707 replies to this topic

[Jochen]

tagsync might be an option too, but i rather use it in a meditative setting. very interested in what results you'll be getting. do you do the whole brain plan and HEG too?

 

noticed I did not reply to your final questions.

 

I am doing HEG (life game atm) as well ... 3 days per week is my current schedule.

 

I will be doing the whole brain plan, but at a later stage. First want to dabble in Douglas's protocols.

[VastEmptiness]

I like the sound of this @airplanpeanuts.  @Crowstream do you know if in BioExplorer you could use an mp3 such that you have the left mp3 channel volume respond to Alpha say and the right mp3 respond to Theta ?  

 

 

@Bobity

I know the tone generator has the option of left and right (dont know if it works or not), but the mp3 for some reason does not, that would have been a cool feature  . From what I have seen it does not seem like Bioexplorer is being developed much anymore, I havent seen any updates to fix things like that...

 

A workaround here is to edit the mp3 and cut out either one of the stereo channels with a tool like Audacity. A good way would be to have the same mp3 twice playing isolated on left and right. You're automaticly trying to get them to the same volume because it sounds weird to have one of the speakers at lower volume I utilize the two ears more and more, will probably even go for 3D-placements of sounds (virtually), because i believe from experience that precise rewards are much more effective. It has became a standard for me in my protocols to use a lower threshold Phase Reset on the left ear and a harder one on the right ear, which I use as guidance left and goal right. Can highly recommend this splitting.

Also I'd like to get more into visual feedback. Does anybody know if Bioexplorer can output MIDI signals that i could use to control (physical) lights? There is alot of objects I have no idea about like one called "Tactical feedback"? I'd like to get a massage as a reward or an electric shock as inhibit

Edited by VastEmptiness, 10 June 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[Eratosthenes]

Hi all,

This thread has inspired me. Particularly, OpaqueMind’s self-described transformation from serious dysfunction to joyful, cogent and spiritual consciousness. (Opaque, you need to change your name since it really doesn’t fit you any more, maybe TranslucentMind   instead?) And more generally the quality of the discussion here and the thoughtfulness of the participants reflects well on TAGSync. (Either because TAGSync makes people smarter, more thoughtful and articulate or because TAGSync attracts people with these qualities [and then hopefully amplifies them].) I judge technologies of human change and spiritual approaches by the people who promote and practice them and TAGSync does well on this score, given the severe limitation of only having text on a screen to go by as opposed to the richness in body language and voice.

The reason this thread resonated with me is that I am starting off in a similar place as Opaque did, with very poor sleep quality and also some depression/ low energy and cognitive slowing. Through observation and experimentation I believe poor sleep is at the root of my problems because on the very rare occasions when I am able to get a good night’s sleep pretty much all of my problems are gone or at least very substantially improved. I also have a long standing interest in spirituality and have meditated on and off for a number of years.

I purchased a Q-Wiz package from brain-trainer.com and also TAGSync from Douglas Dailey. I have been doing only HEG Life training for the past few weeks and am ready to start the EEG training.

My first question is about sequencing/combining TAG with the Brain-Trainer approach. Is it better to do TAGSync first and then Brain-Trainer, or BT first then TAG, or do them both at the same time? I asked both Douglas and Pete this question but neither has first hand experience combining the two so I’d like to ask those of you who have that experience what would you recommend?

 

 

I think that anyone looking to start doing nfb should not under estimate the enormous amount of stuff you need to learn to do this.

 

I qualify this with the fact that I've bought  TAGsync, HEG, TLC7ap,  a CAP,  Brain Trainer designs... so there is a lot of completely new material here to get to know.

 

Yes I definitely feel this way. It’s easy to feel overwhelmed. In fact, I actually bought my equipment at the end of last year but lacked the time/energy to truly learn to use it and then actually do so until the past few weeks.
 

 

Well that's it for now, but why don't we schedule a hangout which we can record etc so we can all learn from each other a bit more dynamically :-).

 

 

I’d also like to do a hangout.

 

[Jochen]

about the wiki topic.

 

I have asked Douglas and he is completely in favour of us creating such a thing.

In the meantime I have asked an admin (Caliban) if it would be possible to host a wiki on the longecity forum.

 

As a temporary start, I have just created the https://slimwiki.com/tagsync. Please bare with me as I still need to set things up.

If anyone wants to contribute, let me know and we can get together (or I can give you rights, not sure how it all works yet to be honest).

 

Might not have too much time over the weekend to work on it, but I will pick it up for sure next week :-)

[Jochen]

If you go back the last couple of pages i tried to explain how the TAGsync design works and also gave information on bands that i train with successfully. There isn't one x4 design, they're all custom made, so no idea how exactly that one is that you're using. The only relevant reward is the Phase Reset (chime bell), anything may be added value (I tend to add quite alot, but i'm still experimenting alot). From my experience hooking up several bands together (I'm doing 5 right now) has a stronger effect than just 2.

I used this soundscape:  in addition to the HoloSync (rainish) binaural beats to good effect. But really any that you like should do good (Look for if they contain binaural beats, you don't want several at once or some weird frequency). Right now i either use my own brainwaves as a melody (constant piano feedback) or meditate in silence which I start to like more and more as I get better at controlling breath etc.

 

I tend to do one hour EC if i don't have an appointment. Sometimes more, up to 1:30. Most intense sensations seem to occur around 20-40 minutes, so any amount is beneficial. I like to give it some 10 or 20 minutes afterwards doing EO, rewarding gamma coherence and gamma phase resets for added transferability to everyday life. Gamma COH goes flying usually, which I like to see.

 

interesting aspect of the brainwaves as audio feedback. Will look into that as well.

 

I bounced this question of on crowstream, but what do you think the impact of binaural beats would be on the effectiveness of the NF session?

 

Assuming somebody responds to NB, do you think that training Alpha and having Alpha BB, 1) slows down the learning or 2) speeds up the learning.

 

It might be more of a theoretical discussion of course. Not sure.

 

My gut tells me it might slow down the learning in a way as your brain is being put in the state by the BB. On the other hand it can be argued that it facilitates the learning because the state is there and you and your brain are being rewarded for it.

 

So maybe slows down the learning for people that are already capable to reach certain states, and it might accelerate or give the initial push for people that have trouble getting started / reaching those states?

 

What I will test however is the effect of BB and see if Bioexplorer picks up the different states I am entraining myself in.

Will do these little experiments next week :-).

[hza]

My first question is about sequencing/combining TAG with the Brain-Trainer approach. Is it better to do TAGSync first and then Brain-Trainer, or BT first then TAG, or do them both at the same time? I asked both Douglas and Pete this question but neither has first hand experience combining the two so I’d like to ask those of you who have that experience what would you recommend?

 

 

There was a time when I would have advised you to run through your B-T protocols for a few cycles to "clean up" a little bit before tackling TAG, but lately I suspect it doesn't make much difference in the long run as they really seem to work in very different ways.  You might find it of benefit to do a little B-T first just to get used to using your equipment (I still think their designs are a lot more user-friendly to the beginner, plus there are lots of videos and very responsive support to get you started), but ultimately I doubt there's a "better" way to approach what order you train.  

 

The other thing is, now that you have your own equipment and a B-T design subscription on top of the TAG designs, you'll probably never reach a point when you're "done" training with either, or likely not for several years to come.  That being the case, it seems to me your best bet is to play around with an alternating schedule--you may even find you can train with both on any given day--using one method for a while, and then switching to the other one for a day/few days/months whatever.  If you got the TLC7ap and e-cap then you'll always be able to generate new plans for future training there; and from what I gather, it will be a long time before you exhaust all the benefits from TAG training.  

[Diego55]

I would like to know, if it is possible to connect Peanut nIR HEG system to Bioexplorer ? I have tried it, but after I select "Carmen HEG on USB" and click on ADD, there is still status "connecting..." and after several minutes nothing has happened (i also tried different usb ports). And after i click on "properties" nothing has displayed.  

[Jochen]

I would like to know, if it is possible to connect Peanut nIR HEG system to Bioexplorer ? I have tried it, but after I select "Carmen HEG on USB" and click on ADD, there is still status "connecting..." and after several minutes nothing has happened (i also tried different usb ports). And after i click on "properties" nothing has displayed.  

 

I have this issue sometimes as well with the electro-cap.

What helps for me is when I have bio-explorer open and then connect the Q-Wiz.

 

Or as the IT-crowd says: "Have you tried turning it off and on again?".

 

Meaning, if you have bio-explorer open and it says connecting, disconnect the USB cable of the Q-WIZ, wait a few seconds and then connect the USB again.

This typically does the trick for me.

 

just a precautionary question from my side: you did install the peanut driver right? (and ideally the last firmware, I have the 20140404_bet version).

[Jochen]

probably will change the wiki, as although the layout of slimwiki is crisp, it does not really allow for public pages (everyone still needs to register).

 

does anyone have a good recommendation of a wiki which is available publicly and has a simple UI/Editor?

 

At the moment I am testing out shoutwiki.

[Diego55]

but i do not have any Q-Wiz amplifier, I only bought the Peanut nIR HEG with headband from B-T site and later, I managed to borrow Bioexplorer HASP and PN Pendant eeg from a friend.

 

[DonManley]

What about good old github? It has wiki, which can be publicly viewed. It seems that you can set there permissions that will allow everybody with a github account to edit / add pages or, if you want, only those people who you add to collaborators. It has on online browser editor. Wiki itself is an repo, so it supports all usual features of repos like version control. In the future, potentially wiki could be extended to support more features by hosting it on github pages, where you can host any HTML/JS/CSS you want. I think here is example of a site hosted on Github pages: http://jekyllrb.com/docs/github-pages/. And with github pages, you can even use your own (any) domain name there.

 

Github also will be familiar to most coders out there and if you will use github wiki, I suggest writing pages in markdown.

 

probably will change the wiki, as although the layout of slimwiki is crisp, it does not really allow for public pages (everyone still needs to register).

 

does anyone have a good recommendation of a wiki which is available publicly and has a simple UI/Editor?

 

At the moment I am testing out shoutwiki.

 

[Jochen]

 

What about good old github? It has wiki, which can be publicly viewed. It seems that you can set there permissions that will allow everybody with a github account to edit / add pages or, if you want, only those people who you add to collaborators. It has on online browser editor. Wiki itself is an repo, so it supports all usual features of repos like version control. In the future, potentially wiki could be extended to support more features by hosting it on github pages, where you can host any HTML/JS/CSS you want. I think here is example of a site hosted on Github pages: http://jekyllrb.com/docs/github-pages/. And with github pages, you can even use your own (any) domain name there.

 

Github also will be familiar to most coders out there and if you will use github wiki, I suggest writing pages in markdown.

 

I actually use github, but I was / am afraid it would be too bothersome for most.

 

It's a good idea, will playtest a few things and then let you guys know.
 

[Jochen]

but i do not have any Q-Wiz amplifier, I only bought the Peanut nIR HEG with headband from B-T site and later, I managed to borrow Bioexplorer HASP and PN Pendant eeg from a friend.

 

Then I am afraid I can't help you.

 

My previous points still remain the same. Make sure drivers and dongle software are installed. and when you launch bio-explorer, unplug -until you have the <no port> message and then connect it again.

maybe you also need to configure the peanut connection specifically? 

 

Other people might be able to chip in, as the above 'advice' is all I have to offer I am afraid.

 

good luck in getting it working!

[Jochen]

new test: http://tagsync.shout.../wiki/Main_Page

 

uses 'wikicode', not as nice as the slimwiki, but it'll do for our purposes :-).

 

Will be migrating everything I had on slimwiki and move it to this page.

 

If people really insist I can move to github. Markdown and wikicode are fairly similar anyhow.

[VastEmptiness]

Welcome on board Eratosthenes and thanks for the flowers. About the intelligence etc; i guess something like using neurosciences to alter your brain caters to specific groups. However, I can see definitely strong improvements in cognition (or more so even intelligence itself, amount of data available to me at the same time) lately and I link them to both tagsync, multiband coherence and gamma coherence training. i've built a gamma protocol that rewards gamma phase resets across 4 channels and i can get basicly now 4x in coherence to where i started some months ago on the midline. the effects of this are drastic, i will write some more on this soon.
 

My first question is about sequencing/combining TAG with the Brain-Trainer approach. Is it better to do TAGSync first and then Brain-Trainer, or BT first then TAG, or do them both at the same time? I asked both Douglas and Pete this question but neither has first hand experience combining the two so I’d like to ask those of you who have that experience what would you recommend?

 

Does your Whole Brain plan include T/A training? Peter uses it to integrate traumatic experience and will usually have it on day 5. It's an excellent protocol as well and very quick to integrate traumatic material that may come up alongside training. However I found TAGsync to be preferable since it will do the same thing but also come with all the benefits of itself. It also makes sense to train TAGsync on all sites that he gave you Coherence-Trainings for and use the frequencies he advised. However also use and/or try the original protocols. They're very good on themselves. The more I got into Peter's system the more I can trust into it because it covers ALOT of shit in his selections of protocols. Use it as a guidance.

 

Other than that; TAGsync serves me to integrate difficult emotions whenever they come up or when I just feel like meditating. I had the impression that it might increase Neuroplasticity/Long Term Potentiation so it might be smart to start a training cycle with TAGsync. Specifically If you're training coherence afterwards (Gamma Scores are insane right now).

 

Advice on the Brain-Trainer Whole Brain Training

 

1) Train often and little

2) Train like 10 minutes with each protocol; if it has a time limit set to like 2 minutes, train short and see how you feel. Some protocols can really tire your brain.

3) Do a diary after each protocol and record how you feel throughout the day; good chances you will soon find what each protocol does for you specifically. This way I for example have sites where I can target depression directly. Whenever I feel depressed I can train that down with almost 100% chance now.

4) Don't mind If you don't see a change on quantifiable results every time. For example If you train down slow activity that might tire your brain because it has to run faster now; so it will show the same or even more slow activity. However it built muscle that it's eventually will start to use after it had some rest.

5) Write down if you get what Peter calls "disruptions in the energetic patterns of the brain". That is, you will have points where there is a definite change in the way your brain functions. We are destabilising old patterns with training and at some point the brain will self-organize into a new pattern. When you put those into your diary you might recognize patterns how you got there too and emphasize if you like the effect. I btw. don't think anymore that Neurofeedback is mere operant conditioning, however it seems to be part of the process.

 

 

 

Assuming somebody responds to NB, do you think that training Alpha and having Alpha BB, 1) slows down the learning or 2) speeds up the learning.

 

 

 

My take on this (all just from experience really) is that:

 

1) I'm getting amazing results using all the help I can get that includes binaural beats. n=1 and cannot compare to doing it without. Binaural beats on it's own can have a very strong effect themselves (I train HoloSync with TAGsync).

 

2) When we take the notion of neuroplasticity then either a binaural beat or a feedback will set you in the wanted state and therefore shape the brain in the way you want it to be shaped which in the case of TAGsync allows for the access to meditative states. I was wondering myself If i could meditate without feedback at all still only to find out that it's easier then ever and pretty much of the same intensity as TAGsync itself only after a few months of training. No integration needed for me so far; looking forward to do a meditation retreat without gear sometime soon and find out in a more serious scenario, though.

For other more unconscious skills like uptrainining Gamma Coherence, I'm looking for the changes in wiring solely and if the Binaural Beat helps me to focus on Gamma or increase it's amplitude thats very welcome. If not, no harm done. Peter uses Binaural Beats in almost all of his protocols and I really see no disadvantage.

 

3) There is the same discussion about HEG training. Whether we should push ourselves or retain a relaxed focus. I think it really depends on what you want to do: If I want to build up blood cells, pushing etc. whatever gets blood in there. If you want to learn a relaxed focus, of course that comes along with some restrictions. However then you're really doing more like an implicit SMR training or something and not primarily building up bloodcells. Interesting here for me is the use of coffee or nootropics: The morning is the only hard part for me in any day and training HEG before a coffee is definitly MUCH harder. However I feel like i with that uptrain myself a certain independence of coffee, so what I do is I cycle from time to time. HEG with coffee for building blood cells and HEG without coffee to turn on my brain without the drug. Think of it as sport with doping and then getting of the doping because they'll test in the competition, but trying to keep the gains.

 

but i do not have any Q-Wiz amplifier, I only bought the Peanut nIR HEG with headband from B-T site and later, I managed to borrow Bioexplorer HASP and PN Pendant eeg from a friend.

talk to B-T support, they're excellent. pretty sure bioexplorer has the support for peanut, they have all kinds of devices in the drop down menu.

[Jochen]

I have just started reading one of Douglas's recommended readings: <Neurotherapy and Neurofeedback: Brain-Based treatment for psychological and behavioral problems> by TJ and LA Chapin.

 

They actually mention the benefit of combining BA with NF. Will post the studies once I have found them online.

 

Another recommendation from their side is to have people to some kind of biofeedback session like HRV to prime the brain prior to a NF session.

[Bobity]

Having got everything setup on my laptop I had a hard disk failure so I had to get a new disk.  Fortunately I automatically back it up each week with Acronis and so I was able to recover it all with only the loss of a couple of days’ data.   

 

I've found it pretty tough going doing all this initially and I’ve found TAGsync very difficult at first mainly since I was not able to make much impact on my levels of Beta.

This lead to a bit of a downer re Beta – my brain lights up with loads of Beta any time I close my eyes - & I did not seem to be able to do anything about it in TAGsync.  I mentioned this to both Karen on the sesh I had with her last week, & Douglas with whom  I had a sesh on Saturday.  Karen said the amount of Beta I’ve got in my head would take some time to shift and Douglas said my brain is wasting energy running all of that and that and my unconscious is more than capable of finding whatever I need without it.  I've been adjusting the inhibit thresholds so that I'm not innundated all the time with noise.  Douglas suggested making a plot of Inhibit thresholds so that I can plot my progress - I find it sometimes helps having an objective measure of how I'm doing.   

 

For various reasons it took me ‘till Sunday to do some sessions with the CAP. I discovered that I can use design TLC7 Assess Pro Gather 4C.bxd to check out all of the CAP connections by starting recording and stepping through the WIZ Multiplexer from Step1 though Step5 and visually examine the signals the design is getting for each set of points.  This made me feel much better about it.  I’m still not fully clear about what I’m supposed to be trying to do in the FRE4C squishes,  but I seem to be scoring points consistently so I suppose I’m doing all right.  

 

I set up my old Toshiba Notebook to run BioExplorer and today I took it the Q-Wiz, paste and electrodes on the train - There did not seem very much interference – I half expected BioExplorer/Q-Wiz might go mad but it was fine.  This means I can use my time in the morning on the train to train with TAGsync which is great.  The train is not busy the time I travel – I catch a very early one so there is always plenty of free seats & space.  This first train sesh was pretty good and I got the Beta fairly quiet which pleased me no end - except the Notebook crashed at some point.  Felt grounded, happy and strong all day at work - this is definitely the start of a big adventure. 

 

[airplanepeanuts]

 

 

I set up my old Toshiba Notebook to run BioExplorer and today I took it the Q-Wiz, paste and electrodes on the train 

How do you deal with the remnants of the paste in your hair?

[open-it]

I found a good deal on an OpenBCI kit and want to start doing neurofeedback.  Q-Wiz is way too expensive and OpenBCI has more channels and I believe the resolution is as good.  The problem for TagSync is that it is not compatible with BioExplorer, it is compatible with Brainbay(open source) and BioEra(used by professionals).  Is there anyway I'm going to be able to do tagsync with an OpenBCI board or will I have to do other forms of neurofeedback?  It seems like the hardware is capable but there is not enough software support.  Maybe BioExplorer will eventually release drivers?  It looks like the BioEra developer didn't have many problems with it.  http://openbci.com/f...imer-adjustment

 

Anyways some guidance would be very valuable to me.  Doesn't look like anyone has done TAGSync with OpenBCI yet(haven't seen anything) so I know I could be asking a lot.  I know hardly anything about programming but maybe I could hack something together with some time.

Edited by open-it, 16 June 2015 - 12:18 AM.

[Bobity]

 

 

 

I set up my old Toshiba Notebook to run BioExplorer and today I took it the Q-Wiz, paste and electrodes on the train 

How do you deal with the remnants of the paste in your hair?

 

 

I'm fairly bald @airplanpeanuts so the paste just wipes off with a tissue.

[Crowstream]

@Bobity

 

Sounds similar to my EEG patterns when I started, I had a lot of beta activity that was triggering the inhibits. I think sometimes I did see a shift within a session, when I used breathing techniques to shift state...most often though I think you will notice changes over several sessions of training. I think the brain can make nonlinear shifts where it changes its energetic patterns. After some weeks of training I noticed that I was producing a lot less beta and a lot more alpha. Now when I am doing my sessions I can maintain pretty much constantly strong theta and alpha, and the frequency band that lights up has been growing over time so now it covers a wider spectrum (went from maybe 9-11hz alpha being strong and now its like 7-12Hz or something like that. That change in the EEG has been associated with deeper and easier access to meditative states for me so I think it also has experiental correlates.

 

I think if the inhibits trigger too frequently then it can be a hindrance to training as the sessions become too annoying... I think the sessions are best when you feel relaxed and can go into meditation and that is hard with constantly triggering inhibits. I think the way Douglas is running these sessions is that he will be adjusting the feedbacks while the other person is training, I think I asked him about it and he said he did not let the inhibits trigger too much because it would annoy the client so I think it is alright to adjust them to fit you. Just make sure that when you adjust them, you set the higher frequencies to have the lowest inhibit level, and the lower frequencies to have the highest level. Personally I became a bit annoyed by those inhibit sounds so right now I am usually training with the sound off on them, they are still active because I dont get a reward when they are triggered but I dont get the annoying sound, seems to work but maybe I am missing the feedback from them, dont know exactly, but I think it is something you can experiment with to see what works.

 

Also about the noise, I think you can train even with noise in the signal, usually noise will be in different frequencies then theta or alpha... noise from electronics will be around 50hz or 60hz (depending on what power system your country uses, it is 50hz for me in Sweden). You never train those frequencies anyway so I dont think it matters, unless you like to watch the raw signal. There can be noise in delta from eye movements for example but I find theta and alpha are rarely effected so I think the training is quite portable and electrodes dont need to be set up perfectly (of course it is better with a perfect setup, but not always practical).

[Jochen]

I found a good deal on an OpenBCI kit and want to start doing neurofeedback.  Q-Wiz is way too expensive and OpenBCI has more channels and I believe the resolution is as good.  The problem for TagSync is that it is not compatible with BioExplorer, it is compatible with Brainbay(open source) and BioEra(used by professionals).  Is there anyway I'm going to be able to do tagsync with an OpenBCI board or will I have to do other forms of neurofeedback?  It seems like the hardware is capable but there is not enough software support.  Maybe BioExplorer will eventually release drivers?  It looks like the BioEra developer didn't have many problems with it.  http://openbci.com/f...imer-adjustment

 

Anyways some guidance would be very valuable to me.  Doesn't look like anyone has done TAGSync with OpenBCI yet(haven't seen anything) so I know I could be asking a lot.  I know hardly anything about programming but maybe I could hack something together with some time.

 

would suggest you reach out to Douglas Dailey: http://www.mindsuppl...com/contact.htm

 

His protocol is available for 3 EEG software packages: http://www.mindsupplies.com/store.htm

 

Maybe there is an opportunity that it becomes available for BioEra / Brainbay?

Edited by Jochen, 16 June 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[VastEmptiness]

I found a good deal on an OpenBCI kit and want to start doing neurofeedback.  Q-Wiz is way too expensive and OpenBCI has more channels and I believe the resolution is as good.  The problem for TagSync is that it is not compatible with BioExplorer, it is compatible with Brainbay(open source) and BioEra(used by professionals).  Is there anyway I'm going to be able to do tagsync with an OpenBCI board or will I have to do other forms of neurofeedback?  It seems like the hardware is capable but there is not enough software support.  Maybe BioExplorer will eventually release drivers?  It looks like the BioEra developer didn't have many problems with it.  http://openbci.com/f...imer-adjustment

 

Anyways some guidance would be very valuable to me.  Doesn't look like anyone has done TAGSync with OpenBCI yet(haven't seen anything) so I know I could be asking a lot.  I know hardly anything about programming but maybe I could hack something together with some time.

 

the main element of the tag sync protocol which is the phase-reset-reward should be reproducible easily in any of those softwares as it's really just rewarding two spikes in amplitude at the same time. in bioexplorer it would take less then 2 minutes to set that up. other than that i'd follow jochen's suggestion.

[Bobity]

@Bobity

 

Sounds similar to my EEG patterns when I started, I had a lot of beta activity that was triggering the inhibits. I think sometimes I did see a shift within a session, when I used breathing techniques to shift state...most often though I think you will notice changes over several sessions of training. I think the brain can make nonlinear shifts where it changes its energetic patterns. After some weeks of training I noticed that I was producing a lot less beta and a lot more alpha. Now when I am doing my sessions I can maintain pretty much constantly strong theta and alpha, and the frequency band that lights up has been growing over time so now it covers a wider spectrum (went from maybe 9-11hz alpha being strong and now its like 7-12Hz or something like that. That change in the EEG has been associated with deeper and easier access to meditative states for me so I think it also has experiental correlates.

 

I think if the inhibits trigger too frequently then it can be a hindrance to training as the sessions become too annoying... I think the sessions are best when you feel relaxed and can go into meditation and that is hard with constantly triggering inhibits. I think the way Douglas is running these sessions is that he will be adjusting the feedbacks while the other person is training, I think I asked him about it and he said he did not let the inhibits trigger too much because it would annoy the client so I think it is alright to adjust them to fit you. Just make sure that when you adjust them, you set the higher frequencies to have the lowest inhibit level, and the lower frequencies to have the highest level. Personally I became a bit annoyed by those inhibit sounds so right now I am usually training with the sound off on them, they are still active because I dont get a reward when they are triggered but I dont get the annoying sound, seems to work but maybe I am missing the feedback from them, dont know exactly, but I think it is something you can experiment with to see what works.

 

Also about the noise, I think you can train even with noise in the signal, usually noise will be in different frequencies then theta or alpha... noise from electronics will be around 50hz or 60hz (depending on what power system your country uses, it is 50hz for me in Sweden). You never train those frequencies anyway so I dont think it matters, unless you like to watch the raw signal. There can be noise in delta from eye movements for example but I find theta and alpha are rarely effected so I think the training is quite portable and electrodes dont need to be set up perfectly (of course it is better with a perfect setup, but not always practical).

 

 

[Bobity]

"Sounds similar to my EEG patterns when I started, I had a lot of beta activity that was triggering the inhibits. I think sometimes I did see a shift within a session, when I used breathing techniques to shift state...most often though I think you will notice changes over several sessions of training."

 

Thanks for this @Crowstream its very encouraging to hear - it can seem momentus sometimes.  Having played a little with the inhibit thresholds I found many extending periods of silence on the train this morning and can see a way forwards with this now.  The inner geek wonders if there is an exit to BioExplorer so that I can code a virtual Douglas to adjust the thresholds for me according to what is going on...

 

"Just make sure that when you adjust them, you set the higher frequencies to have the lowest inhibit level, and the lower frequencies to have the highest level" 

 

I'll bear this in mind in my fiddling.

 

"Now when I am doing my sessions I can maintain pretty much constantly strong theta and alpha, and the frequency band that lights up has been growing over time so now it covers a wider spectrum (went from maybe 9-11hz alpha being strong and now its like 7-12Hz or something like that. That change in the EEG has been associated with deeper and easier access to meditative states for me so I think it also has experiental correlates."

 

Thats quite a transformation if your beta is anything like mine.  I'm feeling quietly excited by what may unfold.

 

I've also been really enjoying following the Brain_Trainer Autoplan especially "Con4C Gamma Sync" which Karen tells me is something similar to TAGsync and is quite trippy.

         

[Matty72]

If you got the TAG x1 and x2 bundle, you should have gotten a free copy of his Bipolar Protocol Guide.  But if he forgot to send you the link, that happens (happened to me), and you should email him for your copy.  It will help answer some of your questions, although it doesn't explicitly address the TAG x1 design with dual rewards.  I think you can work TAG x1 with a single set of rewards by setting one set of thresholds to zero, but if you have a single-channel SMR design from anywhere else that would probably be easier, or you can just work two sets of rewards and inhibits like 1 channel of ILF and 1 channel SMR, or Alpha/Theta, or I guess theoretically whatever.  But the ILF protocol guide is essential reading imo if you want to do bipolar training.

 

 

 

I've had this thread permanently open and it's lead to me consuming as much information as I possibly can on ILF training, which is pretty much limited to Othmers and Mark Llewellyn-Smith and his infra slow training. So I'd appreciate any observations and advice from those that have been self training ILF.

 

On the above I'm taking it that what is being said is that we can  train ILF using a non TagSync protocol. At least I hope so as I gave it a shot yesterday using SMR1C from BT. It's the first time I've gone 'off piste' with my training, I've had over 3 weeks of the BT designs and completed over 3 circuits but except for some beta-SMR I've pretty much just trained the plan and certainly not gone messing around with the filters. So I was a bit wary, I took Crowstreams advice and changed the bandpass filter for SMR reward to 0.001-0.2Hz.

 

Following this thread there was a view that Bioexplorer might not be able to reliably train low frequencies but the last word seem to come from Crowstream who said that it was possible with the caveat that you cannot drop the upper band below 0.2Hz. I was just wondering how this impacts the attempt to hit the 'sweet spot' that the Othmers talk about, I think once again Crowstream mentioned lowering the frequency in session to try to hit it, but with the upper limit fixed does this achieve much? I'd be interested to know if anyone has done this during a session and suddenly had that state shift associated with hitting it on the dolly.

 

Anyway getting back to my attempt yesterday I have no real idea if it achieved anything or not, I trained T3-T4 and had BX shadow in operation and just kind of watched the instrument screen with no other feedback, after a while my attention turned to the oscillator and then it dawned on me that 'SMR'....which of course it wasn't anymore.....was now a slow  wave(& yes doesn't it look different ) and I remembered reading Siegfried Othmer talking about just watching the ILF waveform at the start and just the observing of it acted as a mirror and a state shift occurred....so I just watched it and it's strange but as I attended to it the wave seemed to change form to a more rounded shape and every now and then as my attention went somewhere else and I remembered to bring it back the form seemed to have straightened out somewhat and as I watched it would then start to take on more of a curve again. The session is 5 minutes and after about 3 minutes I started to feel sleepy, which doesn't usually happen, and I just kept hitting play at the end and trained for 25 minutes, and continued to feel sleepy but it was a nice feeling.....hence why I kept training.

 

I thought that this might indicate that something was happening but the thought did occur to me at the end that there are inhibits in place for 3-11Hz and 19-38Hz and perhaps just my brain working to reduce these across T3-T4 might have accounted for this. I've only got one training block across those sites, it's actually a 2 channel bipolar on C3-C4 and T3-T4, for SMR, so not a great deal to refer to in that regard.

 

And of course the other thing that occurred to me was that I don't have silver  electrodes, so perhaps even more so that any effects weren't really from the ultra low frequencies. I have no idea if using standard electrodes, or in my case Electro-cap, means that you're pretty much guaranteed not to be training successfully in this range or whether it's merely not optimal.

 

Any thoughts on these points would be greatly appreciated.

 

Also is everyone that is training ILF with TagSync using silver electrodes? And will the silver cup electrodes available at Brain-Trainer do the job?

 

OpaqueMind posted something a while ago about having watched a video of a US military person why had ILF NF for PTSD, and actually that video was my final 'convincer' to enter into this world, the change in Staff Sergeant Roberts was amazing and it was only 10 sessions I think. I had no idea the time about different protocols so it was  interesting to see that this was ILF.

 

The Othmers talk about ILF 'targeting the foundations of our regulatory hierarchy and back to the early stages of our developmental trajectory', and it seems as if it can really impact our deeper arousal and regulation systems and this is why I'm interested.

 

As well as experiencing a fairly tempestuous childhood, violence, anger, aggression a regular staple,  I also picked up some kind of virus in my early 20s that just halted me in my tracks and has taken 20 years to recover from, and I'm not quite there yet. I think to use the vernacular my already insulted brain had a further insult which pushed it way over into an area of gross dysregulation. On one hand a revved up fight-flight response, explosions of anger as an example, but also an overactive parasympathetic response of disconnect, apathy, low energy. I read an analogy somewhere describing this kind of thing like trying to drive a car with both the accelerator and brake pedal hard down at the same time, and from reading Sebern Fisher's NF in the treatment of Developmental Trauma she says that both sympathetic and parasympathetic systems can be 'tapped out' from being in overdrive and the individual can be held in a suspension of the nervous system where the only option we have is the freeze response (certainly as children) which manifests as dissociation......a big tick there

 

Whilst having less than optimum cognitive functioning (focus, distraction etc) and emotional triggers, my biggest issue is physical but coming from a whacked out nervous system. From early childhood I experienced very cold hands and feet along with excessive sweating, which are symptoms to HPA dysregulation, after contracting the virus I just entered an extremely low energy state which had an almost exact correlation with chronic muscular tension. If the muscles release tension, then energy (& mood/ productivity) increase, slowly over the years I've chipped away at the underlying causes and the physical tension has lessened  my feeling is that ILF training would probably be the thing best suited to resolving this.

 

I guess there's an argument that all roads lead to Rome with NF, but having been a non responder to a whole heap of things over the past 20 years, I'm pretty keen to give myself the best chance of getting the results I want by hopefully putting the best structure in place. I think OM talked of ILF and perhaps SMR as well as putting in the walls of the house before adding in the roof, which is TAG, (with perhaps up/down training occupying some middle ground).

 

I actually found an Othmer trained ILF company here in London and spoke to the guy there, what attracted me was that they said that there's scope to have some sessions and if they think you're up to it, to then rent the equipment (I'm guessing Cygnet software and NeuroAmp)  and in the spirit of this thread I did think I could maybe train every day for a month if I did that! He said that he'd only had one person previously home train, it was a strange conversation really, I explained that I was training myself, because I didn't want a NF for Dummies type of explanation but I don't know if it put him on the back foot but he really struggled to explain areas where ILF might be more productive than higher frequency training and he kept referencing ADHD and Autism children that he had training, which was obviously of little interest to me, although interestingly he did mention one woman who'd had over 100 sessions......not sure that was encouraging. Anyway we chatted for a bit and I asked him about his experience with NF and then he casually dropped in how he 'trained with Jim Hardt at the Biocybernaut Institute', which stopped me pretty quickly and I asked him how that was, expecting a really effusive response about how mind blowing it was and he said 'Well I've earned more money since doing it and branched out on my own which I've always wanted to do' which was a little underwhelming but some times I forget that being outwardly underwhelmed is a pretty culturally ingrained thing for many of us in this country and inside people can be reverberating with excitement and passion.

 

I'm pretty keen to add in ILF training ASAP and in time Tagx2, but I'm just not sure at the moment whether to try and train ILF using various BT SMR designs (is it actually doing anything?), get Tagx1 and do them using that, and that's where I'm interested in the experiences of others and any thoughts regarding the frequency range of BE and altering frequency during a session, or bite the bullet and have a crack with Othmer protocol and specialised ILF equipment.

 

Also with Tag ILF the rewards are still silent aren't they? Any advantage to this compared with the continuous reward of BT designs? I did read that the Othmers mentioned the continuous reward being integral to their ILF protocol. I got the impression with Tagx2 protocols that as a meditation state is being trained that it makes sense that some focus is required and the silent reward means that the inhibits act as a nudge back to the targeted state, but is this still the case training ILF, are we attempting to maintain the state at all (can we even do that)  or is it purely the brain responding to the feedback and if so is there the argument in favour of a continuous reward? I might not be fully understanding the nature of silent rewards here, so I've just cobbled together how I think it works from reading various accounts.

 

Thanks in advance for any pointers, I know that TAGx1/ ILF is the somewhat less sexy sibling to the wonders of TAGx2 but I really feel like it's the important ground work, I'm sure there's some apt cliché about having your feet on the ground whilst reaching for the stars and I see it a little bit like that.

[Crowstream]

@Matty

 

Glad to hear you are experimenting, always helps to have more people trying to figure this out. I think ILF is usually defined as below 0.1Hz, filters at 0.001-0.2Hz should target this at least partially... but of course it is not really optimal for ILF training. I still think you can get benefits out of that kind of training, the Othmers reported increased result every time they dropped in frequency, and they started out training normal frequencies like theta, alpha, beta etc I think... When they started dropping really low in frequency I think they had the same problem we have now, that the filters would not go any lower so they made sure their future training systems could train lower. But I think they trained at these kinds of frequencies for a long time and had good results. 

 

I think small adjustments of the frequencies can make a difference, when I was experimenting with this I was also recording my HRV, and sometimes it would spike really high, like 7 on the emwave which was very high for me. I think it makes sense to try to find the sweet spot as you say, it becomes a lot easier if you are also measuring HRV, if not then you have to gauge your own state. I think the Othmers say the optimal state is one where you are not feeling tired, by also not feeling hyped, so a sort of awake and alert but calm awareness is what you are aiming for. What is optimal for you does not even have to be close to ILF, it can be much higher I think, but according to the Othmers at least most people find the optimal spot in ILF.

 

I havent tried using that SMR1C but yea that might work, problem might be the inhibit at 2-11Hz.

 

Also one thing to keep in mind is to switch the Q-wiz to DC mode which is done by pressing the button at the bottom to get a green light to turn on (if you press for a short time you get a blue light I think which is different). I have found that the DC mode is a bit sensitive and sometimes the signal kind of "dies out" and flattens, then you have to reset it into DC mode again and it becomes normal. Also I have been thinking about the filters for this kind of training, and it might be possible that using different kinds of filters would be better, still havent studied this enough to know but that could also be a factor in getting this kind of design to work.

 

I think you can train without silver electrodes, just I have read the Othmers say they prefer those for ILF work, I am not sure how important it is though. I am using the silver electrodes from brain trainer for that kind of work, but I havent done much training in those frequencies with other kinds of electrodes so I cant compare the difference.

 

ILF targeting the foundation of the regulatory hierarchy is mostly why I am interested in it also, I think it can target really deep brain structures like the brain stem, which probably has many of its patterns set very early in life. ILF training is supposedly also good for treating very severe cases of dysregulation. I think dysfunction in these very basic structures probably has a huge effect on the rest of the brain, so yeah makes sense to train it I think.

 

I think SMR training can also help with tension, at least it has for me... usually SMR training will make me aware of some deep tension in my muscles and then I can release it, the sessions can be a bit painful in that way but then I usually feel much more relaxed.

 

If you have the opportunity to do real Othmer training then I would say go for it, what we are doing here is very experimental, would be interesting if you could compare the differences and maybe help us refine and improve the protocol  .

 

For doing the modified TAG ILF design I think I much prefer a continuous reward, it becomes a lot easier I think because of the amount of feedback you receive. I do that with all of my training really as I have found it very helpful.

I dont think you attempt to maintain a state in ILF, the point is to watch your state change in real time and kind of go with the flow I guess.
 

Edit: I confused the lights on the DC mode, I think you want the blue light to turn on, green is some other thing (linked reference electrodes I think).

Edited by Crowstream, 17 June 2015 - 09:48 PM.

[Jochen]

Not really TAGsync related but could be interesting for synergetic effects : http://finderscourse.../bday-2015.html

 

The introduction video's are a bit longwinded, but having spoken to participants, they all had great results.

And this series is for free (meaning we will also have to do most of the work to prepare the protocols).

 

Anyhow, just thought I'd throw this in here as I know some of you have joined Jeffrey Martin's Findersourse workshop in the past.

[Matty72]

@Crowstream

 

Thanks for taking the time out to reply.

 

Regarding your point about training alongside HRV where were you setting the initial lower frequency threshold and in what increments were you dropping it by?

 

It's interesting that you mention HRV, I've never really paid it much attention but after writing my previous post I started looking into it, it seems to come down to emwave products, I did see just an emwave advertised for a relatively decent price but I'm guessing this is an earlier version to emwave2 and pro. Not sure if it would be a false economy.

 

Why do you think that the inhibit for 2-11Hz would be problematic, is it because it's too close? I guess I could alter the BP filters there too, or select another design, perhaps even a 2C SMR one.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the DC mode, needless to say I didn't do that.

 

I read on Pocket Neurobics site that they say that Ag/AgCl electrodes must be used, that you need to wait a few minutes for them to stabilise, that only then do you switch to DC coupled, 'If the trace is racing off the screen , then you haven't waited long enough.'....not sure what that means. 'This stuff is not easy and very artefact prone. Not for the home user IMO.' Also it says that the range only goes down to 2Hz in AC mode.

 

Haha well that's all a bit disappointing. It would appear that I couldn't have been training IL, however it's a bit of a mystery what I was training if my upper reward threshold was at 0.2Hz but lower threshold for AC is 2Hz. I actually had another session the next day where I  experienced a notable increase from the previous day. Maybe I should take a screen shot and we could have a name that waveform competition.

 

Initially when I started reading about ILF I thought this is cool, no QEEg or assessment required, just keep dropping the frequency and have in session state shifting as feedback. But reading the Othmer sites they talk about the complexity and advanced skills required for this kind of work (did wonder if it was a marketing ploy for their courses) and on TagSync yahoo group someone was answering a question on ILF and said that you should be very careful with it.

 

Having said that both you and Opaque Mind seem to have had good results, and presumably Douglas Dailey would be aware of the implications of both user welfare and also ability of BE and Qwiz to be able to train at lower frequencies for some benefit, even if not optimally.

 

I see that earlier in the thread you mention experiencing some of your more profound physical releases of tension from ILF, could you elaborate on that and what areas you think that it has been or may be preferable to TAGx2, BT designs, general up/ down training etc? 

 

I have been contemplating going with the Othmer trained people, what's attractive is being able to rent the equipment and home train to mitigate costs, and it would be great to be able to come on here and relate protocols and say stuff like 'I trained at 0.001Hz last night' and know that it was true.

 

I'd like  to be able to train IL myself first to get a sense of it and then either keep going that way or  take the plunge.

 

I think I'll order some silver electrodes to take that ambiguity out of the equation and take things from there.

[VastEmptiness]

ready very interested what you guys are writing about ILF. if you have any stable designs going, i'd like to test them out and report back.

 

 

It's interesting that you mention HRV, I've never really paid it much attention but after writing my previous post I started looking into it, it seems to come down to emwave products, I did see just an emwave advertised for a relatively decent price but I'm guessing this is an earlier version to emwave2 and pro. Not sure if it would be a false economy.

 

actually you can train HRV with electrodes using the free PN design http://pocketneurobi..._video.bxd_.zip

 

it seems to work flawless and doesn't need any adjustment of the wiz. just channel 1 electrode to the heart and reference where ever theres no heartbeat.

 

also i've been reading up on HRV and trying out the different variables and really just following the breathing timer gives of very coherent HRV for me alongside a pleasant feeling. for the issues you're describing, i think you should really look into this because it is directly associated with (para)sympaticus function and you are essentially training synchrony between the two nerves.

 

i'm using a breathing timer with my more passive BT protocols now, having an emwave for that might be even better, not sure yet if their breath guiding is calculated or just like a normal breath timer.

 

crow noticed the further possibility of syncing our heart to our brain or something like that. like training TAG+heart-sync :D actually at the hearmath institute they are doing research on inter-personal synchronies and synchronizing to the earths energetic fields and so on...

Edited by VastEmptiness, 19 June 2015 - 08:13 PM.