167 replies to this topic

[FW900]

Everyone should well be aware that Neuralstem, the company which is both developer and patent holder of NSI-189, actively monitors both Longecity and other nootropic sites for vendors selling NSI-189 and will send a cease and desist letter threatening to shut them down. They do this as it is their intellectual property and if anything in terms of complications and dangers should arise, it would be very bad for their image and for their shareholders. Additionally, drug development is extremely expensive and takes years; they are not happy to see vendors profiting off of their hard work. In order to ensure the discussion of current vendors selling NSI-189, I suggest a safer way to discuss new sources without the lingering fear that Neuralstem is monitoring and could potentially shut down your source. The creation of a limited access private group is what I suggest.

 

It is well known here and elsewhere that the vendor, Ceretropic, was sent a cease and desist letter (see below) from Neuralstem for attempting to sell a structurally similar product. It is not just Ceretropic, Nyles, the eBay seller who previously sold it, was sent a cease and desist letter as well.

 

http://www.longecity...e-6#entry668279

Hey Guys, I figured I would comment here so that people who do not frequent Reddit can be up to speed with what is going on as well. Last week we were sent a cease and desist letter from Neuralstem's lawyers. While we feel that their use patent does not cover the sale of a research chemical, and certainly does not cover our analog, they made it clear that if we were to go forward, they would make our lives hell. So while we feel that legally our analog would be perfectly fine, we do not want to get into a fight with a billion dollar company. They made it clear that they would alert various government agencies to our operation, and generally make things harder for us to do business. So it is in our best interest to back down from the sale of NSI-189, or any direct structurally related analogs.

 

Sorry to get people's hopes up. We respect that Neuralstem spent a lot of money to get this compound through trials, and need to assert their legal control of their patents. We just didn't think they would come after us before we even put it up on the site. Obviously they have people reading these forums, and knew about things ahead of time. It's unfortunate that this will make it harder for people to get this great compound, but we understand why they did what they did. We are going to move on and focus on our other new compounds.

 

 

 

I propose that all further discussion of NSI-189 sources be limited to a private group in which access would be limited to:

 

• Longecity users registered for over 12 Months
• Longecity users who have contributed over 100 posts
• Longecity donation members who have been registered for over 6 months

 

The vendors selling NSI-189 will be discussed and thoroughly vetted within the private group. I reiterate, this private group will be for the discussion of vendors; discussion about legitimate NSI-189 and anecdotes related to it should be discussed elsewhere such as the NSI-189 thread. I am currently not a member and I am also busy so I cannot take on the role of starting this group at this time. Someone else who is a long time or well respected member should step up to the plate and start this proposed group. This entire proposal is entirely voluntary and cannot be enforced on the part of Longecity and moderators; this being said, Longecity has a decent community and if this idea takes off, I'm hopeful that most users will realize it is smarter to leave the discussion of sources within the group.

 

The only exception to source discussion should be the exposure of vendors selling a bogus product as NSI-189 that is not NSI-189. Expose them and let Neuralstem take them down.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a vendor and I do not have a vested interest them. I'm not affiliated with Neuralstem.

 

Neuralstem : Please understand that there exists such a vast demand for this product, that there are a great many retailers currently selling (likely) illegitimate NSI-189 on sites like Alibaba and elsewhere. This group is not being created to step on your toes but rather ensure that people are actually getting NSI-189 from a legitimate place selling a chemically pure substance rather than a shady vendor selling who-knows-what. So long as people are afraid to discuss retailers, they will also be afraid to discuss legitimacy. If the legitimate sources dry up, people could take a toxic substance from Alibaba or elsewhere that was sold as NSI-189. Fake NSI-189 and posted complications that arise from its usage could be much worse than the side effects of the actual drug.

Edited by FW900, 02 July 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[pi-]

This sounds very sensible, it appears to be win-win all the way around the table. +1 from me.

 

Even the patent holder. For where there is a demand, a supply will always arise. And shutting down vendors will be like cutting heads off the hydra. It will just drive the market underground to a place where it is impossible to control, which will have the effect of muddying the waters by creating a situation perfect for fraudsters to exploit. This would lead to a lot of misinformation regarding the substance, as various people take various compounds (believing it to be the original) and share their experiences.

 

If I were the patent holder of a new superdrug, I would do everything in my power to make sure that nobody is getting sold duds. This would be positive advertising. I might go so far as to make sure that some seller under my jurisdiction (for example, USA based) is allowed to continue with impunity until I get official approval to distribute. Then I could offer them the option of a takeover or closing them down. Or just close them down immediately. In the meantime, their presence would stifle potential competition from China.

 

But why limit it to NSI-189? I would recommend opening such a discussion forum for the purposes of sourcing any and all potentially contentious compounds.

 

Also, setting a specific bar of one year sounds like a bad long-term strategy. Any intelligent employee of a pharmaceutical company could simply create an account straightaway, post a few plausible contributions, and gain to the keys to the kingdom in due time.

 

Better would be to work informally through existing trust networks and commonsense. Someone should only be admitted to the group if they are able to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that they are a genuine seeker. If they need to divulge some information as to who they are in real life, so be it. Let that be the price for the entrance-ticket.

 

This should not be so hard to do.  For example, although I'm a recent newcomer to this community, my purpose here is research into tonal perception and musical learning. I have posts spanning many Internet communities and several years, as well as a website documenting my work. I'm also happy to talk about it until the cows come home.  A moderator would be able to quickly figure out what I'm about and where I'm coming from. 

 

Maybe three gatekeepers, all of whom have to agree in order to accept a new member.  hmm, a lot of work for someone. Maybe several gatekeepers, two of them have two agree...

Edited by pi-, 02 July 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Amorphous]

100 posts seems a bit too much.

[stillwater]

I've been on here for a little over 4 years and only have 36 posts, but this idea is of interest to me.

 

[FW900]

I've been on here for a little over 4 years and only have 36 posts, but this idea is of interest to me.

 

 

 

I should clarify, I meant any one of the three bullet points as a barrier for entry, not a combination of all three of them. You being registered for four years would more than suffice.

 

 

100 posts seems a bit too much.

 

I agree. However, we need to be certain that there is not a Neuralstem spy within the group, posing on these forums. Post count is the easiest to fake of the three suggested criteria in this would-be (hopefully will-be) group . Perhaps people should be judged strictly on date of registration and post history instead.

[Kyle McGill]

A good idea. Getting a hold of an available vendor would be wonderful.

[Sunifiramses II]

*checks profile*

 

"Member Since 27 May 2013"

 

Hooray!

 

No but seriously, I'm all for this. I have struggled with depression on and off for years, and really wanted to try this stuff but was too late for the group buys.

[Sunifiramses II]

 

Neuralstem : Please understand that there exists such a vast demand for this product, that there are a great many retailers currently selling (likely) illegitimate NSI-189 on sites like Alibaba and elsewhere. This group is not being created to step on your toes but rather ensure that people are actually getting NSI-189 from a legitimate place selling a chemically pure substance rather than a shady vendor selling who-knows-what. So long as people are afraid to discuss retailers, they will also be afraid to discuss legitimacy. If the legitimate sources dry up, people could take a toxic substance from Alibaba or elsewhere that was sold as NSI-189. Fake NSI-189 and posted complications that arise from its usage could be much worse than the side effects of the actual drug.

 

 

This sounds very sensible, it appears to be win-win all the way around the table. +1 from me.

 

Even the patent holder. For where there is a demand, a supply will always arise. And shutting down vendors will be like cutting heads off the hydra. It will just drive the market underground to a place where it is impossible to control, which will have the effect of muddying the waters by creating a situation perfect for fraudsters to exploit. This would lead to a lot of misinformation regarding the substance, as various people take various compounds (believing it to be the original) and share their experiences.

 

This is an excellent point. 

Edited by Sunifiramses II, 08 July 2014 - 02:24 AM.

[golden1]

interesting

[xcell]

This would be excellent. I'm highly interested in getting my hands on NSI-189, however the only immediate sources appear to be expensive/questionable on ebay and questionable on alibaba. How does one fire up a private group?

[HenryHH]

I would definitely be interested in participating; I agree that any of the 3 proposed "screening" criteria would be sufficient.

[unregistered_user]

I second this motion. 

[Ribby]

I'm interested as well, though I'm not sure how long I've had my account

Edit: just checked, sept 2013. Have a source, but will obviously not post about it publicly

Edited by Ribby, 11 July 2014 - 01:08 AM.

[HenryHH]

Ribby, would you mind PMing me your source? I've been a member here for a number of years now and definitely do NOT work for/with Neuralstem. I would love to order NSI-189 and test it specifically to assess its potential for memory improvement.

[tolerant]

A guy on a Russian chemistry forum volunteered to do a simulation of freebase NSI spectra for me using the software ACD/Labs. This was in response to me posting the spectrum provided to me in private correspondence by HengHeDa. This spectrum has already been posted here and here

In reply he prepared a word document (enclosed here, "NMR_EN.doc). The comments have been translated by me from Russian to English to the best of my ability. This guy is a qualified chemist, not a student.

His other observations, expressed to me by way of email are as follows:

1. If carried out on good equipment, a real spectrum should contain a sharp peak at 7.26 ppm (parts per million, the X-axis). This peak represents the presence of the solution (CHCl3, which is the solution used, as confirmed to me by HengHeDa). This peak is absent in the spectrum provided to me.
2. Real spectra have "noises", which show up as the line being wavy, not straight. Again, this is absent from HengHeDa spectrum. For an example of a real spectrum with noise present, see the attached picture (spectra.jpg).
3. Therefore it is likely that the spectrum is a fake, which DOES NOT mean that the product itself is fake. [My emphasis].
 

Attached Files

•  NMR_EN.doc   406.5KB   17 downloads
•  spectra.jpg   41.6KB   9 downloads

Edited by tolerant, 11 July 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[Lobotomy]

I don't even meet the requirements yet and I totally approve.

[formergenius]

It's a good proposal, albeit of course not impenetrable, it's certainly better than nothing.

Alternatively, if people were (to get) familiar with PGP encryption, we could simply still use the forums to post encrypted content, and the decryption key could then be extended to those deemed legitimate. This of course provided it is congruent with LC rules.

 

As I recall, NSI-189 has been discussed for over a year, therefore it is not unlikely that Neuralstem would have an account registered for that length of time, thus falling in to the criteria of acceptance into the private discussion group. I fear it would indeed require greater prudence of screening to ensure those accepted indeed are legitimate. However, that would then lead us in to a bit of a conundrum, wherein given the legal disputes revolving the subject, extending more personal information to apply for entry might be a limiting threshold not all are willing to pass, despite perhaps being truly in need of the information discussed within the group. And, depending on how far Neuralstem is willing to take this, they may also employ more questionable techniques to gain access to the information; the like that is not unheard of to be engaged in by companies of that stature.

This just to convey some possible points of weakness in the idea, wherein an individual would have to have quite the technical knowledge to significantly mitigate such entry points by means of data security, as well as those accepted should know how to handle and store the data provided.

That's of course thinking in extremes, as it might not even come that far, but if you want security, those are some things to consider in order to maximize the protection of any sources included in discussions, as well as to protect the personal information of participants from potential doxxing.

Edited by formergenius, 15 July 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[neuroatypicow]

i wish we could work with them, instead of against them. we're like an exploitable eager volunteer cohort, with a whole range of syndromes, that could perform unofficial consensual mid-and-long-term trials of this.

 

i do however think that enough untouchable sources of this are going to open up that a group like this may not be necessary.

i also think that group buys are better, for crucial compounds like this one, provided that we can get the product 3rd-party tested; the result is a satisfied participant, far more confident in the authenticity of their substance than could be provided by an online vendor.

 

i don't know how many of the criteria i meet, but i've been on the forum since the winter, lurking and reading since fall, and was primarily interested in DHF, Dihexa, and JDTic, along with general nootropic information. my interest in NSI came quite a bit later, as i knew the 2 group buys had completed or fallen apart, but when the thread that teased nsi available for purchased appeared in the spring, i started reading up on it, and decided to add it to my wish list. i hope my posts support my intentions.

[Amorphous]

I've noticed THT.CO account is suspended, which usually means that the website is no longer served by the host. Seemingly it will never be re-open

[neuroatypicow]

perhaps they've migrated the site over to an overseas hosting service, with the aim of making themselves out of reach of indirect tactics employed to take them down or offline. i thought i remember that tht is registered in hong kong, just with a distributor in kentucky. that could easily be changed though. who knows. maybe they have indeed folded. hope not, i'm a curious cat and want to see what they were working on.

[Amorphous]

I've noticed THT.CO account is suspended, which usually means that the website is no longer served by the host. Seemingly it will never be re-open

 

THT.CO is back, but it is still not open yet

[FW900]

I will be registering the group myself soon as no other members currently want to do so. I donated for membership status and ran into some technical problems with the transition. I will be a member somewhat soon and I will form the group within a day of my membership status.

 

Please stay tuned, I will post here when the group is ready.

[Overman]

Excellent idea

[FW900]

The group is now live. It is a private group that is invite only pending on group administrator approval. Please post here if you are interested in joining the group. Looking for other group administrators as well.

 

 

Access is limited to at least one of the the two criteria below:

 

• (1) Longecity users registered for over 12 Months

 

• (or 2) Longecity users who have contributed meaningful posts (at discretion of group administrators)

[foreseason]

I am certainly interested. Only been a member for a few months but think I've made some meaningful contributions. Specifically the cerebrolysin experiences compilation I spent about 6 hours making lol.

[pro-v]

Sign me up. Member since 2010, not a prolific poster but have been involved with 2 nsi group buys

[FW900]

Invites have been sent to the above. Invited roughly 15 users so far, can somebody please accept so I know the invite feature is working?


EDIT: Currently the group is pending moderator review. Whenever a moderator approves it, the invites will hopefully work. Sorry for the delay!

 

 Group.png   2.57KB   8 downloads

Edited by FW900, 22 July 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[Overman]

Sign me up please

[Negentropy]

heh, one day shy of one year; hope the rules can be relaxed a bit in my case; also was part of vlk's group buy...

[MangekyōPeter]

sign me up as well, please