65 replies to this topic

[knockout_mice]

Do you have any experience with dopamine agonists for cognitive enhancement / mood brightening? I'm going to buy Pramipexole (Mirapex), but first i'd like to hear your stories.

 

The obtained results indicate that, in the tests used, pramipexole evokes effects similar to those of typical antidepressants and, at the same time, enhances their activity (the forced swimming test in rats); therefore it may be regarded as a potential antidepressant drug.

http://link.springer...1007/BF01277669

 

Pramipexole helped safely alleviate the symptoms of depression at 1.0 mg per day and especially in those patients who could tolerate the escalation to 5 mg per day.

http://onlinelibrary...CO;2-H/abstract

 

[thises]

where can you find it?

[Major Legend]

Not this again...

 

Google G4D and Pramipexole.

Edited by Major Legend, 10 August 2014 - 12:01 AM.

[knockout_mice]

Not this again...

 

Google G4D and Pramipexole.

 

I couldn't find anything because he deleted all of his posts from Mind and Muscle. As far as I know he is the only one who got serious withdrawal symptoms, so I don't really worry.

[knockout_mice]

Btw, what's the deal with Amineptine? It's not a dopamine agonist, but it's a somewhat selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. There were cases of hepatotoxicity, but the abuse potential was the real reason for its withdrawal from the market. Everybody loved Amineptine.

 

I'd like to use an antidepressant without the SSRI side effects. Ketamine is a good candidate, but I wouldn't use it more than once a week and I'm not sure the AD effect will last that long.

[Galaxyshock]

I'd like to use an antidepressant without the SSRI side effects. Ketamine is a good candidate, but I wouldn't use it more than once a week and I'm not sure the AD effect will last that long.

 

You could try St. John's Wort, or Agmatine.

[knockout_mice]

You could try St. John's Wort, or Agmatine.

 

St. John's Wort didn't work for me, just gave me a weird tinnitus.

 

Agmatine seems interesting, but why would it help my low mood? I don't need another anti-addictive / neuroprotective noot.

[Tom_]

Dopamine agonists have in human studies failed to show consistent antidepressive effect but they MAY be effective as adjunct treatments.

 

Ketamine is an awful idea. Unless you can get medical grade stuff and it isn't actually any more effective than SSRI's with a 60% effectivness rate. Also oral trials haven't been performed and so far only intramuscular trials have been successful. The effects don't last for that long a month at most. More importantly there is hardly an research supporting it in human trials.

 

If you don't want SSRI antidepressant side effects, why don't you take a different type of antidepressant??? Mirtazapine, Trazadone, Tianeptine, Wellbutrin, Moclobremide, Reboxetine, Agomelatine and Viloxazine are all non-ssri options with reasonable side effects.

 

If you want to try some unevidence based supplemental treatment then you could always use CDP-Choline, L-Tryptophan, a multi-vitamine, Sulbutramine, Noopept, etc...

[Introspecta]

If you want to become a gay sex addict that gambles all his money away then go right ahead you use dopamine agonists!

[Tom_]

The idea that dopamine agonists can change your sexual preferences is utter shit.

Pro-dopaminergic drugs, generally limited to L-Dopa and Dopamine agonists can cause dopamine dsyregulation syndrome (which I assume is what you are refering to, all be it in a limited and misunderstood way) and addictive behaviour, psychosis, obessive behaviour, extreme and reckless hedonism are possible. However this tends to only occure with long term, high dose, multi-dopaminergic drugs.

[Flex]

If you want to become a gay sex addict that gambles all his money away then go right ahead you use dopamine agonists!

 

lol but its true. Here the reference:

http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=17839255

 

5ht2a blockade "could" cause nonselective sexual preference towards both genders.

You are not actually Gay, but rather BIsexual.

Because it disinhibits dopamine in a certain brain area

 

I´m too lazy and busy to find the reference of this.

If I dont forget it, I will post it afterwards.

[Flex]

 

Not this again...

 

Google G4D and Pramipexole.

 

I couldn't find anything because he deleted all of his posts from Mind and Muscle. As far as I know he is the only one who got serious withdrawal symptoms, so I don't really worry.

 

 

Look out for Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome ( DAWS)

3 Dopamine agonists can cause this and Pramipexole is one of them!!

It causes a denervation of Dopamine synapses/axons (?) in 19% of the People.

This in turn needs several Months to Years to regenerate (if even)

 

Same case again:

If I dont forget it, I´ll post it.

[Introspecta]

Oh I know its True. I also know the strange sexual tendencies that change when using dopamine boosting drugs so it really doesn't surprise me that a dopamine agonist would cause a straight person to get sick thrills out of gay sex or gambling.

 

I'm sure Dopamine agonists can be helpful in some cases short term but I definitely wouldn't want to risk making some poor choices due to a drug just to treat my depression. The sad thing is your depression would probably be cured but your life will flip upside down and when the drug stops working or starts causing side effects the depression is back and your wondering what the heck happened in the past few months. Of course this won't happen to everyone but is it worth the risk?

[knockout_mice]

If you want to become a gay sex addict that gambles all his money away then go right ahead you use dopamine agonists!

 

Don't worry, I'm already a gay sex and drug addict hedonist gambler poet.

 

Look out for Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome ( DAWS)

3 Dopamine agonists can cause this and Pramipexole is one of them!!

It causes a denervation of Dopamine synapses/axons (?) in 19% of the People.

This in turn needs several Months to Years to regenerate (if even)

 

Same case again:

If I dont forget it, I´ll post it.

 

 

Please post studies about it, I'm sceptical. It's believable that it has a long-term effect on your mood after discontinuation, but why would it cause "denervation"?

 

Oh I know its True. I also know the strange sexual tendencies that change when using dopamine boosting drugs so it really doesn't surprise me that a dopamine agonist would cause a straight person to get sick thrills out of gay sex or gambling.

 

I'm sure Dopamine agonists can be helpful in some cases short term but I definitely wouldn't want to risk making some poor choices due to a drug just to treat my depression. The sad thing is your depression would probably be cured but your life will flip upside down and when the drug stops working or starts causing side effects the depression is back and your wondering what the heck happened in the past few months. Of course this won't happen to everyone but is it worth the risk?

 

Thanks for your opinion. If I can find a better drug I'm going to use that. At the moment I'm really desperate.

 

Dopamine agonists have in human studies failed to show consistent antidepressive effect but they MAY be effective as adjunct treatments.

 

Ketamine is an awful idea. Unless you can get medical grade stuff and it isn't actually any more effective than SSRI's with a 60% effectivness rate. Also oral trials haven't been performed and so far only intramuscular trials have been successful. The effects don't last for that long a month at most. More importantly there is hardly an research supporting it in human trials.

 

If you don't want SSRI antidepressant side effects, why don't you take a different type of antidepressant??? Mirtazapine, Trazadone, Tianeptine, Wellbutrin, Moclobremide, Reboxetine, Agomelatine and Viloxazine are all non-ssri options with reasonable side effects.

 

If you want to try some unevidence based supplemental treatment then you could always use CDP-Choline, L-Tryptophan, a multi-vitamine, Sulbutramine, Noopept, etc...

 

I think you mean intravenously, not intramuscularly. Typically they use a very slow intravenous infusion to minimize the dissociative side effects. I wouldn't dose neither intramuscularly or intravenously, but insufflation is always an option and I don't get why wouldn't it work. Of course there are no studies on intranasal... D:

 

I was on Moclobemide for two months, but it made me really lazy and my libido was non-existent. Selegiline was the only drug that helped me, but I was an egoistic evil prick on it. I had to stop because of its side-effect profile. I'm going to educate myself on the atypical antidepressants, thanks for the recommendations. I tried a hundred different nootropics (e.g. Noopept, Sunifiram, Coluracetam, Memantine, Huperzine A, etc) but they aren't really good for mood problems.

[Flex]

Consider that I gave You the hint. You can google it if You want to be certain for You own safety

 

Edit:

Sigh.. for lurkers sake..

Is it that hard to find ?:

 

Typing in google  

 

- Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome ( DAWS)

- Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome ( DAWS) 19%

- Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome ( DAWS) denervation

 

Results in :

 

Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome: implications for patient care.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23686524

While some patients have transient symptoms and make a full recovery, others have a protracted withdrawal syndrome lasting for months to years, and therefore may be unwilling or unable to discontinue DA therapy.

 

Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome in Parkinson disease.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20065130

RESULTS:Of 40 subjects treated with a DA, 26 underwent subsequent DA taper. Of these 26 subjects, 5 (19%) developed DAWS and 21 (81%) did not.

 

Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome and non-motor symptoms after Parkinson’s disease surgery

http://brain.oxfordj...ain.awq165.full

 

Parkinsonian apathy responds to dopaminergic stimulation of D2/D3 receptors with piribedil.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23543483

Apathy is one of the most common symptoms encountered in Parkinson's disease, and is defined as a lack of motivation accompanied by reduced goal-directed cognition, behaviour and emotional involvement. In a previous study we have described a delayed withdrawal syndrome after successful motor improvement related to subthalamic stimulation allowing for a major decrease in dopaminergic treatment. This withdrawal syndrome correlated with a diffuse mesolimbic dopaminergic denervation.

 

 

Edited by Flex, 11 August 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[Flex]

Some say: it is the Hell on Earth, if Mirapex catches You once

You cant quit it. Its not like the Hard drugs. Its different !

 

No, I dont have the reference for this, because it is been long ago

but You can look out in various forums like:

http://www.socialanx...agonists-96835/

http://www.socialanx...ling-me-407953/

 

Edited by Flex, 11 August 2014 - 06:39 AM.

[Major Legend]

Alternative method would be MAO inhibition. Parnate comes to mind since it's also a dopaminergic itself.

[lammas2]

First of all, read ALL the topics and posts about pramipexole before you take your first pill.

TL;DR?

Take a low dose that would mostly agonise presynaptic autoreceptors and keep postsynaptic receptors untouched. This will probably make you feel not-so-good at first, but as the autoreceptors downregulate, magic begins to happen. Also look up low dose amisulpride, where autoreceptors are blocked using an antipsychiotic and positive effects are noticed right away. Sadly it seems that homeostasis eventually kills the benefits of amisulpride. Pramipexole should not lose it's efficiency when used this way. Remember, this is all mainly hypothetical and you will have to be a guinea pig. And the outcome also depends of the ratio of pre/postsynaptical D receptors you have before starting the therapy.

OR you could take a high dose and enjoy the wonders of a dystonical dopaminergic system (most of the wonders happen after stopping the drug).

[Area-1255]

@ OP - dopaminergics for cognitive function is a terrible idea imHo; because they act mainly on inhibitory autoreceptors and other D2 family receptors, which may have anti-depressant effects in theory.However, the bigger issue is weighing the benefits with the sides, prami tends to cause terrible nausea (did with me and many others), and Caber dropped my BP very low. Cognitive Enhancement is NOT likely on dopaminergics because as said before, they usually have affinity for only D2 family receptors and NOT D(1) or D(5) which have both Pro-Cognitive and anti-depressant effects.

 

D(2) agonism produces a trend towards GABA-ergic neurotransmission - and thus too much D(2) agonism over inhibits the CNS.

Also D(2) agonism lowers glutamate levels...but as such dopaminergics such as bromocriptine are in testing for OCD.

 

At the same time, some dopaminergics can make OCD worse - requip and prami in particular. But Caber may also help OCD as it activates both dopamine and serotonin receptors with VERY high potency.

[Flex]

Yes D2 along with a2 and D3 do controll Glutamate transmission

but dont forget the Cognitive dysfunctions caused by Parkinson or Antipsychotics with prefferable D2 antagonsim.

 

I´ve tried Risperdal and can confirm a good drop of cognition. Although the Speed of thoughts seemed faster,

 I couldnt "process" them like a OCD´ish loop.

 

D2 and Cognition:

Human cognitive flexibility depends on dopamine D2 receptor signaling.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21611724

 

It has been shown that a better Dopamine transmission in the Striatum, leads to a better "fluid" intelligence.

Se page 10/16

Ventral striatal prediction error signaling is associated with dopamine synthesis capacity and fluid intelligence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....74/#!po=9.37500

 

or the Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22344813

 

Admittely those effects are limited through e.g. Dopamine Autoreceptors

( which protects the Brain from Dopamine-excess caused oxidative damage)

 

On the other hand, too much Dopamine could cause Tourette syndrome

Neuromodulation in Tourette syndrome: Dopamine and beyond

http://www.sciencedi...149763412001716

Edited by Flex, 30 August 2014 - 02:28 PM.

[Area-1255]

Usually noradrenaline and / or glutamate are more specific to tourette's....and excess histamine as well.

Dopamine plays a very minor role.

[Flex]

Ah ok.

[Area-1255]

Ah ok.

Just think about blinking, would you get rapid blinking with CNS stims or depressants? Think, all fast action movements we make have to depend at least somewhat on CNS stimulation. Logically because of the law of kinetics and of basic life principles - therefore dopamine agonists ALONE are incapable of producing the kind of radical tics/tourette's because they DEPRESS the nervous system - but, if dopamine (and usually natural dopamine) is converting at an insane or sometimes even a moderate rate, to noradrenaline, this is when you get all the negative side-effects of dopamine.

Through noradrenaline, NOT dopamine; the possibility for all fast action movements/contractions is allowed due to stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system through beta-adrenergic and alpha1 adrenergic systems.

Now here's where histamine comes into play..the mechanism of action of H(2) receptors is remarkably similar to activating beta-receptors, except histamine is known to be a MUCH more potent cAMP stimulant than adrenaline - now since both H(1) and H(2) stimulate calcium release and noradrenaline as well - now we are looking at a more feasible cause to Tourette's.

This can also happen with MSG/Excess Glutamate.

What it really comes down to is how much rapid "fast action potential" NT's are active, and how much calcium is being released.

The more calcium channels, the greater the chance for overstimulation.

 

This then leads to contractile activity of all sorts.

 

As well as paranoia, radical behavior, impulsivity etc these are synonymous with noradrenaline,histamine,glutamate and calcium channels.

 

 

Edited by Area-1255, 30 August 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[knockout_mice]

Thanks for the useful information, guys.

 

I tried tianeptine for two weeks (3x12.5mg daily) and I think it's a great antidepressant. I would say it's happiness in a pill.

 

Now I'm taking 25mg agomelatine daily and I love its sleep normalizing effect, but the AD effect (5-HT2C receptor downregulation) haven't kicked in yet.

[Area-1255]

Thanks for the useful information, guys.

 

I tried tianeptine for two weeks (3x12.5mg daily) and I think it's a great antidepressant. I would say it's happiness in a pill.

 

Now I'm taking 25mg agomelatine daily and I love its sleep normalizing effect, but the AD effect (5-HT2C receptor downregulation) haven't kicked in yet.

Pramipexole and Bromo can cause terrible nausea btw...trust me I've tried em. 

Take them with an anti-nausea drug if you do try em at all.

NOT an anti dopamine anti nausea..anti serotonin (odansetron etc)

Or ginger extract 3x / day.

Edited by Area-1255, 13 September 2014 - 05:44 PM.

[knockout_mice]

Tianeptine and agomelatine are atypical antidepressants, but not dopamine agonists.

[medievil]

Dopamine agonists have in human studies failed to show consistent antidepressive effect but they MAY be effective as adjunct treatments.

Ketamine is an awful idea. Unless you can get medical grade stuff and it isn't actually any more effective than SSRI's with a 60% effectivness rate. Also oral trials haven't been performed and so far only intramuscular trials have been successful. The effects don't last for that long a month at most. More importantly there is hardly an research supporting it in human trials.

If you don't want SSRI antidepressant side effects, why don't you take a different type of antidepressant??? Mirtazapine, Trazadone, Tianeptine, Wellbutrin, Moclobremide, Reboxetine, Agomelatine and Viloxazine are all non-ssri options with reasonable side effects.

If you want to try some unevidence based supplemental treatment then you could always use CDP-Choline, L-Tryptophan, a multi-vitamine, Sulbutramine, Noopept, etc...

Keating shit? it has a 90% success rate I'm and while not been studied in low oral doses, anecdotes show the same success rate with a daily low dose of keratin or methoxetamine.

"If you don't want SSRI antidepressant side effects, why don't you take a different type of antidepressant??? Mirtazapine, Trazadone, Tianeptine, Wellbutrin, Moclobremide, Reboxetine, Agomelatine and Viloxazine are all non-ssri options with reasonable side effects."

All that crap is extremely weak, wellbutrin is a joke of a stim, it's like kiddy champagne compared to wodca, mirtazepine causes apathy and an anhedonia and turns you into a zombie, it is good for melancholic depression I suppose as its antagonises 5ht2a but it still really weak shit, anecdotes show that reboxetine is something awefull to take and the drug company selectively showed study while the evidence shows its actually harmful for depression.

LOL saying that the effect of ketamine doesn't last long, it lasts a week, the effects of pretty much all antidepressants only last a day while they are in your system.

Pramipexole has extremely interesting evidence behind it but it does cause a 20% of all Parkinson patients to be gambling addicts, I've read an anecdote of a 60 year old suddenly liking anal sex, I would actually say that's a good thing, he's wife may hate it but rub some lidocaine cream on your dick ram it in and you get an incredible sensation I did that, the da agonist making you extremely dirty is a extremely good effect if you ask me, funding someone's as in a extremely dirty way is fucking great, ppl having boring normal sex need to experience that, it's pure win.

I only combined roping role with amphetamine, it balances out the selective dominance of d3 agonism, counteracting the gambling addiction risk with is caused by some selective impairment of da transmission while the combo makes you fuck like a pornstar , that's a 100% win.

[medievil]

"others have a protracted withdrawal syndrome lasting for months to years"

Not at all, only one guy kept going on about days but he triggered shizoprenia, anything can trigger schizophrenia extreme stress by your mum can trigger it, that doesn't mean that mums cause year long withdrawal symptoms if they get angry at you.

Da agonist withdrawal is extremely mild and lats 2 weeks max.

Not this again...

Google G4D and Pramipexole.

Yeah the guy triggered shizophrenia, eating too much McDonald's can trigger it, that doesn't mean eating McDonald's daily for ages causes sever withdrawals.

You need risk genes before you can trigger it but once you have those really everything can trigger it.

Edited by medievil, 13 September 2014 - 08:22 PM.

[medievil]

At the same time, some dopaminergics can make OCD worse

If you relate to shizoprenia amphetamine can be the cure for social anxiety and ocd, like in my case, if you don't they make it worse and Benzos name usually the most effective for sa, and anti glutaminergics for ocd.

[Flex]

Da agonist withdrawal is extremely mild and lats 2 weeks max.

 

But not for 19% of the people who develop DAWS