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NGF spray

nootropic ngf

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#91 tunt01

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:00 AM

2. Quote:  Why is Levi-Montalcini using the same dose on humans as she was on rats?

I know nothing of these research papers.  I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of those articles. :-)

 

 

That paper is linked in my prior comment.

 

4. McMicheals tells us, right at the very start of his presentation, that pharma companies have invested a lot of money into

NGF research in the last 10 to 15 years.  He also said that Genentech abandoned Stage 3 trials with NGF 3 years ago.

If you check the date on the Genentech press announcement about this, it's dated 1999.

So presumably McMichaels gave his presentation around 2002... 13 years ago.

 

 

The comments in the Youtube video say it was recorded in April 2014 (last year).  Additionally, I checked out his website and his business is still up and running. 

 

6.  Be wary of believing what you _want_ to believe.

A 'fantasy' is something you believe because it has an emotional payoff for you.

It makes you feel good, perhaps superior or competent, or it gives you hope, or spares you from fear ..etc.

We might find, for example, that in reality, pregnenolone is more trophic of neurons than NGF.

The question ultimately is: What's the reality ?

 

 

This ultimately ties into why a version of this protein hasn't been approved yet.  And I simply don't know enough about it to have a viewpoint.


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#92 normalizing

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:03 AM

im still in. i say, getting an actual NGF spray than any other crap sold as pills claiming NGF action is much much more favorable to actually work, and with high potency, less used.



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#93 Strangelove

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:18 PM

Hi Prophets,

 

1.  Yeah, sorry, McMichaels.

 

2. Quote:  Why is Levi-Montalcini using the same dose on humans as she was on rats?

I know nothing of these research papers.  I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of those articles. :-)

 

3. Perhaps a big and complicated molecule like NGF has diverse effects on different systems.

Perhaps it has systemic effects, as a signalling molecule, on systems that give rise to anti-depressant effects.

Perhaps it has local effects, in a dose-dependent manner, on the growth of small nerve fibers (for sensory and sympathetic neurons only). 

 

4. McMicheals tells us, right at the very start of his presentation, that pharma companies have invested a lot of money into

NGF research in the last 10 to 15 years.  He also said that Genentech abandoned Stage 3 trials with NGF 3 years ago.

If you check the date on the Genentech press announcement about this, it's dated 1999.

So presumably McMichaels gave his presentation around 2002... 13 years ago.

In other words, pharma companies invested lots of money researching NGF over (at least) a 15 year period,

from about 30 years ago, and there's _still_ nothing on the market.

There have been proposed applications for NGF from alzhemiers, parkinsons, diabetic neuropathy, glaucoma and other eye conditions.

 

So many merciless pharma companies, pursuing profit despite the public good, and there's still no NGF on the market ?

Something's up... something is wrong with this scenario.

The efficacy data isn't there, or... as McMichaels said explicitly, they (Genentech) found toxicity results.

 

5. Quote: Dr. McMichaels should probably be consulted upon for dosing.

That's an excellent idea.

Perhaps he could be asked about the toxicity results of genentech.

Perhaps he could be asked, in his opinion, how trophic NGF really is. 

Has it been misnamed from the beginning ?

 

6.  Be wary of believing what you _want_ to believe.

A 'fantasy' is something you believe because it has an emotional payoff for you.

It makes you feel good, perhaps superior or competent, or it gives you hope, or spares you from fear ..etc.

We might find, for example, that in reality, pregnenolone is more trophic of neurons than NGF.

The question ultimately is: What's the reality ?

 

playground

 

I think you have a somewhat negative perspective in all this, most of the people in Longecity are very open to try novel drugs, that only possibly... is safe, I do not say that this is correct or not, but been cautious trying a human peptide I imagine you will oppose really hard, members in the Dihexa thread (myself included) that try an unnatural potentiator of NGF that is Dihexa...

 

I am getting benefits from Dihexa and I am looking in NGF as I imagine I would get benefits worrying less for possible future side effects that Dihexa might have. Although again, I agree about finding doses that are close to the natural levels found in the nervous system. 

 

"6.  Be wary of believing what you _want_ to believe.

A 'fantasy' is something you believe because it has an emotional payoff for you.

It makes you feel good, perhaps superior or competent, or it gives you hope, or spares you from fear ..etc.

We might find, for example, that in reality, pregnenolone is more trophic of neurons than NGF.

The question ultimately is: What's the reality ?"

 

The only answer to that, is individual experimentation! There is not easy shortcut that could provide an answer. If you want to suceed in the "outer world" you have to be there and not have discomfort to confront you ideas and emotions with real life circumstances. The first thing that I would trust is personal experience / others people experiences, that then can be backed by a coherent theory, at this discussion we only have (logical) conjectures but no "evidence".

 

I cannot really understand your position, because with that position on this issue (and me not believing there is danger for a short term experimentation with NGF) we will never know if NGF is what many presume to be the "holy grail" of natural brain enhancement. I cannot really see any major risk (at all) not going forward with this, if it does not work as planed (although to me seems to me a good candidate) we can move forward. As for the companies making money, I am not sure if there is any correllation with hormone replacement, that prefer synthetic hormones that can be patented and not bioidentical that there are restrictions in patent applications. Also as you know companies cannot market NGF for "brain enhancement" as opposed to a cure for a disease that we may need years to see benefits for supplementing NGF, even a possible good antidepressant effect and anxyolisis maybe good enough for many to use NGF.


Edited by Strangelove, 26 May 2015 - 12:22 PM.


#94 curious_george

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:19 PM

im still in. i say, getting an actual NGF spray than any other crap sold as pills claiming NGF action is much much more favorable to actually work, and with high potency, less used.

Let's get this buy in motion asap...

Waiting for plasticperson to post the  buy-in  details so we can collectively push the GO button on this...

I am really looking forward to the NGF spray and getting started immediately...



#95 playground

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:20 AM

 

 

4. McMicheals tells us, right at the very start of his presentation, that pharma companies have invested a lot of money into

NGF research in the last 10 to 15 years.  He also said that Genentech abandoned Stage 3 trials with NGF 3 years ago.

If you check the date on the Genentech press announcement about this, it's dated 1999.

So presumably McMichaels gave his presentation around 2002... 13 years ago.

 

 

The comments in the Youtube video say it was recorded in April 2014 (last year).  Additionally, I checked out his website and his business is still up and running.

 

 

On Dr McMichaels website, he lists his publications and presentations.

The video you see on youtube is of a presentation he gave in 2004.

 

      World Federation of Societies of Biological Psychiatry Conference, February 2004, Sydney, Australia:

  • “Antidepressant-like effects of NGF in a genetic animal model of depression,” Overstreet DH, Fredericks K, Knapp DJ, McMichael J.

You can check this for yourself at this page:

http://www.beechtree.../science/papers

 

However,  in the video there is some graphics 'blurb' that suggests the video was recorded on April 11th 2014.

This 2014 date, however, seems to be untrue... since he says that Genentech's stage 3 trial was 3 years ago...

... and Genentech's stage 3 trial with NGF did end in 1999.

This can be verified on the Genentech site here:

http://www.gene.com/...e-growth-factor

 

I have written to Dr McMichael asking about Genentech's finding of NGF 'toxicity'.

I will update this thread when an answer comes back.

 

playground.


 


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#96 playground

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:53 AM

Toxicity & Anti-NGF medications.

 

Anyone who's been doing any research into  NGF recently will have come across papers that

are talking about anti-body search.... anti-bodies aimed at seeking out and binding to NGF.

Which, prima facie, is a very bizare thing.  Why would any pharma company want to develop

anti-bodies to NGF ?

 

I think i now know why.  Rheumatoid arthritis is associated with increased NGF production.

Here is a youtube video that explains this relationship.

 

Basically, the rationale is to knock out NGF in order to give pain relief to arthritis suffers.

However.. isn't this likely to undermine the neurological health of the suffer, in the long term ?

 

I presume, but i'm not yet sure, that the toxicity of NGF alluded to by McMichaels is related

to this inflammation/NGF relationship.   So.... you give people with diabetic neuropathy NGF

and then, some of them, develop pain in their joints... perhaps with accompanying inflammation.

 

Note that McMichaels said that in the Genentech trials, they were giving subjects 'several logs

more' NGF than the 4% of a microgram he was giving his 'subjects'. 

I presume 'several logs more' means 'several orders of magnitude more'.

So that could be anywhere between 100 times more and 10,000 times more (4mcg to 400mcg). 

 

Naturally, it would be very helpful to find out what dosage Genentech were administering

since it tells us what the max dosage should be... the dosage at which toxicity appears for

at least _some_ people.

 

playground.

 

 


Edited by playground, 27 May 2015 - 06:07 AM.

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#97 Ark

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:45 AM

I've suggested cobra venom NGF as a alternative earlier, has anyone considered this yet. There's a researcher in her 80s who's has been taking it for many years and swears by it's benefits. I'll have to search for some of her research and post it when I find it.

Edited by Ark, 28 May 2015 - 04:48 AM.

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#98 Arcanist

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 11:40 AM

subscribed to thread


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#99 normalizing

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 12:17 PM

I've suggested cobra venom NGF as a alternative earlier, has anyone considered this yet. There's a researcher in her 80s who's has been taking it for many years and swears by it's benefits. I'll have to search for some of her research and post it when I find it.

 

how the fuck is cobra venom good for you? whats next, grab snakes, choke and have em ejaculate poison in your forearms...


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#100 Ark

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 01:03 PM


I've suggested cobra venom NGF as a alternative earlier, has anyone considered this yet. There's a researcher in her 80s who's has been taking it for many years and swears by it's benefits. I'll have to search for some of her research and post it when I find it.


how the fuck is cobra venom good for you? whats next, grab snakes, choke and have em ejaculate poison in your forearms...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC282958/

#101 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 04:26 AM

Toxicity & Anti-NGF medications.

 

Anyone who's been doing any research into  NGF recently will have come across papers that

are talking about anti-body search.... anti-bodies aimed at seeking out and binding to NGF.

Which, prima facie, is a very bizare thing.  Why would any pharma company want to develop

anti-bodies to NGF ?

 

I think i now know why.  Rheumatoid arthritis is associated with increased NGF production.

 

Fascinating video. What they don't mention is that rheumatoid arthritis is negatively correlated with Alzheimer's disease. In fact, it was arthitis that led to the discovery of the association between GMCSF and microglia which attack brain plaque. The video does actually mention an immune connection with arthritis, but it also reveals that the disease may lead to the direct secretion of NGF -- another mechanism by which it might thwart Alzheimer's.

 

(What kind of nutcase pharma company would try to block NGF? I guess they're hoping that their arthritis patients will become too stupid to realize that lipidated curcumin is better and cheaper. Granted, some cancers secrete NGF, which may go some way toward explaining its own negative correlation to Alzheimer's. But in any event, it seems like utterly the wrong target in joint inflammation.)

 

For the record, I do not believe that NGF is a fundamental cause of cancer, inasmuch as it might be involved in proliferation. I see no evidence to support such a conclusion.

 

All this, in addition to Rita Levy-Montalchini's personal experience, leads me to believe that this NGF group buy may very well pay off. Granted, NGF is slow acting, and might take months, if lion's mane mushrooms are any guide.

 

I'm watching this group buy with interest, hopefully from the perspective of a future customer. Thanks in advance to you brave guinea pigs!


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#102 playground

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:51 AM

 

 

I've suggested cobra venom NGF as a alternative earlier, has anyone considered this yet. There's a researcher in her 80s who's has been taking it for many years and swears by it's benefits. I'll have to search for some of her research and post it when I find it.


how the fuck is cobra venom good for you? whats next, grab snakes, choke and have em ejaculate poison in your forearms...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC282958/

 

 

Hi Ark,

 

The paper you link to is,  unfortunately, trashed.

However the paper below... usefully summarises the whole NGF Snake venom area.

It seems that Rita Levi-Montalchini  was particularly interested in NGF  from snake venom.

See here:  http://www.researchg...9ccd4000000.pdf

 

After reading that paper I realise that NGF isn't 1 chemical.

It's a whole category of similarly structured, similarly acting chemicals.

And for this reason, there is good cause to tread carefully here.

 

Which NGF was Rita using, i wonder ?

 

Presumably, the reason for the appearance of NGF-like substances in snake venom is

because excessive NGF (in peripheral tissue) induces swelling and severe pain (eg Arthritis!)

 

best wishes

 

Playground.
 


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#103 Ark

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:56 AM

Great news, I believe there is company linked to her some how. They produce the branch cobra bdnf eye drops.


I believe her and her fellow researchers have been eye dropping for a couple years.

Edited by Ark, 01 June 2015 - 08:58 AM.


#104 playground

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 09:08 AM

Great news, I believe there is company linked to her some how. They produce the branch cobra bdnf eye drops.


I believe her and her fellow researchers have been eye dropping for a couple years.

 

Hi Ark,

so... spit it out, which company is this ?

Which chemical is it, exactly, that  they're using ?

Are they selling the eye drops ?

If yes, how much are they ?

 

best wishes

 

playground



#105 Ark

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 09:16 AM

The information was on my old laptop which unfortunately over heated and fried it. I was hoping someone else could fill in the blanks.



Cheers

#106 Ark

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 09:28 AM

I do remember learning about cv-bdnf from a post from anabolicmind's forum. (Approximated 3 years ago)


I hope this helps!

I'll keep looking and post back when I find more information, assuming it still exist.
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#107 normalizing

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 10:12 AM

ark, yeh excuses like "my dog ate my homework". seriously dude, you seem to be serious into this yet vital information is lost here. why even bother teasing like a teen slut on webcams when you didnt have full infos to help out here? seriously, if you dont have the vital infos, dont tease with shit like "oh but i read it on some forum, oh but ncbi mentions something i knew before about cobra venom"

 

either find and give the actual product, company name, or stfu :s


Edited by normalizing, 01 June 2015 - 10:17 AM.

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#108 Ark

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 10:28 AM

Normalizing what's your malfunction your seriously a real life POS. I wish you'd head back to blue light.org where you belong. I'd be keen to step into the ring with you and settle things in a language your more familiar with.



The reason I posted is to see if someone else might know the name of the company or researchers involved. ALSO considering it's not top secret,someone else has the missing information.


Question to you, why do you spout off nonsense online and then ask people to help find information like on Hu308, I just wonder why you feel entitled to help since you add virtually nothing to Longecity besides your less then charming attitude.

In the end your just another smart ass, not worth a third thought.

Edited by Ark, 01 June 2015 - 10:46 AM.

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#109 playground

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 10:38 AM

Here's an important note on dosages.

 

In at least two papers i've seen this 100mcg and 200mcg of NGF dosage quoted.

 

for example:

http://www.pnas.org/.../13469.full.pdf

 

Quote:

Initially, 2 doses of NGF (100 and 200  ug/mL) were tested
on 24 rats, and the higher dose was found to be more effective.

 

I now believe that this is misleading, because in another paper:

"The nerve growth factor administered as eye drops..."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21701992

 

They state:

 

We found that a single ocular administration (10 μl) of 200 μg/mL NGF solution

is sufficient to enhance the distribution of Ki67 positive cells also expressing

p75 neurotrophin receptors in the proliferating layer of the SVZ

 

My point is:  where you've read mention of 100 mcg and 200 mcg ... this isn't the dosage, it's the concentration.

The dosage is 10 μl .... from a solution which has a concentration of either 100mcg/mL or 200mcg/mL

 

So i presume there would be 20 lots of ...10 μl... in a 1mL solution containing (200 μg/mL).

And presumably that means that the actual dosage is 10mcg of NGF, and not (in this case) 200mcg

 

(This would put the dosage much closer to the 0.04mcg dosage used by John McMichael)

 

best wishes

 

playground


Edited by playground, 01 June 2015 - 10:53 AM.

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#110 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 04:28 PM

I found the European Brain Research Institute, of which Levi-Montalcini was president until a few years ago. If anyone knows her dosage and source of NGF, they would. Phone numbers are posted on the site (bottom of front page).

 

Especially if you speak scientific Italian, or have a friend who does, you could really help us learn something here. (I would hate for something critical to get lost in translation.)

 

http://www.ebri.it<- Native (Italian)

http://www.ebri.it/en<- English

 

These people might also know:

 

http://beckerexhibit...montalcini.html

 

I believe she dropped NGF into her eyes for decades, and as such, is probably the gold standard of safe administration, if only we knew the dose and source.


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#111 Ark

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 04:37 PM

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Nerve Growth Factor
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by Adam R. Navis Keywords: Nerve growth factor, Chicks
Nerve growth factor (NGF) is a signaling protein and growth factor implicated in a wide range of development and maintenance functions. NGF was discovered through a series of experiments in the 1950s on the development of the chick nervous system. Since its discovery, NGF has been found to act in a variety of tissues throughout development and adulthood. It has been implicated in immune function, stress response, nerve maintenance, and in neurodegenerative diseases. It is named for its effect on the critical role it plays in the growth and organization of the nervous system during embryonic development.

The discovery proceeded in several steps. Mouse sarcoma 180 was discovered to have nerve growth properties. Rita Levi-Montalcini, working with Viktor Hamburger, showed the abnormal growth in vivo of chick sympathetic and sensory ganglia in the presence of that tumor. The conclusions of this study left two options for the action of the tumor: it may have acted directly to stimulate nerve growth of the ganglia or it may simply have disrupted the normal development, indirectly allowing increased development of the nerve fibers. Levi-Montalcini conducted a study on the effects of various tumors in vitro to isolate the effect of the tumor and the ganglia. She demonstrated that specific tumors were capable of inducing nerve growth.

The experiments conducted by Levi-Montalcini demonstrated that NGF was diffusible, by revealing that the tumors never made direct contact with the ganglia they stimulated. The next step was to isolate an extract of NGF to show the activity of only the substance itself. Stanley Cohen, a biochemist, joined Hamburger’s lab and successfully purified NGF. He also determined the factor to be mostly composed of protein with some nucleic acids. Certain types of snake venom contain an enzyme that degrades nucleic acids. Cohen used this snake venom to determine whether this protein was a nucleoprotein, which would require nucleic acids for function. When the snake venom mixture was added to ganglia, even more growth was observed, contrary to what was expected. The snake venom contained large quantities of NGF. As a less toxic homologue, mouse salivary glands were used for later experimentation. In 1960 the protein was successfully purified, and in 1971 the amino acid sequence was determined.

Subsequent research on NGF has demonstrated that it acts as a signaling protein. The signaling mechanism consists of the signal and a receptor, which interprets the signal and begins a cascade of reactions within a cell. In the context of neural development, NGF is produced by nerves in target tissues, which stimulate and guide the growth of nerve fibers toward the target. These target tissues include skin, muscle, and vascular tissue. The receptors are produced by nerves of the sensory and peripheral nervous system, which allow the cell to receive the NGF signal. The receptors are active during development and expression wanes in the organism's adulthood, except during injury when nerves must be regenerated or protected. When the receptor binds with NGF many signaling pathways can be initiated and each determines a different cellular response. The specific pathway is determined by the state of the cell and which of the two receptors is bound. These pathways determine maintenance functions, cell growth, or cell death when NGF is no longer present.

NGF is present outside the nervous system. Various bone marrow leukocytes have been shown to produce either NGF or an NGF receptor, demonstrating a role in immune function. Stressful conditions have been shown to stimulate the production of NGF in the mouse submandibular salivary gland. Repair functions in the nervous system are mediated by NGF. This includes the regrowth of nerve fibers, but also plays a role in protecting nerve fibers from toxic effects of repair processes in adjacent tissues. Some neurodegenerative diseases have been linked to decreases in NGF. Clinical trials of replacement NGF have resulted in a wide variety of undesirable effects. These effects occur in many tissues throughout the bodies of humans and animals, demonstrating the widespread utilization of NGF and the need to target NGF delivery in a clinical setting.

Embryonic development of the nervous system depends on NGF. NGF is also a critical intercellular signal utilized in many tissues over the life of an organism. The discovery of NGF led to an award of the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Rita Levi-Montalcini and Stanley Cohen in 1986. Research on NGF significantly increased in the 1990s as the fine details of its mechanism were discovered and analyzed. In recent years, NGF has been studied in clinical trials as a treatment for neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s disease. NGF is an important signal in the development and maintenance of the nervous system and a variety of tissues throughout the life of an organism.

Sources

Cowan, W. Maxwell. “Viktor Hamburger and Rita Levi-Montalcini: The Path to the Discovery of Nerve Growth Factor.” Annual Review of Neuroscience 24 (2001): 551–600.
Frade, José Mariá, and Yves-Alain Barde. “Nerve Growth Factor: Two Receptors, Multiple Functions.” BioEssays: News and Reviews in Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology 20 (1998): 137–145.
Levi-Montalcini, Rita. “The Nerve Growth Factor 35 Years Later.” Science 237 (1987): 1154–62.
Sofroniew, M. V., C. L. Howe, and W. C. Mobley. “Nerve Growth Factor Signaling, Neuroprotection, and Neural Repair.” Annual Review of Neuroscience 24 (2001): 1217–81.
Subject:

Nerve Growth Factor; Nerve growth factor; Nerve Growth Factor; Nerve growth factor; Concept

Topic:

Processes

How to Cite:

Navis, Adam R., "Nerve Growth Factor". Embryo Project Encyclopedia (2007-10-30). ISSN: 1940-5030 http://embryo.asu.ed...ndle/10776/1674.

Last Modified:

Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 11:53

Publisher:

Arizona State University. School of Life Sciences. Center for Biology and Society. Embryo Project Encyclopedia.

Rights:

© Arizona Board of Regents Licensed as Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) http://creativecommo...s/by-nc-sa/3.0/

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#112 Metagene

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:38 PM

Sorry, am I missing something here?

 

Turning back to nerve growth factor, the main obstacle to its use in these therapies lies in the fact that concentrations of such magnitude have to be conveyed to the brain tissues that they cannot be taken via the normal administration methods. In fact, all the currently conducted studies have shown NGF effectiveness only if administered intracerebrally (intracerebroventricularly), since this molecule is unable to pass through the blood-brain barrier in therapeutic concentrations via systemic administration. The most recent therapeutic strategy for NGF use as an anti-AD drug is based on the intracerebral inoculation of genetically modified cells such that they locally release NGF (Tuszynski M.H. et al., J. Mol. Neurosci., 19(1-2):207, 2002; Tuszynski M.H. et al., Nat. Med., 11 (5):551-5,2005).

 

 

 

 

The possibility that NGF could exert a biological action on brain tissues following topical ophthalmic administration was hardly foreseeable, above all, in view of the fact that - as highlighted above - NGF is a molecule of considerable size (26,800 dalton) with a complex structure. In order for a molecule to have any action on brain tissues, then - once instilled on the eye surface - it must be able to pass through the eye tissues and reach the optic nerve and cerebrospinal fluid in order to exert its own biological activity on the brain region. In current practice, ocular administration is not used for treating brain pathologies. The foregoing is due to the fact that all the known studies concerning NGF use in brain pathologies have only employed intracerebral administration.
[0038]
In actual fact, although having a complex structure and a high molecular weight, NGF has both hydrophilic and hydrophobic structural groups which enable it to pass through the homologous (lipid and hydrophilic) anatomical barriers. Moreover, a fundamental feature of NGF is that once it reaches the target organs even at very low, but biologically active, concentrations, it can stimulate the endogenous production of NGF by the tissue itself. The presence of an endogenous fraction of NGF is clearly borne out by the results of experiments (which will be illustrated below) on the passage of NGF through tissues. These results also show that a concentration gradient is not maintained from the external surface of the eye towards the brain, as had been hypothesised for a simple diffusion mechanism through tissues.

 

 

http://www.google.co...nts/EP1948217B1

 

Safety and Pharmacokinetics of Escalating Doses of Human Recombinant Nerve Growth Factor Eye Drops in a Double-Masked, Randomized Clinical Trial

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4030100/

 

Nerve growth factor: from the early discoveries to the potential clinical use

 

http://www.translati...t/10/1/239#B205


Edited by Metagene, 01 June 2015 - 08:20 PM.

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#113 playground

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:01 PM

I found the European Brain Research Institute, of which Levi-Montalcini was president until a few years ago. If anyone knows her dosage and source of NGF, they would. Phone numbers are posted on the site (bottom of front page).

 

Especially if you speak scientific Italian, or have a friend who does, you could really help us learn something here. (I would hate for something critical to get lost in translation.)

 

http://www.ebri.it<- Native (Italian)

http://www.ebri.it/en<- English

 

These people might also know:

 

http://beckerexhibit...montalcini.html

 

I believe she dropped NGF into her eyes for decades, and as such, is probably the gold standard of safe administration, if only we knew the dose and source.

 

Thanks  RG,

 

I think you're absolutely right: 

Rita used these eye drops for decades, she _is_ the model to follow for using NGF safely

.... so we so need to know:

(a) the dose and

(b) the source.

 

Playground.

 

 



#114 playground

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:17 PM

Certain types of snake venom contain an enzyme that degrades nucleic acids. Cohen used this snake venom to determine whether this protein was a nucleoprotein, which would require nucleic acids for function. When the snake venom mixture was added to ganglia, even more growth was observed, contrary to what was expected. The snake venom contained large quantities of NGF. As a less toxic homologue, mouse salivary glands were used for later experimentation.


NGF is present outside the nervous system. Various bone marrow leukocytes have been shown to produce either NGF or an NGF receptor, demonstrating a role in immune function. Stressful conditions have been shown to stimulate the production of NGF in the mouse submandibular salivary gland. Repair functions in the nervous system are mediated by NGF. This includes the regrowth of nerve fibers, but also plays a role in protecting nerve fibers from toxic effects of repair processes in adjacent tissues. Some neurodegenerative diseases have been linked to decreases in NGF. Clinical trials of replacement NGF have resulted in a wide variety of undesirable effects. These effects occur in many tissues throughout the bodies of humans and animals, demonstrating the widespread utilization of NGF and the need to target NGF delivery in a clinical setting.



- See more at: http://embryo.asu.ed...th-factor#.dpuf

 

Thanks for posting that article Ark,

 

Two points: 

1) I wonder if it was the 'mouse salivary glands' NGF that Rita was using.

2) Wide variety of 'undesirable' effects .. is worrying..

    and seems to confirm what McMichaels was said about Genentech's finding of toxicity.

 

Playground

 



#115 playground

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:29 PM

Sorry, am I missing something here?

 

Turning back to nerve growth factor, the main obstacle to its use in these therapies lies in the fact that concentrations of such magnitude have to be conveyed to the brain tissues that they cannot be taken via the normal administration methods. In fact, all the currently conducted studies have shown NGF effectiveness only if administered intracerebrally (intracerebroventricularly), since this molecule is unable to pass through the blood-brain barrier in therapeutic concentrations via systemic administration. The most recent therapeutic strategy for NGF use as an anti-AD drug is based on the intracerebral inoculation of genetically modified cells such that they locally release NGF (Tuszynski M.H. et al., J. Mol. Neurosci., 19(1-2):207, 2002; Tuszynski M.H. et al., Nat. Med., 11 (5):551-5,2005).

 

 

 

 

The possibility that NGF could exert a biological action on brain tissues following topical ophthalmic administration was hardly foreseeable, above all, in view of the fact that - as highlighted above - NGF is a molecule of considerable size (26,800 dalton) with a complex structure. In order for a molecule to have any action on brain tissues, then - once instilled on the eye surface - it must be able to pass through the eye tissues and reach the optic nerve and cerebrospinal fluid in order to exert its own biological activity on the brain region. In current practice, ocular administration is not used for treating brain pathologies. The foregoing is due to the fact that all the known studies concerning NGF use in brain pathologies have only employed intracerebral administration.
[0038]
In actual fact, although having a complex structure and a high molecular weight, NGF has both hydrophilic and hydrophobic structural groups which enable it to pass through the homologous (lipid and hydrophilic) anatomical barriers. Moreover, a fundamental feature of NGF is that once it reaches the target organs even at very low, but biologically active, concentrations, it can stimulate the endogenous production of NGF by the tissue itself. The presence of an endogenous fraction of NGF is clearly borne out by the results of experiments (which will be illustrated below) on the passage of NGF through tissues. These results also show that a concentration gradient is not maintained from the external surface of the eye towards the brain, as had been hypothesised for a simple diffusion mechanism through tissues.

 

 

http://www.google.co...nts/EP1948217B1

 

Safety and Pharmacokinetics of Escalating Doses of Human Recombinant Nerve Growth Factor Eye Drops in a Double-Masked, Randomized Clinical Trial

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4030100/

 

Nerve growth factor: from the early discoveries to the potential clinical use

 

http://www.translati...t/10/1/239#B205

 

Hi Metagene,

 

Thank you for posting these links.  I appreciate it. :-)

 

Playground.
 



#116 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 12:09 AM

I think metagene's doubts are rational, considering the considerable size of NGF. However, at least in mice, ocular administration reaches the forebrain (at least) and helps to repair cholinergic neurons there.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17970722

 

But Levi-Montalcini's case is in and of itself, illuminating. 75% of centenarians have Alzheimer's. By contrast, on her 100th birthday, she gave a seminar at which she asserted: "The brain has two hemispheres, one ancient or archaic, which governs our emotions and instincts, the other younger, which governs our capacity to reason. Today the archaic brain tends to dominate. It is the cause of all the tragedies that happen like the Shoah (the Holocaust) and it is putting an end to humanity today. It was the part of our brains which got us down from the trees, but it is the cause of all the disasters and the cause of the great danger to our planet today. It is taking the human race toward extinction. The end is already at hand.” Whether or not you share her pessimism, you have to admit, she doesn't sound like a demented old fool. Frankly, I'm not sure I could keep up with her lectures at my age of 41.

 

Is this merely the story of a healthy woman who lived a long life and just happened to be exceptionally lucky, not only to have avoided Alzheimer's, but to have remained in such a state of mental competence as to forge such abstract monologues? Or is there some more mundane explanation? Personally, I suspect a posthumous doping scandal: she cheated with NGF.

 

http://excelle.monst...band-no-regrets

 


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#117 normalizing

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 08:31 AM

my brain functions better today than it did was I was 20”. that would be funny if she actually said it and its a direct quote but not typo from the journalist....



#118 playground

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 08:56 AM

my brain functions better today than it did was I was 20”. that would be funny if she actually said it and its a direct quote but not typo from the journalist....

 

There is video footage of her being interviewed.

She was interviewed by a slow talking american (academic) interviewer about NGF.

He was doing the usual flattery of how much of a significant contribution she'd made

in her field and how she'd eventually (years later) earned a Nobel prize... etc.

 

In the toing and froing of the following conversation i remember reflecting that she

was talking much more rapidly than he was.  He hum'd and harr'd as he searched

mentally for the names of scientists etc.  She didn't.   And what impressed me in

particular, was that she was doing this in her second language.  Her mother tongue

being Italian.  And then when you factor in that she was in her late 90's.

Damned impressive !

 

She was quite open to doing interviews on camera.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is video footage of her actually uttering those words

    "my brain functions better today then it did when i was 20".

 

Probably... the bulk of her videos were done in Italian.

 

Playground


Edited by playground, 02 June 2015 - 08:57 AM.

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#119 playground

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 10:43 AM

 

 

Turning back to nerve growth factor, the main obstacle to its use in these therapies lies in the fact that concentrations of such magnitude have to be conveyed to the brain tissues that they cannot be taken via the normal administration methods. In fact, all the currently conducted studies have shown NGF effectiveness only if administered intracerebrally (intracerebroventricularly), since this molecule is unable to pass through the blood-brain barrier in therapeutic concentrations via systemic administration. The most recent therapeutic strategy for NGF use as an anti-AD drug is based on the intracerebral inoculation of genetically modified cells such that they locally release NGF (Tuszynski M.H. et al., J. Mol. Neurosci., 19(1-2):207, 2002; Tuszynski M.H. et al., Nat. Med., 11 (5):551-5,2005).

 

 

 

 

The possibility that NGF could exert a biological action on brain tissues following topical ophthalmic administration was hardly foreseeable, above all, in view of the fact that - as highlighted above - NGF is a molecule of considerable size (26,800 dalton) with a complex structure. In order for a molecule to have any action on brain tissues, then - once instilled on the eye surface - it must be able to pass through the eye tissues and reach the optic nerve and cerebrospinal fluid in order to exert its own biological activity on the brain region. In current practice, ocular administration is not used for treating brain pathologies. The foregoing is due to the fact that all the known studies concerning NGF use in brain pathologies have only employed intracerebral administration.
[0038]
In actual fact, although having a complex structure and a high molecular weight, NGF has both hydrophilic and hydrophobic structural groups which enable it to pass through the homologous (lipid and hydrophilic) anatomical barriers. Moreover, a fundamental feature of NGF is that once it reaches the target organs even at very low, but biologically active, concentrations, it can stimulate the endogenous production of NGF by the tissue itself. The presence of an endogenous fraction of NGF is clearly borne out by the results of experiments (which will be illustrated below) on the passage of NGF through tissues. These results also show that a concentration gradient is not maintained from the external surface of the eye towards the brain, as had been hypothesised for a simple diffusion mechanism through tissues.

 

 

http://www.google.co...nts/EP1948217B1

 

 

 

On the basis of the two quotes Metagene has provided you might be tempted to believe:

 

1.  Only intracerebral injections of NGF are effective.

And this is because:

2.  The NGF molecule is too big (28,000) daltons (daltons is basically atomic mass)

3.  The NGF doesn't enter the body from the eye.

(Though the highlight section here is contradictory... the concentration gradient is NOT maintained,

this would mean that the NGF _is_ seeping into the body).

 

However, the patent cited by Metagene proves just the opposite:

1. Intercerebral injects are _not_ the  only effective means of administration.

2  Despite the size of the protein, it is both soluble in water and soluble oil and can seemingly

   travel easily through membranes of all kinds.

3. That NGF in eye drops _does_ enter the brain and travels efficiently to _all_ brain areas.
 

For example:

 

 

[0045]
In a first set of tests to evaluate the passage of NGF intraocularly from the external surface, on which it is administered, to the brain tissues, the aforesaid autoradiographic method was used on a group of six rabbits. Each of the rabbits received one collyrium drop (50 µl) containing 10 µg of I125 labelled NGF (concentration: 200 µg/ml) by instillation in the conjunctival fornix.
[0046]

....
Two hours following the administration of the labelled NGF, the animals were sacrificed and the brains dissected and fixed in 4% paraformaldehyde for 48 hours. Then, after incubation in 30% sucrose for 24 hours, the samples were cut with a cryostat to 15 µm thick sections, which were mounted on histology gelatinous slides, immersed in photographic emulsion (Ilford K2) and incubated for 4 weeks at 4°C. The sections were then dehydrated with ethanol, mounted with DPX after treatment with xylene and examined with a Zeiss optical microscope.
[0048]
This experiment demonstrated that, once administered on the eye surface, the labelled NGF was able to penetrate into the eye and to bond with cells of various brain tissues (including the cortex, hippocampus, basal forebrain, substantia nigra, locus coeruleus, hypothalamus and basal nucleus) expressing the specific receptor.

source:  http://www.google.co...nts/EP1948217B1

 

Firstly, here's confirmation of my earlier post on dosage.

Here, they apply a drop of solution to the eyes of rabits. The concentration is 200mcg/mL. 

The drop volume is 50 ul.  It contains 10mcg of NGF (in this case, radioactively labelled NGF)

 

Second,  they took 6 rabbits, dropped radioactively labelled NGF into their eyes and then

killed them two hours later to see where the NGF had gone.  Where had the NGF gone ?

It had traversed into the entire brain.  It had gone where ever the NGF receptor was present.

This is a remarkably effective delivery system.

 

If you now consider Metagene's first quote (above) it's clear that

.. that quote is utterly misleading.

 

Third, this is a remarkable finding. 

NGF in eye drops finds it's way to _all_ areas of the brain.

The question is, how does it do this?

 

Two choices here, either:
(a) the NGF _diffuses_ to these brain regions.
(b) the NGF causes a _cascade_of_signalling_ to (presumably millions or billions) of brain cells

for them to release (or produce) their own NGF.

You might argue, it doesn't matter which option is 'true'.  
It only matters that we get the desired NGF release within the brain.  

However, my view is that it does matter because:
If it's option (a) then you'll be concerned to drop a sufficiently large dose of NGF into the eye.
However, if it's option (b) then (presumably) you need a much smaller dose to kick off the signalling.

Option (a) might correspond to the 4mcg to 400mcg range (suspected of Genentech)
Option (b) might correspond to the 0.04mcg range of McMichaels

 

(However, here we know that they used a dosage of 10mcg from a solution of 200mcg/mL).

 

Fourth, The above experiment was replicated. 

 

In this study, a total of 24 rats were used, six of which were sacrificed immediately
in order to determine the baseline values of NGF concentration in the various brain tissues.
The remaining animals were sacrificed 2 hours (6 rats), 6 hours (6 rats) and 24 hours (6 rats)
after eye-drop administration.

NGF levels in various brain tissues after NGF administration in the form of eye-drops (NGF pg/g of tissue)

 

HOURS (A)          (B)               ©          (D)            (E)            (F)            (G)             (H)
0           20±7       70±12     135±32     102±23       98±34       75±36     170±45     112±24
2          90±15     120±17     176±14     153±34     178±25     154±71     286±71     165±31
6        530±59     312±52     212±23     264±68     329±60     312±79     396±54     254±42
24        30±12       81±20     127±21     120±31     135±59       91±84     198±38     131±39

KEY to Columns:
(A) cerebro-spinal fluid     
(B) cortex     
© hippocampus     
(D) basal forebrain     
(E) substantia nigra     
(F) locus coeru-leus     
(G) hypothalamus     
(H) basal nucleus

This study doesn't allow us to come to conclusions about whether option (a) or option (b) is true.
These numbers might be obtained via either route.  But what this data does do is show us that
seemingly all brain areas are bathed in substantially higher levels of NGF for (at least) the
next 24 hours. 

 

I wish they'd have sacrificed 6 more rats at 12 hours so we'd have a better idea
of how high those numbers really go.... and maybe, again at 18 hours so we get an idea of the
rate of decline from the apex.

 

So, in summary.

 

1.  It's not true that _only_ inter-cerebral injections are effective.

2.  It's not true that the NGF molecule is somehow 'too big' to enter the body or to cross the blood brain barrier.

3.  It's not true NGF can't enter the brain from the eye.

 

Some pivotal points to note here are:

 

=> These experiments were done with 'murine' NGF.

     Murine means, 'of or relating to mice'.

     Rita Levi-Montalchini & Cohen decided to go the route of extracting NGF from mice (rather than cobras)

     and the majority of all NGF data is based on mouse NGF.  Many (perhaps most) of those papers were written by Rita.

 

=> There is a difference between human and mouse NGF.

     Mouse NGF is denoted (mNGF)

     We currently artificially synthesise human NGF.  It's called recombinant human NGF (rhNGF)

     To quote the second of Metagene's references (above)

     There is 90 % homology in the amino acid sequence of the mature human and mNGF protein.
     (source: http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC4030100/)

     In other words, there are 10% differences.... similar, but not the same)

 

=> I remember reading somewhere (but at the moment i can't back this up with a reference) that Rita

     was using these eye drops for 40 years.  Let's imagine that that's true.

     If she started using the drops 40 years ago, that means she started around 1975. When she was in her 60's

     Human recombinant NGF (rhNGF) was invented in 1995.  The paper about it's creation was published in 1996. 

     So that suggests that Rita was using murine NGF for at least twenty years.

     (She specifically chose not to use Cobra NGF, in her research, for safety reasons).

 

=>  So, you might think: 'Great! we know the dosage, we know the source' (10mcg of mNGF, applied once per day)

      But wait a moment, there are potential problems in using chemicals from other animals.

      Consider the 'bio-identical hormones' movement.  The estrogen given to women for Hormone Replacement Therapy

      and contraception purposes is actually equine (horse) estrogen.  It's extracted from the urine of pregnant horses. 

      This estrogen is very nearly the same,  but is in fact slightly different. 

      It seems to do the trick.  It has the expected effects.

      But long term this stuff has complications...  it has long term toxic effects on women.

      There's a famous, and very compelling book on this, by Suzzane Summers,  'Ageless'. 

      Very readable, very interesting, i recommend it... you can probably get a used copy from amazon for a couple of dollars.

      The 'bio-identical hormones' movement says:  We want human hormones, not hormones from other animals.

      Because even tiny differences between human and horse estrogen can have long term health consequences.

 

Playground    

 


Edited by playground, 02 June 2015 - 10:50 AM.

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#120 Ark

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 11:31 AM

https://www.google.c...s-sFgGGK2jpFHgw





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