28 replies to this topic

[Dlauth]

I was taking 250mg CDP 2x a day and have noticed brain fog/tiredness. Any thoughts?

 

Current Regimen:
Centrum Multi 1x Morning

2.4g Piracitam 2x Day
1.2g Omega-3 2x Day
5k IU Vitamin D Every Other Day
1000mg Ester-C 1x Morning
400mg SAMe 1x Morning
750mg Glucosamine 2x Day
750mg MSM 2x Day
150mg Wellbutrin XL 1x Morning

[komoku]

250mg twice a day is a massive dose... CDP choline's half-life is like 4-5 days... you're accumulating significant amounts in your body at that dose, i'm surprised you haven't gotten any neck stiffness from it

 

to compare... i take 50mg once a day with 2 racetams...

[Dlauth]

Hmmm, I was just reading the bottle and it states to use 2 caps of 250mg per day.

[komoku]

from examine.com:

 

"2.3. Excretion

The half-life of elimination for the choline spike seen with supplemental CDP-choline (1000mg) appears to be fairly delayed, at 66.348+/-8.445 hours.^[4]"

 

from micromedex:

 

"Absorption

A) Bioavailability

1) Oral, 99% [23].

a) Percentage based on excretion data [23].

Distribution

A) Distribution Sites

1) OTHER DISTRIBUTION SITES

a) Cerebrospinal fluid, unquantified [24].

1) Choline derived from CITICOLINE crosses the blood-brain barrier, presumably serving as a source for acetylcholine and phosphatidylcholine (lecithin) synthesis [24].

b) Other tissues, unquantified [23].

1) The major portion of a dose of citicoline appears to be incorporated into tissues and/or used in biosynthetic/biodegradation pathways, including lecithin/lipid membrane synthesis [23].

Metabolism

A) Metabolism Sites and Kinetics

1) Intestinal wall, unquantified [23].

a) Oral doses only [23].

2) Liver, unquantified [23].

a) Citicoline is metabolized in the liver to free choline. The liver is capable of synthesizing lecithin from choline, and resynthesizing citicoline from cytidine and choline [23].

B) Metabolites

1) choline, (activity unspecified) [23].

2) cytidine diphosphate, (activity unspecified) [23].

Excretion

A) Kidney

1) Renal Excretion (%)

a) 2% to 3% [23].

2) Oral doses, excretion over 5 days, presumably in the form of choline and cytidine diphosphate [23].

B) Other

1) OTHER EXCRETION

a) Feces, less than 1% [23].

1) Recovered five days after oral dosing [23].

b) Lung, 12% [23].

1) Excreted through the lungs as carbon dioxide [23].

Elimination Half-life
A) Parent Compound

1) ELIMINATION HALF-LIFE

a) 3.5 hours (first peak concentration), 125 hours (second peak concentration) [23].

B) Metabolites
1) Choline, 2 hours [24].
a) Intramuscular administration results in half-life of 2 hours for free choline [24].

 

[23] Dinsdale JRM, Griffiths GK, Rowlands C, et al: Pharmacokinetics of 14C CDP-choline. Arzneimittelforschung 1983; 33:1066-1070.

[24] Gatti G, Barzaghi N, Acuto G, et al: A comparative study of free plasma choline levels following intramuscular administration of L-a-glycerylphosphorylcholine and citicoline in normal volunteers. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol 1992; 30:331-335.

"

 

when i first got CDP choline... i was also doing 250mg BID... and within 3 days i got bad neck pain and brain fog... I thought I was doing everything right and it just didn't make sense... until i researched the half-life and then cut back my dose down to 50mg... now with 50mg a day i experience no headaches or brain fog and can utilize my racetams more effectively... and sometimes when i've had a more stressed day or if i'm doing a ton of reading and analyzing, i'll take maybe 20mg or 30mg more in response to racetam headaches, but i don't go anywhere near 250mg even once a day...

Edited by komoku, 02 August 2014 - 01:31 AM.

[PDW]

This is interesting. What if I took one 250 mg capsule before bed and didn't take anymore for 4-5 days or maybe a day sooner depending on how I felt? Could I do that instead of messing with micro 50 mg doses? CDP choline makes me really tired for some reason which is why I mention taking it before bed. It also gives me a massive erection, but what good is that if I want to fall asleep haha.

[komoku]

This is interesting. What if I took one 250 mg capsule before bed and didn't take anymore for 4-5 days or maybe a day sooner depending on how I felt? Could I do that instead of messing with micro 50 mg doses? CDP choline makes me really tired for some reason which is why I mention taking it before bed. It also gives me a massive erection, but what good is that if I want to fall asleep haha.

 

if you can handle a 250 dose without getting side effects like cognitive dulling or stiff-neck then that would work. but be careful about stacking with other nootropics... for example of you took coluracetam, which enhances choline uptake, then you're enhancing the uptake of choline on top of giving yourself a 250mg dose of CDP... so make sure to do your research carefully when you stack that kind of dose with other nootropics

[PDW]

Well, since the cdp makes me tired I guess the negative effects don't matter much cause I'll be asleep. The only other nootropic I take right now is noopept and I'm having varying results with that.

[PDW]

To my understanding noopept only depletes choline stores a little bit, not as much as say piracetam. So I should be ok yea?

[Duchykins]

from examine.com:

"2.3. Excretion
The half-life of elimination for the choline spike seen with supplemental CDP-choline (1000mg) appears to be fairly delayed, at 66.348+/-8.445 hours.^[4]"

from micromedex:

"Absorption
A) Bioavailability

1) Oral, 99% [23].

a) Percentage based on excretion data [23].
Distribution

A) Distribution Sites

1) OTHER DISTRIBUTION SITES

a) Cerebrospinal fluid, unquantified [24].

1) Choline derived from CITICOLINE crosses the blood-brain barrier, presumably serving as a source for acetylcholine and phosphatidylcholine (lecithin) synthesis [24].
b) Other tissues, unquantified [23].

1) The major portion of a dose of citicoline appears to be incorporated into tissues and/or used in biosynthetic/biodegradation pathways, including lecithin/lipid membrane synthesis [23].
Metabolism

A) Metabolism Sites and Kinetics

1) Intestinal wall, unquantified [23].

a) Oral doses only [23].
2) Liver, unquantified [23].

a) Citicoline is metabolized in the liver to free choline. The liver is capable of synthesizing lecithin from choline, and resynthesizing citicoline from cytidine and choline [23].B) Metabolites

1) choline, (activity unspecified) [23].
2) cytidine diphosphate, (activity unspecified) [23].
Excretion

A) Kidney

1) Renal Excretion (%)

a) 2% to 3% [23].
2) Oral doses, excretion over 5 days, presumably in the form of choline and cytidine diphosphate [23].B) Other

1) OTHER EXCRETION

a) Feces, less than 1% [23].

1) Recovered five days after oral dosing [23].
b) Lung, 12% [23].

1) Excreted through the lungs as carbon dioxide [23].
Elimination Half-life
A) Parent Compound

1) ELIMINATION HALF-LIFE

a) 3.5 hours (first peak concentration), 125 hours (second peak concentration) [23].
B) Metabolites
1) Choline, 2 hours [24].
a) Intramuscular administration results in half-life of 2 hours for free choline [24].

[23] Dinsdale JRM, Griffiths GK, Rowlands C, et al: Pharmacokinetics of 14C CDP-choline. Arzneimittelforschung 1983; 33:1066-1070.
[24] Gatti G, Barzaghi N, Acuto G, et al: A comparative study of free plasma choline levels following intramuscular administration of L-a-glycerylphosphorylcholine and citicoline in normal volunteers. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol 1992; 30:331-335.
"

when i first got CDP choline... i was also doing 250mg BID... and within 3 days i got bad neck pain and brain fog... I thought I was doing everything right and it just didn't make sense... until i researched the half-life and then cut back my dose down to 50mg... now with 50mg a day i experience no headaches or brain fog and can utilize my racetams more effectively... and sometimes when i've had a more stressed day or if i'm doing a ton of reading and analyzing, i'll take maybe 20mg or 30mg more in response to racetam headaches, but i don't go anywhere near 250mg even once a day...

Thank you for this. I'm glad I hung onto my bottle of citicoline, I'll try your method

[Dlauth]

I believe the only potential issue with choline intake at night is you will not get the full potential of memory consolidation.

[redFishBlueFish]

Weird my post didnt go up. Examine.com recommends Choline Bitartrate at the level the op is doing, but not for cdp. I always wonder why they put the dose they do on bottles. When ai take Choline with my b complex i sleep like a baby

[Dlauth]

Could someone please clarify the issue with choline at night and memory consolidation issues.

 

Is it recommended for b complex to be taken before bed?

[PDW]

I took one 300mg alpha gpc cap and one 250mg cdp choline cap last night a couple hours before bed. Slept soundly and for 10 hours without waking up. Woke feeling pretty refreshed with a very minor headache and a slight bit of tension but really nothing bothersome. I like both of these choline sources for their varying effects which is why I took them together. I suppose if I took this once a week say on a friday night it might be beneficial. I could never sleep 10 hours on my work days haha. Theres just no time for that.

[PDW]

Nice. I took a 750 mg cap of aniracetam and the headache is dissipating some. Maybe a slight lift in mood but thats about it so far.

[redFishBlueFish]

Another post made and not posted.... i dont take my b complex before bed but examine.com recommends taking b2 to reduce fish odor. Maybe thats why i dont smell. Lol

[PDW]

I've never taken b2 by itself, but I do take a b complex in the morning which balances my mood some. Don't take b6 by itself in the morning though, that just about knocked me out before work. It was not good lol. Turns out it is good for sleep.

[PDW]

Is it necessary for me to take more cdp or alpha gpc then what I have taken for the week if I was taking 1400mg of aniracetam a day? I'm not going to at the moment, gonna wait it out a few days and see if I get any headaches. I know one thing though, the low grade headache I had earlier today was due to the high dose of choline I took last night and once I took the aniracetam the headache left quickly, about 45 minutes.

[komoku]

Is it necessary for me to take more cdp or alpha gpc then what I have taken for the week if I was taking 1400mg of aniracetam a day? I'm not going to at the moment, gonna wait it out a few days and see if I get any headaches. I know one thing though, the low grade headache I had earlier today was due to the high dose of choline I took last night and once I took the aniracetam the headache left quickly, about 45 minutes.

 

i think the best way to deal with choline supplementation is to take it in response to racetam headaches instead of the other way around. if choline in your brain gets too low, racetams will let you know by giving you a headache... and that headache goes away within 30 min by taking a choline supp.

 

taking it your way will create excess choline... and removing/reducing something that's already in your body is harder/riskier than replacing something that's low in your body.

[PDW]

Thanks for the reply! I have one other question that I've gotten mixed answers on. Should I take cdp choline before taking aniracetam or after?

[komoku]

Thanks for the reply! I have one other question that I've gotten mixed answers on. Should I take cdp choline before taking aniracetam or after?

 

once you know how you respond to aniracetam (i.e. how often you might get racetam headaches), you'll know if you need a daily CDP intake or just taking it as needed.

 

therefore take it after aniracetam and in response to a headache. from my personal experience, I have gotten racetam headaches maybe twice but have gotten choline overload a handful more times... and I take CDP 50mg once a day every day. the 50mg dose works best for me to minimize choline overload and my track record for racetam headaches means the baseline CDP intake is keeping them at bay.

[PDW]

What did you experience with cdp overload?

Edited by PDW, 09 August 2014 - 04:43 AM.

[Mr Matsubayashi]

Choline makes me depressed.

 

The best explanation I could find for this issue was the balance between choline and other neurotransmitters. If ACh is too high then it displaces? dopamine and serotonin.

 

I run naturally high on choline (or maybe just naturally low on other neurotransmitters), I stay away from choline after trying ALCAR, CDP and A-GPC.

 

 

 

 

[Tom_]

If you look at studies using Citiocholine doses are almost always 1gram + a day. There are rarely any adverse effects recorded and those that are very minor. After about 5-10 days a stable dose will appear in the tissues. I took Citocholine for a few weeks at around 1-2g a day and had nothing but positive effects.

[thises]

choline made me depressed also

[PDW]

I've been taking cdp choline off and on this week and found it makes me tired. I also noticed that if I take to much it dampens the effects of aniracetam. I find Aniracetam really lifts my mood, relieves anxiety, and give me a certain clarity and calmness in my mind. Its like my mind becomes still and I can really focus and take in everything thats happening around me right now in the moment. If I take to much cdp choline I find myself tired, irritable, and in a negative mood and dampens out all of those positive effects of aniracetam. So finding the right balance I'm finding is crucial.

[markymark]

I took 250 mg CDP-Choline (LEF) two days ago in the morning. Nothing noteworthy so far during that day. Yesterday I took one 250 mg CDP-Choline in the morning and another around 2.00 p.m.. After about 60-90 mins I became really tired and had to take a 2 h nap on the couch, which is absolutely uncommon for me.

So the tiredness-inducing phenomenon seems to have ocurred... It would be interesting to have blood-melatonin values in those who become tired after CDP Choline... I will try it again and possibly will take the second portion in the evening then.... How about gene polymorphisms in those individuals who become tired taking CDP-choline...

mm

[markymark]

addendum:

the phenomenon of becoming tired after CDP-choline did not happen again and in order not to produce exaggerated experiences I am posting this addendum.

I use CDP-Choline 250 mg: 1-1-0,Uridine 1-0-0 with two days off /week.

[Storböle]

if you can handle a 250 dose without getting side effects like cognitive dulling or stiff-neck then that would work. but be careful about stacking with other nootropics... for example of you took coluracetam, which enhances choline uptake, then you're enhancing the uptake of choline on top of giving yourself a 250mg dose of CDP... so make sure to do your research carefully when you stack that kind of dose with other nootropics

 

 

Well i wanna enchance the choline uptake, you imply as many people seem to do that 250 mg is a big CDP Choline dose, however i wanna remind that there are human studys on alzheimer patient who took 1, 5 gram of citicholine

who was accepted by the patients, its offcourse hard to know if they got tired during the trials, but it doesnt count as a side effect im pretty sure

 

With that in mind i have accutally hold back the dose by stacking with only 500 mg Citicholine powder in 10 mg Clarityn syrup and xylitol-dropps!. 

 

(Second-generation antihistamines, like Lotradine (Claritin), do not cross the blood-brain barrier and do not cause drowsiness)

 

However maybe citicholine can activate a clarityn drowsiness anyway ore enchance eachothers sedative effects by helping eachother pass BBB? (if so im glad) since im noticing a fast sedative effect within 10 minutes, the person im giving this combination to more or less goes in and out of a sedative/dormancy state for 1 and a half hour, im not sure how long it takes to recover in energy again from a uridine? boost that reddit claim are behind getting sleepy https://www.reddit.c...ake_you_sleepy/

 

Taking acetyl-L-carnitine by mouth might improve mental and physical tiredness in older people"

 

Stacking Citicholine and ALCAR is a known combination, doesnt nessesary mean that its combined cholinergic effects will make you getting drowsier than you allready is by my Citicholine/Clarityn combo, only time will tell cause going to add ALCAR 1000 mg to the stack,

and if we are really lucky maybe? ALCAR infact could as a bonus counter the possible Uridine sleep effect (which is a positive thing for neuroprotection on the other hand, so its worth the drowsyness)

 

 

Edited by Storböle, 22 October 2023 - 10:20 PM.

[Storböle]

I doubt Markymark will reply,  but feel free to do so anybody else, or i must create a own topic for my post

 

Edited by Storböle, 23 October 2023 - 10:39 AM.