8 replies to this topic

[Flamebark]

Pre-Supplement Discovery

 

So, all my life I've been this pretty shy, anxious kid. But I knew it wasn't an issue with confidence at all - it was almost as my body and brain were completely different. Sometimes, I would just get nervous for no reason. Trust me when I say this, my perspective on life was pretty okay. I've learnt to not care about what people think and blah blah. And I would do weird things and not feel embarrassed. So you could say I was "pretty confident". BUT. In certain situations, my body would just get nervous while my brain would be totally calm. My heartbeat would increase and I may shake a bit but my mind would uber calm. 

 

I know it doesn't make any sense, since you're all probably like: "Well... your brain controls your body which is reacting to the environment so that's so not possible". Well, just keep reading. 

 

Also, on top of that, one day - out of no where - when I was 15, I just couldn't talk properly. I couldn't access words easily as I used to be able to. I would know what I want to say but my verbal fluency just dropped like boulder. I would always slip up words and get my grammar wrong. "E.g. Cool, be lucky" (I meant "Be grateful [because you're lucky]") It would happen quite a lot. And I would find it hard to articulate my thoughts and string one beautiful verbal sentence together.

 

4 years later, and it's still a problem. It just happened. Now, THIS was my main concern. Because in text (instant-messaging) I was pretty conversational with people - I would always know what to say and have awesome conversations. But when speaking, it's like there was barrier between my brain and my mouth and the words just couldn't come through. 

 

But sometimes they would. Sometimes, I would open my mouth and a tsunami of words would pour out. And I would just be a social whirl. It was totally random. 

 

So I knew there was something wrong with my biology. Whatever the problem was, it was not due to something I could change via behavioural methods - e.g. change my thought patterns etc. Because they were already fine. 

 

The Discovery

 

So then I stumbled into the world of supplements. Tried Noopept; no changes. Tried pramacitam; noticeable changes in verbal fluency the barrier between my mouth and my brain was kinda gone everytime I was on it. But sooner or later, I developed tolerance + that drug was so expensive. And it didn't really help my "automatically-getting-nervous" problem.

 

So I gave up on racetams. They were pretty much useless. 

 

And then I stumbled on 5-HTP supplements. NOW THIS CHANGED MY LIFE. I found out, that the main problem I had was my serotonin levels. 5-HTP raised them and boom. My mood shot up and I felt confident, and normal, and great. I just wouldn't get nervous. I would no longer feel inferior. Along with that, my verbal fluency issues were gone. The barrier between my brain and mouth was completely destroyed - I would say things like I would when typing. I just felt like...  me. It was kinda like freedom. Before I felt restricted. But after taking them, I felt like myself. I wouldn't get nervous in front of people and talk to them like they're equal (not superior). But it was a different effect tham pramarcitam because after taking 5-HTP, things would just come naturally to me. Witty words would fly into my brain and I would just say them. I would always have something to say in response to every statement.  It was awesome.

 

 

My Downfall

 

So 5-htp supplements worked for quite a while; roughly a month. And I'm still on them. But after about a month, I didn't lose the effects of anxiety. I still feel very composed and confident. But I noticed a little decrease in mood - I no longer felt happy and content like I did for a month. I didn't feel depressed - I just didn't feel happy. Which was fine. BUT WHAT REALLY ANNOYED ME was that my little silver tongue was gone. My verbal fluency. I wouldn't have a reply to every statement anymore! I was back in that state when someone talks to me, in my head I would be searching for what to say next and end up with nothing. But at least, when I did want to say something, I could still articulate it perfectly well without getting grammar wrong etc etc.

 

Yeah no, but then I did some research and it turns out you had to take 5-HTP with L-Tyrosine or it'll deplete dopamine levels. That explains that decrease in mood. So I whizzed to Holland and Barrett and got my self 500mg L-Tyrosine and chucked it at my throat as soon as I got home. First thing I did was laugh like crazy. Yeah, my mood had definitely improved. BUT then it felt like my thoughts were just racing in my head. Almost, as if I was too happy and excited and I couldn't compose a single sentence because I wasn't calm enough. But that faded away with time, I still felt happy.

 

But after that, my verbal fluency was gone. Idk what it was. It went back to how it was. Now I slip up between words and get them confused and I genuinely feel like my head is locked in a cage again. I can't say what I want to because I can't retrieve the right words to match my thoughts. Even now, when I talk to myself - I just can't find accurate words and would just pause and reach a dead end in the middle of a sentence. My verbal skills are lost. AND I CANNOT HAVE THAT.

 

I have tasted verbal freedom and there is no way I'm letting it slip right out of my hands.

 

So my friends, I need another supplement to get my verbal skills (and my life) back on track. Any suggestions? Should I stop with L-Tyrosine? Take it at a different time? Help?

[Flex]

firstly I´m not a doc and anyway take everthing from every one with a grain of salt.

 

Ok, so I´ve read that 5-ht2a receptors decrease presynaptically the release of dopamine in the Mesocortical dopamine system,

but increases it in the subcortical i.e. Mesolimbic system.

Thats why for schizophrenia related negative symptoms drugs like Trazodone gets perscribed or at least as an Add-on.

 

Conversely the 5-ht2c does, more or less, the opposite.

and btw makes me very anxious when taking Trazodone,

because it blocks the 2a much more than 2c and therefore leading to the propensity of rather 2c activation than 2a.

And that my affect due to THC consumption in the adolescence is perresistent low and that antagonsim of those receptors didnt work for me that much.

 

So You could maybe, either stop the 5-ht ingestion for a certain time and/or try a 5-ht2a or 2a/c antagonist like Mitrazepine, Cyproheptadine or Trazodone

 

Just Btw:

Both receptors share a special property which makes them difficult to downregulate, afaik due to internalisation/insertion via a certain mechanism.

 

 

Edited by Flex, 29 May 2014 - 03:29 PM.

[adamh]

You say you gave up on racetams after trying pramiracetam. There are many racetams in the stable, you only tried one. You might want to try aniracetam and or piracetam. They are good for long term benefit, use with a choline source. Another good one is coluracetam, its fairly new but not expensive since you don't need a lot. It gives you an instant mood boost and verbal fluency along with improved concentration and a few other benefits. 

 

You may be expecting too much in a pill, substances are not going to be a magic cure for everything even though at times they may seem that way. Practice in speaking with people will go a long way. Try doing some public speaking, if you are using piracetam, or the shorter acting coluracetam, you will do well and that gives confidence. Keep practicing even when you don't feel really up to it and you will gain skills. Check out your diet and make sure you are getting good nutrition. Do you take any vitamins or supplements?

[ElijahD]

Sounds like a classic case of Flowers for Algernon.

[pheanix997]

Sounds like a classic case of Flowers for Algernon.

Could you elaborate? Lol. 

[Introspecta]

How about 5htp one day. L-tyrosine the next to keep things in balance... I know if you take them together they will fight....I'm not sure if its ok to take one in morning and one at night... But it also sounds like you've become somewhat tolerant to 5htp so possibly give that a break for a while. Maybe use L-trptophan instead? Mix it up and try to get a balance but remember to cycle because we become tolerant to pretty much everything.

[Lobotomy]

 

Sounds like a classic case of Flowers for Algernon.

Could you elaborate? Lol. 

 

 

Just read the book. I thought it was required reading in most schools.

Edited by Lobotomy, 30 May 2014 - 11:54 PM.

[Ames]

Taking L-Tyrosine ostensibly to boost dopamine levels because 5HTP is no longer working for you is bro-science of the worst sort. That recommendation is born of an over-simplification of your complex brain and body chemistry. Moreover, to this date, I've never encountered evidence that any type of direct dopamine boosting strategy was either long-term safe nor effective.

5HTP and melatonin, on the other hand, has been shown to preserve motor neurons and slow motor neuron diseases such as ALS. It is very possible that 5HTP ultimately works for depression by protecting dopaminergic neurons or otherwise up-regulating dopaminergic tone; likely through an indirect mechanism that causes the brain to up-regulate and protect dopamine in response to serotonin overload.

A decrease in exogenous melatonin effectiveness has been shown to be a result of a change in liver enzymes to slow melatonin's metabolism. I'd assume that the same mechanism may very well also come into play with 5HTP. The cure would likely be to lower the dose of 5HTP or give yourself a complete break from it. Another strategy would be to move to a dosing schedule that is not every day. You may see a decrease in tolerance with one of these strategies.

If you are looking for a counter-balancing strategy, toward decreasing 5HTP tolerance, my intuition would be to instead try stimulating NMDA receptors instead of direct dopamine precursor supplementation. Racetams are too indirect because they are modulators not agonists and, so, they likely wouldn't cause the robust resensitizing effect that you are after toward making 5HTP effective once again. Also, in my opinion, racetmas are largely garbage because the potential side effect profile is too high for the small benefit that they may provide; at least for people with any type of neuropathology. I would instead try a Glycine reuptake inhibitor such as Sarcosine or possibly Dimethylglycine or Trimethylglycine. The latter two are much easier to attain and should provide sarcosine to your system once metabolized. Remember, like dopamine agonists, NMDA agonists are potentially neurotoxic after a specific threshold is crossed. Under that threshold, NMDA agonists should provide depression relief, increase alertness, increase learning and memory, and counter the symptoms of schizophrenia (which is often induced through chronic dimethyltryptamine overdose - which leads me to guess that NMDA agonists may also be effective for reducing tryptophan [5HTP] and tryptamine [melatonin] tolerance). Though, sufficient melatonin and sleep should work well to counter potential neurotoxicity. TMG should also theoretically assist in detoxifying your liver and, after use, you may then see increased ability to again metabolize your 5HTP. You may find a significant synergy between 5HTP supplementation altered with glycine reuptake inhibitor supplementation. This is hypothesis. Though, I may soon also try a similar regimen.

Just my thoughts.

Edited by golgi1, 09 August 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[thises]

Taking L-Tyrosine ostensibly to boost dopamine levels because 5HTP is no longer working for you is bro-science of the worst sort. That recommendation is born of an over-simplification of your complex brain and body chemistry. Moreover, to this date, I've never encountered evidence that any type of direct dopamine boosting strategy was either long-term safe nor effective.

5HTP and melatonin, on the other hand, has been shown to preserve motor neurons and slow motor neuron diseases such as ALS. It is very possible that 5HTP ultimately works for depression by protecting dopaminergic neurons or otherwise up-regulating dopaminergic tone; likely through an indirect mechanism that causes the brain to up-regulate and protect dopamine in response to serotonin overload.

A decrease in exogenous melatonin effectiveness has been shown to be a result of a change in liver enzymes to slow melatonin's metabolism. I'd assume that the same mechanism may very well also come into play with 5HTP. The cure would likely be to lower the dose of 5HTP or give yourself a complete break from it. Another strategy would be to move to a dosing schedule that is not every day. You may see a decrease in tolerance with one of these strategies.

If you are looking for a counter-balancing strategy, toward decreasing 5HTP tolerance, my intuition would be to instead try stimulating NMDA receptors instead of direct dopamine precursor supplementation. Racetams are too indirect because they are modulators not agonists and, so, they likely wouldn't cause the robust resensitizing effect that you are after toward making 5HTP effective once again. Also, in my opinion, racetmas are largely garbage because the potential side effect profile is too high for the small benefit that they may provide; at least for people with any type of neuropathology. I would instead try a Glycine reuptake inhibitor such as Sarcosine or possibly Dimethylglycine or Trimethylglycine. The latter two are much easier to attain and should provide sarcosine to your system once metabolized. Remember, like dopamine agonists, NMDA agonists are potentially neurotoxic after a specific threshold is crossed. Under that threshold, NMDA agonists should provide depression relief, increase alertness, increase learning and memory, and counter the symptoms of schizophrenia (which is often induced through chronic dimethyltryptamine overdose - which leads me to guess that NMDA agonists may also be effective for reducing tryptophan [5HTP] and tryptamine [melatonin] tolerance). Though, sufficient melatonin and sleep should work well to counter potential neurotoxicity. TMG should also theoretically assist in detoxifying your liver and, after use, you may then see increased ability to again metabolize your 5HTP. You may find a significant synergy between 5HTP supplementation altered with glycine reuptake inhibitor supplementation. This is hypothesis. Though, I may soon also try a similar regimen.

Just my thoughts.

 

I agree dopamine boosting i think is dangerous.