78 replies to this topic

[chemicalambrosia]

 

 

For some reason, the mainstream media decided to focus on the work of Gibson recently, e.g.:


A grain of truth to gluten intolerance
http://www.smh.com.a...0527-zrpb3.html
 

 

Thanks. This seems in good accordance with the Italian study posted above: Gluten sensitivity does exist, but it is relatively rare und unlike celiac disease rather benign (i.e. causes mostly some gastrointestinal discomfort - it is not the cause of obesity, depression, heart disease, cancer, AIDS and the civil wars in the Near East, as some people would make you believe). In this study only 8% of the subjects with self-reported gluten sensitivity showed some limited gluten-specific response, which agrees with the notion that most (>90%) of the "anti-gluten trend" is indeed a hysteria.
 

It is an interesting observation, however, that FODMAPs proved to have a much stronger and reproducable effect. This suggest that most people suffering from "gluten sensitivity" actually have a dysbiosis, as I have always suggested:

 

The answer to all the emerging food sensitivities and allergies - except for the most severe cases - can't be to avoid all the foods triggering them or else people would deprive themselves of many of the healthiest foods available, but to avoid refined, processed and manufactured junk food full of calories but devoid of phytonutrients. I'm pretty sure that a healthy diet rich in phytonutrients and prebiotics will sufficiently improve people's gut flora to overcome the vast majority of modern-day, SAD-induced food sensitivities.

 

 

 

I've made a pretty long term effort to eat healthy, even though I've had a bad diet and drank excessively in the past. However, it seems a number of foods still consistently make me bloated and gassy. I am close to to cutting a lot of things almost entirely out of my diet even though they are theoretically healthy. Your post sounds really good in theory, but in practice I might decide to keep my servings of oatmeal, broccoli, and brown rice(etc) few and far between. Maybe guts can be ruined forever...
 

[Dani46]

I tried gluten free 2 times, both times my keratosis pilaris almost dispersed to nothing, but thats about it when it come to benefits.

 

When I eat stuff with gluten I get more inflammation/acne in my hair follicles, but man I feel mentally a lot better.

 

 

[DAMI]

Timar what is your take on gluten increasing intestinal permeability? Dont you agree that this is a bad think? http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/16635908/

[timar]

Yes, I agree it is a "bad think". Ah, sorry for the pun, but to suggest that in vitro studies such as this allow for any meaningful conclusion regarding the effect of normal dietary gluten intake in non-celiac, non gluten-sensitive poeple is fundamentally flawed. Such studies are conducted to to elucidate the pathogenesis of celiac disease - they are neither intended nor adequate to show toxic effects of gluten per se, even if authors promoting guten-free fas diets of course like to (mis)interpret them in that way. I bet there is a myriad of compounds found in a perfectly healthy diet you can soak intestinal cell lines with in a petri dish and observe an increased intestinal permeability. To be on the safe side, though, one should not try to mimic the petri dish conditions in vivo and not eat a diet mostly comprised of wheat protein isolate...

Edited by timar, 23 October 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[Darryl]

Lots of things appear to increase intestinal permeability. I think a focus the gluten component of grains alone, without also considering the effect of grain prebiotics (like inulin and oligosaccharides) in improving microbiota and reducing intestinal permeability, is misleading. 

 

For example, high saturated fat meals, high fructose diets, and alcohol all appear to increase intestinal permeability to endotoxins from gram-negative gut bacteria, in both human and animal studies. Given the close association of endotoxemia with chronic inflammation, oxidative stress and disease risk, these sorts of studies should be a core concern for students of longevity.

 

For SFAs and intestinal permeability, see:

 

Erridge, C., Attina, T., Spickett, C. M., & Webb, D. J. (2007). A high-fat meal induces low-grade endotoxemia: evidence of a novel mechanism of postprandial inflammation. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 86(5), 1286-1292.

Ma, X., Hua, J., Mohamood, A. R., Hamad, A. R. A., Ravi, R., & Li, Z. (2007). A high‐fat diet and regulatory T cells influence susceptibility to endotoxin‐induced liver injury. Hepatology, 46(5), 1519-1529.

Ghoshal, S., Witta, J., Zhong, J., De Villiers, W., & Eckhardt, E. (2009). Chylomicrons promote intestinal absorption of lipopolysaccharides. Journal of lipid research, 50(1), 90-97.

Ghanim, H., Abuaysheh, S., Sia, C. L., Korzeniewski, K., Chaudhuri, A., Fernandez-Real, J. M., & Dandona, P. (2009). Increase in plasma endotoxin concentrations and the expression of toll-like receptors and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3 in mononuclear cells after a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal implications for insulin resistance. Diabetes care, 32(12), 2281-2287.

Suzuki, T., & Hara, H. (2010). Dietary fat and bile juice, but not obesity, are responsible for the increase in small intestinal permeability induced through the suppression of tight junction protein expression in LETO and OLETF rats. Nutr Metab (Lond), 7(1), 19.

Rabot, S., Membrez, M., Bruneau, A., Gérard, P., Harach, T., Moser, M., ... & Chou, C. J. (2010). Germ-free C57BL/6J mice are resistant to high-fat-diet-induced insulin resistance and have altered cholesterol metabolism. The FASEB Journal, 24(12), 4948-4959.

Erridge, C. (2011). Diet, commensals and the intestine as sources of pathogen-associated molecular patterns in atherosclerosis, type 2 diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. Atherosclerosis, 216(1), 1-6.

Laugerette, F., Vors, C., Géloën, A., Chauvin, M. A., Soulage, C., Lambert-Porcheron, S., ... & Michalski, M. C. (2011). Emulsified lipids increase endotoxemia: possible role in early postprandial low-grade inflammation. The Journal of nutritional biochemistry, 22(1), 53-59.

Pendyala, S., Walker, J. M., & Holt, P. R. (2012). A high-fat diet is associated with endotoxemia that originates from the gut. Gastroenterology, 142(5), 1100-1101.

Kim, K. A., Gu, W., Lee, I. A., Joh, E. H., & Kim, D. H. (2012). High fat diet-induced gut microbiota exacerbates inflammation and obesity in mice via the TLR4 signaling pathway. PLoS One, 7(10), e47713.

Harte, A. L., Varma, M. C., Tripathi, G., McGee, K. C., Al-Daghri, N. M., Al-Attas, O. S., ... & McTernan, P. G. (2012). High fat intake leads to acute postprandial exposure to circulating endotoxin in type 2 diabetic subjects.Diabetes care, 35(2), 375-382.

Shrestha, U. K. (2012). High-fat diet is associated with endotoxemia and low-grade inflammation. Nepal Journal of Medical Sciences, 1(2), 62-63.

Laugerette, F., Furet, J. P., Debard, C., Daira, P., Loizon, E., Géloën, A., ... & Michalski, M. C. (2012). Oil composition of high-fat diet affects metabolic inflammation differently in connection with endotoxin receptors in mice.American Journal of Physiology-Endocrinology and Metabolism, 302(3), E374-E386.

Mani, V., Hollis, J. H., & Gabler, N. K. (2013). Dietary oil composition differentially modulates intestinal endotoxin transport and postprandial endotoxemia. Nutr Metab, 10(6).

Ghosh, S. S., Bie, J., Wang, J., & Ghosh, S. (2014). Oral supplementation with non-absorbable antibiotics or curcumin attenuates western diet-induced atherosclerosis and glucose intolerance in LDLR−/− mice–role of intestinal permeability and macrophage activation. PloS one, 9(9), e108577.

 

For high-fructose diets and intestinal permeability, see:

 

Bergheim, I., Weber, S., Vos, M., Krämer, S., Volynets, V., Kaserouni, S., ... & Bischoff, S. C. (2008). Antibiotics protect against fructose-induced hepatic lipid accumulation in mice: role of endotoxin. Journal of hepatology, 48(6), 983-992.

Thuy, S., Ladurner, R., Volynets, V., Wagner, S., Strahl, S., Königsrainer, A., ... & Bergheim, I. (2008). Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in humans is associated with increased plasma endotoxin and plasminogen activator inhibitor 1 concentrations and with fructose intake. The Journal of Nutrition, 138(8), 1452-1455.

Spruss, A., Kanuri, G., Wagnerberger, S., Haub, S., Bischoff, S. C., & Bergheim, I. (2009). Toll‐like receptor 4 is involved in the development of fructose‐induced hepatic steatosis in mice. Hepatology, 50(4), 1094-1104.

Spruss, A., & Bergheim, I. (2009). Dietary fructose and intestinal barrier: potential risk factor in the pathogenesis of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. The Journal of nutritional biochemistry, 20(9), 657-662.

Volynets, V., Spruss, A., Kanuri, G., Wagnerberger, S., Bischoff, S. C., & Bergheim, I. (2010). Protective effect of bile acids on the onset of fructose-induced hepatic steatosis in mice. Journal of lipid research, 51(12), 3414-3424.

Spruss, A., Kanuri, G., Stahl, C., Bischoff, S. C., & Bergheim, I. (2012). Metformin protects against the development of fructose-induced steatosis in mice: role of the intestinal barrier function. Laboratory Investigation, 92(7), 1020-1032.

Kavanagh, K., Wylie, A. T., Tucker, K. L., Hamp, T. J., Gharaibeh, R. Z., Fodor, A. A., & Cullen, J. M. (2013). Dietary fructose induces endotoxemia and hepatic injury in calorically controlled primates. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 98(2), 349-357.

 

For alcohol, see:

 

Bode, C., & Bode, J. C. (2005). Activation of the innate immune system and alcoholic liver disease: effects of ethanol per se or enhanced intestinal translocation of bacterial toxins induced by ethanol?. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, 29(s2), 166S-171S.

 

Supplementation with the prebiotics inulin and oligofructose, selective feeds for beneficial bifidobacteria, appears to displace pathogenic strains in the gut, reduce intestinal permeability to endotoxins, or both.

 

Cani, P. D., Neyrinck, A. M., Fava, F., Knauf, C., Burcelin, R. G., Tuohy, K. M., ... & Delzenne, N. M. (2007). Selective increases of bifidobacteria in gut microflora improve high-fat-diet-induced diabetes in mice through a mechanism associated with endotoxaemia. Diabetologia, 50(11), 2374-2383.

Cani, P. D., Bibiloni, R., Knauf, C., Waget, A., Neyrinck, A. M., Delzenne, N. M., & Burcelin, R. (2008). Changes in gut microbiota control metabolic endotoxemia-induced inflammation in high-fat diet–induced obesity and diabetes in mice. Diabetes, 57(6), 1470-1481.

Neyrinck, A. M., Van Hee, V. F., Piront, N., De Backer, F., Toussaint, O., Cani, P. D., & Delzenne, N. M. (2012). Wheat-derived arabinoxylan oligosaccharides with prebiotic effect increase satietogenic gut peptides and reduce metabolic endotoxemia in diet-induced obese mice. Nutrition & diabetes, 2(1), e28.

Dehghan, P., Gargari, B. P., Jafar-Abadi, M. A., & Aliasgharzadeh, A. (2013). Inulin controls inflammation and metabolic endotoxemia in women with type 2 diabetes mellitus: a randomized-controlled clinical trial. International journal of food sciences and nutrition, 65(1), 117-123.

 

Where do we get inulin and oligofructose in our diet? 25% comes from onions (and other Allium), and 70% comes from wheat.

 

Moshfegh, A. J., Friday, J. E., Goldman, J. P., & Ahuja, J. K. C. (1999). Presence of inulin and oligofructose in the diets of Americans. The Journal of nutrition, 129(7), 1407S-1411s.

 

All of the prebiotics that beneficially alter the gut microbiota (inulin, oligofructose, galacto-oligosaccharides and lactulose) are in the now maligned FODMAPS category. I fear that a premature demonization of FODMAPs, as with gluten, will worsen gut microbiota, intestinal permeability, and disease risk in the media susceptible.

 

Edited by Darryl, 23 October 2014 - 07:33 PM.

[timar]

Thanks for sharing all those references Darryl - your posts are often actual mini-reviews

 

I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Gluten is not the enemy, nor are FODMAPs - at least for the large majority of people. To the contrary, avoiding gluten, and particularly avoiding FODMAPs is likely to be detrimental in the long term, even if it may provide short-term relief for some people. As I wrote before, intolerance of FODMAPs is indicative of intestinal dysbiosis (it's not a coincidence that it is often experienced by long-term Paleo dieters). To avoid food containing FODMAPs will only further aggravate the dysbiosis. If you are untrained and exercise causes sore muscles, you can either avoid all exercise or gradually increase exercise intensity - what option do you think will be more supportive to your health? The same is true for FODMAPs - if you are not accustomed to them, because you have eaten a bad diet for a long time or otherwise aquired a dysbiosis, gradually introduce them into your diet and allow the microflora to adapt and improve.

 

I doubt that anyone accustomed to a healthy whole-food, predominantly plant-based diet and not suffering from celiac or inflammatory bowel disease will have a problem with the gluten from whole grains, let alone with FODMAPs from grains, legumes and vegetables - which are in fact highly beneficial prebiotics. To be on the safe side with gluten, though, I would suggest to avoid saitan and refined wheat products (except pasta made from durum wheat, which has a protein composition that seems to be less problematic than that of bread wheat).

Edited by timar, 23 October 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[Dolph]

Thanks for sharing all those references Darryl - your posts are often actual mini-reviews

 

 

Yeah, really amazing. 

[Darryl]

Brief followup. For those curious about where the arabinoxylan winds up, here's the percentage content in these roller mill products.

 

bran: 21.01% (0.72% water extractable)

whole wheat: 6.78% (0.51% we)

germ: 5.61% (0.37% we)

white flour: 2.01% (0.44% we)

 

As the gluten is obviously distributed more evenly through the fractions (otherwise bread wouldn't hold a shape), clearly the bran portion has about 10x the prebiotics per portion gluten as white flour, though only about 63% more if only considering water extractable arabinoxylan. From:

 

Dornez, E., Gebruers, K., Wiame, S., Delcour, J. A., & Courtin, C. M. (2006). Insight into the distribution of arabinoxylans, endoxylanases, and endoxylanase inhibitors in industrial wheat roller mill streams. Journal of agricultural and food chemistry, 54(22), 8521-8529.

Edited by Darryl, 24 October 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[DAMI]

Even if gluten was not the problem, there seems to be something in Whole Wheat (notably not refined wheat!) that raises LDL-C in people with Apoe 3/3 (the majority of the population), so maybe it's still better for most people to avoid wheat? http://www.nutrition.../content/7/1/37

[TheFountain]

Yo, furthermore how much of this can we attribute to Gliadin protein or glutenin protein? 

 

This question would be kinda pertinent for those who supplement with GliSODin. 

[sensei]

 To the contrary, avoiding gluten, and particularly avoiding FODMAPs is likely to be detrimental in the long term, even if it may provide short-term relief for some people. As I wrote before, intolerance of FODMAPs is indicative of intestinal dysbiosis (it's not a coincidence that it is often experienced by long-term Paleo dieters). 

 

FODMAPs really are not meant to ferment in the body.

 

Intolerance of FODMAPs is more likely caused by a combination of poor intestinal motility due to low fiber intake, and eating FODMAPs and other foods in the wrong order.

 

Meat and Dairy Proteins can tend to clog up the plumbing, and lack of dietary fiber makes it worse.  Poor mastication of meats -- meaning less pre-digestion and less saliva causes issues.

 

Fruits and other foods high in undigestible saccharides will pass very quickly through the body when eaten with a high fiber meal, however if they get stuck behind a slow moving mass of protein or cheese, they will ferment.

 

You can see the effect of high fiber and fruits moving quickly through the alimentary canal in children.  Small children will routinely get stuck on a particular food or set of foods. One of my children got stuck on fruits, berries, cucumbers, and romaine lettuce salads.

 

Frequent and loose stools were like clockwork, without any intestinal distress.

 

Another problem cause is imbalanced gut flora. Simply drinking a glass of Kefir a day will fix many issues.

 

I agree that gluten intolerance is overblown and likely only truly affects 1 or 2 per hundred people to any degree at all.  However, what is not in debate is that the majority of bread and cereal grains do cause inflammation.

[HaloTeK]

Darryl, are you prepared to say that a diet based mainly on fruit is going to increase endotoxemia?  I doubt that.

Edited by HaloTeK, 11 March 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[TheFountain]

Fruits causing insulin resistance and obesity in normal, healthy adults is the biggest non-sense without evidence I have ever heard on these forums. Further confounding this is when people actually associate high fruit intake with negative health effects. GTFO!

[Darryl]

HaloTeK, 

 

The human studies which most strongly associate of dietary fructose with endotoxemia are:

 

Thuy, S., Ladurner, R., Volynets, V., Wagner, S., Strahl, S., Königsrainer, A., ... & Bergheim, I. (2008). Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in humans is associated with increased plasma endotoxin and plasminogen activator inhibitor 1 concentrations and with fructose intake. The Journal of Nutrition, 138(8), 1452-1455.

Jin, R., Willment, A., Patel, S. S., Sun, X., Song, M., Mannery, Y. O., ... & Vos, M. B. (2014). Fructose induced endotoxemia in pediatric nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. International journal of hepatology, 2014.

 

However, fruits aren't just fructose. Whole fruit compounds like polyphenols appear to reduce intestinal permeability to endotoxins

 

Ghanim, H., Sia, C. L., Korzeniewski, K., Lohano, T., Abuaysheh, S., Marumganti, A., ... & Dandona, P. (2011). A resveratrol and polyphenol preparation suppresses oxidative and inflammatory stress response to a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 96(5), 1409-1414.

Anhê, F. F., Roy, D., Pilon, G., Dudonné, S., Matamoros, S., Varin, T. V., ... & Marette, A. (2014). A polyphenol-rich cranberry extract protects from diet-induced obesity, insulin resistance and intestinal inflammation in association with increased Akkermansia spp. population in the gut microbiota of mice. Gut, gutjnl-2014.

Ghanim, H., Sia, C. L., Upadhyay, M., Korzeniewski, K., Viswanathan, P., Abuaysheh, S., ... & Dandona, P. (2010). Orange juice neutralizes the proinflammatory effect of a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal and prevents endotoxin increase and Toll-like receptor expression. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 91(4), 940-949.

 

There's also the critical issue of dose. An medium apple has ~ 13 g fructose, plus fiber and polyphenols, and most are happy consuming just one at a time. Meanwhile, 12 oz soft drinks have up to 25 g fructose, and larger sizes are common. Apple juice "cocktail" isn't far behind, at 19 g fructose per 12 oz. Fructose absorption is saturable; healthy adults can absorb roughly 25 g at a time, and its the malabsorption at higher doses that may lead to fermentation and intestinal dysbiosis.

[DAMI]

 

Brief followup. For those curious about where the arabinoxylan winds up, here's the percentage content in these roller mill products.

 

bran: 21.01% (0.72% water extractable)

whole wheat: 6.78% (0.51% we)

germ: 5.61% (0.37% we)

white flour: 2.01% (0.44% we)

 

As the gluten is obviously distributed more evenly through the fractions (otherwise bread wouldn't hold a shape), clearly the bran portion has about 10x the prebiotics per portion gluten as white flour, though only about 63% more if only considering water extractable arabinoxylan. From:

 

Dornez, E., Gebruers, K., Wiame, S., Delcour, J. A., & Courtin, C. M. (2006). Insight into the distribution of arabinoxylans, endoxylanases, and endoxylanase inhibitors in industrial wheat roller mill streams. Journal of agricultural and food chemistry, 54(22), 8521-8529.

 

 

Darryl, I am curious why whole wheat consumption leads to worse health outcomes in studies like DART if it is supposedly good for us? http://wholehealthso...s-learned.html 

http://www.nature.co...l/1601342a.html

 

There is also the study I posted earlier in this thread which showed increased LDL-C in people with Apoe3/3 when consuming whole grains compared to refined grains.
 

[Darryl]

Darryl, I am curious why whole wheat consumption leads to worse health outcomes in studies like DART http://www.nature.co...l/1601342a.html

 

Reading this, it appears compliance was dismal, and from table 4, it appears all cause, coronary, and stroke mortality were unaffected at any time interval.

 

What do the meta analyses say?

 

Ye, E. Q., Chacko, S. A., Chou, E. L., Kugizaki, M., & Liu, S. (2012). Greater whole-grain intake is associated with lower risk of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and weight gain. The Journal of nutrition, 142(7), 1304-1313.

We identified 45 prospective cohort studies and 21 randomized-controlled trials (RCT) between 1966 and February 2012 by searching the Cumulative Index to Nursing and Allied Health Literature, Cochrane, Elsevier Medical Database, and PubMed. Study characteristics, whole-grain and dietary fiber intakes, and risk estimates were extracted using a standardized protocol. Using random effects models, we found that compared with never/rare consumers of whole grains, those consuming 48–80 g whole grain/d (3–5 serving/d) had an ~26% lower risk of T2D [RR = 0.74 (95% CI: 0.69, 0.80)], ~21% lower risk of CVD [RR = 0.79 (95% CI: 0.74, 0.85)], and consistently less weight gain during 8–13 y (1.27 vs 1.64 kg; P = 0.001). Among RCT, weighted mean differences in post-intervention circulating concentrations of fasting glucose and total and LDL-cholesterol comparing whole-grain intervention groups with controls indicated significantly lower concentrations after whole-grain interventions [differences in fasting glucose: −0.93 mmol/L (95% CI: −1.65, −0.21), total cholesterol: −0.83 mmol/L (−1.24, −0.42); and LDL-cholesterol: −0.72 mmol/L (−1.34, −0.11)]. Findings from this meta-analysis provide evidence to support beneficial effects of whole-grain intake on vascular disease prevention. 

 

 

Fardet, A., & Boirie, Y. (2014). Associations between food and beverage groups and major diet-related chronic diseases: an exhaustive review of pooled/meta-analyses and systematic reviews. Nutrition reviews, 72(12), 741-762.

The present review of 304 pooled/meta-analyses and systematic reviews published between 1950 and 2013 confirmed that plant food groups are more protective than animal food groups against diet-related chronic disease (DRCDs). Within plant food groups, grain products are more protective than fruits and vegetables. The highest level of whole-grain cereal consumption tends to be either protective against (15 references) or not associated with (10 references) diet related chronic disease risk. A higher risk of stomach cancer was reported in 1 ecological study only. Based on meta-analyses only, the highest level of wholegrain cereal consumption may significantly reduce the risks of type 2 diabetes, CVD, and cancer by a maximum of 27%, 29%, and 59%, respectively. The types of cancer associated with the highest reductions in risk were as follows: non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma (−59%), esophagus (−48%), endometrium (−45%), oral cavity/pharynx and stomach (−43%), brain (−21%), breast (−33%), pancreas (−30%), colorectum (−21%), and colon (−14%). Meta-analysis also showed that high consumption of whole-grain cereal was associated with a significant reduction in body fat of −0.48 kg for a 2- to 16-week period.

 

The most recent big prospective studies confirms an overall benefit:

 

Wu, H., Flint, A. J., Qi, Q., van Dam, R. M., Sampson, L. A., Rimm, E. B., ... & Sun, Q. (2015). Association Between Dietary Whole Grain Intake and Risk of Mortality: Two Large Prospective Studies in US Men and Women. JAMA internal medicine.

After multivariate adjustment for potential confounders, including age, smoking, body mass index, physical activity, and modified Alternate Healthy Eating Index score, higher whole grain intake was associated with lower total and CVD mortality but not cancer mortality: the pooled HRs for quintiles 1 through 5, respectively, of whole grain intake were 1 (reference), 0.99 (95% CI, 0.95-1.02), 0.98 (95% CI, 0.95-1.02), 0.97 (95% CI, 0.93-1.01), and 0.91 (95% CI, 0.88-0.95) for total mortality (P fortrend < .001); 1 (reference), 0.94 (95% CI, 0.88-1.01), 0.94 (95% CI, 0.87-1.01), 0.87 (95% CI, 0.80-0.94), and 0.85 (95% CI, 0.78-0.92) for CVD mortality (P fortrend < .001); and 1 (reference), 1.02 (95% CI, 0.96-1.08), 1.05 (95% CI, 0.99-1.12), 1.04 (95% CI, 0.98-1.11), and 0.97 (95% CI, 0.91-1.04) for cancer mortality (P fortrend = .43). We further estimated that every serving (28 g/d) of whole grain consumption was associated with a 5% (95% CI, 2%-7%) lower total morality or a 9% (95% CI, 4%-13%) lower CVD mortality, whereas the same intake level was nonsignificantly associated with lower cancer mortality (HR, 0.98; 95% CI, 0.94-1.02). Similar inverse associations were observed between bran intake and CVD mortality, with a pooled HR of 0.80 (95% CI, 0.73-0.87; P fortrend < .001), whereas germ intake was not associated with CVD mortality after adjustment for bran intake.

 

 

 

 

I don't think there's much if any evidence for health benefits from refined grains, indeed they appear to increase type 2 diabetes risk, so clearly there's something in the bran and/or germ that is providing most or all of the health benefit. I think a compelling case can be made that prebiotic oligosaccharides in whole grains like inulin and arabinoxylose, and their effect on gut microbiota composition and intestinal permeability to endotoxins, play a big role in the observed benefits. Whole grains aren't the only or best source, I personally think people might be better served to increase consumption of leeks, onions, garlic, asparagus etc. But when a common staple provides the majority of the prebiotic oligosaccharides in Western diets, consistently reduces systemic inflammation and endotoxemia in trials, and has broad overall health benefits, I think its absurd to worry about a cherry-picked in vitro study on gliadin. Lots of healthy foods have deletorious components, but are still markedly beneficial overall.

 

Costabile, A., Klinder, A., Fava, F., Napolitano, A., Fogliano, V., Leonard, C., ... & Tuohy, K. M. (2008). Whole-grain wheat breakfast cereal has a prebiotic effect on the human gut microbiota: a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study. British journal of nutrition, 99(01), 110-120.

Vitaglione, P., Mennella, I., Ferracane, R., Rivellese, A. A., Giacco, R., Ercolini, D., ... & Fogliano, V. (2015). Whole-grain wheat consumption reduces inflammation in a randomized controlled trial on overweight and obese subjects with unhealthy dietary and lifestyle behaviors: role of polyphenols bound to cereal dietary fiber. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, ajcn-088120.

[timar]

Fruits causing insulin resistance and obesity in normal, healthy adults is the biggest non-sense without evidence I have ever heard on these forums. Further confounding this is when people actually associate high fruit intake with negative health effects. GTFO!

 

True. As Darryl pointed out, fruits are much, much more than fructose. Here are some recent results from the PREDIMED study:

 

Am J Clin Nutr. 2014 Dec;100(6):1498-507. doi: 10.3945/ajcn.114.093757. Epub 2014 Sep 10.

 

Fiber intake and all-cause mortality in the Prevención con Dieta Mediterránea (PREDIMED) study.

Buil-Cosiales P¹, Zazpe I¹, Toledo E¹, Corella D¹, Salas-Salvadó J¹, Diez-Espino J¹, Ros E¹, Fernandez-Creuet Navajas J¹, Santos-Lozano JM¹, Arós F¹, Fiol M¹, Castañer O¹, Serra-Majem L¹, Pintó X¹, Lamuela-Raventós RM¹, Marti A¹, Basterra-Gortari FJ¹, Sorlí JV¹, Verdú-Rotellar JM¹, Basora J¹, Ruiz-Gutierrez V¹, Estruch R¹, Martínez-González MÁ¹.

 

BACKGROUND: Few observational studies have examined the effect of dietary fiber intake and fruit and vegetable consumption on total mortality and have reported inconsistent results. All of the studies have been conducted in the general population and typically used only a single assessment of diet.

 

OBJECTIVE: We investigated the association of fiber intake and whole-grain, fruit, and vegetable consumption with all-cause mortality in a Mediterranean cohort of elderly adults at high cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk by using repeated measurements of dietary information and taking into account the effect of a dietary intervention.

 

DESIGN: We followed up 7216 men (55-75 y old) and women (60-75 y old) at high CVD risk in the Prevención con Dieta Mediterránea (PREDIMED) trial for a mean of 5.9 y. Data were analyzed as an observational cohort. Participants were initially free of CVD. A 137-item validated food-frequency questionnaire administered by dietitians was repeated annually to assess dietary exposures (fiber, fruit, vegetable, and whole-grain intakes). Deaths were identified through the continuing medical care of participants and the National Death Index. An independent, blinded Event Adjudication Committee adjudicated causes of death. Cox regression models were used to estimate HRs of death during follow-up according to baseline dietary exposures and their yearly updated changes.

 

RESULTS: In up to 8.7 y of follow-up, 425 participants died. Baseline fiber intake and fruit consumption were significantly associated with lower risk of death [HRs for the fifth compared with the first quintile: 0.63 (95% CI: 0.46, 0.86; P = 0.015) and 0.59 (95% CI: 0.42, 0.82; P = 0.004), respectively]. When the updated dietary information was considered, participants with fruit consumption >210 g/d had 41% lower risk of all-cause mortality (HR: 0.59; 95% CI: 0.44, 0.78). Associations were strongest for CVD mortality than other causes of death.

 

CONCLUSION: Fiber and fruit intakes are associated with a reduction in total mortality.

 

A 41% reduction in all-cause mortality is not too shabby. If there was a pill having the same effect on all-cause mortality as 10 oz of fresh fruits, it would cost you at least 100 times as much... a multi-billion dollar drug for sure.

Edited by timar, 15 March 2015 - 09:44 PM.

[HaloTeK]

Darryl, could you list the foods you eat on daily basis?  I'm interested because I have so many sensitivities to foods including potatoes, sweet potatoes, and almost all of the whole grains (headaches etc) that I wonder how I could even construct a diet of 75/15/10 or something close to it without a lot of refined grain.  I don't have issues white rice or refined wheat, but I don't want to make them a staple.

[sensei]

  I don't have issues white rice or refined wheat, but I don't want to make them a staple.

 

I should hope not,

 

Amylopectin is a starch that causes insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome in humans.  Refined wheat flour is full of amylopectin.

[HaloTeK]

 

  I don't have issues white rice or refined wheat, but I don't want to make them a staple.

 

I should hope not,

 

Amylopectin is a starch that causes insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome in humans.  Refined wheat flour is full of amylopectin.

 

 

OK, I will wanna know where people think you should get your carbs from if you have issues like I have.  I'm not afraid of consuming some EVOO, but I'd only want to bomb my body once or twice a day with pay because I don't completely trust how our body handles fat.

[sensei]

 

 

OK, I will wanna know where people think you should get your carbs from if you have issues like I have.  I'm not afraid of consuming some EVOO, but I'd only want to bomb my body once or twice a day with pay because I don't completely trust how our body handles fat.

 

 

Fruit

 

Avocados

 

Beans (beans are by calories about 15% fat 25% proteins 40-45% complex starches and 15% sugars) - lentils, garbanzos, great northern, kidney etc.

[HaloTeK]

 

 

 

OK, I will wanna know where people think you should get your carbs from if you have issues like I have.  I'm not afraid of consuming some EVOO, but I'd only want to bomb my body once or twice a day with pay because I don't completely trust how our body handles fat.

 

 

Fruit

 

Avocados

 

Beans (beans are by calories about 15% fat 25% proteins 40-45% complex starches and 15% sugars) - lentils, garbanzos, great northern, kidney etc.

 

 

Fruit typically has too many sugars for me and it sometimes messed with my blood sugars.   I try to always be in a glycogen depleted state when having carbs, but I still seem to have this effect.  I think Avocados taste nasty and I think the evidence sways in favor of using EVOO as a mono source vs any kind of nut or fatty fruit that would have too many polys.   I would have to then eat cans and cans of beans to balance my caloric numbers and I just don't think beans are neutral with regards to gut health.   I'm still looking for a way to make some diet like white rice/little fruit/certain veggies/some EVOO/ and some low fat meat work for me.  It would be nice to have a neutral grain or tuber that would be like white rice because of the issues I have with sweet potatoes/potatoes/most whole grains.

 

 

 

 

[sensei]

 

 

 

Fruit typically has too many sugars for me and it sometimes messed with my blood sugars.   I try to always be in a glycogen depleted state when having carbs, but I still seem to have this effect.  I think Avocados taste nasty and I think the evidence sways in favor of using EVOO as a mono source vs any kind of nut or fatty fruit that would have too many polys.   I would have to then eat cans and cans of beans to balance my caloric numbers and I just don't think beans are neutral with regards to gut health.   I'm still looking for a way to make some diet like white rice/little fruit/certain veggies/some EVOO/ and some low fat meat work for me.  It would be nice to have a neutral grain or tuber that would be like white rice because of the issues I have with sweet potatoes/potatoes/most whole grains.

 

Respectfully -- you asked about where to get your CARBS, then you talk about Extra Virgin Olive Oil 

 

Avocados are 5 grams good sugars and 10 grams dietary fiber per avocado (sorry you don't like them) --

 

But to be blunt -- avocados have almost the exact same ratios of fats as EVOO

 

EVOO is             13.6% Sat Fat 10% Poly and 71.4% Mono

Avocados are     14.8% Sat Fat  12.8% Poly and 66% Mono

 

If you are worried about gut health processed white rice is one of the worst things you can put into your body -- full of empty calories -- same with processed wheat flour -- and both lead to intestinal dysbiosis.

 

The high fiber content of beans, and the complex carbs make beans one of the best foods for gut health.

 

If you actually eat a diet 75% carbs 15% fats 10% protein, unless you are eating 3000 calories a day or weigh 100 lbs you will be protein deficient.

 

A moderately active adult needs half a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight to maintain muscle tone, meet collagen and other connective tissue repair needs, and provide basic proteins for metabolic functions. That equates to 80 grams of protein for a 160 lb adult -- 320 calories out of a 2000 calorie diet -- 16% as a minimum.

 

If you are actually eating 1500+ calories from carbs you will probably never be glycogen depleted.

 

That said, you have not actually said what ratio diet you actually have -- 

 

As for myself -- I weigh 85 kilos/187 lbs and I eat between 180 and 200 grams of protein a day -- less than 50 grams of carbs and the rest fat out of an approximate 2000-2200 calories/day diet

 

Last night for dinner was a half pack of bacon (grease drained), a couple of  avocados, and a half dozen jumbo eggs smothered in cheese

 

The rest of my day is protein and fiber shakes -- I'm gaining mass and cutting fat - its harsh balancing a ketotic metabolism and anabolic muscle growth  -- but over the last 5 weeks I have lost 9 lbs fat and gained 10-12 in lean muscle

Edited by sensei, 19 March 2015 - 05:00 AM.

[HaloTeK]

There is no way in hell that diet will be healthy for your heart in the long term.  Sorry.  No self respecting health respecting person is going to eat 180-200 grams of protein on a constant basis.  I don't even think a diet of more than 40% fat is even that optimal and that's for people who are very close to CR.  If you are NOT CR, you probably need to consume less fat to protect your heart when you are 70yr+

Edited by HaloTeK, 19 March 2015 - 05:48 AM.

[sensei]

There is no way in hell that diet will be healthy for your heart in the long term.  Sorry.  No self respecting health respecting person is going to eat 180-200 grams of protein on a constant basis.  I don't even think a diet of more than 40% fat is even that optimal and that's for people who are very close to CR.  If you are NOT CR, you probably need to consume less fat to protect your heart when you are 70yr+

 

 

Before you throw darts -- educate yourself, and read thoroughly -- I include soluble and insoluble dietary fiber in every meal or shake I drink -- yesterday I happened to get it from avocados -- some days it is from blended cooked mixed greens. -- I also take plain psyllium husk.

 

The human body has evolved to run on fats -- in fact, except for dietary fiber (undigestable carbs) you need no carbohydrates in your diet at all.

 

Your liver will manufacture every single gram of glucose that your body needs -- it's called gluconeogenesis.

 

For the rest of your energy ketone bodies are just fine.

 

Your heart actually prefers ketones to glucose for energy -- and that actually protects the heart against AGEs (advanced glycation end products).

 

Ketones actually are more energy dense than glucose -- and don't mess with your insulin sensitivity.

 

As far as protein -- again you show your ignorance.  Why do you think Myoplex is a multimillion dollar brand that sells a premixed shake for post workout that contains 42 grams of protein? -- Because people don't drink it?

 

Most people today don't eat enough protein.

 

"Susan M Kleiner, who holds a PhD in nutrition and human performance from Case Western Reserve University, states in her book, Power Eating, that for muscle building an intake of 1.6-2.2 grams per kilogram of bodyweight is recommended. Dr Michael Colgan, in Optimum Sports Nutrition, claims that the RDA doesn't meet the needs of athletes who train in an intense fashion. So, the evidence provided by some of the highly regarded "experts" in this field indicates that the addition of extra protein has been shown to display positive effects which produce muscle growth."

 

http://www.bodybuild...m/fun/maki1.htm

 

 

Remember -- I said that I am cutting fat and building muscle -- ketotic dieting and balancing anabolic muscle gains.

 

When not ketotic and eating only for gains, I will still consume at least 1 gram per pound of protein -- but will add in complex carbs from beans and sweet potatoes, so my caloric mix looks closer to 30 Protein 40 fat 30 carbs -- at 2600-3000 calories  (yeah 220 grams of protien).

 

I never allow my protein to drop below maintenance level of 1/2 gram per pound.

 

A diet high in calories from refined carbs (refined wheat flour, refined white rice, refined potatoes, noodles containing refined grains) will make you fat and give you diabetes.

 

Eating fats at 40%-50% of your caloric intake will do neither.

Edited by sensei, 19 March 2015 - 08:36 AM.

[sensei]

I went deep into ketosis over the last few days. Breath, body, and a horrible reek from my urine.

 

Being in slight/minor ketosis is manageable for me, deep ketosis however, is not.

 

I ended up with a horrid case of the keto-flu complete with brain fog, blurry vision, and actually anxiety.

 

As they say the proof is in the pudding -- and apparently MY brain and ketones do not mix very well.

 

After consulting with my doctor -- I'm going to settle into a 30% Protein - 30% Fat - 40% Carb  diet to stabilize my metabolism.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[timar]

Great documentary on the "anti-gluten" trend and Dr. Davis personal "War on Wheat". It's quite exhilarating to see such solid journalism aired on US television:

 

 

Even the music is top-notch

Edited by timar, 29 March 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[timar]

While I'm at it - here's a more humorous take on the topic

 

[DAMI]

 

Darryl, I am curious why whole wheat consumption leads to worse health outcomes in studies like DART http://www.nature.co...l/1601342a.html

 

Reading this, it appears compliance was dismal, and from table 4, it appears all cause, coronary, and stroke mortality were unaffected at any time interval.

 

What do the meta analyses say?

 

 

 

Table 4 actually shows that mortality from coronary heart disease WAS increased at 0-2 years for the intervention group.

The meta analyses you cited only look at whole grains in general, not specifically at wheat. So the beneficial effects could be due to other whole grains like oats (and due to residual confounding).
 

[Raptor87]

I don't know about the article, did not read it. I don't give a shit. But when people jump on the no gluten trend and start proclaiming that it is bad, is probably due to some intolerance. The problem arises when they become fanatic about it. Most people who stop eating gluten do it, because of a  protein/low carb diet. They lose weight and become happpy. Not because of the diet itself, but due to gluten sensitivity and mostly poor body image.

 

There is no scientific evidence that gluten is bad for a normal person. There's a lot of foodfanatics out there.