10 replies to this topic

[ikon2]

Hi All,

 

I've been a member of the forum for years but seldom post and I am sorry about that.  But I do consider the collective here my "go-to" resource when I need to look up a supplement and its relative dosage, research, etc.

 

That said, I intend to add Methylene Blue to my regimen.  I obtained 25g USP MB 3H2O powder and am stuck on:

 

1. What dosage is "best" and

 

2. The calculation to effect a dilution of said dose.

 

As far as dosage, I see various trials ranging from almost 200mg/day to threads here that seem to point to 63-72mcg/day as the sweet spot for anti-aging purposes.  I don't want to push any limits but would like to be safely into the anti-aging purpose bracket with MB.

 

Relative to the actual dilution, as I said, I no not the calculation to use or really even an easy way to separate out what I need and/or accurately measure the powder as I do not have lab supplies or micro scales per se.  Any direction here would be greatly appreciated as well.

 

I am not being lazy in that I don't feel like reading prior threads as I have.  I just cannot find what the majority consensus is on the best dose nor can I find any calculations specifically relative to starting from the USP powder.  It seems many people have used the Kordon fish product (which I think was stated to start at 2.whatever mg's per drop)

 

I would appreciate any help in suggesting the best dosage for anti-aging purposes and also directing me how to get to that point in diluting what I have.  Essentially, I'd like to mix up a few vials w/ droppers so that one drop can be added to a glass of water and taken a few times per day.

 

One other thing, what's the storage protocol on this?  Label is green (general storage) but would it be better to divide up and then put in freezer?  I am assuming 25g will last years and I don't want to end up with the Methylene Rock

 

Thank you guys and gals!

 

 

[niner]

If there is an anti-aging effect from MB, you won't see it at sub-milligram doses. Frankly, I think the only thing you'll see at that level is a placebo effect. If you want to get the electron-shuttling effect at the mitochondria, which is probably where the anti-aging claim arises, then you will need doses in the 50-100 mg range, which is what's being used in the Rember trials. At that level, GI upset is a distinct possibility. The latest version of Rember is the reduced "leuco-" form, which is better tolerated and more bioavailable. In theory, you can convert MB to that form by combining it with ascorbic acid. That would have to be done prior to taking it; the complete conversion takes a few hours, I've heard.

I've completely given up on MB. I'd recommend c60-olive oil instead.

[ikon2]

If there is an anti-aging effect from MB, you won't see it at sub-milligram doses. Frankly, I think the only thing you'll see at that level is a placebo effect. If you want to get the electron-shuttling effect at the mitochondria, which is probably where the anti-aging claim arises, then you will need doses in the 50-100 mg range, which is what's being used in the Rember trials. At that level, GI upset is a distinct possibility. The latest version of Rember is the reduced "leuco-" form, which is better tolerated and more bioavailable. In theory, you can convert MB to that form by combining it with ascorbic acid. That would have to be done prior to taking it; the complete conversion takes a few hours, I've heard.

I've completely given up on MB. I'd recommend c60-olive oil instead.

 

 

Niner - thx for the quick reply - much appreciated.  Its interesting that you mention the ascorbic acid as I was just reading about that theory.  Good collection of info here:  http://www.perpetual...ylene_Blue.html

 

I've also read much that seems to suggest that the altered form of MB used in the Rember trial was likely just to make it patentable.

 

May I ask why you have given up on MB all together?  It does not seem as though it would be hard to combine with ascorbic.  I am already using c60OO but do not see why one could not use both.  If I am missing something please let me know!

[Nemo888]

Is it worth green pee and eye discolouration?

[ikon2]

Is it worth green pee and eye discolouration?

 

I had not heard of the eye discoloration.  But in all seriousness, pee color is a minor inconvenience compared to the potential benefits vs. the seemingly minimal sides.

[FW900]

If there is an anti-aging effect from MB, you won't see it at sub-milligram doses. Frankly, I think the only thing you'll see at that level is a placebo effect. If you want to get the electron-shuttling effect at the mitochondria, which is probably where the anti-aging claim arises, then you will need doses in the 50-100 mg range, which is what's being used in the Rember trials. At that level, GI upset is a distinct possibility. The latest version of Rember is the reduced "leuco-" form, which is better tolerated and more bioavailable. In theory, you can convert MB to that form by combining it with ascorbic acid. That would have to be done prior to taking it; the complete conversion takes a few hours, I've heard.

I've completely given up on MB. I'd recommend c60-olive oil instead.

 

Also important to keep in mind that should the OP be interested in taking this high of a dose, he/she should titrate slowly upward to the 50-100mg range. Severe brain fog will haunt you if you start out at such a high dose. Methylene blue acts as an antagonist to alpha7nAChRs; this will dull cognition. It will take your brain a while to upregulate these receptors in response to the antagonism.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22483305

[niner]

I've also read much that seems to suggest that the altered form of MB used in the Rember trial was likely just to make it patentable.
 
May I ask why you have given up on MB all together?  It does not seem as though it would be hard to combine with ascorbic.  I am already using c60OO but do not see why one could not use both.  If I am missing something please let me know!

 
The new leuco-MB version of Rember is genuinely better, not just a hack for patent reasons. It might improve their IP position as a side effect, but they presumably already had a use patent (as opposed to a composition of matter patent) on MB for Alzheimers.

I gave up on MB because it didn't do anything for me, even though I explored a range of doses that people were raving about. The idea that 60 mcg is the "nootropic dose" was cooked up by someone on the basis of a lack of understanding of pharmacokinetics, and is essentially nonsense. From observing peoples' reports over a long period, I've come to the conclusion that colored liquids, particularly if you mix them yourself, are very placebogenic.
 

Also important to keep in mind that should the OP be interested in taking this high of a dose, he/she should titrate slowly upward to the 50-100mg range. Severe brain fog will haunt you if you start out at such a high dose. Methylene blue acts as an antagonist to alpha7nAChRs; this will dull cognition. It will take your brain a while to upregulate these receptors in response to the antagonism.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22483305

I wouldn't worry about this too much. The IC50 for MB at the nAChR was 3.4 uM, while the concentration that Atamna was shooting for at the mitochondria was low (or maybe sub) nanomolar, and they used Rember-sized doses to try to achieve that. It's been a while since I've looked at MB PK, so I won't say this couldn't happen, but I think that 3.4 uM would be pretty hard to hit in the CNS.

[ikon2]

The latest version of Rember is the reduced "leuco-" form, which is better tolerated and more bioavailable. In theory, you can convert MB to that form by combining it with ascorbic acid. That would have to be done prior to taking it; the complete conversion takes a few hours, I've heard.

 

 

 

If I were to want to reduce it to the "lueco" form with ascorbic acid, what ratio would I use?  I think I remember seeing a 1:2 or 1:2.5 ration of MB to ascorbic.  Also, what fluid would I suspend it in?  Just water I assume but would I want to put any alcohol type addition in?  And how long do we assume the shelf lifer of a reduced form would be? I assume as long as blue fish meds (indefinitely) but I'm not sure if the ascorbic acid or reduced form would theoretically change that.

[niner]

 

The latest version of Rember is the reduced "leuco-" form, which is better tolerated and more bioavailable. In theory, you can convert MB to that form by combining it with ascorbic acid. That would have to be done prior to taking it; the complete conversion takes a few hours, I've heard.

 

 

If I were to want to reduce it to the "lueco" form with ascorbic acid, what ratio would I use?  I think I remember seeing a 1:2 or 1:2.5 ration of MB to ascorbic.  Also, what fluid would I suspend it in?  Just water I assume but would I want to put any alcohol type addition in?  And how long do we assume the shelf lifer of a reduced form would be? I assume as long as blue fish meds (indefinitely) but I'm not sure if the ascorbic acid or reduced form would theoretically change that.

 

You'd want a molar excess of ascorbic acid.  MB is 320g/m, while ascorbic acid is 176g/m.  If you used a 2 or 2.5-fold excess of ascorbic acid on a weight basis, that should be more than enough.  Hard to say what the shelf life would be, but ascorbic acid solutions don't last forever.  Since both of these compounds are very soluble in water, I think just running it in water should work.  I still wouldn't expect MB to do much at very low doses, regardless of its oxidation state.

[ikon2]

 

 

The latest version of Rember is the reduced "leuco-" form, which is better tolerated and more bioavailable. In theory, you can convert MB to that form by combining it with ascorbic acid. That would have to be done prior to taking it; the complete conversion takes a few hours, I've heard.

 

 

If I were to want to reduce it to the "lueco" form with ascorbic acid, what ratio would I use?  I think I remember seeing a 1:2 or 1:2.5 ration of MB to ascorbic.  Also, what fluid would I suspend it in?  Just water I assume but would I want to put any alcohol type addition in?  And how long do we assume the shelf lifer of a reduced form would be? I assume as long as blue fish meds (indefinitely) but I'm not sure if the ascorbic acid or reduced form would theoretically change that.

 

You'd want a molar excess of ascorbic acid.  MB is 320g/m, while ascorbic acid is 176g/m.  If you used a 2 or 2.5-fold excess of ascorbic acid on a weight basis, that should be more than enough.  Hard to say what the shelf life would be, but ascorbic acid solutions don't last forever.  Since both of these compounds are very soluble in water, I think just running it in water should work.  I still wouldn't expect MB to do much at very low doses, regardless of its oxidation state.

 

 

Great info niner.  I'm thinking of affecting a concentration of .5mg per drop and thus, I could easily play with the dose and settle on a 1-10mg range.

[Kabb]

Hiya ICON2 and NINER.  I appreciate this is an old thread from 2 years ago.  

 

I have a mitochondrial disease which cause considerable energy shortages such that the cells, particularly in my nervous system, fail to work properly and I can go into a state of delirium lasting days or even weeks.  I'm very keen to add methylene blue to my current supplements to see if it helps the functioning of my mitochondrial Electron Transport Chain in some way.

 

Unfortunately, like IKON2, I too can't draw any conclusions from the many and various discussions here.  Are the recommendations in this thread still valid in the couple of years since the posts were made or have some new thoughts come up?  For example, are there any further findings from the REMBER trials?

 

So, am I right in thinking I should build up slowly (how slowly?) to 50mg or even 100mg of methylene blue?  Also that the leuco form, created by mixing MB with ascorbic acid in water, has better bioavailability although how would this affect the dose?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Kabb, 25 April 2016 - 04:45 PM.