39 replies to this topic

[Qowpel]

So I have been reading very much. Apparently, it seems that retinoids may actually CAUSE loss of subcutaneous fat. Retinoids have been used to lessen fat deposits in skin before, according to my reading, such as cellulite. If this is true and it has this inhibitory effect on adipocytes, maybe we should look into a seperate topical? As I am SURE that preventing the loss of subcutaneous fat, is much more important to skin youth appearance than the inhibitory effect retinoids have on collagenase? 

 

A bit worrisome. Actually very worrisome. That could prove VERY bad long term. 

 

A couple of posters from essentialdayspa mention this

 

Now this article is VERY interesting... 
Talks about using retinoids (a form of a retinoid)and decreased fat on an study performed on rats. It also mentions Vit A ingested leads to decrease body adiposity: 

http://resources.met...03&size=largest 

Another reference about the use of Vit A topically to decrease fat (used to treat cellulite): 

http://www.spa20-20....s/541feat1.html 

Quote: Topical retinoic acid and related vitamin A derivatives have been used to stimulate circulation, decrease the size of adipocytes and increase collagen deposition in the dermis.

Doesn't make you think about your face? I am using tretinoin (vit A) right now

 

                                                                                                                                                 

Also, discussion of white tea to be a possible culprit.......... Just when you think you have a fool proof routine, two of my favorite substances for skin care are crapped on and contradicted.

 

Zenity wrote: I have found another -apparently- enemy of fat: White tea 

Quote: For a 2009 study, researchers tested white tea's anti-obesity effects in a series of experiments on human fat cells. Results showed that white-tea extract prompted fat to break down in existing fat cells. What's more, white tea seemed to reduce the expression of genes crucial to the growth of new fat cells. 

While the study's authors suggest that white tea may be "an ideal natural source of slimming substances," scientists have yet to explore whether the tea could fight obesity when sipped (rather than administered directly to cells in a lab).

 

[Heyman]

Both links not working. I think you are starting to freak out, seriously. There is nothing wrong with the way your nasolabial folds are.

[Robert Ramirez]

I used retinoids since I was 16 for acne, and later continued using them until about I was 22. I am 25 years old now and my skin is easily aged a good ten years. The amount of damage retinoids did to my skin is not repairable. Nothing seems to fix the problem. So yes, you should always be wary of using any products.

Edited by Robert Ramirez, 30 July 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[gt35r]

I used retinoids since I was 16 for acne, and later continued using them until about I was 22. I am 25 years old now and my skin is easily aged a good ten years. The amount of damage retinoids did to my skin is not repairable. Nothing seems to fix the problem. So yes, you should always be wary of using any products.

 

How on earth do you know retinoids caused the damage? If you used it for that long how can you pinpoint it on a retinoid?

 

If anything, how do you know retinoids did not prevent further damage that was going to happen as a result of your aging?

[Qowpel]

Both links not working. I think you are starting to freak out, seriously. There is nothing wrong with the way your nasolabial folds are.

 

No I am not. I read your posts on the other forum. I am fine since you all agree it is normal. I am entirely calm and don't think it is a problem. But, I do use retin A, and recently read about that and said, "Well many of us at longecity are using retinoids. Maybe I should say something"   Because wouldn't it be a step forward if we came to a concensus that retinoids could do such a thing? I mean to me, this seems quite interesting

[goodman]

isotretinoin mightve done that to me

[Heyman]

 

Both links not working. I think you are starting to freak out, seriously. There is nothing wrong with the way your nasolabial folds are.

 

No I am not. I read your posts on the other forum. I am fine since you all agree it is normal. I am entirely calm and don't think it is a problem. But, I do use retin A, and recently read about that and said, "Well many of us at longecity are using retinoids. Maybe I should say something"   Because wouldn't it be a step forward if we came to a concensus that retinoids could do such a thing? I mean to me, this seems quite interesting

 

 

Fair enough. Would be nice if you could make the links working, then I could look at it...

[Qowpel]

isotretinoin mightve done that to me

 

You are the second person to note this now. Could you eleaborate as to why you believe this caused loss of that fat?

 

You are the second person to list this problem. I hope we can get more people to contribute

[Kalliste]

I drink 500-1000g of tomato juice (99% tomato kind) every other day. It's a pretty easy way to break the kilogram per day barrier when it comes to vegetables. I trust it more than vitamin pills too. Does it contain Retinoids or only Retinol?

[Qowpel]

I drink 500-1000g of tomato juice (99% tomato kind) every other day. It's a pretty easy way to break the kilogram per day barrier when it comes to vegetables. I trust it more than vitamin pills too. Does it contain Retinoids or only Retinol?

Retinol 

[twinkly]

I drink 500-1000g of tomato juice (99% tomato kind) every other day. It's a pretty easy way to break the kilogram per day barrier when it comes to vegetables. I trust it more than vitamin pills too. Does it contain Retinoids or only Retinol?

 

Is this for the added, natural photo-protection, or is there anything else I didn't know of?

[Kalliste]

Yes I suspect it does a good service in the sunlight of the summer. Lycopene also seems like a promising substance in general. And it's easy and cheap way to get a massive amount of fruit/berries in my diet.

[Qowpel]

any further input guys?

[Qowpel]

any further input guys?

 

I do suppose we could offset this potential effect with certain topicals like Volufilline, or Bio Bustyl. That would be good I think

[Maecenas]

I was using  0.05% retinoic acid for almost a year under my eyes and it almost doubled the amount of wrinkles. 6 months has passed since and they didn't get better.

[niner]

I do suppose we could offset this potential effect with certain topicals like Volufilline, or Bio Bustyl. That would be good I think

 

I'm not sure that we even know that retinoids cause loss of subcutaneous fat.  I suspect they don't.  Can you get a working link to those articles?  That would give us a little more to go on.

[JBForrester]

I used retinoids since I was 16 for acne, and later continued using them until about I was 22. I am 25 years old now and my skin is easily aged a good ten years. The amount of damage retinoids did to my skin is not repairable. Nothing seems to fix the problem. So yes, you should always be wary of using any products.

 

It's really interesting you say this - last year I was at a cosmetics counter and was approached by a woman who looked around 30. I was specifically looking for a facial cream without retinoids and on that topic she had told me that she had been using retinoids religiously for acne since she was around 15. She was 22 now. 22! She looked at least 30! It does make me wonder... However, if we are on the subject of subcutaneous fat, she did have quite a large amount of that. So retinoids did nothing in that area.

[Qowpel]

 

I used retinoids since I was 16 for acne, and later continued using them until about I was 22. I am 25 years old now and my skin is easily aged a good ten years. The amount of damage retinoids did to my skin is not repairable. Nothing seems to fix the problem. So yes, you should always be wary of using any products.

 

It's really interesting you say this - last year I was at a cosmetics counter and was approached by a woman who looked around 30. I was specifically looking for a facial cream without retinoids and on that topic she had told me that she had been using retinoids religiously for acne since she was around 15. She was 22 now. 22! She looked at least 30! It does make me wonder... However, if we are on the subject of subcutaneous fat, she did have quite a large amount of that. So retinoids did nothing in that area.

 

 

I don't get it? I would think that the amount of subcutaneous fat that she has would directly play a role as I know the less you have in the upper cheeks, the more your nasolabial folds will increase as I am sure this what you saw along with the subsequent hollowness around the eye area? What exactly did you notice that pointed more to a collagen or elastin problem rather than a subcutaneous fat problem? Also, she very possibly did not use sunscreen that whole time, I can only imagine the amount of damage you would have using no sunscreen as well as retinoids (meaning the top layer of your epidermis is eventually gone). I mean over 7 years.... She could have had bad sleep habits and bad nutrition as well
 

[JBForrester]

 

 

I used retinoids since I was 16 for acne, and later continued using them until about I was 22. I am 25 years old now and my skin is easily aged a good ten years. The amount of damage retinoids did to my skin is not repairable. Nothing seems to fix the problem. So yes, you should always be wary of using any products.

 

It's really interesting you say this - last year I was at a cosmetics counter and was approached by a woman who looked around 30. I was specifically looking for a facial cream without retinoids and on that topic she had told me that she had been using retinoids religiously for acne since she was around 15. She was 22 now. 22! She looked at least 30! It does make me wonder... However, if we are on the subject of subcutaneous fat, she did have quite a large amount of that. So retinoids did nothing in that area.

 

 

I don't get it? I would think that the amount of subcutaneous fat that she has would directly play a role as I know the less you have in the upper cheeks, the more your nasolabial folds will increase as I am sure this what you saw along with the subsequent hollowness around the eye area? What exactly did you notice that pointed more to a collagen or elastin problem rather than a subcutaneous fat problem? Also, she very possibly did not use sunscreen that whole time, I can only imagine the amount of damage you would have using no sunscreen as well as retinoids (meaning the top layer of your epidermis is eventually gone). I mean over 7 years.... She could have had bad sleep habits and bad nutrition as well
 

 

 

Are you telling me you have never seen a 30 year old who is chubby in the face and looks 30? Well, she was 22 with a chubby face but looked 30. But yes, lack of sunscreen could have been a factor. As well as bad nutrition. But I will say I have never seen 22 year old who looked as old as she did.
 

[Qowpel]

 

 

 

I used retinoids since I was 16 for acne, and later continued using them until about I was 22. I am 25 years old now and my skin is easily aged a good ten years. The amount of damage retinoids did to my skin is not repairable. Nothing seems to fix the problem. So yes, you should always be wary of using any products.

 

It's really interesting you say this - last year I was at a cosmetics counter and was approached by a woman who looked around 30. I was specifically looking for a facial cream without retinoids and on that topic she had told me that she had been using retinoids religiously for acne since she was around 15. She was 22 now. 22! She looked at least 30! It does make me wonder... However, if we are on the subject of subcutaneous fat, she did have quite a large amount of that. So retinoids did nothing in that area.

 

 

I don't get it? I would think that the amount of subcutaneous fat that she has would directly play a role as I know the less you have in the upper cheeks, the more your nasolabial folds will increase as I am sure this what you saw along with the subsequent hollowness around the eye area? What exactly did you notice that pointed more to a collagen or elastin problem rather than a subcutaneous fat problem? Also, she very possibly did not use sunscreen that whole time, I can only imagine the amount of damage you would have using no sunscreen as well as retinoids (meaning the top layer of your epidermis is eventually gone). I mean over 7 years.... She could have had bad sleep habits and bad nutrition as well
 

 

 

Are you telling me you have never seen a 30 year old who is chubby in the face and looks 30? Well, she was 22 with a chubby face but looked 30. But yes, lack of sunscreen could have been a factor. As well as bad nutrition. But I will say I have never seen 22 year old who looked as old as she did.
 

 

Hmm, well at the same time there are many early to mid twenty year olds that use retinids that surely look their age, if not slightly older or slightly younger. But the no sunscreen thin could Easily have ben enough to put her into such a position, especially with repeat, exaggerated sun exposure

[Maecenas]

I think maybe people with different skin have different response to retinoids. Mine reacted awfully, although I began with the 0.025% creme. The skin was very irritated during the first 2 months of usage it was exeteremely dry during the next 4 and I stopped using the creme as I was scared by new wrinkles, which appeared overnight. Even now after half a year since I stopped using retinoic acid the skin around my eyes looks somewhat yellowish and wrinkles haven't disappeared. So I recommend everyone who starts using retinoids to be very cautious, they can devastate your skin.

[Qowpel]

I think maybe people with different skin have different response to retinoids. Mine reacted awfully, although I began with the 0.025% creme. The skin was very irritated during the first 2 months of usage it was exeteremely dry during the next 4 and I stopped using the creme as I was scared by new wrinkles, which appeared overnight. Even now after half a year since I stopped using retinoic acid the skin around my eyes looks somewhat yellowish and wrinkles haven't disappeared. So I recommend everyone who starts using retinoids to be very cautious, they can devastate your skin.

 

Do not be too alarmed. I used them around the eyes for roughly  month. It took my eyes 4 months to return to normal which means overall it will take a while for them to return to norml. Tell you what, I can say for sue that Nia24 products were a major help in restoring moisture there, that and any cream with ceramides in it to rebuild the layer of skin stripped from retinoid use. Lastly, you Could also use Emu oil, incredibly hydrating. Just give it a shot and give your skin a bit more time using those things and then report back

[elemerendero1]

But damn! PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME retinoids FOR NO REASON! YOU ARE DOING HARM TO YOURSELF!

In addition to the heavy side effects at the physical level (which I'm not sure they are completely reversible) causes of heavy side effects in the brain. In my country people have committed suicide, and I know a couple who have had (and maybe still have) psychological problems caused by isotretinoin. I'm not at all against drugs, indeed! However, there are some that I would avoid like the plague ... and this is the first place.

Edited by elemerendero1, 20 September 2014 - 08:54 PM.

[mustardseed41]

Isotretinoin....aka Accutane, is not the same as using topical Tretinoin.

[elemerendero1]

we talk about topical? tretinoin and isotretinoin belong to the same class, and taken orally share many effects (good or not). Used as creams are ok ... I would say super! but the use of oral definitely no .

[Qowpel]

we talk about topical? tretinoin and isotretinoin belong to the same class, and taken orally share many effects (good or not). Used as creams are ok ... I would say super! but the use of oral definitely no .

 

Was just reading further into this forum. Some believe that the phenomenon of "thinned skin" after long term retin A use, of course, may be due to the epidermis being stripped fro the rapid sloughing off of skin cells. But also, it seems that the MMPs that Retinoids slow the formation of, are actually crucial to skin remodeling and collagen formation. To me this may mean that...........ok let me put it this way.........

 

Let's say you use retin A. What do you do to combat the sun sensitivity? You avoid the sun a lot. While simultaneously wearing a good sunscreen daily. This means that essentially, you get very little sun exposure meaning that the subsequent amount of MMPs generated are very low.......... Well if they ARE chronically very low from ridiculously low sun exposure, and they ARE crucial to skin remodeling (unless they are in excess due to excessive sun exposure which would cause degradation in the extracellular matrix), then I guess over time, this would mean that the ADDING of a retinoid to reduce MMP production could be bad, as we would be lowering the amount of MMPs so much, that in the long term there would be a considerable net loss in skin remodeling due to Super chronically low MMPs.......................

 

Does this make sense?.............. Maybe I am onto something. . .Maybe this means we should use retinids less? Let's tackle this issue and try to come to a concensus

[gt35r]

Regardless of anecdotal evidence, the vast majority of evidence seems to indicate that tretinoin ( and pretty much all retinoids) are safe and effective. There does not seems to be any good evidence to suggest that retinoids cause loss of subcutaneous fat. Saying that you saw someone who uses retinoids but looks older then their biological age is not really useful. 

 

Comparing the claimed side effects of PO isotretinoin to topical tretinoin is a useless comparison. Oral isotretinoin is given at around 50 mg a day by mouth where is topical isotretinoin less than one milligram topical (assuming 0.1% w/w). Even in the case of 50mg PO Isotretinoin the claimed side effects are very rare and debatable. 

 

I would go with where the body of evidence is rather than speculation and anecdotes. 

 

So far all I heard was I starting using tretinoin and years later (sometimes many many years) I think I look worse. Its at best a correlation of two event, not to mention that the results are highly subjective. 

[niner]

 

we talk about topical? tretinoin and isotretinoin belong to the same class, and taken orally share many effects (good or not). Used as creams are ok ... I would say super! but the use of oral definitely no .

 

Was just reading further into this forum. Some believe that the phenomenon of "thinned skin" after long term retin A use, of course, may be due to the epidermis being stripped fro the rapid sloughing off of skin cells. But also, it seems that the MMPs that Retinoids slow the formation of, are actually crucial to skin remodeling and collagen formation. To me this may mean that...........ok let me put it this way.........

 

Let's say you use retin A. What do you do to combat the sun sensitivity? You avoid the sun a lot. While simultaneously wearing a good sunscreen daily. This means that essentially, you get very little sun exposure meaning that the subsequent amount of MMPs generated are very low.......... Well if they ARE chronically very low from ridiculously low sun exposure, and they ARE crucial to skin remodeling (unless they are in excess due to excessive sun exposure which would cause degradation in the extracellular matrix), then I guess over time, this would mean that the ADDING of a retinoid to reduce MMP production could be bad, as we would be lowering the amount of MMPs so much, that in the long term there would be a considerable net loss in skin remodeling due to Super chronically low MMPs.......................

 

Does this make sense?.............. Maybe I am onto something. . .Maybe this means we should use retinids less? Let's tackle this issue and try to come to a concensus

 

No, it doesn't.   I don't know where the "thinned skin" thing is coming from.  Topical retinoids help to build collagen over the long term.  Dryness and irritation are side effects usually caused by improper use.  This is not a drug that anyone should use without first understanding how to use it properly.   I'd recommend that people with sensitive skin start with retinaldehyde, and use that for 6-12 months, then switch to retinoic acid.  That will give your skin a good chance to adapt to retinoid treatment.

[mustardseed41]

Yep the consensus is retinoids, when used correctly, have been proven for over 30 years. You think most Derms just lie when they sing the praises of it?

[JBForrester]

Regardless of anecdotal evidence, the vast majority of evidence seems to indicate that tretinoin ( and pretty much all retinoids) are safe and effective. There does not seems to be any good evidence to suggest that retinoids cause loss of subcutaneous fat. Saying that you saw someone who uses retinoids but looks older then their biological age is not really useful.

Comparing the claimed side effects of PO isotretinoin to topical tretinoin is a useless comparison. Oral isotretinoin is given at around 50 mg a day by mouth where is topical isotretinoin less than one milligram topical (assuming 0.1% w/w). Even in the case of 50mg PO Isotretinoin the claimed side effects are very rare and debatable.

I would go with where the body of evidence is rather than speculation and anecdotes.

So far all I heard was I starting using tretinoin and years later (sometimes many many years) I think I look worse. Its at best a correlation of two event, not to mention that the results are highly subjective.

Well, I have used my face as a guinea pig far too often and actually do prefer to see people up close who have done anything cosmetic that I am considering. I had made the mistake of using prescribed retin-a, following the derm's orders, and within the week had developed wrinkling around my eyes (yes, she told me I was more than welcome to use it around my eyes). So yes, like some say, maybe it works for some, maybe not for others. Our skin's tolerance and sensitivity to products vary significantly from one person to the next. Very few studies in general show that 100% of participants have the same effect. It all varies. But perhaps mustardseed and niner are correct - if done *correctly* it can have a positive effect. In my case, I would say if *instructed* correctly by my derm maybe it could have made a difference. And mind you, I had gone to the best dermatologist in the city (who only spent what seemed like a rushed 5 minutes with me because she was running behind).