612 replies to this topic

[resveratrol_guy]

 

Uh oh. It looks like NGF is thermally unstable. The Isreali company says here that it can only survive 1 week at 4C (whereas most fridges are around 8C) after reconstituting it with water. Freezing is only certified to work for a few weeks, and only at -70C! I looked at some other vendors and found similar specifications.

 

So this means that we need to keep it in powder form until use.

 

 

I thought there was a nasal spray version of NGF.

how are those people keeping NGF stable ?

Presumably it's a liquid in the container used to spray it up your nose.

 

(perhaps this is a clue that the nasal applicator has a very short  'use-by-date')

Or ... have they solved the problem of the fragility of NGF ?

 

How much are microgram (not milligram) scales ?

I did a quick search online and the numbers i saw were all in the thousands of dollars.

Surely there are cheaper ones out there.

 

Obviously, i'm thinking that if we had scales capable of dividing up crystals into

N microgram quantities, then each N microgram quantity could be very carefully

placed in (dozens of) tiny ampules.  This would solve the  problem of the heat

sensitivity of NGF. 

 

Maybe we need someone to act as a broker that has access to analytical lab scales.

errrmmm..... But it's delicate work... and there might be an awful lot of tiny ampules.

 

Playground.

 

 

I don't think we're helping ourselves if invent a protocol which is applicable only to billionaires. And moreover, this has to be practical for everyone, aside from the economic issues. We have to accept that most researchers in NGF are backed by massive institutional funding. So they probably have individually wrapped 5 ug units or whatever. Most of us can't afford that. So the cheap way to do this is to buy perhaps twice as much as we think we need, in order to account for degradation. Then drop the powder into a bottle of saline nasal spray, and start shooting it every day, and just hope that it doesn't degrade too fast. (I suspect that the specifications are vastly overconservative, because they're guaranteeing 98% purity after accounting for decay.) This is what I mean by "spray and pray".
 

[resveratrol_guy]

This NGF thermal stability issue.... is quite a problem.

 

I've been doing some research into microgram scales.

I can find no evidence of 'cheap' ones. 

Perhaps others might have better luck than me.

 

I watched youtube videos of electronics techies building their

own microgram scales..... and weighing eye lashes.

A single grain of sugar, one grain, weighs approximately 75mcg.

Clearly, you'd need a very steady hand, and lab microscope, to divide

a grain of sugar into smaller parts... And there's no way you'd be able

to divide it accurately into, say, 1mcg amounts.

 

The solution to this problem that others have come up with

is to 'print' the chemical onto a piece of paper.

 

LSD dosages are also in the microgram range and are 

normally printed onto tiny pieces of paper,

it's either in the ink, or under the ink... or soaked into the paper.

Of-course, this solution only works for oral delivery of NGF.

 

I don't see how NGF could degrade if it was frozen solid

in ice.  However,  i can imagine that freezing might damage it

and thawing might damage it. Of-course, we don't know what

% losses might arise from freezing and thawing just once.

 

Playground.

 

Refreezing is a no-no according to that specification I posted. I intend to mix the NGF with the saline, then use it. I would keep the eye drops in a dark, cold place (ideally, at the bottom of the fridge).

 

Provided that the degradation products are nontoxic, then your proposal of "bending the brain game curve" still works. We just end up buying more NGF than actually gets into our bodies, on account of degradation.

 

Trying to print NGF or manipulate microscopic crystals is impractical without some very expensive equipment.

 

[resveratrol_guy]

South Koreans replied:

 

First of all, thank you for your interest on our product, NGF.

As I expalined to you, all our products are for just cosmetics manufacturing.

Can I know your actual application of the NGF and amount to need ?

If your application is under our acception, we will try to find a way to sell our NGF to you.

The reason why we limit the application of our NGF is that our product is not enough good for other applications such as injection, research, diagnosis, academic use, drug, food, etc.

Because there are ~ 8% impurities originated from bacteria, that kinds of applications can cause unexpected side effects.

Please consider this issue and understand our policy.

Thank you and best regards
 

Personally, I don't really care that these bacterial components are left in the finished product, because they're probably inert and sterile. (But what do I know?) Having said that, to me, I'd rather pay $300 for 250 ug of super high quality NGF, and hope to end up with half that much after accounting for degradation.

 

What do you all think?

 

[ceridwen]

I feel uncomfortable about there being bacteria in something that we are going to put in our brains. We don't know what they are and we don't know what they'll do. However if this is the only way...

[resveratrol_guy]

I feel uncomfortable about there being bacteria in something that we are going to put in our brains. We don't know what they are and we don't know what they'll do. However if this is the only way...

 

I believe that the 92% pure NGF is sterile. (I can confirm this.) The issue is simply that there are random pieces of dead bacteria in the mix.

 

But it's certainly not the only way. Plenty of peptide companies have high grade NGF for around $800/mg.

[dz93]

I wonder if we could find a place to make CERE110? Then we'd never have to worry about degradation because we'd be producing our own extra NGF. I can dream right? Haha

[playground]

 

I feel uncomfortable about there being bacteria in something that we are going to put in our brains. We don't know what they are and we don't know what they'll do. However if this is the only way...

 

I believe that the 92% pure NGF is sterile. (I can confirm this.) The issue is simply that there are random pieces of dead bacteria in the mix.

 

But it's certainly not the only way. Plenty of peptide companies have high grade NGF for around $800/mg.

 

 

yes... Alomone is charging 184 euros for 1/4 mg.  So that's 736 euros per mg.

Add in shipping and conversion to US dollars... approx 800 dollars.

 

I had an idea earlier.... my idea was ..... India.

The other big Asian economic super power.  

But in India...  they speak english.  

They're good at making drugs, and they make them very cheaply.

We might be able to find a source in India.

If we can, it's likely that they'll be cheaper than our current Isreali source.

 

Just a thought.

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 18 June 2015 - 04:57 AM.

[plumper76]

Hi will there be a separate thread for those wishing to go on the group buy or should I just wait on this one?
Thanks!
Hi will there be a separate thread for those wishing to go on the group buy or should I just wait on this one?
Thanks!

[normalizing]

well, obviously we are not going to inject the NGF are we? if there are bacteria residues, i doubt it will be much more than we already get in our bodies from daily exposure to all types of environments, supplements, foods and drinks and whatever else we come in contact with. im sure injecting it directly into the brain might be risky, but surely we wont be doing that!

[resveratrol_guy]

 

 

I feel uncomfortable about there being bacteria in something that we are going to put in our brains. We don't know what they are and we don't know what they'll do. However if this is the only way...

 

I believe that the 92% pure NGF is sterile. (I can confirm this.) The issue is simply that there are random pieces of dead bacteria in the mix.

 

But it's certainly not the only way. Plenty of peptide companies have high grade NGF for around $800/mg.

 

 

yes... Alomone is charging 184 euros for 1/4 mg.  So that's 736 euros per mg.

Add in shipping and conversion to US dollars... approx 800 dollars.

 

I had an idea earlier.... my idea was ..... India.

The other big Asian economic super power.  

But in India...  they speak english.  

They're good at making drugs, and they make them very cheaply.

We might be able to find a source in India.

If we can, it's likely that they'll be cheaper than our current Isreali source.

 

Just a thought.

 

Playground.

 

 

Yeah I already thought of that, and didn't find anything cheaper in India. I don't think we're going to get much cheaper until technological advances of economy of scale really kick in, but that will take years. I also found one other source that was $100 more per mg than Alomone. So if you look at the distribution of prices we've found, it's pretty clear that we're hitting the bottom. Anything way cheaper is likely to be seriously inferior, for example, the stuff from South Korea. If we can't tolerate lower quality product to that extent, then I think the search is basically over. Otherwise we could go on forever trying to save a few dollars, only to let ourselves continue to age. And obviously if some great deal comes up later, we can take it on the next round.

 

Personally, I find Alomone's page to be a bit dubious. They say "100% peptide" on one page, then ">98%" purity on another. Makes me wonder what quality controls they actually have in place. And their address is a PO box in an industrial complex. I suspect the NGF is real, because fake NGF would be easily discovered. But what are the contaminants? No idea. And I can't visit them easily.

 

OTOH, there are several US suppliers about twice as expensive, which could easily be sued if they produced product which violated their own specification. They have too much to lose for bad behavior, and we know where to find them. I will probably use one of them, unless this is actually successful and I need to save money over a lifetime, in which case repeat business with Alomone might be worth the risk.

 

So in reality no one actually needs to wait for a group buy, unless they want to maximize savings by combining purchasing power. It's not like a dihexa situation, in which we need to wait on someone to synthesize it for us.

 

Personally, I'm just waiting until my Longvida experiment is done in a few weeks. But no one should be waiting for me.

[resveratrol_guy]

Well, I have some good news and some bad news. I contacted some US vendors, who are undoubtly producing good NGF, but could not find any willing to sell to me directly. Nor would they sell to a company, unless it's well-established as a biotech company or research institution. You may have more luck in your own country, if it's less regulated, and it's not illegal to try to get healthy! However, I suspect that most of us are either in the US or the EU, so I think this regulatory burden on these companies is going to eliminate the possilibity of doing business with them. It would seem that only Alomone, or some other less regulated producer, would be willing to deal.  No doubt, these companies fear lawsuits if anyone were to get sick taking their product. (I even asked one of them if I could sign a waiver indemnifying them against such liabilities, but they said that wasn't an option.) So the bad news is that sourcing choices are much more limited than I realized. But the good news is that the search just became a lot simpler :(

 

[playground]

One of the details about our quest so far,  was that we didn't recieve

20 or 30 quotes from Alibaba.  I received 1, and that was for the wrong item.

I always felt, in the back of my mind, that there was something wrong with

that.  There must be dozens of little companies in Asia

(India, China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc) that create or harvest NGF

(or that resell it).

 

The Korean company told us explicitly. 

They said they can't sell it retail, we've got to be in the industry.

 

Let's be clear, they're not protecting the public from dangerous chemicals.

They don't give a flying ...err.... fig.... about human suffering. 

eg1.  Cancer medications & Chemotherapy.

eg2. The suppression of herbal cures.

They only care about monopoly profits.

And they're liars.

 

What this might mean.... is that..... if we find a source,

We might have to keep the details of that source secret. 

We might _not_ be able to publically identify the source,

since to do so, might mean that some regulator

or government official goes and 'speaks' to them.

Or maybe imposes a fine on them.

 

We need to think ahead.  Probably, if any of the original

group buy members try out NGF and feel that it is having a positive

benefit, they're likely to want to keep using it for months or even years

into the future (a la Rita Levi-Montalchini).  If we expose the source

we might be cutting off our own future supply.

 

Playground.
 

Edited by playground, 18 June 2015 - 05:24 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

One of the details about our quest so far,  was that we didn't recieve

20 or 30 quotes from Alibaba.  I received 1, and that was for the wrong item.

I always felt, in the back of my mind, that there was something wrong with

that.  There must be dozens of little companies in Asia

(India, China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc) that create or harvest NGF

(or that resell it).

 

The Korean company told us explicitly. 

They said they can't sell it retail, we've got to be in the industry.

 

Let's be clear, they're not protecting the public from dangerous chemicals.

They don't give a flying ...err.... fig.... about human suffering. 

eg1.  Cancer medications & Chemotherapy.

eg2. The suppression of herbal cures.

They only care about monopoly profits.

And they're liars.

 

What this might mean.... is that..... if we find a source,

We might have to keep the details of that source secret. 

We might _not_ be able to publically identify the source,

since to do so, might mean that some regulator

or government official goes and 'speaks' to them.

Or maybe imposes a fine on them.

 

We need to think ahead.  Probably, if any of the original

group buy members try out NGF and feel that it is having a positive

benefit, they're likely to want to keep using it for months or even years

into the future (a la Rita Levi-Montalchini).  If we expose the source

we might be cutting off our own future supply.

 

Playground.
 

 

Sadly, I have no good answer to this. Privacy is already long dead, so any dealings you do with a company are going to be public knowledge through some channel or another. So the only chance you have is to try as many possibilities as possible, starting with the cheapest one that seems to fit the requirements. But at the end of the day, I'm fully aware that we might have to fly to a banana republic every so often, in order to procure supply and ingest the product before returning home. But based on what I've seen, and consistent with Rita's experience, it seems like NGF boosting is something that must be done at least monthly in order to stave off dementia indefinitely. At that point, frankly, lion's mane looks a lot cheaper because at least it can be sold in the open without fear of lawsuits and bureaucracy.

 

But I don't want to jump the gun. If we can get good supply from one of these little unknown biotechs that you alluded to, then we might be set for a long time. Having said that, while your argument for their pervasive existence is logical, Google seems unaware of them. Given that Google is smarter than any phone book on the planet, I'm not optimistic.

 

If I weren't stuck with Longvida for the moment, I would be ordering NGF now from whatever company seemed able to deliver it. Pricing optimization is a long term vendure. We don't have to save the last dollar possible, in order to start getting the benefits. By default, all of us are getting stupider by the day. Now that's expensive.

 

 

[resveratrol_guy]

By the way, anyone interested in NGF should learn about Nilvadipine. It might have amyloid clearance effects similar or superior to Longvida. I created a thread for it here.

[Ark]

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

[ceridwen]

Hi Ark was it you who mentioned red pine needles oil? If so am I right but is there a conection between it and NGF is it a precursor of NGF?

[resveratrol_guy]

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

 

I'm not against this, if you can find a trustworthy vendor. I actually saw snake venom NGF for sale on a name-brand biotech supply website today, but I ignored it because the price was very similar to rhNGF from US suppliers.
 

[playground]

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

 

Hi  Ark,

 

Can you find a source of NGF from cobra venom ?

 

Playground.

[normalizing]

im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

[playground]

I have two solutions to the NGF dosage problem.

 

What exactly is the problem ?

 => NGF is thermally unstable and can only be stored for 4 days when reconstituted in water.

 => NGF is most stable stored as a powder.

 => For perspective on the scale of dosages, note that, a grain of sugar weighs approximately 75 micrograms

 => NGF is active at tiny volumes: 4% of a microgram (according to McMichael)

 

The dosage problem is how to divide NGF up into sub-microgram quantities

without it disintegrating in 4 days.

 

Solution #1:

 

Step 1:

You figure out how many millilitres of distilled water

are required to evenly moisten a piece of paper measuring 100mm x 100mm

This result is X.

 

Step 2:

Let's imagine you have a sample containing 100mcg of powdered NGF.

Dissolve the NGF in X ml of distilled water.

Pour the X ml of distilled water over a piece of blotting paper measuring

10cm X 10cm (ie. 100 millimeters by 100 millimeters)

Allow the distilled water to dry.  The NGF will solidify on the blotting paper.

Each square millimeter of paper contains 1% of a microgram of NGF.

 

In this scenario, you only reconstitute the NGF for a few minutes

and then return it to it's dehydrated state.

 

Note: Rather than blotting paper, you might instead use rice paper

or chitosan paper..... or anything else that is 'paper-like' and that might be sterile.

 

Solution #2:

 

A variation of the above method might be to dissolve 10mcg of NGF in (say) 10ml.

You could  then pipette small quantities, 10th of a ml, into each of 100

tiny sample aliquots.  Allow to dry and voila, each aliquot contains 0.1 mcg of NGF.

This solution requires a special pipette and lots of tiny aliquots.

 

Note: There maybe some loss of NGF during the dehydration step.

 

Playground.

 

Edited by playground, 19 June 2015 - 09:46 PM.

[Ark]

im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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182 negative rep is probably a record, you should feel proud it's probably the only record outside of jail, you'll ever set.

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

Hi Ark,

Can you find a source of NGF from cobra venom ?

Playground.

Only the method I mentioned before.

[resveratrol_guy]

Solution #1:

 

Step 1:

You figure out how many millilitres of distilled water

are required to evenly moisten a piece of paper measuring 100mm x 100mm

This result is X.

 

This is a great idea, if it could be made to work. I would be a bit nervous that different parts of the paper varied greatly in NGF content. There would be no way to check this visually.

 

So either we gamble that dissolution will be sufficiently even, or we gamble that premature reconstitution will cause the loss of some unknown fraction of NGF. At least, in your case, we don't need to worry about "rotten" NGF biproducts floating around. I would be surprised if such products were toxic, but we don't know.

 

Either way, it's good to have another approach. Perhaps a square of HEPA paper would do the trick.
 

[normalizing]

 

im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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182 negative rep is probably a record, you should feel proud it's probably the only record outside of jail, you'll ever set.

 

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

Hi Ark,

Can you find a source of NGF from cobra venom ?

Playground.

Only the method I mentioned before.

 

 

 

yeh at 638 posts, now going for 39, having -12 reputation is so amazingly bad. i have been a long time member here, posted a lot, contributed a lot and at 638 posts its likely few trolls would disagree and negatively vote me down duh.  only person i know who did vote me down with psychotic obsession was last year this asshole following me around each thread downvotting compulsively until he took a break it seems or got banned whatever.

and the next one is you! nobody else would have done it, but im pretty sure 2 people were enough to follow me around several threads downvoting to bring it to 12.
 

 

edit: dont wanna be a snitch and removed that asshole's nick he is very likely gone anyway good ridance!

Edited by normalizing, 20 June 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[Ark]

im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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182 negative rep is probably a record, you should feel proud it's probably the only record outside of jail, you'll ever set.

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

Hi Ark,

Can you find a source of NGF from cobra venom ?

Playground.

Only the method I mentioned before.

yeh at 638 posts, now going for 39, having -12 reputation is so amazingly bad. i have been a long time member here, posted a lot, contributed a lot and at 638 posts its likely few trolls would disagree and negatively vote me down duh. only person i know who did vote me down with psychotic obsession was last year this asshole following me around each thread downvotting compulsively until he took a break it seems or got banned whatever.
and the next one is you! nobody else would have done it, but im pretty sure 2 people were enough to follow me around several threads downvoting to bring it to 12.


edit: dont wanna be a snitch and removed that asshole's nick he is very likely gone anyway good ridance!

Bullshit

[playground]

 

Solution #1:

 

Step 1:

You figure out how many millilitres of distilled water

are required to evenly moisten a piece of paper measuring 100mm x 100mm

This result is X.

 

This is a great idea, if it could be made to work. I would be a bit nervous that different parts of the paper varied greatly in NGF content. There would be no way to check this visually.

 

So either we gamble that dissolution will be sufficiently even, or we gamble that premature reconstitution will cause the loss of some unknown fraction of NGF. At least, in your case, we don't need to worry about "rotten" NGF biproducts floating around. I would be surprised if such products were toxic, but we don't know.

 

Either way, it's good to have another approach. Perhaps a square of HEPA paper would do the trick.
 

 

 

Thanks, i'm glad you like the idea.

 

I've been considering two ideas for the paper.

 

1.  Rice paper (easily bought off ebay) 

     It's edible and comes in white and beige varieties.

     Note: rice paper dissolves in water.

 

2.  Chitosan paper (no idea where to get this).

     Chitosan is edible.  You can buy chitosan supplements, supposedly they block fat absorption.

     Chitosan is naturally antibacterial and antifungal, so the chances that anything will start growing on it are small.

     Chitosan is essentially insoluble in water - though it is soluble in dilute (weak) acids.  (According to the wikipedia page)

    

Being insoluble in water is a good thing, because, if you wanted to extract the NGF

from the paper, you could simply add water to reconstitute the NGF and maybe draw

off the water with a syringe and then spray it up your nose or drop it into your eye.

If you did this with rice paper, you'd end up with rice paper in your eye/up your nose. 

The rice paper may (or may not) be an irritant to your eyes or nasal passages.

 

So at the moment i prefer the idea of chitosan paper. 

But... i don't know where to get it from.

And... crucially..... i'm presuming it absorbs water.... it might not.

I'd like to buy some chitosan paper and play with it.

 

If anyone knows about this stuff... please let us know.

 

Playground.

 

 

[dz93]

im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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182 negative rep is probably a record, you should feel proud it's probably the only record outside of jail, you'll ever set.

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

Hi Ark,

Can you find a source of NGF from cobra venom ?

Playground.

Only the method I mentioned before.

yeh at 638 posts, now going for 39, having -12 reputation is so amazingly bad. i have been a long time member here, posted a lot, contributed a lot and at 638 posts its likely few trolls would disagree and negatively vote me down duh. only person i know who did vote me down with psychotic obsession was last year this asshole following me around each thread downvotting compulsively until he took a break it seems or got banned whatever.
and the next one is you! nobody else would have done it, but im pretty sure 2 people were enough to follow me around several threads downvoting to bring it to 12.


edit: dont wanna be a snitch and removed that asshole's nick he is very likely gone anyway good ridance!

I'm not a troll and I downvoted you.

[normalizing]

 

 

 

im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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im just going to mention this again, have ark injected with all the cobra venom for his NGF enjoyment as much as possible.

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182 negative rep is probably a record, you should feel proud it's probably the only record outside of jail, you'll ever set.

 

I'm just going to mention cobra ngf one more time. :-)

Hi Ark,

Can you find a source of NGF from cobra venom ?

Playground.

Only the method I mentioned before.

yeh at 638 posts, now going for 39, having -12 reputation is so amazingly bad. i have been a long time member here, posted a lot, contributed a lot and at 638 posts its likely few trolls would disagree and negatively vote me down duh. only person i know who did vote me down with psychotic obsession was last year this asshole following me around each thread downvotting compulsively until he took a break it seems or got banned whatever.
and the next one is you! nobody else would have done it, but im pretty sure 2 people were enough to follow me around several threads downvoting to bring it to 12.


edit: dont wanna be a snitch and removed that asshole's nick he is very likely gone anyway good ridance!

I'm not a troll and I downvoted you.

 

 

why :(

 

[playground]

For those of you with a particular interest in Alzheimer's,  I've started a thread about the cause of Alzheimer's. 

My conclusion is that AD is caused by diet and that you can stop it progressing,  with dietary change.

See here:  http://www.longecity...lycotoxins-age/

 

Playground

 

Edited by playground, 21 June 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

 

Either way, it's good to have another approach. Perhaps a square of HEPA paper would do the trick.
 

 

 

Thanks, i'm glad you like the idea.

 

I've been considering two ideas for the paper.

 

1.  Rice paper (easily bought off ebay) 

     It's edible and comes in white and beige varieties.

     Note: rice paper dissolves in water.

 

2.  Chitosan paper (no idea where to get this).

     Chitosan is edible.  You can buy chitosan supplements, supposedly they block fat absorption.

     Chitosan is naturally antibacterial and antifungal, so the chances that anything will start growing on it are small.

     Chitosan is essentially insoluble in water - though it is soluble in dilute (weak) acids.  (According to the wikipedia page)

    

Being insoluble in water is a good thing, because, if you wanted to extract the NGF

from the paper, you could simply add water to reconstitute the NGF and maybe draw

off the water with a syringe and then spray it up your nose or drop it into your eye.

If you did this with rice paper, you'd end up with rice paper in your eye/up your nose. 

The rice paper may (or may not) be an irritant to your eyes or nasal passages.

 

So at the moment i prefer the idea of chitosan paper. 

But... i don't know where to get it from.

And... crucially..... i'm presuming it absorbs water.... it might not.

I'd like to buy some chitosan paper and play with it.

 

If anyone knows about this stuff... please let us know.

 

Playground.

 

 

 

 

It bears repeating: we must be extremely careful not to create a bacterial or amoebic culture by virtue of suppling a nutrient source (rice paper, or whatever). This is because nasal insufflation of sufficiently many such pathogens can result in acutely fatal meningitis.

 

I don't pretend to know how to guard against this over the years that we would presumably need to use NGF, which is why I'm personally going to stick with spray-and-pray. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a way. Presumably, mixing with subtoxic levels of disinfectant (swimming pool chlorine powder?) would help; then again, the disinfectant must not destroy the NGF.

[resveratrol_guy]

While thinking about this difficult NGF problem, I had another idea that might accomplish the same effect in the end, more cheaply and with much less hassle.

I've known for a while that whole lion's mane mushrooms can be purchased from China for around $20/kg plus shipping. The problem has been the lack of trust. I would assume, for instance, that most of these mushrooms are high in heavy metals or pesticides. But it occurred to me that this might be workable, even if we could not afford to test each individual mushroom. Allow me to explain.

First of all, eating just a few mushrooms per day would be enough to reach the doses used in the Japanese dementia study, so the toxin aspect is largely mitigated by the relatively small consumption volume. But they could be eaten with tumeric or vitamin C in the soup, which would bind some of the heavy metals before they could be absorbed. We might not be able to prevent pesticide absorption, but that might be acceptable if the neuroregenerative effects of the induced NGF outweigh the neurdodegenerative effects of the pestide dose.

I know this isn't a perfect solution, but it might be practical, considering that raw NGF is a thousand bucks per milligram and has all these other problems. Moreover, we might be able to megadose lion's mane up to a higher therapeutic level, as I haven't seen any study which looked at dose dependent response, probably due to the historically high cost of the mushroom. Some degree of liver enzyme elevation has been reported, but it's not clear whether this is due to the mushroom as opposed to processing chemicals, and even if so, how dangerous it actually is; suffice to say, I would be taking blood tests if megadosing.

The bottom line is that we don't know where lion's mane reaches maximum benefit, largely because in capsule form, it's so expensive that megadosing is generally impractical. By consuming whole mushrooms, we can achieve high lifelong doses in a manner which is sustainable for most people on this forum. I might add that because lion's mane cultivation (as opposed to gathering) seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon, there are not likely to be many anecdotes of people eating a bowl of the stuff every day.

So in order to improve the viability of this approach, I spent a long time browsing the Web for trustworthy sources at good prices. In addition to the links previously provided, I found some other vendors of interest:

1. Aloha Medicinals' lion's mane is US grown (in their own grow house, apparently) and much cheaper than Fungi Perfecti. Granted, Fungi Perfecti's pills are mycellium only, whereas Aloha's seem to be a mixture of mycellium and fruiting body, which have very different hericenone concentrations.

2. Shiyan Fulongshan Green Food is a Chinese source whose Alibaba ad is here. Of all the Chinese mass mushroom producers, they seem to be the most upfront about their process. And their front page features an actual outdoor mushroom farm, instead of marketing nonsense. Based on the somewhat unflattering photo with garbage next to the field (what do you expect?), I'm quite sure it's real. Nevertheless, the mushrooms seem to be safely elevated on wood stumps. Their employees dressed up in scrubs for the photos, but aren't wearing basic latex gloves. Then again, the equipment appears to be modern, it's $20/kg, and we can boil the mushrooms for biosafety.

3. John Lee Mushroom has lion's mane for sale here on eBay, around $80/kg including shipping. This company is run by a very publicly Christian Chinese, who at least seems to be serious about doing the right thing. As I understand, he works with local farmers and gatherers to ensure quality. At least, he's being very open about his enterprise and seems to be accept smaller orders. If he could cut his price in half with sufficient volume, he might make an excellent supplier.
 

Thoughts?

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 21 June 2015 - 10:06 PM.