612 replies to this topic

[playground]

I finally got a quote for rhNGF ..... but ..... it's  not good.

 

 

This is Daly Xie from Wuhan Golden Wing Industry & Trade Co.,Ltd. I am so glad to quote to you.

 

Please kindly check our quote with details as follow:

 

Product: Recombinant Human Beta- Nerve Growth Factor
Quality: 50μg
Package: 50ug/pack
Delivery: Prompt delivery, 2015
Price: USD285
Courier: USD45
Total: USD330 for 50μg contain the shipping cost to Switzerland

 

Attached is the specifications for your reference. Have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Thanks & Best Regards

Daly Xie (Ms)

 

Wuhan Golden Wing Industry & Trade Co.,Ltd.

Address: Room 1101,Building 2-2,DaJiang Yuan(North Garden),

JiangDa Road,JiangAn District,Wuhan 430015,China

Web: www.golden-wing.com.cn

Alibaba Website: http://goldenwing.en.alibaba.com/

Tel: 0086 27 82650805

Fax: 0086 27 59204117 

Email: bag@golden-wing.com.cn  

Skype: daly.xie (bag@golden-wing.com.cn)

 

by my reckoning.. that's $5700 per milligram.

 

Playground.

 

Edited by playground, 11 June 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

by my reckoning.. that's $5700 per milligram.

 

Playground.

 

Yikes! At least, I can improve a bit on that. I got a quote for $2700 for 4 mg ($675/mg) of this NGF from a lab in Isreal. (Everyone, please do not contact them until either (1) we decide not to use them, but you wish to do so on your own or (2) we get our order together and are ready to talk to them after achieving consensus here.) They say it's "100%" peptide content, which sounds like an overestimate of purity; still, Isreal is highly regulated with regards to this sort of product. The receptionist was quite helpful and said that I could obtain a further discount with increasing quantity. I explained to her that, most likely, I would want individual 1 mg vials. Shipping is $35 to US, and probably similar to Europe and elsewhere. No bullshit about needing to own a cosmetics company etc. Then again, the cosmetics route is waaaaaaay cheaper if it can be made to work.

 

Now, at 10 ug/day, 4 mg should last about a year, including some wasted product. So at least, we now have an option within the realm of sanity, from a source which is likely solid. If people prefer this over $100/mg cosmetic NGF, then we can do further diligence to see if these folks are trustworthy.

 

NOTE: This is "beta NGF", whose molecular weight (27 KDa) matches Metagene's estimate of 26 KDa. However, I've seen other human NGF listed as being over 50 KDa. One explanation might be that this is merely the "beta" region of NGF, which contains alpha, beta, and gamma regions. That obviously would not be acceptable. But I think this "beta" refers to something else. If anyone knows about this, please explain.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 11 June 2015 - 03:52 PM.

[curious_george]

I don't think it needs to be too complex for the SK delivery.  95-98% is good for me.  In my experience the purity tends to be closer to 99% with a lot of these labs.  I have experience ordering different powders from asia and have always had an easy time. It sounds like all that SK company needs is to ship to a business preferably cosmetics.  One can simply open a sole proprietorship and call it Group Buy Cosmetics or something hehe.  As long as they can aliquot 1mg per vial so it can easily be split up and forwarded on to the GB members then it'll be really smooth. I'd rather not take the reins on this but am happy to contribute to the buy

Edited by positiveeddy, 11 June 2015 - 07:18 PM.

[Debonaire_Death]

I'd love to throw in for 1mg, please!

[resveratrol_guy]

OK so what do people prefer to pursue? Tell us:

 

1. Vendor

A. Purified isolate from snake venom, unknown price but probably cheapest (see Ark's posts)

B. Cosmetic NGF supplier @ 92-95% purity from South Korea, $100/mg

C. Isreali supplier @ 99% purity, $675/mg

D. Someone else

 

With option B, realistically, I don't think anyone is going to set up a company just for this. We would have it keep it alive forever just to service group buys. Even if the company made 5% margin, it wouldn't justify the tax filiings etc. We would need to find an existing cosmetics company willing to deal. Not impossible, but not fast. But it doesn't matter what I think, so much as what you all think.

 

2. How many mg? This isn't set in stone, but please be realistic because it's a basis of price negotiation with the supplier.

 

If we can get some consensus ASAP, then I think we can arrange for purchase. Shipping is going to be the same, more or less, for all vendors.

 

Once we settle on a vendor and approximate quantity, we can set up a separate thread just for the group buy.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 11 June 2015 - 10:05 PM.

[dz93]

A, if not A then B. Put me down for 1mg.

[playground]

OK so what do people prefer to pursue? Tell us:

 

1. Vendor

A. Purified isolate from snake venom, unknown price but probably cheapest (see Ark's posts)

B. Cosmetic NGF supplier @ 92-95% purity from South Korea, $100/mg

C. Isreali supplier @ 99% purity, $675/mg

D. Someone else

 

With option B, realistically, I don't think anyone is going to set up a company just for this. We would have it keep it alive forever just to service group buys. Even if the company made 5% margin, it wouldn't justify the tax filiings etc. We would need to find an existing cosmetics company willing to deal. Not impossible, but not fast. But it doesn't matter what I think, so much as what you all think.

 

2. How many mg? This isn't set in stone, but please be realistic because it's a basis of price negotiation with the supplier.

 

If we can get some consensus ASAP, then I think we can arrange for purchase. Shipping is going to be the same, more or less, for all vendors.

 

Once we settle on a vendor and approximate quantity, we can set up a separate thread just for the group buy.

 

Good post RG,

 

I have two points:

 

(1)  I've got a funny feeling that (B) is not what it seems to be.

I don't believe that anyone is seriously putting rhNGF into cosmetics.

 

I suspect their 'nerve growth factor' ... is a marketing term like ....'nanospheres'

...  which was an ingredient in some facial cream advertised on european tv a few years back.
What are 'nanospheres' ? ... a cheap moisturiser with small lumps in it.

 

I think we need to be careful with option (B)... it might not be as advertised.

 

(2)  I recommend patience. 

Haste and regret travel together.

If we give ourselves another week, we'll find another X number of options.

Perhaps we'll find suppliers offering better quality, perhaps cheaper prices, perhaps both.

 

So i want to add a fifth option to RG's menu of choices (above)

 

F) Wait 7 days so that we can:

    (i)   find more suppliers and

    (ii)  learn more about buying, handling and storing  rhNGF.

 

But in answer to the options above, i'm most inclined towards options (A) and {C}.

Ark might well be absolutely right about venom derived NGF.

I'm a little put off by this option because of the 'danger' associations of snake venom.

.... but this is a completely uninformed prejudice/fear on my part.

Someone should spend the time researching about snake venom NGF.

What is it exactly ? 

How much does  it cost ?

Is it exactly the same as rhNGF ? 

Is it merely an active analogue of rhNGF ?

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 11 June 2015 - 11:24 PM.

[dz93]

F

[resveratrol_guy]

 

OK so what do people prefer to pursue? Tell us:

 

1. Vendor

A. Purified isolate from snake venom, unknown price but probably cheapest (see Ark's posts)

B. Cosmetic NGF supplier @ 92-95% purity from South Korea, $100/mg

C. Isreali supplier @ 99% purity, $675/mg

D. Someone else

 

With option B, realistically, I don't think anyone is going to set up a company just for this. We would have it keep it alive forever just to service group buys. Even if the company made 5% margin, it wouldn't justify the tax filiings etc. We would need to find an existing cosmetics company willing to deal. Not impossible, but not fast. But it doesn't matter what I think, so much as what you all think.

 

2. How many mg? This isn't set in stone, but please be realistic because it's a basis of price negotiation with the supplier.

 

If we can get some consensus ASAP, then I think we can arrange for purchase. Shipping is going to be the same, more or less, for all vendors.

 

Once we settle on a vendor and approximate quantity, we can set up a separate thread just for the group buy.

 

Good post RG,

 

I have two points:

 

(1)  I've got a funny feeling that (B) is not what it seems to be.

I don't believe that anyone is seriously putting rhNGF into cosmetics.

 

I suspect their 'nerve growth factor' ... is a marketing term like ....'nanospheres'

...  which was an ingredient in some facial cream advertised on european tv a few years back.
What are 'nanospheres' ... a moisturiser with small lumps in it.

 

I think we need to be careful with option (B)... it might not be as advertised.

 

(2)  I recommend patience. 

Haste and regret travel together.

If we give ourselves another week, we'll find another X number of options.

Perhaps we'll find suppliers offering better quality, perhaps cheaper prices, perhaps both.

 

So i want to add a fifth option to RG's menu of choices (above)

 

F) Wait 7 days so that we can:

    (i)   find more suppliers and

    (ii)  learn more about buying, handling and storing  rhNGF.

 

But in answer to the options above, i'm most inclined towards options (A) and {C}.

Ark might well be absolutely right about venom derived NGF.

I'm a little put off by this option because of the 'danger' associations of snake venom.

.... but this is a completely uninformed prejudice/fear on my part.

Someone should spend the time researching about snake venom NGF.

What is it exactly ? 

How much does  it cost ?

Is it exactly the same as rhNGF ? 

Is it merely an active analogue of rhNGF ?

 

Playground.

 

 

As to snake venom NGF, obviously the first question is as you pointed out: what is it? But let's say we accept that it's human NGF. Then the question is: how is it produced and refined? It is some horrible third world snake farm, with who-knows-what in the food and water being fed to the snakes? Does the refiner know how to refine it properly? How do we know? Clearly, we could obtain an independent analysis from a third-party lab, but how often would we need to do so and at what cost? How often might the NGF refiner change suppliers because suddenly someone opens a cheaper snake farm next to an ultrapolluted river or toxic waste dump? Is it possible to refine dirty snake venom into clean NGF? Sure. Is that easily verified? Not sure.

 

The impression I got from speaking to the cosmetic supplier CEO was that he's probably honest. And again, this could be verified. My concern is more with what else is present, but the answer is likely to be related to whatever nutrients are being supplied to the E. Coli which make the NGF. That tends to be well controlled, as compared to whatever snake farm is selling the cheapest raw venom this week.

 

All else being equal, I prefer the Isreali option, because frankly $3K/year to potentially write off Alzheimer's is pocket change. And it does make some sense to start with the best, so we can compare to cheaper grades later, instead of taking the cheap stuff first and just giving up on NGF because it doesn't work due to weird impurities.

 

As to more time, I think Google has us covered. It's unlikely that there's some unknown vendor hiding out there who is much cheaper than the ones we've identified at the various quality grades. I think it's safe to say that if Google doesn't know about them, they're probably not large enough to be serious about making NGF. That said, due to my own preoccupation with Longvida at the moment, I probably won't be able to make the time requirements of this first group buy, so if you all would prefer to wait, I have no complaints.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 11 June 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[curious_george]

OK so what do people prefer to pursue? Tell us:

 

1. Vendor

A. Purified isolate from snake venom, unknown price but probably cheapest (see Ark's posts)

B. Cosmetic NGF supplier @ 92-95% purity from South Korea, $100/mg

C. Isreali supplier @ 99% purity, $675/mg

D. Someone else

Option B for me @ 5mg - I'm perfectly find with 95% if that's what it ends up being but I do suspect it'll end up higher based on my past experience thus far with all asia suppliers giving higher quality than advertised - that being said I wouldn't mind having an explanation for the potential impurities that make the last 5% or so and we can't just assume it'll be higher than 95% if that's what they're saying.. if this was injection i'd be in favor of option C but I'll be doing the nasal spray most likely..

-if option C ends up being preferred then ill get 1mg or better yet - my $ cap is about $600 or so..

-i do not mind waiting a few weeks if it means we can potentially find better/cheaper alternatives..

[Ark]

All methods should be pursued, that way when we get to final figures, we can choose?

[resveratrol_guy]

While we're waiting, I tracked down the spec sheet for option B. It sounds like they deliver NGF in solution. If anyone thinks that those ingredients may be toxic to the eyes or brain, definitely speak up. We also need to ensure that they have proper methods of preventing E. coli infection of the solution itself, after chromatographic extraction of NGF from the bacterial soup. (This is obvious, but you never know.)

 

I'm still working on getting a cosmetics company lined up in case, as it seems, we're leaning toward this option because no one doing high purity can touch $100/mg.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 12 June 2015 - 03:23 AM.

[Debonaire_Death]

OK so what do people prefer to pursue? Tell us:

 

1. Vendor

A. Purified isolate from snake venom, unknown price but probably cheapest (see Ark's posts)

B. Cosmetic NGF supplier @ 92-95% purity from South Korea, $100/mg

C. Isreali supplier @ 99% purity, $675/mg

D. Someone else

 

With option B, realistically, I don't think anyone is going to set up a company just for this. We would have it keep it alive forever just to service group buys. Even if the company made 5% margin, it wouldn't justify the tax filiings etc. We would need to find an existing cosmetics company willing to deal. Not impossible, but not fast. But it doesn't matter what I think, so much as what you all think.

 

2. How many mg? This isn't set in stone, but please be realistic because it's a basis of price negotiation with the supplier.

 

If we can get some consensus ASAP, then I think we can arrange for purchase. Shipping is going to be the same, more or less, for all vendors.

 

Once we settle on a vendor and approximate quantity, we can set up a separate thread just for the group buy.

 

Well, if we're going with the Israeli supplier, at $675/mg I would only conscionably afford myself 100-150µg, and something about trying to use a form of NGF made for topical application sounds sketchy. I'm fine with throwing in on it for a mg if the synth is organized and ready to go, though.

 

The snake venom isolate sounds like a good choice if it is, in fact, NGF. I think it would be great to see what the pricing would look like for that option.

Edited by Debonaire_Death, 12 June 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[dz93]

I'm really only looking to spend $150 max. I'm not made of money lol.

And I'd rather not buy the topical form because of the extra ingredients in it.

Edited by dz93, 12 June 2015 - 03:41 PM.

[playground]

All methods should be pursued, that way when we get to final figures, we can choose?

 

Hi Ark,

 

could you post any links that you have for NGF snake venom suppliers please ?

Thanks

 

Playground.

[Ark]

Try here

http://www.chn-snake...ushannah/7.html

http://thebestthesis.com/?doc/1647708
I think the cobra extract route, may cost considerably less.

[dz93]

I can't wait to be the coolest kid on the block, snorting snake venom. Lol

[Ark]

All methods should be pursued, that way when we get to final figures, we can choose?

Hi Ark,

could you post any links that you have for NGF snake venom suppliers please ?
Thanks

Playground.

I believe if we keep everything on the Chinese side we will be able to afford 8x as much ngf and with ngf it seems longer is better.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

 

All methods should be pursued, that way when we get to final figures, we can choose?

Hi Ark,

could you post any links that you have for NGF snake venom suppliers please ?
Thanks

Playground.

I believe if we keep everything on the Chinese side we will be able to afford 8x as much ngf and with ngf it seems longer is better.

 

 

"This is Our The king cobra venom producing. Sincere cooperation!" -- Uh... I'm not sure what this page purports to be selling, let alone whether it's NGF or even an extract which some unidentified lab could convert into NGF for us. That said, I do understand the potentially significant savings here.

 

Please note also that raw cobra venom can induce blindness, so it would have to be filtered, not merely sterilized.

 

Does anyone have a snake venom link more closely tied to NGF production?

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 13 June 2015 - 01:45 AM.

[Ark]

All methods should be pursued, that way when we get to final figures, we can choose?

Hi Ark,

could you post any links that you have for NGF snake venom suppliers please ?
Thanks

Playground.

I believe if we keep everything on the Chinese side we will be able to afford 8x as much ngf and with ngf it seems longer is better.

"This is Our The king cobra venom producing. Sincere cooperation!" -- Uh... I'm not sure what this page purports to be selling, let alone whether it's NGF or even an extract which some unidentified lab could convert into NGF for us. That said, I do understand the potentially significant savings here.

Please note also that raw cobra venom can induce blindness, so it would have to be filtered, not merely sterilized.

Does anyone have a snake venom link more closely tied to NGF production?

Couldn't we get a quote from the supplier listed and find a lab that can do the purifying and extraction of ngf?
Welcome foreign friends or business contact us, we supply you the best quality products, please send E-mail to chn_snake_venom@126.com, or direct dial telephone customer service, + 86 15078750770.

[Ark]

Snake Venom/Scorpion Venom/Spider venom
Suppliers from China
About snake venom,scorpion venom and spider venom for sale. please don't hesitate contact me by E mail: snakevenom@126.com Mobile:+86 13116899962
http://snake-venom.net/

[Debonaire_Death]

For anyone wanting to know more about the NGFs in snake venom, here's a paper on the matter. Looks like it's 65% homologous with recombinant human NGF, but may have a more prolonged period of effect than the NGF from mouse salivary glands.

 

 

These data indicate the following order of NGF activity towards recombinant human trkA receptors: recombinant human NGF > mouse NGF > cobra NGF > vipera NGF. The neurotropic efficacy of these NGFs was found to be similar, reaching 80 – 90% of maximal activity obtained with all NGF forms. Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF.

 

[resveratrol_guy]

 

For anyone wanting to know more about the NGFs in snake venom, here's a paper on the matter. Looks like it's 65% homologous with recombinant human NGF, but may have a more prolonged period of effect than the NGF from mouse salivary glands.

 

 

These data indicate the following order of NGF activity towards recombinant human trkA receptors: recombinant human NGF > mouse NGF > cobra NGF > vipera NGF. The neurotropic efficacy of these NGFs was found to be similar, reaching 80 – 90% of maximal activity obtained with all NGF forms. Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF.

 

 

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of injecting a drug which is only 65% homologous with rhNGF. For instance, vitamin C differs from glucose by 1 atom, as does hemoglobin from chlorophyll. But they are radically different substances. It's possible that a useful subset of effects are the same between the snake and human varieties. But what's going on with the rest of the structure? We need to be careful because we know that NGF is involved in some cancers (even though I think it's merely a tool of the cancer, and not a cause):

 

"mNGF has been shown to be involved in promoting the tumor growth via perineural invasion (in pancreatic and oral cancers) [11,12], via an autocrine loop (in breast and prostate cancer) [13], via activating angiogenesis [14] as well as in progression of some other cancer symptoms [15]. On the other hand, mNGF suppresses human prostate tumor growth in nude mice [16] as well as human leukemia K562 cell proliferation in vitro, and administration of TrkA agonist, NGF mimetic gambogic amide, inhibited K562 cell proliferation in nude mice [17]."

 

But that aside, there's the practical problem of getting someone competent to isolate the NGF from the venom. Venom kills people, pure and simple. So if you need to take this stuff for the rest of your life, you need to be satisfied that the chances of an accident during isolation are negligible for the rest of your life. Cobras spit at attackers in an attempt to blind them, independent of the systemic neurotoxins in their venom. We might as well try to extract gold dust from a toxic waste site. I don't see any evidence that this Chinese seller performs extraction, because they're presenting themselves as a venom supplier and nothing more. I have little doubt that they might profess to be competent extractors, which is why I wouldn't ask, if they don't volunteer it on the website. Unfortunately, I have yet to find any extraction businesses on Google. Can anyone find such a company? (And does the cost of extraction negate the cost benefits of using venom?)

 

I'll call the South Koreans again Monday, to see if they have any suggestions with regards to the cosmetics company.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 13 June 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[playground]

 

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of injecting a drug which is only 65% homologous with rhNGF. For instance, vitamin C differs from glucose by 1 atom, as does hemoglobin from chlorophyll. But they are radically different substances. It's possible that a useful subset of effects are the same between the snake and human varieties. But what's going on with the rest of the structure? We need to be careful because we know that NGF is involved in some cancers (even though I think it's merely a tool of the cancer, and not a cause):

 

"mNGF has been shown to be involved in promoting the tumor growth via perineural invasion (in pancreatic and oral cancers) [11,12], via an autocrine loop (in breast and prostate cancer) [13], via activating angiogenesis [14] as well as in progression of some other cancer symptoms [15]. On the other hand, mNGF suppresses human prostate tumor growth in nude mice [16] as well as human leukemia K562 cell proliferation in vitro, and administration of TrkA agonist, NGF mimetic gambogic amide, inhibited K562 cell proliferation in nude mice [17]."

 

 

 

Good post.   I completely agree.

 

I think it's important to consider the details carefully.

 

This really must be rhNGF ... the consequences of getting this detail wrong, ... could be very upsetting.

 

Playground.

 

 

 

[Ark]

I'd say we should use the final product on rats first to test.

[normalizing]

I'd say we should use the final product on rats first to test.

 

completely agree. ark, do this for us!

[Ark]

I'd say we should use the final product on rats first to test.

completely agree. ark, do this for us!

Anything is possible, I'm willing to help out when I can on Longecity.


P.S. normalizing, could you please stop misusing the reputation buttons? Your just following my posts negative repping everything out of context.

[normalizing]

i didnt understand... "your" ?

 

not really no. i assume others also dont like the way you post here. i have voted you down few times in the past because of silly comments. thats it really.

[Ark]

i didnt understand... "your" ?

not really no. i assume others also dont like the way you post here. i have voted you down few times in the past because of silly comments. thats it really.

Seriously?

[Ark]

Anyways back to the subject, any new leads anyone?