm still considering buying a small bottle of quercetin to see how I react to it. 

 

I've never actually tried l-tyrosine, just NALT. I can say NALT works for me, especially when combined with caffeine/theanine/cdp-choline.

[Flex]

I've since dropped quercetin and started taking curcumin (with piperine, which isn't completely safe). It has had a nice anti depressant effect for me.

Are there other things that enhance CSPalpha?

 

Yes, Lithium. Although more globaly instead of the certain Alpha subtype.

Lithium ions enhance cysteine string protein gene expression in vivo and in vitro.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10820197

 

But as somebody said, it should resolve it on its own like the most things.

[Greg Cornes]

Interesting read for anyone interested in quercetins effects on cognition. 

 

http://biomedjournal...tory-animals-2/

 

Similar dosages were administered in this study.

 

However also found this study which suggests the opposite. 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/20466049/

 

 

Edited by Greg Cornes, 29 January 2016 - 08:19 PM.

[zorba990]

I am slowly ramping up my dose as many years ago it seemed to bring on joint pain but now does the opposite. At 1500mg in my protein shake and only side effect is some sulfer-y gas. Also taking sodium butyrate at the same time but dropped resveratrol until Quercetin experiment is over. I'm considering blending in phoschol for liposomes

[birthdaysuit]

I juiced four whole onions (high in Quercetin), a half a pineapple and blueberries and drank it raw on an empty stomach. Honestly, the experience was less than delightful. Never before did i think raw onions could make me feel so out of it. For almost an hour I felt like my brain had stopped working and I was off in a daze. I tested it again by drinking three whole onions and I experienced the same thing. 

 

Your stomach will reject onion juice but if you can get it down you’ll experience hell, so have fun. 

Edited by birthdaysuit, 01 February 2016 - 03:39 AM.

[FunkOdyssey]

 

I juiced four whole onions (high in Quercetin), a half a pineapple and blueberries and drank it raw on an empty stomach. Honestly, the experience was less than delightful. Never before did i think raw onions could make me feel so out of it. For almost an hour I felt like my brain had stopped working and I was off in a daze. I tested it again by drinking three whole onions and I experienced the same thing. 

 

Your stomach will reject onion juice but if you can get it down you’ll experience hell, so have fun. 

 

 

Quercetin has an elimination half-life of 11-25 hours depending on the source so I think you would have felt dazed for more than an hour if it were responsible.  My guess would be the massive dose of prebiotics you consumed and the consequences of your gut flora eating it: high levels of their metabolic byproducts or possibly inflammation if you have dysbiosis.  You would have ingested over 30g of fructooligosaccharides in one shot based on an estimate of 7g FOS per 100g onion (source).  I've had brain fog with excessive prebiotic ingestion many times.

[genereader]

 

I juiced four whole onions (high in Quercetin).... Never before did i think raw onions could make me feel so out of it. For almost an hour I felt like my brain had stopped working and I was off in a daze.

 

Onions are also high in sulfur, so you could have been dealing with a temporary sulfite overload.  1mg Molybdenum Glycinate (by Thorne) is what I use when feeling brain-fogged by sulfites.  It works quickly. 

[Kinesis]

That onion cocktail would contain literally thousands of compounds, making it impossible to know which may have led to the noted effect without further experimentation. If quercitin is suspected, a trial of isolated quercitin would be the smoking gun.

[thedevinroy]

Been on 500mg activated quercetin (also has vitamin C and bromelain) for 2x per day.  It's been about a week now.  I can say with some certainty that this stuff is terrible on my cognition.  If it weren't for some pramiracetam I had kicking around, I'd be a vegetable.  Maybe other people don't feel like this, but seriously rethinking this whole compound.  I figured with the MAO activity and mitochondrial stimulating property, it would be awesome.  Instead, it just sucks the life out of me.

 

It is known to cause low blood pressure, but I almost feel low in fuel (though the blood sugar studies don't really show that).  Recall is impaired.  Focus is unaffected.  Sleep is unaffected.  I almost feel like I have pudding for brains.  I blank out frequently and can't remember what happened last week.  Even a work out doesn't pep me up, so I looked up why that is:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20535998

 

Apparently, it seems like it is the opposite thing.  Maybe there is too much NMDA-like activity in those areas?

 

Is it possible that I am just experiencing an overwhelm of sedation from MAO-A activity (which seems to be in the nM/L affinity range - whereas most neurological or mitochondrial effects occur in the microM/L range) combined with heat shock protein reduction?

 

So, it is not a nootropic in high doses, not for me anyway.  I deem it would be useful in a cocktail of different antixoxidants - like rutin, resveratrol, etc. but more for absorption enhancing and overall antioxidant activity than something of a clinically significant dose.  At the levels found in nature is cool - like in an apple or something.  Having this much circulating quercetin and none of its buddies doesn't seem to be a fun thing.  If Quercetin was a cartoon, it would be Morty's dad (from RIck and Morty) - not a great character alone, but when combined with the rest of the cartoon, it packs a punchline.

 

To test my theory that this is actually what is causing it and not some underlying physical problem that just randomly popped its head up, I'm going to drop it tomorrow and see if I have any more fluidity.

Edited by devinthayer, 24 July 2016 - 01:48 AM.

[Flex]

I´m personally unsure about the effects of Quercetin per se because I read that it´s getting metabolized quickly just like Reservatol.

Given I´m not mistaken with this, it still exerts effects because of the metabolite(s).

[Daniscience]

Oh my god! I hope we clear out this topic.

 

From my understanding, quercetin is good stuff for the body. We in Spain take lots of garlic and onions (and red wine, and olive oil, etc.), our longevity is amongst the best around the world.

 

p.s. a rapid google search "quercetin brain" brings lots of good results. Google says it! lol.

Edited by Daniscience, 27 July 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[thedevinroy]

I dropped it, and after a crazy weekend, my sleep has leveled out last night. I have my energy back, but no drag. Cheese still has a stimulant effect possibly from tyramine, so I am not sure it is quite out of my system yet or if I am just cheesy deficient. Quercetin has a long half life - 17 to 22 hours from what I read. So it takes a while to flush out of your system once you have it built up.

Regarding quercetin from food - not a big deal. Study after study reveals onion extracts high in quercetin are beneficial. Nature has an interesting way of making sure you get the right blend of compounds.

Also, I was taking activated quercetin. That means it has vitamin C and bromelain in it. That combo could be what is making so profound. Quercetin is a toxin, like resveratrol and a lot of other antioxidants. All of this antioxidants talk on how they are good for you always neglects to show a hormetic dose response curve. Your body responds to microdoses of these toxins in a similar fashion as "challenge accepted" and goes to work to make you healthy. Too much and you could cause healthy cells to start contemplating their existence.

Edited by devinthayer, 27 July 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Just to confirm that the Quercetin was the culprit, I took 500mg activated Quercetin today again, once with breakfast and once with lunch. Both times it squeezed the energy right out of me. I couldn't think straight by the time it was time to go home from work. That stuff is the devil in a bottle for me, my anti-elixir. Yesterday and into this morning, I had crazy good energy. I even ran out of Pramiracetam and felt like I didn't even need it. I was creative and fluid and attentive but could switch between topics. An hour after taking the quercetin, I got a serious case of the zombie daze that lasted all day into even right now. Never have I ever blanked out in mid conversation with people on a full night sleep except today and last week... That's how bad it was. Triple thumbs down.

Not opposed to onions or using it to stave off cancer... Just not the activated Quercetin stuff.

I'm really excited for PQQ. That's a true mitochondrial stimulant with some real powerful effects at low doses from what I understand. Anecdotal evidence all points to a human effective dose at 20mg a day pretty much across the board for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by devinthayer, 28 July 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[normalizing]

devinthayer, so you are cheesy deficient? interesting report on quercetin!  it could just be your own reaction to it or it could be the high dose of it and being "activated" form. im still interested to compare to other people experiencing such effects from smaller doses tho.

i used to drink this energy drink FRS containing high dose quercetin; https://www.frs.com/frs-formula

 "FRS uses QU995® (99.5% pure quercetin) which aids the speed and amount of absorption. It is recommended to have 500 - 1000mg of quercetin daily. Each serving of FRS contains 250 – 325mg of quercetin, with two to three servings suggested daily" thats a lot of quercetin!

it does claim30% reduction in mental fatigue, and you know what, it worked for this purpose personal experience here. but then again, it contained other stuff like green tea and a lot of vitamins too so its most likely the combo than singularly the quercetin. perhaps you should try this energy drink and see if quercetin mixed in there works positively or negatively for you ( not promoting it just personal experience with it and it was discontinued in the store i get it so no more for me)

 

also, do you have own thread to report effects from using PQQ, highly interested in your reports on that since i used it before on and off few times, first time i noticed mental energy but it was combined with coffee, and the other few times with doses up to 20mg and more, absolutely nothing. so its kind of difficult to understand that one, really interested in your reports!

[thedevinroy]

I have tried FRS. I liked it, and that's all I can remember. I don't know if I really want to chance it and screw around with something that seems to work maybe in an energy drink but definitely causes problems in an activated pill form:



As far as PPQ goes, we'll see. Took a 20mg pill 20 minutes ago.

[gamesguru]

it has a blunting effect on glutamate (the chief LTP NT), as well higher doses saturate the COMT enzyme... resulting in too much monoamines. in turn, blunted receptor activity at the dopamine and serotonin sites. probably quercetin is a good one to moderate the dose of. i know certain foods, including the purple onion and elderberry (and to a lesser extent most common fruits), make it possible to reach 100mg dietary (50mg is easier). i really don't think 50mg is much, and perhaps the dose-dependence does hold in humans. you can't always extrapolate from mice. as well the CREB-inhibiting bit is interesting. i found out it also lessens glucose metabolism^{[1], [2]}, and generally too much will slow the brain.

 

it may just be me, but i noticed less tolerance to the mast cell/allergy stablizing effects at the lower (dietary) dose. the 300mg capsule, within a month my allergies were back, seemingly worse. but since taking to the "mindful diet", and getting around 120mg from my diet, my allergies have been gone. used to get runny nose, wet eyes, sneezing, general discomfort, sometimes headache. could just be getting older and they went away on their own, which i may have to cut the quercetin out for a month to test that theory.

Edited by gamesguru, 28 July 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Heisok]

Thanks for the explanation gamesguru.

 

I wonder if an additional possibility is the effect on the P450 processes? The possible effect on Statins, and supplements which claim Statin like effects is especially worrisome.

 

 

"Flavonoids are subject to the same metabolic pathways as “classical” xenobiotics. Thus, flavonoids may interfere with the absorption, tissue distribution, metabolism, and excretion of drugs, altering their pharmacokinetics profiles (34). Indeed, many in vitro studies have shown effects of flavonoids on various cytochrome P450 monooxygenase (CYP) isoforms, Phase II conjugation enzymes, and drug transporters [reviewed in (34, 61, 62)]. In addition, flavonoids were able to alter the pharmacokinetics of concurrently administered drugs in some animal models (34)."

A number of studies have shown inhibition of various CYP by flavonoids [reviewed in (34, 61)]. Among the various CYP isoforms (1A2, 2B6, 2C8, 2C9, 2C19, 2D6, 2E1, 3A4, and 3A5), isoforms belonging to the CYP3A subfamily like CYP3A4 and 3A5 play a prominent role. They are the major CYP isoforms in the liver and intestinal tract and are responsible for the metabolism of ∼50% of all prescribed drugs (63, 64). The flavonols quercetin and kaempferol were shown to inhibit the metabolism of the calcium channel blockers nifedipine and felodipine by CYP3A4 in human liver microsomes at concentrations > 10 μmol/L, with the flavanone naringenin being less potent (65). Similar results were obtained in other studies using 17 β-estradiol, felodipine, or nifedipine as substrates for CYP3A4 (65, 66). In addition to the 2 mentioned flavonols, the flavonol myricetin, the flavone apigenin, and the biflavone I3,II8-biapigenin were also reported to inhibit CYP3A4 activity at low micromolar concentrations in human liver microsomes (67)."

 

""Another important drug metabolized by CYP3A4 is the statin simvastatin (SV), a 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl CoA reductase inhibitor primarily used for the treatment of hyperlipidemia."

 

http://advances.nutr...tent/2/1/8.full

 

Edited by Heisok, 28 July 2016 - 06:05 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Metabolism is always a challenge to balance and probably accounts for a good part of synergies. For instance, I take Curcumin which raises certain enzyme levels and inhibits others without raising them. That's not it's main effect, but it's not an effect I tend to consider when trying a new supplement when on Curcumin, even though I should. It's something we should all be careful about and think gets neglected.

In my particular case, Curcumin and Quercetin are often used in combo to reduce inflammation. There may be a possible synergy or interaction there because of their effects on absorption of each other. I know they both exert antidepressant activity which maybe was the culprit for increased feeling of presynaptic serotonin like effect.

Edited by devinthayer, 29 July 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[jack black]

 

I juiced four whole onions (high in Quercetin), a half a pineapple and blueberries and drank it raw on an empty stomach. Honestly, the experience was less than delightful. Never before did i think raw onions could make me feel so out of it. For almost an hour I felt like my brain had stopped working and I was off in a daze. I tested it again by drinking three whole onions and I experienced the same thing. 

 

Your stomach will reject onion juice but if you can get it down you’ll experience hell, so have fun. 

 

 

Wow, I had a similar problem the whole life. If I eat too much of raw onions, it makes me slow, melancholic, and sometimes even depressed with suicidal ideations.  It would last for a day or too.  I never knew why till now. I need to read up how Quercetin works.

 

This forum rocks, BTW. Prior to using this forum i could find nothing by googling, besides some obscure references from a medieval manuscript on plants and herbs.