18 replies to this topic

[pi-]

Hello community,

 

I found this forum while googling for information on some compound, and it appears there are people here who know what they're talking about.

 

I'm attempting to teach myself perfect pitch. I've been working on this for five years, developing computer training games.

 

I believe I'm now very close; I finally have an architecture that I believe can train this ability. The next step is several months of training with this system, and I'm looking for a sensible nootropic stack that will put my brain in an optimal state for the new learning that will be taking place.

 

I have found various Products documented such as the racetam family, noopept, sunifiram, etc. But it is difficult to make an intelligent choice. I'm leaning towards buying a small bag every kind of powder I can get my hands on and trying them one at a time. I don't really like the idea of this as you really need a proper controlled experiment involving many subjects and a lot of time to determine the effectiveness of a compound.

 

So maybe if I can narrow the list down a little, this would help me hugely.

 

So, if anyone can recommend any particular compound, please do so!

 

pi

 

PS let us say for the purpose of this topic, that perfect pitch is the ability to recognise and produce any note on demand, without any kind of calculation. To memorise a note.

[bracconiere]

hmmm, I'd say for focus to write a program, adrafinil.

[pi-]

Just this week I am setting out rewriting my game using a new technology (Juce, a multiplatform C++ framework) and I'm very interested in the idea of constructing a stack that well help me cope with loading a whole new framework into my brain.

 

So I am very interested in possible answers to this.

 

But the core question is about optimising for training the game.

 

If I may give an example: I plug in headphones and close my eyes. I hear a 3-note chord.  I have to use my pitch memory to tease out the notes.

 

Just like dropping ink on chromatography paper and seeing the different coloured rings, I have to train myself to hear the constituent flavours.

 

The aim of this is to force my brain to create a long-term memory of each note.

[bracconiere]

Yeah, well I tried the racetam's they didn't pack much punch...I'd recommend DMAA, but they decided it was bad for people, so adrafinil is the only mental stimulant in the grey market that's worth a damn....

[nat]

Sodium valproate has been indicated in the acquisition of perfect pitch, but I believe the study's conclusions were specious. [Can't post links yet, not enough posts. PubMed article is entitled "Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pitch."]

 

Anecdotally: I had 50% no-context note recognition as a child, took valproate for migraines in high school, and recent self tests have shown my no-context note recognition is ~75%. But I've also taken all sorts of nootropics in the mean time.

 

The past week of NSI-189 in particular has been very effective with respect to my piano ability. See my post near the bottom of page 70 of the NSI-189 thread for details on that. I suspect that it and other hippocampal growth agents like semax, tianeptine and noopept all have a positive effect on the recall/recognition of individual notes, polyphonic relationships and musical superstructures (motifs, themes, etc.). I'm very excited to test this hypothesis further.

[pi-]

Fascinating reply, thanks 123!

 

50% is an unusual score. Does this mean you correctly identified 50% of notes?  Usually it is close to 0 or close to 100. The problem is that once you have one note, you have to be careful that your mind is not throwing the result by calculating or estimating the current note from the previous answer.

 

I know a 14-year-old boy who can identify the white notes instantly but struggles with black notes. As far as I can see he has latent AP. His mother is a professional pianist, and he would've heard musical tones while in the womb. My guess is that early recorder lessons have focused on the white notes, and hence he has converted these into complete concepts. Do you think something like this may explain your scores?

 

How did you get hold of NSI-189?

 

And have you tried Pramiracetam? From a couple of days of looking through the Internet, I got the idea that Ani/Prami-racetam together with a Choline source might be a good way to go.

 

PS I also couldn't see any clear result from that article; it seemed as though they were deliberately obfuscating their results. However, it is looks as though it is written by someone who is at the cutting edge of AP research.

[nat]

50% is an unusual score. Does this mean you correctly identified 50% of notes?  Usually it is close to 0 or close to 100. The problem is that once you have one note, you have to be careful that your mind is not throwing the result by calculating or estimating the current note from the previous answer.

 

I know a 14-year-old boy who can identify the white notes instantly but struggles with black notes. As far as I can see he has latent AP. His mother is a professional pianist, and he would've heard musical tones while in the womb. My guess is that early recorder lessons have focused on the white notes, and hence he has converted these into complete concepts. Do you think something like this may explain your scores?

 

Possibly, though maybe to do with timbre, not pitch. Timbre would, in that sense, represent a form of "context", so my recognition would not be purely "no-context". I'd have to test, but I suspect that my musical memory is heavily tied to piano, guitar and a few specific analog synth sounds -- each note's particular combo of harmonic overtones providing vital hints. Though a few notes I can always identify: Gb, Bb, C. I can hear them in my head without issue, in any instrument. Presumably the rest of my recognition is in-the-moment calculation of pitch relative to those.

 

How did you get hold of NSI-189?

 

Purposefully.

 

And have you tried Pramiracetam? From a couple of days of looking through the Internet, I got the idea that Ani/Prami-racetam together with a Choline source might be a good way to go.

 

Prami is the only racetam I haven't tried! Wasn't a fan of ani at all, so I never bothered to check if it had any musical effects. I'll sometimes take noopept before playing piano or doing something else aesthetic, as it seems to enhance those sorts of experiences in general.

[pi-]

I've read from multiple sources that different individuals are resistant to different members of the racetam family; apparently 30% of the population is entirely resistant to one of them.

[pi-]

I've been having a hard time sourcing Sodium Valproate. With a doctor's prescription it is readily available at < 10c per pill. But without, it is over a dollar per pill and I can't find any obvious reputable source.

 

Can anyone suggest a source?

 

PS I've done some reading up on it, and I'm aware that it has some potential side-effects, most notably for pregnant women. I guess this is the reason it is prescription only. However, as a 35 year old man I think I should be reasonably safe trying it out for a month.

 

PPS Seeing as I am planning to dose up, perform a specific learning task and then stop dosing, I will probably be much less prone to side-effects habitual users experience.

[Duchykins]

I remember this exact question being asked on drugs-forum. My answer is the same, perfect pitch cannot be learned by adults. You can rigorously train yourself to a higher degree of accuracy but you will never acquire perfect pitch.

[pi-]

@Duchykins, Upon what authority do you state that AP cannot be learned?

 

If your answer is along the lines of "because nobody has yet succeeded, therefore it cannot be done" then that carries no weight. Fermat's Last Theorem stood unsolved for several hundred years, and I'm sure a great many people along the way said with authority "It cannot be done!"

 

I'm interested to hear the logic behind your assertion.

[ModaMinds]

If you are developing a system that is intended, I assume, to teach numerous people pitch recognition, would it not make more sense to use your training game in the same environment that its users will be in? As such, the vast majority of users will not be using nootropics to assist in learning pitch, so it would make far more sense to validate the integrity of your system by also not using nootropics.

 

Not that I'm against nootropics, but you can't accurately tell others that your game teaches pitch recognition in x amount of time, or that it even teaches it at all, if your learning was assisted by substances that most of your users won't be using.

 

I know a 14-year-old boy who can identify the white notes instantly but struggles with black notes. As far as I can see he has latent AP. His mother is a professional pianist, and he would've heard musical tones while in the womb. My guess is that early recorder lessons have focused on the white notes, and hence he has converted these into complete concepts.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by black/white notes? In a staff, the notes only change color depending on their duration. Any note that is a quarter note or less will be black...it doesn't matter what note it is. Unless you mean the black/white keys on a piano?

Edited by ModaMinds, 28 June 2014 - 10:21 PM.

[Duchykins]

That same line of reasoning justifies belief in fairies, because they haven't been proven not to exist. Or that humans can possibly make themselves levitate by thinking about it, because science cannot 'prove 100%' that we cannot acquire such an ability.

Absolute pitch is strongly related to youth development and genetics. This stuff about learning perfect pitch is encouraged by people trying to sell programs claimed to teach it, and of course people will believe it which is hysterical. It's like the stuff where people think they can be trained to use the 'other 90%' of the brain we 'don't use'.

[pi-]

Yes, Black/White keys on a keyboard.

 

Your point is very valid, and every day I'm weighing up whether to go with nootropics or continue training 'naturally'.

 

The arguments for and against balance, making it a difficult decision.

 

If I succeed with nootropics, in the eyes of many/most this will invalidate the attainment to some degree.  However, as no adult has yet succeeded, I could train until the sand has run through the glass and not succeed.

 

My feeling is that if I use every help available I will maximise my chance of success. And it is by no means guaranteed even with all the help in the world. So I would do well to do this. If I do succeed it will create a path that others may follow, as there is nothing special about my brain. Is just a middle-aged human brain. And then people can go about tuning the technique, isolating compounds in the stack, modifying the training games, etc.

[pi-]

@Dutchykins, you don't seem to be bringing anything useful to the table; all I am hearing is someone's opinion.

 

If you were to talk about the critical period of synaptic plasticity and recent developments in neuroscience that temporarily reopen this window, or documented evidence of children up to the age of 13 acquiring this skill, or the neurological mechanisms that underlie our perception of pitch, or really anything that is based on information/experimentation/logic, then we would have something meaningful to discuss.

 

If you can show compelling logic that this endeavour is futile then that would be of value.  I've been researching this phenomenon for five years. It is possible you may have some vantage-point, information or understanding that I lack. If so, pray enlighten me. I live for the enlightenment!

 

But if you are doing nothing more than using this thread as a vehicle for reaffirming your own reality-model, where is the benefit?  Even to yourself, what is the benefit?

[Duchykins]

You asked a question on the assumed premise that absolute pitch can be learned by adults and you got an answer. You assert it can be learned, I merely contradicted that. I do not have a greater burden of evidence than you as you insinuate. I suppose what I could have done is ask you to demonstrate that it has been be learned in the great span of time people have been trying to acquire it. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I thought people prided themselves on their intellects around here too much to resort to such tawdry common folk logic as yours.

It does not help people to make them think they can learn such a thing because then they are likelier to buy products or services claiming to be able to teach one this ability. It defrauds people of their money and even more valuable time, and when they fail to acquire perfection many will internalize this as a personal failure, even if they don't say it to themselves consciously, it will mean they are lesser than others if they cannot acheive what (is implied) others can by following directions and simply working hard enough. I think that is worse than prompting people to give their money to liars. This is no different than speaking out against snake oil and other predatory salesmen, because that's exactly what this is.


If I hadn't said anything, other people reading your OP would come away with the impression that learning absolute pitch is something that has been done before, and done repeatedly, and perhaps can be something they could spend time learning. I merely corrected that. You, sir, came asking for recommendations about chemicals that can help you learn absolute pitch, AS IF ANYONE has special knowledge of this based on 1) someone learning absolute pitch before, 2) someone used X chemical to help them learn it or any musical ability, and 3) someone published a paper on it. You've been 'researching' this for 5 years and you're only just now trying to learn it? Who here will believe that? Is it more likely you've been trying to learn it for 5 years with little success?


** There is no T in my name, please pay attention.

Edited by Duchykins, 30 June 2014 - 01:57 AM.

[pi-]

Much as I love a good argument on the Internet, I would prefer to keep this thread on topic.

 

If anybody is interested in AP research or would like to know of my own methods and progress, please feel welcome to PM me.

 

Or Dutchykins maybe, as he seems to have all the answers

[Eliot Cloud]

Have you had any success OP? More than anything I'd like to be able to acquire perfect absolute pitch. M 24.

[psych0therapist]

Much as I love a good argument on the Internet, I would prefer to keep this thread on topic.

 

If anybody is interested in AP research or would like to know of my own methods and progress, please feel welcome to PM me.

 

Or Dutchykins maybe, as he seems to have all the answers

 

Moving on, the best suggestion I have is to try various Racetams, as those have worked best for me and seem to augment my auditory perception uniquely depending on which I use as a 'tool.' YMMV, but for me, Aniracetam and Coluracetam has been most profound in this regard, as has Piracetam at times. 

Edited by psych0therapist, 07 October 2018 - 12:08 AM.