613 replies to this topic

[dz93]

http://everythingmus...dy-to-grow-kit/

Grow it yourself. You'll know it'll be free of heavy metals.

Edited by dz93, 21 June 2015 - 10:22 PM.

[playground]

http://everythingmus...dy-to-grow-kit/

Grow it yourself. You'll know it'll be free of heavy metals.

 

That's a good idea... it would make a nice little pet project.

And you'd learn a lot from it.

[playground]

While thinking about this difficult NGF problem, I had another idea that might accomplish the same effect in the end, more cheaply and with much less hassle.

I've known for a while that whole lion's mane mushrooms can be purchased from China for around $20/kg plus shipping. The problem has been the lack of trust. I would assume, for instance, that most of these mushrooms are high in heavy metals or pesticides. But it occurred to me that this might be workable, even if we could not afford to test each individual mushroom. Allow me to explain.

First of all, eating just a few mushrooms per day would be enough to reach the doses used in the Japanese dementia study, so the toxin aspect is largely mitigated by the relatively small consumption volume. But they could be eaten with tumeric or vitamin C in the soup, which would bind some of the heavy metals before they could be absorbed. We might not be able to prevent pesticide absorption, but that might be acceptable if the neuroregenerative effects of the induced NGF outweigh the neurdodegenerative effects of the pestide dose.

I know this isn't a perfect solution, but it might be practical, considering that raw NGF is a thousand bucks per milligram and has all these other problems. Moreover, we might be able to megadose lion's mane up to a higher therapeutic level, as I haven't seen any study which looked at dose dependent response, probably due to the historically high cost of the mushroom. Some degree of liver enzyme elevation has been reported, but it's not clear whether this is due to the mushroom as opposed to processing chemicals, and even if so, how dangerous it actually is; suffice to say, I would be taking blood tests if megadosing.

The bottom line is that we don't know where lion's mane reaches maximum benefit, largely because in capsule form, it's so expensive that megadosing is generally impractical. By consuming whole mushrooms, we can achieve high lifelong doses in a manner which is sustainable for most people on this forum. I might add that because lion's mane cultivation (as opposed to gathering) seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon, there are not likely to be many anecdotes of people eating a bowl of the stuff every day.

So in order to improve the viability of this approach, I spent a long time browsing the Web for trustworthy sources at good prices. In addition to the links previously provided, I found some other vendors of interest:

1. Aloha Medicinals' lion's mane is US grown (in their own grow house, apparently) and much cheaper than Fungi Perfecti. Granted, Fungi Perfecti's pills are mycellium only, whereas Aloha's seem to be a mixture of mycellium and fruiting body, which have very different hericenone concentrations.

2. Shiyan Fulongshan Green Food is a Chinese source whose Alibaba ad is here. Of all the Chinese mass mushroom producers, they seem to be the most upfront about their process. And their front page features an actual outdoor mushroom farm, instead of marketing nonsense. Based on the somewhat unflattering photo with garbage next to the field (what do you expect?), I'm quite sure it's real. Nevertheless, the mushrooms seem to be safely elevated on wood stumps. Their employees dressed up in scrubs for the photos, but aren't wearing basic latex gloves. Then again, the equipment appears to be modern, it's $20/kg, and we can boil the mushrooms for biosafety.

3. John Lee Mushroom has lion's mane for sale here on eBay, around $80/kg including shipping. This company is run by a very publicly Christian Chinese, who at least seems to be serious about doing the right thing. As I understand, he works with local farmers and gatherers to ensure quality. At least, he's being very open about his enterprise and seems to be accept smaller orders. If he could cut his price in half with sufficient volume, he might make an excellent supplier.
 

Thoughts?

 

 

Good work RG,

 

Some nice finds: John Lee and Shiyan Fulongshan.

 

Here's a diagram of a mushroom......

 

 

The picture above, shows the different parts of a mushroom.

The mycelium are basically the roots of the mushroom.

All the stuff above the mycelium is called the 'fruiting body', it includes

the 'stalk' of the mushroom and the 'head' of the mushroom

(labeled 'Reproductive Structure' in the diagram above).

 

Paul Stammets, is an expert on mushrooms, he gives Ted Talks

about mushrooms and fungi, he owns the Fungi Perfecti website.

I've been buying the Fungi Perfecti Lion's Mane for the last few years.

Paul Stammet's Lion's mane is the mycellium.

 

I wonder how Stammets harvests the mycellium. Surely the roots

of the mushroom would be buried deep inside a log (naturally,

these mushrooms grow on trees, presumably dead or rotting trees).

 

I notice on the ingredients label to these (fungi perfecti) capsules it says:

'Other ingredients:  freeze dried myceliated brown rice'

I wonder if he grows Lion's Mane on brown rice because that way,

he can harvest the roots (the mycelium)

 

Why is Stammets selling the mycelium ?

Why is he not selling the fruiting body ?

 

If we buy Lion's Mane from ebay or china,  what we will receive is the fruiting body.

 

If we order the Matrix brand or the Aloha Medicinals brand,  we get both the

fruiting body and the mycelium.

(http://mushroommatri...lions-mane.html)

 

 

So the question is, in what part of the mushroom are the NGF stimulating goodies ?

If anyone has any good links to detailed information on this,  please post them. :-)

 

It would be nice to be properly informed about this prior to making an order.

 

 

Playground.

 

PS.... RG, what dosage were they using in the dementia study you mentioned above ?

Do you have a link to that study ?

 

 

Edited by playground, 22 June 2015 - 09:31 AM.

[normalizing]

While thinking about this difficult NGF problem, I had another idea that might accomplish the same effect in the end, more cheaply and with much less hassle.

I've known for a while that whole lion's mane mushrooms can be purchased from China for around $20/kg plus shipping. The problem has been the lack of trust. I would assume, for instance, that most of these mushrooms are high in heavy metals or pesticides. But it occurred to me that this might be workable, even if we could not afford to test each individual mushroom. Allow me to explain.

First of all, eating just a few mushrooms per day would be enough to reach the doses used in the Japanese dementia study, so the toxin aspect is largely mitigated by the relatively small consumption volume. But they could be eaten with tumeric or vitamin C in the soup, which would bind some of the heavy metals before they could be absorbed. We might not be able to prevent pesticide absorption, but that might be acceptable if the neuroregenerative effects of the induced NGF outweigh the neurdodegenerative effects of the pestide dose.

I know this isn't a perfect solution, but it might be practical, considering that raw NGF is a thousand bucks per milligram and has all these other problems. Moreover, we might be able to megadose lion's mane up to a higher therapeutic level, as I haven't seen any study which looked at dose dependent response, probably due to the historically high cost of the mushroom. Some degree of liver enzyme elevation has been reported, but it's not clear whether this is due to the mushroom as opposed to processing chemicals, and even if so, how dangerous it actually is; suffice to say, I would be taking blood tests if megadosing.

The bottom line is that we don't know where lion's mane reaches maximum benefit, largely because in capsule form, it's so expensive that megadosing is generally impractical. By consuming whole mushrooms, we can achieve high lifelong doses in a manner which is sustainable for most people on this forum. I might add that because lion's mane cultivation (as opposed to gathering) seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon, there are not likely to be many anecdotes of people eating a bowl of the stuff every day.

So in order to improve the viability of this approach, I spent a long time browsing the Web for trustworthy sources at good prices. In addition to the links previously provided, I found some other vendors of interest:

1. Aloha Medicinals' lion's mane is US grown (in their own grow house, apparently) and much cheaper than Fungi Perfecti. Granted, Fungi Perfecti's pills are mycellium only, whereas Aloha's seem to be a mixture of mycellium and fruiting body, which have very different hericenone concentrations.

2. Shiyan Fulongshan Green Food is a Chinese source whose Alibaba ad is here. Of all the Chinese mass mushroom producers, they seem to be the most upfront about their process. And their front page features an actual outdoor mushroom farm, instead of marketing nonsense. Based on the somewhat unflattering photo with garbage next to the field (what do you expect?), I'm quite sure it's real. Nevertheless, the mushrooms seem to be safely elevated on wood stumps. Their employees dressed up in scrubs for the photos, but aren't wearing basic latex gloves. Then again, the equipment appears to be modern, it's $20/kg, and we can boil the mushrooms for biosafety.

3. John Lee Mushroom has lion's mane for sale here on eBay, around $80/kg including shipping. This company is run by a very publicly Christian Chinese, who at least seems to be serious about doing the right thing. As I understand, he works with local farmers and gatherers to ensure quality. At least, he's being very open about his enterprise and seems to be accept smaller orders. If he could cut his price in half with sufficient volume, he might make an excellent supplier.
 

Thoughts?

 

 

dear lord, john lee's website was terrifying, i was freightened and stood still for a minute just gasping trying to comprehend the idea behind it. its like some kid just made a website using geocities from yahoo in 20 mins and offered to sell shit.
 

[playground]

 

3. John Lee Mushroom has lion's mane for sale here on eBay, around $80/kg including shipping. This company is run by a very publicly Christian Chinese, who at least seems to be serious about doing the right thing. As I understand, he works with local farmers and gatherers to ensure quality. At least, he's being very open about his enterprise and seems to be accept smaller orders. If he could cut his price in half with sufficient volume, he might make an excellent supplier.
 

Thoughts?

 

dear lord, john lee's website was terrifying, i was freightened and stood still for a minute just gasping trying to comprehend the idea behind it. its like some kid just made a website using geocities from yahoo in 20 mins and offered to sell shit.
 

 

It reminds me of a lot of websites from the early days of the web.

Before google was born... in the days of lycos and altavista... those days.

 

What i noticed on his (John Lee's) website, was that it says this:

 

Quote:

Christian farmers who collect and process the wild mushrooms in the famous Himalayas & Shangrila mountain region of Yunnan and Tibet

 

 

Why did the word Shangrila jump out at me?

Because it's a mythical place, or rather, there's a famous book 'Lost Horizon'

that features a utopia, where the people never age.

I think there's a film called Shangrila too.

 

See here:  https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Shangri-La

 

Quote:

Shangri-La is a fictional place described in the 1933 novel Lost Horizon by

British author James Hilton. Hilton describes Shangri-La as a mystical, harmonious valley,

gently guided from a lamasery, enclosed in the western end of the Kunlun Mountains.

Shangri-La has become synonymous with any earthly paradise, and particularly a

mythical Himalayan utopia – a permanently happy land, isolated from the outside world.

In the novel Lost Horizon, the people who live at Shangri-La are almost immortal, living

years beyond the normal lifespan and only very slowly aging in appearance.
 

It's quite 'apt' .. that RG found John Lee's website.... and that we're discussing it on longecity.org

 

There's a belief in Asia that the best green tea comes from up in the mountains.

Tibet is about as 'up in the mountains' as it's possible to get.

(Green tea contains a chemical called EGCG, it has neuroprotective and anti-amyloid properties)

I might buy some to see if the 'belief' is correct.

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 22 June 2015 - 10:59 AM.

[playground]

So the question is, in what part of the mushroom are the NGF stimulating goodies ?

If anyone has any good links to detailed information on this,  please post them. :-)

 

It would be nice to be properly informed about this prior to making an order.

 

 

Here is a webpage and a pdf that very conveniently summarise the

significant studies that have been conducted into Lion's mane.

 

http://www.mycoessen...m_cognitive.htm
http://www.sienikaup...-Lions-Mane.pdf

 

The answer to my questions are:

 

Lions mane contains two sets of NGF stimulating 'goodies'

 

Hericenones C-H are found in the fruiting body.

 

Erinacines A-I are found in the mycelium.

 

Hericenones are fat soluable (and may or may not be water soluble)

 

Dosages in human subjects have been 2 grams and 3 grams per day

However,  the animal studies basically fed mice a 'feed' containing 5% Lion's Mane powder.

 

Playground.

 

 

 

[dz93]

Can we buy Hericenones C-H and Erinacines A-I as an isolated compound? Do those alone stimulate NGF production or is it those in combination with other substances inside the mushroom?

[Ok555]

Why not take Lion's Mane Mushroom  in 500 mg caps as a lot of companys sell it on amazon?

[dz93]

Why not take Lion's Mane Mushroom in 500 mg caps as a lot of companys sell it on amazon?

Well, we could do that but I think we should focus on the most effective and potent way to enhance NGF in the brain. Lions mane does it pretty good but after all this work and research it just seems like a waste just to end up taking a supplement that most people here probably already take. Let's dig into lions man. Find out why or how those substances in lions mane cause the bio synthesis of NGF.

I found this,

There is debate as to whether hericenones are active components stimulating biosynthesis of NGF and the recent result have shown that hericenone C, D and E did not increase NGF mRNA expression at 10–100 μg/ml in 1321 N1 cells (Mori et al. 2008). Therefore, erinacines have potential as medicines for degenerative neuronal disorders such as Alzheimer's disease and peripheral nerve regeneration.

http://www.tandfonli...501201003735556

If I understand it correctly, hericenone, at the doses listed above, does not stimulate the production of NGF. So that just leaves erinacines as a candidate for the bio synthesis of NGF. Right? Or have I misunderstood what I've read. That happens often lol

Edit: At the very least it seems like eating the mycelium would be more beneficial for NGF production than the fruit body.

Edited by dz93, 22 June 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[Ark]

In this study vngf has anti tumor capabilities and the mice tolerated it. https://www.google.c...YdZORq6AsgNhoig




Also


I am working on a source.

Characterization of nerve growth factors (NGFs) from snake venoms by use of a novel, quantitative bioassay utilizing pheochromocytoma (PC12) cells overexpressing human trkA receptors.
Katzir I1, Shani J, Goshen G, Sela J, Ninary E, Dogonovski AM, Shabashov D, Inoue S, Ikeda K, Hayashi K, Gorinstein S, Deutsch J, Lazarovici P.
Author information
Abstract
Snake venoms are a very abundant source of nerve growth factors (NGF). NGFs of Elapidae showing 65% sequence homology with mouse or human NGF, while the Viperidae NGF shows N-glycosylation (Asn-21) typical of these mammalian NGFs. Snake NGF-induced neurite outgrowth (neurotropic activity) was measured in the past by using PC12 cell or dorsal root ganglion bioassays. The present study was aimed at comparing, by dose-response experiments, the neurotropic activity of cobra and vipera versus mammalian NGFs, by using a novel bioassay involving PC12 cells genetically engineered to overexpress NGF-trkA receptors of human origin. These cells respond to NGF by differentiation (morphologically expressed as neurite outgrowth) by a process mediated by NGF-trkA receptors. This process was evaluated by two different criteria: (1) elongation of neurites (E), and (2) Percentage of responsive cells (PRC) determined by digital acquisition of data and computer analysis. We found that snake venom NGFs were less potent than mouse NGF, and that cobra NGF was more potent than vipera NGF. These data indicate the following order of NGF activity towards recombinant human trkA receptors: recombinant human NGF>mouse NGF>cobra NGF>vipera NGF. The neurotropic efficacy of these NGFs was found to be similar, reaching 80-90% of maximal activity obtained with all NGF forms. Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF. The results of the present study indicate that cobra and vipera venom NGFs represent natural agonists of human trkA-receptor of a lower potency, but of similar efficacy, compared with mammalian NGFs. These compounds are important pharmacological tools to characterize the trkA receptor structure-function relationship, and to develop novel neurotropic drugs.
PMID: 14529729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on Google+
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LinkOut - more resources
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[dz93]

Can we not order things from Sigma Aldrich?

[normalizing]

how did this become a thread about lion's mane.i took various supplements containing it and it never worked. neither do i know of any actual long term noticably good report.

[playground]

I found this,

There is debate as to whether hericenones are active components stimulating biosynthesis of NGF and the recent result have shown that hericenone C, D and E did not increase NGF mRNA expression at 10–100 μg/ml in 1321 N1 cells (Mori et al. 2008). Therefore, erinacines have potential as medicines for degenerative neuronal disorders such as Alzheimer's disease and peripheral nerve regeneration.

http://www.tandfonli...501201003735556

If I understand it correctly, hericenone, at the doses listed above, does not stimulate the production of NGF. So that just leaves erinacines as a candidate for the bio synthesis of NGF. Right? Or have I misunderstood what I've read. That happens often lol

Edit: At the very least it seems like eating the mycelium would be more beneficial for NGF production than the fruit body.

 

 

Good find dz93,

 

You're right.  It seems that Mori et al 2008 did the acid test, to see if it worked in vivo.

Which is why the Ma et al paper (cited above) then says:

 

 "Therefore, erinacines have potential as medicines for degenerative neuronal disorders..."

 

In other words, they're ruling out hericenones and ruling 'in' erinacines.

 

This is a crucial piece of information.  Knowledge is power (and wealth).

 

The Ma et al paper was published in December  2009. 

So their review expresses the state of the game as it stood 5.5 years ago.

 

It's probably for this reason that Stammets (at Fungi Perfecti) is selling only the mycelium in his product.

And it also explains why his product is so much more expensive.

 

Other (full spectrum) Lion's Mane vendors are selling a highly diluted product.

Fungi Perfecti's offering might actually be the cheapest... in terms of bang for buck (as RG would  say)

 

I wonder if the chinese (or tibetan) vendors are selling a 'mycelium only' version of their product.

If so, it would be nice to find out how much they're charging.

 

good work dz93 :-)

 

Playground. 

 

[playground]

how did this become a thread about lion's mane.i took various supplements containing it and it never worked. neither do i know of any actual long term noticably good report.

 

We've been talking about Lion's Mane because it works to amplify NGF expression.

The suggestion has been made several times that a good strategy would be to

take NGF with Lion's mane.  So this is all part of the same project.

 

It's probable that you've taken only 'fruiting body' or 'full spectrum' lion's mane in the past.

It seems (now) that the best lion's mane is the mycelium lion's mane.

 

There are probably longer term Lion's Mane studies going on right  now in China, Japan, Korea etc.

We have to wait for someone to write them up.... and then translate them into english.

 

Playground

Edited by playground, 23 June 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[playground]

In this study vngf has anti tumor capabilities and the mice tolerated it. https://www.google.c...YdZORq6AsgNhoig




Also


I am working on a source.

Characterization of nerve growth factors (NGFs) from snake venoms by use of a novel, quantitative bioassay utilizing pheochromocytoma (PC12) cells overexpressing human trkA receptors.
Katzir I1, Shani J, Goshen G, Sela J, Ninary E, Dogonovski AM, Shabashov D, Inoue S, Ikeda K, Hayashi K, Gorinstein S, Deutsch J, Lazarovici P.
Author information
Abstract
Snake venoms are a very abundant source of nerve growth factors (NGF). NGFs of Elapidae showing 65% sequence homology with mouse or human NGF, while the Viperidae NGF shows N-glycosylation (Asn-21) typical of these mammalian NGFs. Snake NGF-induced neurite outgrowth (neurotropic activity) was measured in the past by using PC12 cell or dorsal root ganglion bioassays. The present study was aimed at comparing, by dose-response experiments, the neurotropic activity of cobra and vipera versus mammalian NGFs, by using a novel bioassay involving PC12 cells genetically engineered to overexpress NGF-trkA receptors of human origin. These cells respond to NGF by differentiation (morphologically expressed as neurite outgrowth) by a process mediated by NGF-trkA receptors. This process was evaluated by two different criteria: (1) elongation of neurites (E), and (2) Percentage of responsive cells (PRC) determined by digital acquisition of data and computer analysis. We found that snake venom NGFs were less potent than mouse NGF, and that cobra NGF was more potent than vipera NGF. These data indicate the following order of NGF activity towards recombinant human trkA receptors: recombinant human NGF>mouse NGF>cobra NGF>vipera NGF. The neurotropic efficacy of these NGFs was found to be similar, reaching 80-90% of maximal activity obtained with all NGF forms. Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF. The results of the present study indicate that cobra and vipera venom NGFs represent natural agonists of human trkA-receptor of a lower potency, but of similar efficacy, compared with mammalian NGFs. These compounds are important pharmacological tools to characterize the trkA receptor structure-function relationship, and to develop novel neurotropic drugs.
PMID: 14529729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on Google+
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Hi Ark,

 

The line from your post (above) that scares me most is this one:

 

NGFs of Elapidae showing 65% sequence homology with mouse or human NGF

 

Mouse NGF has 90 homology with human NGF.  To be honest, that also scares me.

It's a little surprising that the chinese have added mouse NGF to their national drugs list

for use with human patients  (And they're the only country in the world that have done so)

 

It only takes a tiny difference in molecules to have profoundly distinct biological action.

For example.. look at the similarity between estrogen and testosterone in the diagram below.

Obviously, these two hormones have very different action in human bodies.

 

So the idea that cobra NGF has only 65% similarity to human NGF.... for me at least... is scary.

 

 

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 23 June 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[Major Legend]

Didn't we have this discussion about the potential of increase cancer risk from NGF?  I haven't gone through the whole thread, so apologies if I am repeating useless information.

 

Lions mane works. I am pretty sure of it. At large doses though like about 1 gram and above. I used it with Noopept, they work with each other quite well. I don't use it much anymore since my brain seems to have recovered.

 

NGF application looks likely to increase autistic traits both beneficial and non beneficial, provided the same thing happens with an adult brain as it does to a developing mind. It also seems to have much broader effects than BDNF, so if NGF why not BDNF?

 

Peptides also have a storage problem, they tend to be not very heat stable in liquid formulations. They are also prone to breaking upon vigorous shaking.

 

http://www.abcam.com...de-ab66458.html

 

"Shipped at 4°C. Upon delivery aliquot and store at -20°C or -80°C. Avoid repeated freeze / thaw cycles."

 

A mimetic peptide is likely to just be as fragile as the real thing.

 

[Ark]

In this study vngf has anti tumor capabilities and the mice tolerated it. https://www.google.c...YdZORq6AsgNhoig




Also


I am working on a source.

Characterization of nerve growth factors (NGFs) from snake venoms by use of a novel, quantitative bioassay utilizing pheochromocytoma (PC12) cells overexpressing human trkA receptors.
Katzir I1, Shani J, Goshen G, Sela J, Ninary E, Dogonovski AM, Shabashov D, Inoue S, Ikeda K, Hayashi K, Gorinstein S, Deutsch J, Lazarovici P.
Author information
Abstract
Snake venoms are a very abundant source of nerve growth factors (NGF). NGFs of Elapidae showing 65% sequence homology with mouse or human NGF, while the Viperidae NGF shows N-glycosylation (Asn-21) typical of these mammalian NGFs. Snake NGF-induced neurite outgrowth (neurotropic activity) was measured in the past by using PC12 cell or dorsal root ganglion bioassays. The present study was aimed at comparing, by dose-response experiments, the neurotropic activity of cobra and vipera versus mammalian NGFs, by using a novel bioassay involving PC12 cells genetically engineered to overexpress NGF-trkA receptors of human origin. These cells respond to NGF by differentiation (morphologically expressed as neurite outgrowth) by a process mediated by NGF-trkA receptors. This process was evaluated by two different criteria: (1) elongation of neurites (E), and (2) Percentage of responsive cells (PRC) determined by digital acquisition of data and computer analysis. We found that snake venom NGFs were less potent than mouse NGF, and that cobra NGF was more potent than vipera NGF. These data indicate the following order of NGF activity towards recombinant human trkA receptors: recombinant human NGF>mouse NGF>cobra NGF>vipera NGF. The neurotropic efficacy of these NGFs was found to be similar, reaching 80-90% of maximal activity obtained with all NGF forms. Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF. The results of the present study indicate that cobra and vipera venom NGFs represent natural agonists of human trkA-receptor of a lower potency, but of similar efficacy, compared with mammalian NGFs. These compounds are important pharmacological tools to characterize the trkA receptor structure-function relationship, and to develop novel neurotropic drugs.
PMID: 14529729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on Google+
Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
LinkOut - more resources
PubMed Commons home
PubMed Commons

Hi Ark,

The line from your post (above) that scares me most is this one:

NGFs of Elapidae showing 65% sequence homology with mouse or human NGF

Mouse NGF has 90 homology with human NGF. To be honest, that also scares me.
It's a little surprising that the chinese have added mouse NGF to their national drugs list
for use with human patients (And they're the only country in the world that have done so)

It only takes a tiny difference in molecules to have profoundly distinct biological action.
For example.. look at the similarity between estrogen and testosterone in the diagram below.
Obviously, these two hormones have very different action in human bodies.

So the idea that cobra NGF has only 65% similarity to human NGF.... for me at least... is scary.




Playground.

I'm sure someone has tried it, I will try and find proof.

Attached Files

•  1597253_10206076357083393_7175431143948899383_o.jpg   75.23KB   1 downloads

[Ark]

"Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF."

[playground]

"Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF."

 

link ?

[Major Legend]

reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24521633

 

Serum nerve growth factor levels in autistic children in Turkish population: a preliminary study.

Dinçel N1, Ünalp A, Kutlu A, Öztürk A, Uran N, Ulusoy S.

Author information

 

Abstract

BACKGROUND & OBJECTIVES:

It has been hypothesized that abnormal levels of serum nerve growth factor (NGF) may represent a serological marker for autistic children who may develop cognitive impairment, regression and finally epilepsy. The objective of this preliminary study was to measure serum NGF concentrations of autistic children and compare these levels with those of healthy children.

METHODS:

Consecutive children who were referred to the Paediatric Neurology and Child Psychiatry Policlinics of Dr. Behçet Uz Child Disease and Pediatric Surgery Training and Research Hospital, Turkey between February and September 2008 were included in the study. Serum samples were analyzed for NGF levels using ChemiKine NGF Sandwich ELISA Kit. Comparisons between the study and the control groups were made using student's t test and Chi-square test.

RESULTS:

Forty-nine autistic children and an equal number of healthy children (control group) were included in the study. No significant difference was found between the study and the control groups in terms of children's age, while number of boys was significantly higher (P<0.05) in the study group. Average serum NGF concentrations were 46.94 ± 51.40 and 32.94 ± 12.48 pg/ml in the study and control group, respectively. Serum NGF concentrations were significantly higher (P<0.05) in the study group compared with the control group.

INTERPRETATION & CONCLUSIONS:

Our preliminary findings show that enhanced serum NGF concentration may be used as a potential diagnostic tool in autism, however, further studies including a large number of patients are required to confirm the findings.

 

Just a wild guess...inflammation is likely the cause of autistic spectrum disorders. Inflammation also greatly increases NGF production.

 

Not necessarily a bad thing, since mildly autistic people are likely to also be highly intelligent. 

 

 

In research reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), scientists at the University of California, San Diego, found that autistic children have about 67% more nerve cells in a part of the brain known as the prefrontal cortex than children without autism. The prefrontal cortex is involved in processing social skills, communication, cognitive functions and language — all areas in which autistic children often show abnormal development.

Lead researcher Eric Courchesne studied the brains of seven autistic boys between the ages of 2 and 16 after their death and compared his analysis to the brains of six unaffected boys who died at similar ages. The excess of neurons was a bit of a surprise since in most cases, deficits in social skills — like the ones autistic children typically have — are linked to less, not more, nerve tissue.

 

[playground]

 

You're right.  It seems that Mori et al 2008 did the acid test, to see if it worked in vivo.

Which is why the Ma et al paper (cited above) then says:

 

 "Therefore, erinacines have potential as medicines for degenerative neuronal disorders..."

 

In other words, they're ruling out hericenones and ruling 'in' erinacines.

 

With regard to Lion's Mane this  'in vitro' vs 'in vivo' distinction comes up, in a more recent

review of mushrooms for neurodegenerative diseases (Aug 2014)

 

The following is from a paper entitled:

Therapeutic potential of culinary-medicinal mushrooms for
the management of neurodegenerative diseases: diversity, metabolite, and mechanism

(source: http://www.researchg...tion/265167213)

 

The authors start with the conclusion:

 

However, it needs to be clarified that this in vitro evidence
cannot be assumed to occur in vivo and that the in vitro
activity of polysaccharides cannot be extrapolated to explain
in vivo observations.
 

They then support it by talking about hericenones  (in the fruiting body):

On one hand, hericenones (benzyl alcohol derivatives)
were isolated from the fruiting bodies of H. erinaceus
(Table 2). Hericenones A (20) and B (21) were first reported
in 1990 but no neurite outgrowth activity was reported
(Kawagishi et al., 1990). Hericenones C (22), D (23), E (24),
F (25), G (26), and H (27) exhibited stimulating activity for
the biosynthesis of NGF in vitro (Kawagishi & Ando, 1993;
Kawagishi et al., 1991).
 

They then contrast the 'in vitro' evidence of hericenones with

the  'in vivo' evidence of erinacines (in the mycelium):

On the other hand, diterpenoid derivatives (named erinacines)
were isolated from the mycelium of H. erinaceus.
Erinacines A–I (28–36) significantly induced the synthesis of
NGF in vitro (Kawagishi et al., 1994,
1996a,b; Lee et al., 2000) and in vivo (Shimbo et al., 2005).

 

This seems to support the earlier evidence from the Ma et al 2009 paper.

 

So... the part of the Lion's Mane mushroom that has the NGF stimulating

goodies ... is the mycelium.

 

On that basis, I suggest we seek competing quotes for Lion's Mane

mycelium (not fruiting body and not 'full spectrum').

 

Playground.

 

Edited by playground, 23 June 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[ceridwen]

I just ordered a Noopept nasal spray from Ceretropic. I will report back on any positive changes

[Ark]

"Interestingly, cobra (but not vipera) NGF demonstrated prolonged neurotropic activity compared with mouse NGF."

link ?

It's from the study above.

[playground]

 

reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24521633

 

Serum nerve growth factor levels in autistic children in Turkish population: a preliminary study.

Dinçel N1, Ünalp A, Kutlu A, Öztürk A, Uran N, Ulusoy S.

Author information

 

Abstract

BACKGROUND & OBJECTIVES:

It has been hypothesized that abnormal levels of serum nerve growth factor (NGF) may represent a serological marker for autistic children who may develop cognitive impairment, regression and finally epilepsy. The objective of this preliminary study was to measure serum NGF concentrations of autistic children and compare these levels with those of healthy children.

METHODS:

Consecutive children who were referred to the Paediatric Neurology and Child Psychiatry Policlinics of Dr. Behçet Uz Child Disease and Pediatric Surgery Training and Research Hospital, Turkey between February and September 2008 were included in the study. Serum samples were analyzed for NGF levels using ChemiKine NGF Sandwich ELISA Kit. Comparisons between the study and the control groups were made using student's t test and Chi-square test.

RESULTS:

Forty-nine autistic children and an equal number of healthy children (control group) were included in the study. No significant difference was found between the study and the control groups in terms of children's age, while number of boys was significantly higher (P<0.05) in the study group. Average serum NGF concentrations were 46.94 ± 51.40 and 32.94 ± 12.48 pg/ml in the study and control group, respectively. Serum NGF concentrations were significantly higher (P<0.05) in the study group compared with the control group.

INTERPRETATION & CONCLUSIONS:

Our preliminary findings show that enhanced serum NGF concentration may be used as a potential diagnostic tool in autism, however, further studies including a large number of patients are required to confirm the findings.

 

Just a wild guess...inflammation is likely the cause of autistic spectrum disorders. Inflammation also greatly increases NGF production.

 

Not necessarily a bad thing, since mildly autistic people are likely to also be highly intelligent. 

 

 

In research reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), scientists at the University of California, San Diego, found that autistic children have about 67% more nerve cells in a part of the brain known as the prefrontal cortex than children without autism. The prefrontal cortex is involved in processing social skills, communication, cognitive functions and language — all areas in which autistic children often show abnormal development.

Lead researcher Eric Courchesne studied the brains of seven autistic boys between the ages of 2 and 16 after their death and compared his analysis to the brains of six unaffected boys who died at similar ages. The excess of neurons was a bit of a surprise since in most cases, deficits in social skills — like the ones autistic children typically have — are linked to less, not more, nerve tissue.

 

 

 

Hi Major Legend,

 

Interesting post.

 

Yes... you could be right about the inflammation and NGF connection.

I know that kids with Asperger's and ADHD often have allergies to environmental or dietary irritants

that cause an immune attack on neural tissue... this gives rise to their learning difficulties...

(and probably elevated NGF)

 

It's interesting that, for example, elderly people with arthritis are protected from Alzheimer's

because the arthritis generates NGF... which then goes on to rescue neural tissue from Alzheimer's.

 

To suggest that NGF causes autism ... is a little like suggesting that ambulances cause accidents.

 

However, It is interesting to reflect, that an abundance of NGF might super-charge certain abilities or capabilities.

There are some fascinating examples of autistic people with amazing musical or mathematical abilities.

 

Playground.

 

[Flex]

 

 

im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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182 negative rep is probably a record, you should feel proud it's probably the only record outside of jail, you'll ever set.


Only the method I mentioned before.

 

 

 

yeh at 638 posts, now going for 39, having -12 reputation is so amazingly bad. i have been a long time member here, posted a lot, contributed a lot and at 638 posts its likely few trolls would disagree and negatively vote me down duh.  only person i know who did vote me down with psychotic obsession was last year this asshole following me around each thread downvotting compulsively until he took a break it seems or got banned whatever.

and the next one is you! nobody else would have done it, but im pretty sure 2 people were enough to follow me around several threads downvoting to bring it to 12.
 

 

edit: dont wanna be a snitch and removed that asshole's nick he is very likely gone anyway good ridance!

 

 

I dont know why the people "hate" You. People do actually sometimes hate others just too easy. I define ashole quite different.

The 638 posts werent posted out of selfishness & etc. Critisizing something can warn others to be more sceptic, so its for me everything but bad per se.

 

I found You Normalizing sometimes rude but not bad like e.g. suggesting somebody something harmful on purpose.

 

Just my 2 cents

Edited by Flex, 24 June 2015 - 12:01 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Didn't we have this discussion about the potential of increase cancer risk from NGF?  I haven't gone through the whole thread, so apologies if I am repeating useless information.

 

Lions mane works. I am pretty sure of it. At large doses though like about 1 gram and above. I used it with Noopept, they work with each other quite well. I don't use it much anymore since my brain seems to have recovered.

 

NGF application looks likely to increase autistic traits both beneficial and non beneficial, provided the same thing happens with an adult brain as it does to a developing mind. It also seems to have much broader effects than BDNF, so if NGF why not BDNF?

 

Peptides also have a storage problem, they tend to be not very heat stable in liquid formulations. They are also prone to breaking upon vigorous shaking.

 

http://www.abcam.com...de-ab66458.html

 

"Shipped at 4°C. Upon delivery aliquot and store at -20°C or -80°C. Avoid repeated freeze / thaw cycles."

 

A mimetic peptide is likely to just be as fragile as the real thing.

 

"brain seems to have recovered"? Can you please provide a summary of what your problem was and how you concluded that you recovered from it using lion's mane and noopept?

 

And yes, I think lion's mane works, but only if we keep in mind what Playground mentioned, which is that all parts of the mushroom are not created equal with respect to NGF upregulation. Personally, I would take full spectrum because it has some anticacner and antiulcer benefits as well, which might guard against undesired effects of enhanced NGF secretion in the gut (where we don't want it). The lion's mane threads here on Longecity are full this discussion of mycellium vs. fruiting body, and their differing mental effects. BTW mycellium isn't always easy to obtain, particularly if the mushrooms are grown on wooden stumps as opposed to plastic "grow bags". I think Stamets and Aloha are both using the latter. Although only Aloha offers bulk powder on request.

 

Yeah, I discussed the wrole thermal instability issue a few pages ago. My tentative conclusion is that it only applies if we demand 98% purity for a long period of time. I'm assuming that I'll lose half of the NGF by keeping it in the fridge in solution for a month while it's being nasally insufflated. But that's yet another reason to look for cheaper alternatives like lion's mane.

 

And I agree with Playground that while this isn't a lion's mane thread, it is about raising NGF in the brain, by whatever crazy means necessary, for example, your combination with noopept.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 24 June 2015 - 02:24 AM.

[playground]

 

The lion's mane threads here on Longecity are full this discussion of mycellium vs. fruiting body, and their differing mental effects. BTW mycellium isn't always easy to obtain, particularly if the mushrooms are grown on wooden stumps as opposed to plastic "grow bags". I think Stamets and Aloha are both using the latter. Although only Aloha offers bulk powder on request.

 

 

It's worth looking at this source of Lion's Mane.

http://mushroommatri...s-mane-269.html

 

Reading the description they say:

 

Ingredients: Certified 100% Organic Lion's Mane Mushroom (Hericium erinaceus) mycelial biomass powder cultured on organic oats
 

They are offering 1/2 kilo for $90.

If that _really_ is purely mycelium Lion's Mane, it's the best deal i've come across (so far)

 

Question:  What do they do with the fruiting body ? 

(The fruiting body makes up approx 80% of the mushroom).

My guess is that they sell it.... with the rest of the Lion's Mane... and the description (as cited above) is misleading.

 

Another down side to this supplier is the fact that they're growing this stuff on oats.

This is bad for those people that happen to be sensitive to gluten. 

Although there's technically no gluten in oats, there _is_ something very similar to it and many gluten sensitive

individuals will react to oats.

(note: Paul Stammets grows his lion's mane on brown rice)

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 24 June 2015 - 04:58 AM.

[normalizing]

 

how did this become a thread about lion's mane.i took various supplements containing it and it never worked. neither do i know of any actual long term noticably good report.

 

We've been talking about Lion's Mane because it works to amplify NGF expression.

The suggestion has been made several times that a good strategy would be to

take NGF with Lion's mane.  So this is all part of the same project.

 

It's probable that you've taken only 'fruiting body' or 'full spectrum' lion's mane in the past.

It seems (now) that the best lion's mane is the mycelium lion's mane.

 

There are probably longer term Lion's Mane studies going on right  now in China, Japan, Korea etc.

We have to wait for someone to write them up.... and then translate them into english.

 

Playground

 

 

 

i did the fungi perfecti which is the mycelium. i trialed bottles in different time periods. first few times i noticed anxiety which wasnt good. tho, mild, felt a bit like nicotine. but then i tried at least 3 bottles more in later times, ZERO. i was using them mainly for concentration since i was in shit mode from MDMA abuse.

 

i read actual lions mane in Asia is completely different from the one in US, so perhaps maybe they are more potent and actually work compared to american?? for example, some species of lion's mane have different structures and color too!

 

also, doesnt it matter that lion mane naturally grows on (living) wood? im sure growing it on anything else will absolutely effect its quality!

 

Edited by normalizing, 24 June 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[playground]

 

also, doesnt it matter that lion mane naturally grows on (living) wood? im sure growing it on anything else will absolutely effect its quality!
 

 

I was thinking that too.

Lion's Mane is normally found growing out of hard wood trees (oaks and walnut etc)

 

Paul Stammets appears to be growing his on brown rice.

Mushroom Matrix are growing theirs on organic oats.

 

I would have imagined that yes, the growing medium would affect the final product.

(it does with other plants)

 

However, the part of the mushroom we're interested in is the mycelium (the roots)

which.... would be difficult to dig out of a rotting log.

 

I guess we have no option but to accept 'artificially' farmed Lion's Mane.

I simply wouldn't want to eat the mycelium if it had been grown in a rotting tree.

 

Playground.

[Major Legend]

 

Didn't we have this discussion about the potential of increase cancer risk from NGF?  I haven't gone through the whole thread, so apologies if I am repeating useless information.

 

Lions mane works. I am pretty sure of it. At large doses though like about 1 gram and above. I used it with Noopept, they work with each other quite well. I don't use it much anymore since my brain seems to have recovered.

 

NGF application looks likely to increase autistic traits both beneficial and non beneficial, provided the same thing happens with an adult brain as it does to a developing mind. It also seems to have much broader effects than BDNF, so if NGF why not BDNF?

 

Peptides also have a storage problem, they tend to be not very heat stable in liquid formulations. They are also prone to breaking upon vigorous shaking.

 

http://www.abcam.com...de-ab66458.html

 

"Shipped at 4°C. Upon delivery aliquot and store at -20°C or -80°C. Avoid repeated freeze / thaw cycles."

 

A mimetic peptide is likely to just be as fragile as the real thing.

 

"brain seems to have recovered"? Can you please provide a summary of what your problem was and how you concluded that you recovered from it using lion's mane and noopept?

 

And yes, I think lion's mane works, but only if we keep in mind what Playground mentioned, which is that all parts of the mushroom are not created equal with respect to NGF upregulation. Personally, I would take full spectrum because it has some anticacner and antiulcer benefits as well, which might guard against undesired effects of enhanced NGF secretion in the gut (where we don't want it). The lion's mane threads here on Longecity are full this discussion of mycellium vs. fruiting body, and their differing mental effects. BTW mycellium isn't always easy to obtain, particularly if the mushrooms are grown on wooden stumps as opposed to plastic "grow bags". I think Stamets and Aloha are both using the latter. Although only Aloha offers bulk powder on request.

 

Yeah, I discussed the wrole thermal instability issue a few pages ago. My tentative conclusion is that it only applies if we demand 98% purity for a long period of time. I'm assuming that I'll lose half of the NGF by keeping it in the fridge in solution for a month while it's being nasally insufflated. But that's yet another reason to look for cheaper alternatives like lion's mane.

 

And I agree with Playground that while this isn't a lion's mane thread, it is about raising NGF in the brain, by whatever crazy means necessary, for example, your combination with noopept.

 

 

Oh its well documented on these forums. I had an incident of heavy metal poisoning from China which left me in a a hospital for over a week and suffered cognitive impairment since then. Noopept and Lions Manes gave me pretty instant relief. I don't remember Lions Mane to be cheap though...it was rather expensive in large doses which is one of the reasons I only use Noopept now.

 

Edit: I remember reading somewhere where its effective at 3grams, I find it effective from 1 gram on. I don't remember the brand it was water extracted, it was definetely the real thing. each capsule came in 300mg and I would do 3 capsules which would be 900mg about a gram.

 

I think it was more effective when the cognitive impairment is obvious, whether it would be of benefit to anyone operating at optimal neurological ability - I would be more unsure about that one.

Edited by Major Legend, 24 June 2015 - 10:21 AM.