707 replies to this topic

[imlookingforthetruth]

Great discussion on SMR training. I will ask Douglas about CFC and if it really is a point to do SMR training with TagSync.

It's strange he's talking about ILF and SMR training together. ILF is for much lower frequencies...? I didn't recieve any manuals (I also bought the bundle) so I wonder if anyone wants to share with me?

You can send to my email imlookingforthetruth@hotmail.com

 

I will let you know what Douglas says. In the mean time I will try SMR training done in a passive way. I do not think it's easy to approach it with a strong focus, it doesn't seem to make sense at least in terms of reward signals.

As for meditation practice during TagSync, I do believe I have hit something good doing concentration meditation alongside with theta/alpha waves. I have not seen much phase resets during theta/gamma training, but from what I can see here, I'm not the only one struggling with that.

I think if you're trying to get attention back to the bar all the time, you could also consider that meditation. What the object is, is not so important. I agree that as long as you are getting more and more synchronization, you are doing it right. It doesn't really matter what you do, as long as you find something that triggers your brain to sync. However I also agree that mixing meditation with TagSync could lead to a bad meditation session - sometimes I get phase resets and I'm not really sure what I did, so I spend time searching for it when I should just get back to breath. Most of the times I'm aware why I get rewarded, though. As I've said a couple of times, it happens whenever I'm aware of a though and put my attention gently back to the breath. It seems as though just staying as present with the breath as you can is rewarded. There are often thoughts underneath, and when I find silence, I can hear these thoughts. They are loaded with insight, and I can't here them when my mind is all over the place. These kind of thoughts, which seems to be very accurate thoughts about life or simply put just well-reflected, are often rewarded as well. In all the struggle inbetween I get beta inhibit sounds and reward bin alerts, they are very helpful to be aware of what I'm actually doing/thinking. 

 

If there are more 4-channel designs out there, please email me. I like to try different things to see what works best.

[Unlimited Mind]

 

@QEEG: The results are from the TLC7AP, what would a "real" QEEG mean? More sites? Raw data?

 

 

Usually a QEEG records all the available sites simultaneously and the results are compared to a database of people considered "normal."

[imlookingforthetruth]

This is what I asked Douglas, and the answer I got. I've attached the files he sent me as well.

 

Me:

I've started to train SMR at Cz before alpha/theta training. 

In the forum on longecity, the opinions on doing SMR training with TagSync seems to vary.

 

This is one of the posts:

"

In short surely basic SMR training is more suited to BT designs and the like than TAG?

 

I don't see any reason to use TAG for SMR training.  By definition, TAG is training synchrony between two or more different targeted bands of activity in order to promote Cross-Frequency Coupling (CFC).  SMR is confined to up-training roughly 12-15 Hz at the sensorimotor strip from Cz to C4, a single band.  There is no CFC in SMR training, and hence no need for TAG designs. TAG x1 appears to be for bipolar montages although from the documentation I've read it's unclear--in fact the ILF manual that DD includes with his TAG bundle is actually written for SMR training, which is confusing to say the least.  Or that's how it was last time I checked the website.

Also SMR training can be entirely passive, requiring no effort to get oneself into any state of focus, attention, or frequency.  It's one of the classic protocols that works by removing conscious effort from the process and providing a direct feedback loop between the computer and the brain (as opposed to the thinking mind).

"

- Is it correct that it might not be very beneficial to do SMR training in TagSync?

And if it does, do you recommend to stay passive or do something actively?

So far in my SMR sessions I've seen that it doesn't respond the same way as theta/alpha does with my meditation practice, in fact it's doing just the opposite: Whenever I'm day dreaming I get rewarded. So it's not really helpful to approach it that way from what I can tell.

DD reply:

There are several issues which should be discussed regarding the post you copied below.

One should be careful stating, as was done in the post below, that "SMR is confined to up-training roughly 12-15 Hz....". According to the literature, the supposed increase in amplitude we see with SMR training at Cz is not necessarily due to "up-training SMR" voltage, but is due to increased synchrony among the neurons that already produce SMR! When TAG Sync x2 screens are used with a reward (1 or 2) set to SMR, and if the exploratory electrodes (1+ and 2+) are very close together at Cz, this is equivalent to standard SMR training, but only when the obligatory low frequency (e.g., delta/theta) and high frequency (beta/gamma) are fed back as well, which is the standard fashion in which SMR@Cz is achieved.

To state there is NO cross-frequency coupling involved in SMR training, as in the post below, is also ignoring the fact that ever since Lubar joined Sterman, standard SMR@Cz training included a theta inhibit instrument as well as a beta inhibit instrument. The beta inhibit instrument suffered greatly because it ignored the tiny but pathological overexcursions in the high beta in order to have a relatively high voltage threshold (all the way from 18-30 Hz, in order not to be constantly set off by the normally higher voltages of low beta around 18-22 Hz.

Thirdly, you have my ULF manual which came with TAGx1. You can tell me if it is related to SMR or not, as suggested in the post below. In fact, my inclusion of ULF targets based on quadrants in 2010 became, in the following year, a basis for the Othmer's new training manual as well. Interestingly, they are also calling their new way of doing alpha-theta training "alpha-theta synchrony". According to Chapin et al (2014) I was the first person to identify an anterior-posterior training of theta and alpha synchrony and specifically refer to it as A-T Synchrony training.

In any event this seemingly little questions about whether amplitude training is actually training amplitude or synchrony is very important in terms of keeping an open mind about what might be happening, rather than taking sides in an issue which is, as yet, unsolved. AND, the fact that almost all NFB since the early Lubar-Sterman developments actually does include theta-SMR-beta cross-frequency coupling makes it very important to understand really what CFC is. And this is where most people fall short because they do not have an intuitive understanding from the physics of everyday life what CFC is. It is none other than the timbre that allows every instrument, whether wind in the willows, french horn, of friend's voice, to carry immediate information about its current state, just as the EEG does. CFC is simply a bi-product of global broad band synchronization over small world networks operating near self-organized criticality and meeting the criteria of the constructal law of physics, what I call GBBS/SWN + SOC & CLaw.

Probably all NFB offers the client's brain information on the CFC between at least delta/theta, alpha/SMR, and beta/gamma. Knowing which are likely to be disturbed in a particular situation is very beneficial. For example, pervasive developmental disorders such as autism have disturbed CFC between alpha and gamma (Khan, PNAS 2013). Social anxiety disorder has disturbed CFC between delta and beta (Miskovic, 2011).

SMR@Cz may have benefits folks don't realize. After all, my team, headed by Dr. Lori Russell-Chapin at Bradley University, showed using fMRI that standard SMR (with CFC between theta, SMR, and beta) lead to an adaptive maturation of the default mode network. This is why I compare NFB to an adaptogen in Chinese herbal medicine. In fact, the adaptogenic acupuncture point, ST 36 (zu san li), has been shown to both mature the default mode network and increase the small world network (SWN) efficiency of the brain.

The importance of SWN status is something I have been struggling to get posted the last few weeks.

A huge issue being missed here is the importance of NFB providing experience in novelty detection and environmental enrichment. This increases dopamine product which leads to adaptive reconfiguration of the SWNs of the brain (Schomaker et al 2015).

Finally I want to mention the abundant literature showing that SMR@Cz training benefits treatment resistant epilepsy. According to Hughes et al about 60% of all individuals with attention deficit disorders exhibit frank epileptiform activity on the EEG. I included a bibliography, out of date now, which I compiled in 2012. Furthermore, I believe one should consider the anatomic importance of Cz which is called bai hui - a thousand meetings in chinese - and is crucial to the entry into the bardo of death in the Tibetan Buddhistg tradition called "phowa".

This is only my understanding based I the current literature (plus traditions) to which I have had access. Please feel free to discuss and share these articles.

 

End of correspondation.

 

I think it's interesting. Surely people on here have not been training 2-channel on SMR? It seems to me 1-channel SMR is the standard. 

I've asked him what frequency he thinks you should be pairing the SMR frequency with. I guess theta/alpha could work, but I would like to hear his opinion.

 

What is your take on it?

 

 __Epilepsy & NFB bibliography.pdf   66.38KB   6 downloads

 Khan S, et al (2013) - Local and long-range functional connectivity is reduced in concert in autism spectrum disorders.pdf   953.81KB   9 downloads

 Miskovic V, et al (2011) - Changes in EEG cross-frequency coupling during cognitive behavioral therapy for social anxiety disorder.pdf   953.35KB   11 downloads

 Russell-Chapin L, et al (2013) - The Effects of Neurofeedback in the Default Mode Network - Pilot Study Results of Medicated Children with ADHD.pdf   251.93KB   9 downloads

 Schomaker J, et al (2015) - Short- and long-lasting consequences of novelty, deviance and surprise on brain and cognition. Neuroscience and Biobehav.pdf   972.54KB   12 downloads

[hza]

@looking I'm not sure what Douglas is on about here.  It was not my intention to discuss what activity may or may not be happening during SMR training, I only stated that it is normally approached as a monopolar training at a single band width, generally 12-15 Hz.  I don't know specifically that conventional SMR training targets voltage, synchrony, coherence, or what, but a handful of approaches dominate in the designs I've used and seen discussed, which is to reward activity in the targeted band, to reduce all other frequencies (aka a squash, with an upper limit around 38 Hz) except for the targeted band, to do both, or as in the Brain-Trainer 1% design, to boost the targeted band as a percentage of total activity in all bands.  Does synchrony occur when this is done?  Does CFC?  I don't know, and I certainly never stated or implied that it doesn't.  What I do know is that all the SMR training designs that I've mentioned focus on ONE BAND, not two.

 

The ILF manual I received with my TAG x1 x2 design bundle dealt, to the best of my recollection (I'll have to break it out again when I have time, it is definitely a very information-packed read and quite helpful in understanding EEG nfb), almost exclusively with identifying a subject's personal SMR band (or peak Alpha, or inferring one from the other, again it's been just a little too long since I read it last) and then using that number to calculate what frequency to do bipolar training, again in a single band.  I have not seen mention in the manual of simultaneously training two different target bands.  My TAG x1 design, however, identifies two bands to set rewards and inhibits for.  It is identical to the TAG x2 design, except for use with only a single active electrode.  Can you train other targeted bands with SMR using the TAG designs?  Absolutely.  I've seen no mention of it in the manual, or anywhere else.  The ILF manual appears to be written for a single target design, not for dual targets as we use in TAG.  As such, I don't see any particular connection between the ILF manual and either of the TAG designs.  For that matter, Bioexplorer supposedly can't even target ILF frequencies anyway, but that's a different quibble entirely.

 

So I don't know why my post should be so objectionable, or really what those objections raised have to do with what I've said.  I do know that we've gotten a lot of very interesting information in DD's response that we weren't looking for, while not getting any answer or acknowledgement of your most direct and relevant question, which is, how should I train SMR?  Seriously, are you any closer to understanding how to train SMR now than you were before you asked your question?  This is what drives me a little nuts about Douglas, I've asked him repeatedly some very basic and direct questions about training with TAG, and never gotten them answered.  It's especially frustrating given how many sessions I've done with it (about 20) without once getting any of the results I see others here getting, often in the first session alone.  

 

But anyway, that's my deal.  I've decided that the next time I give TAG a try, I'm just going to dive into it with long daily sessions until I reach some kind of breakthrough.  In the meantime, it's good to know that simple SMR at Cz has so much promise in helping along with TAG training.

 

Thanks for sharing the correspondences.

[VastEmptiness]

For that matter, Bioexplorer supposedly can't even target ILF frequencies anyway, but that's a different quibble entirely.

 

So I don't know why my post should be so objectionable, or really what those objections raised have to do with what I've said.  I do know that we've gotten a lot of very interesting information in DD's response that we weren't looking for, while not getting any answer or acknowledgement of your most direct and relevant question, which is, how should I train SMR?  Seriously, are you any closer to understanding how to train SMR now than you were before you asked your question?  This is what drives me a little nuts about Douglas, I've asked him repeatedly some very basic and direct questions about training with TAG, and never gotten them answered.  It's especially frustrating given how many sessions I've done with it (about 20) without once getting any of the results I see others here getting, often in the first session alone.  

 

But anyway, that's my deal.  I've decided that the next time I give TAG a try, I'm just going to dive into it with long daily sessions until I reach some kind of breakthrough.  In the meantime, it's good to know that simple SMR at Cz has so much promise in helping along with TAG training.

 

Thanks for sharing the correspondences.

I've made different experiences using Crows/Opaques? ILF setup with TAGx1. Training ILF&Delta synchrony & ILF amplitude let me to very profound meditative states. It feels like the lower we go, the more the state is that of lacking content, however I haven't trained enough solely there to confirm. So using the frequencies Crow posted earlier it seems to work.

As your impression about Douglas that's really funny to me since it reinforces my impression of him. Like hyperintelligent to the point where communication starts getting difficult because he's just out there with his thoughts. I've seen that often in more gifted people. Well, I don't know him but from reading and hearing peoples experiences with him It's forming that picture. He makes for a fascinating read though. As for SMR I find the C1% design by brain-trainer to be very easy and effective. I'll usually start around 17% and went up to like 23% feeling very profound effects right away, improved sleep after, etc. Often unlocked some emotional material. Now I can get easily to 28% on C3(refC4).

 

About getting results in TAGsync: I would be really interested what you are looking for and what you're comparing it too. It's easy to end up feeling lacking after reading about other peoples experiences. This is a general problem, just think of Facebook where everybody publishes their photoshopped version of their holiday, relationship, whatever but no one mentions their depressions, daily routines. It's hard to come up close in a comparison with the much more complete versions that we have of our own experiences. See what I'm trying to say is that people here will contribute when they feel good, when they have some success and from that state of mind they will present their story. Nobody mentions the downfalls and troubles usually so I think a post like that of Matty72 has alot of worth to it. My journey certainly was and is full of ups&downs. If I tell you the story now, where I just experienced a major breakthrough, It'll be a wonderful one. If I'll be telling the same story in another state of mind, it might be a much more depressing one. Our current states generate the narrative self that we identify with so strongly. Any life is a story of ups&downs and please don't make the mistake of comparing your downs with the "photoshopped" (narrated) versions of other peoples ups. It's a common mechanism that contributes to most of my clients issues. Neurofeedback like any other practice takes time and effort and it will have different effects on different people. See what works for you and go with that. You didn't ask for any advice so please just ignore what I said if it's not valuable to you, but it still might be for somebody else. 

 

I could offer you some time on Skype and look you over the shoulder if that can be of any help. No charge, I enjoy giving back to those who got me into the game. If so, shoot me a PM.

 

-VE

[Ames]

some HEG tips for climbing

 

-lean forward, as close to the screen as u can

-maximise the the flash player window, make it as big as u can

- point of focus (could be different for the different training spots)

-> feet of the moving figure

-> some small white structure inside of the brain

-> the brain itself and its red color

-> some other static point near the right side of the screen while concentrating on the moving brain in your visual periphery

-> for Fp2 u can also try other things like the feeling of metta (google it if u dont know what it is)

how to focus

-> make the picture as clear as possible; colors should be vivid; 

-> don't focus on the feeling of focusing; if u focus on the feeling of focusing/ effort your focus is not on the figure and will oscillate between these two points which will lower your AI score

-> dont think, analyze after the training

-> relax

 

My take on successful HEG climbing is that the best technique is to focus on as fine a point as possible on some image on the screen.

 

I use the white 'veins' inside the brain on the running man. Though, I don't just focus on the white vein structure, I focus on the small tip of the finest white line. I'm trying to see a single pixel, if possible, and bring it into as sharp focus as possible. Both of these aspects of the exercise are key.

 

The third key is that this fine point has to be at least a certain distance away, likely the further the better while still being able to keep the point in fine focus. My eyes are probably 30+ inches or so from the screen in my natural sitting position.

 

After I focus on the fine point, I begin to imagine finer, smaller branching veins and blood vessels coming out of the white vein structure. This imagery seems to have an added effect when I need an extra boost to climb or keep climbing. 

 

Using this technique, I've gotten my highest and most consistent climbing sessions.

 

The thing is, at least for me, is that this technique is fully transferrable outside of the game. If I'm bored or have a headache, I'll merely pick up a pencil, hold it at arms length, and focus on the smallest tip of the finest line on the lettering on the side and attempt to hold the sharpest focus possible for a period of time. Or, I'll focus on some fine point on a line on my desktop. This exercise has the same felt effect, for me, over the next day or two as an HEG session on the LIFE game does. However, I still value the game both for what it taught me to do and to give me the option of an HEG activity that I can stretch out for 10 minutes. I'm not sure that I've stared at a pencil for ten minutes yet.
 

[Sebster]

About getting results in TAGsync: I would be really interested what you are looking for and what you're comparing it too. It's easy to end up feeling lacking after reading about other peoples experiences. This is a general problem, just think of Facebook where everybody publishes their photoshopped version of their holiday, relationship, whatever but no one mentions their depressions, daily routines. It's hard to come up close in a comparison with the much more complete versions that we have of our own experiences. See what I'm trying to say is that people here will contribute when they feel good, when they have some success and from that state of mind they will present their story. Nobody mentions the downfalls and troubles usually so I think a post like that of Matty72 has alot of worth to it. My journey certainly was and is full of ups&downs. If I tell you the story now, where I just experienced a major breakthrough, It'll be a wonderful one. If I'll be telling the same story in another state of mind, it might be a much more depressing one. Our current states generate the narrative self that we identify with so strongly. Any life is a story of ups&downs and please don't make the mistake of comparing your downs with the "photoshopped" (narrated) versions of other peoples ups. It's a common mechanism that contributes to most of my clients issues. Neurofeedback like any other practice takes time and effort and it will have different effects on different people. See what works for you and go with that. You didn't ask for any advice so please just ignore what I said if it's not valuable to you, but it still might be for somebody else. 

 

 

 

 

I just want to say thank you for this message VE, really spot on for me and probably a lot of other people too. <3

And I think this something a lot of people forget or don’t realize when they are doing any practice in life not only NFB or meditation practices.

And just want to add my thoughts on this subject, even though I´m yet not very experienced so far in NFB/TAGsync but one thing I have noticed that seems to me to be the difference between and good and a "bad" TAGsync session is how strongly you enter with beginners mindset and how clear your mind are from thoughts when you enter your session.  

 

My best sessions so far has been when I have no thoughts, or have a very casual approach to it like "oh, well let’s just put these electrodes on and see what happens, duuuur” Another tip or approach to this is do warm up session, you could for example do 20min TAGsync and just play around, try different approaches, tinker with the settings and just goof around until you are in a playful, relaxed state. And then you can do your real TAG session. This is approach I have used with meditation with great success before and should transfer very well to TAG/NFB. J

 

This mindset can also be written in other terms like. "Freedom from outcome" "detached from outcome” and is something you will find in probably in all self-help books other spirituality writings. And to be fair this also what living in non-symbolic consciousness/enlightenment is a big part about…

 

This is also why I feel that all meditations practices primary goal should be to either clear your mind from thoughts or in less frequency, as this will make you less detached and more efficient and help you have a much clearer intent on what is that want to achieve .

 

/end rant

Edited by Sebster, 17 July 2015 - 07:24 AM.

[Matty72]

 As for SMR I find the C1% design by brain-trainer to be very easy and effective. I'll usually start around 17% and went up to like 23% feeling very profound effects right away, improved sleep after, etc. Often unlocked some emotional material. Now I can get easily to 28% on C3(refC4).

 

 

 

 

Hey VE, a very generous post from you as always.

 

You've given me something to work with here regarding SMR1C%, I've just started training it recently after a conversation with Pete, where he's getting me to try some new protocols, that are in general more simplified.....monopolar....single channel.

 

Anyway I only kept a vague eye on the actual % rise, I try not to get too caught up in terms of progress on trend graphs etc but in this case your experience gives me some reference. I'm not totally sure what % I started at but I think it was probably around 20% and got up to 23%, this is at Cz.

 

What I'm interested in trying to work out is whether my brain is responding well to the training within a session but is unable to apply that learning or whether it just doesn't respond very well to the training itself.

 

I certainly don't  feel anything when training that protocol or any other.

 

Just having some reference with your experience should act as a guide to me in that regard.

 

When I spoke to Pete, the other week, he gave me 7 montages, to just be trained individually each day and he wanted to report back with any changes that I'd noticed, in an attempt to try to isolate which will be providing benefit. But I found this a really strange concept, I couldn't really believe that you might train something once and notice benefits that day or the next that allow you to pinpoint that as a beneficial training but clearly that's how it works for many people.

 

It was good to read your accounts regarding HRV and a noticeable change in your face colour for example, I think this could be a really important step for me, especially regarding DD's comments on the matter, so I have my fingers crossed there.

 

 

Also I almost forgot, you may have already noticed, but in case not, there's a firmware update available on the Pocket Neurobics site for the HEG issue of not being able to go past 111/112. I haven't applied it yet but it should be interesting to see how high we can climb now! I think it would be easy to overdo it and get too competitive with yourself

[imlookingforthetruth]

I agree with what you say about Douglas, he did dodge the questions regarding how to approach the session, and it's not the first time. I've been talking a lot with him, and he never gives a straigth answer to these kinds of things. I have two theories why he doesn't really answer those questions: One theory is that he just has so much in his head that he wants to share, so he can just start talking and very quickly go to something esoteric or very technological stuff, and sometimes it's hard to follow on what kind of connections he's trying to make - but that he doesn't try to avoid it, he simply forgets the main question a little bit. I'm sure he would get banned from reddit's ELI5 (explainlikeimfive), haha. Another theory is that he doesn't want to say any specific stuff about techniques, because he wants you to seek the non-symbolic experiences - and more techniques and things you're trying to do could simply mess it all up. He often asks during the sessions, "do you recognize why you sometimes stay in silence a little longer?", and I think it's a good approach. Self-realization is exactly that, realizing one's true self. And you can't really help another person too much with that. Surely, though, he should be able to give some advice on whether to stay active or passive, but I may agree with not giving a specfic technique. 

 

 

VE, could you please link me to the post about ILF TAG x1 training you are talking about? Or perhaps send the design to imlookingforthetruth@hotmail.com?

 

I will recieve the EM Wave Pro today or tomorrow, so I'll start training HRV as soon as I can and keep you updated.

 

Am I the only one writing a log on my sessions by the way? I write a log where I comment on the session, and particularly on my focus and phase resets. I also comment on my mood during the day/days after the session. I think this will be really helpful to go back and have a look at after some time. 

[Ames]

I did my first TagSync session two days ago, and incidentally it was my first eeg nfb session.

 

placement

 

I did the default beginning placements at fz and pz with a cz ground. Then, as per a recommendation somewhere on this thread, I moved the electrode that was previously at pz to below the ridge on the back of my head. I completed the session rather late at night, which is something I will probably try to avoid in the future in hopes of avoiding any type of light-sleep side effect.

 

electrodes

 

I'm using sintered electrodes that are supposed to transmit less noise, and are recommended for ILF, but be forewarned that they are more work to maintain and likely slightly more delicate in terms of being scratched when cleaning. Though, I'm not sure that the scratches affect anything. Probably not. I would likely defer to the standard dome electrodes for this type of nfb, for ease of post session cleaning, but I can't find mine at the moment. The sintered electrode plastic/rubber cups are more difficult to dig into to remove 10-20 paste and you have to use distilled water. If any one has any questions about the sintered electrodes, feel free to ask. I appreciate them as an option.

 

my frequency amplitude production

 

I was successful at consistently ringing the phase reset bell for AT Sync training, with my alpha being on average significantly higher in amplitude than my theta. My gamma was very low. My alpha would shoot up even higher eyes closed, but I made sure to do the session with EO as I was still able to generate enough alpha that way. My beta would only cross the inhibit threshold when I either moved my body significantly or began reading something.

 

I did 'try' during the training, but at the moment I could not tell you exactly what I did other than stare at the white blind in a dim office with no real thought stream occurring other than a recognition of the feedback sounds. I can state that whenever I thought about any task in-depth, such as a threshold adjustment, the negative reinforcement alarms were abundant.

 

thresholds

 

I tried both manual and automatic thresholds, preferring manual thresholds for the ability to maintain above threshold targets without the threshold moving up and dinging me. I felt that the automatic thresholds were more like a merciless taskmaster with a whip, with no acheived level ever being good enough. The lack of quiet wasn't pleasant in comparison. I definitely had the sense of my brain working harder under the auto thresholds, and felt that a longer session would not be better under auto,  but it was an interesting experience nevertheless.  I did about 35 minutes per montage with mostly manual thresholds.

 

experience

 

During the AT part of the session, I entered a slightly altered state that felt more or less similar if not a bit weaker in my later AG Sync training. That tells me that theta likely affects gamma. I had some significant cerebral inflammation going into the session, which may have inhibited how successful I was.

 

I guess that I was irrationally hoping for an instant mood change that didn't occur :/ Though, rationally I know that this is a gradual process and that TAGSync might not even be the most optimal protocol for such a thing. That night, I went to bed and slept lightly, needing two separate naps the next day. Also, my brain felt deeply fatigued on almost an emotional level, but I don't know how much of that was secondary to the light sleep side effect or a primary symptom of the training itself. Though, I also felt a slight shift in my brain, that wasn't fatigue or necessarily anything negative, but it was so subtle that I wouldn't be able to articulate what it was exactly. It could have been placebo. I was reluctant to do another session the next day due to the fatigue, and skipped it in part due to schedule considerations.

 

Last night, the second night since training, I had exceedingly vivid dreams that felt different (I know, but its hard to explain), and seemed to be an effect of the training but I can't be exactly sure. I was happy to have them because they signified for me that the training has a probable effect. Consistent repetition of this phenomenon in the day or two after training will either confirm or disprove this effect for me.

 

future sessions toward reducing anxiety

 

Currently, my highest priority is ameliorating rather severe anxiety that has come upon me in the past few months and with which I was not before familiar. I didn't feel any anxiety decrease in my first TAGSync session at central placements, but I'm also fully aware that any potential decrease could occur over many sessions.

 

I'm tempted to follow Chapin's (Neurotherapy and Neuofeedback, 2014),  recommendations for anxiety and either try the Sebern Fisher Protocol (Fisher's book is excellent, btw, for neurotherapy theory) or SMR training.

 

I'm also considering TAGSync at F3/F4 and/or F3/P4 as per Chapin, as well as embarking on a TLC7 training plan.

 

Any recommendations for anxiety (primary) and general mood (secondary), based in personal experience would be fantastic.

 

Bioexplorer designs

 

The last subject that I wished to address is Bioexplorer designs. Perhaps it's because I'm relatively new to this and haven't yet worked through a TLC7 plan, but I find the documentation for the brain trainer designs to be somewhat lacking in terms of being able to simply figure out how to adapt them for use outside of a plan telling me to simply use xyz design at xyz placements every so often. Though, the SMR design is pretty clear cut for instance. I suspect that I might have a better handle on the Brain Trainer designs after I work through a TLC7 plan.

 

In consideration of this issue that might be endemic to new people, or in consideration of the people that might not have opted to go the Brain Trainer route, I wanted to suggest that we begin collectively recommending specific or adapted Bioexplorer design resources for specific or adaptable uses, and I wanted to start off by suggesting an adaptable and free design that might be off of the radar of at least any new person getting started with Bioexplorer. 

 

http://pocketneurobi..._EIM_Offset1.7z

 

This is a design with one reward and three inhibits that would work well as an adaptable design for many monopolar training protocols. It even has an impedance check button.

 

A tip for adapting designs:

 

The key to knowing which bins are reward and which are inhibit, and to changing such, is to right click on thethreshold bin and then click 'Properties'. The Threshold Properties window pops up and you will see a vertical list with check boxes next to each word. The list begins with 'Auto', then 'Single', then 'Increase'. Checking the 'increase' option will reward any amplitude above the threshold. Unchecking the 'increase' option will inhibit any amplitiude above the threshold.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited by golgi1, 17 July 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Meggo]

 Any recommendations for anxiety (primary) and general mood (secondary), based in personal experience would be fantastic.

 

Use a bipolar placement. Ground at Cz, Reference at T4, Active at Fp2; Eyes Closed.

Reward 2-5Hz, inhibit 12-35Hz for 30min. 

Do the same with P4 instead of Fp2 for another 30min, now you can use eyes open if you like.

If you have the braintrainer designs use the SMR 1C up (not the SMR%) for doing this and change the filters to match the settings above. I'm pretty sure you will like it.

[VastEmptiness]

Thank you guys for the kind responses here in general; this is very useful feedback for me if it makes sense to write here or not. I sometimes feel that this form of communication here is very limiting to what I'm trying to transmit, but I'll keep giving it a try. Actually theres an idea getting nurtured in my mind to start a video blog about basics of training and some other topics I feel discussing. That might or might not be a project for the near future. Anyway, just wrote an answer to OpaqueMind in a PM and I thought this might be interesting for anybody training synchrony.

 

What does synchrony mean in EEG terms?

There is various forms to reward synchrony, BioExplorer basicly gives you two directly:

- Coherence

- Phase Difference

 

Coherence means stability of relationship over time. So we could have 100% of coherence of two signals going completely out of phase. However we can assume that they are linked together because the action of one seems to influence/or relate to the action of the other. And/or we are just measuring the same signal at another point and it arrives there with a delay. 100% coherence means you can predict the behaviour of the other wave with maximum certainty.

 

Phase Difference can be either rewarded over time (make two bands over time more often align at the same moment) or instantaneously (reward when they align). From the point of learning theory I believe the last one to be the superior way to reward since we give the nervous system a information with very high resolution "THIS is what i want you to do.". Also I believe that TAGsync does exactly that by rewarding peaks in multiple channels and bands. For them to peak at the same time, they need to be phase-aligned or at least some of the sources need to be. What adds to its efficiency is that we can create those peaks consciously whereas some other trainings are restricted by the speed of involuntary happenings of what we want to reinforce, while in TAGsync added effort creates better results. I would image that training up phase-alignment over time just makes the TAGsync bell occur more frequently on it's own without any effort.

What TAGsync does not do is control Phase Difference over time nor Coherence, nor does it really make sure in the multiple-channel designs that all of the channels are aligned but rather rewards a likely alignment of summed channels. This however might be exactly what we want; learn the conscious skill (and reinforce the pathways) to create synchronous peaks and other than that leave the brain alone and self-regulate i.e. simply reinforcing it's ability to produce phase resets. Just this seems to have a huge effect as documented in the thread. In theory however we still might have low coherence and not often phase alignments however i guess this is getting less likely with continued training since we are reinforcing those pathways with every bell sound. However there is no definite feedback on this in the protocol.

From my understanding what we really want however, is a more synchronous brain at all sites from Alpha down (around 12hz) and from Gamma up (around 38hz) within each band and between bands as we see these patterns in advanced meditators, during meditation and generally correlated with peak performance and intelligence. (This might be a complete overgeneralization on my part but it makes intuitive sense and so far my results are promising. For more specific correlations just look up pubmed. Also specific site relations are very interesting here, Crow and Opaque have done some work on that.) What that means is that I want all signals below 12 and above 38 to produce alot of shared peaks (TAGsync), therefore phase aligning perfectly (difference=0) and often over time (average phase difference low, possibly even downtraining phase difference peaks) and be related to each other (high coherence). (There is natural limits to this as some more distant areas of the brain will never be able to show the same signal at exactly the same time due to their different location in relation to the signal's source but we might be able to reach perfect coherence so it always there with the same delay. Just a guess, don't know yet enough about those dynamics really.)

 

As a result of what i said, my protocol is trying to reward "Phase Resets" both summed and all-channel but as well is giving continious reward on Coherence(up)&Phase Difference(down) and specifically whenever Phase Differences are at their very lowest (like bottom 1%) to give a direct feedback with possibly no latency whenever this goal is reached. This latter form of high resolution low latency feedback is in my understanding the single most effective way of learning. It's a concept I use in all my work, not just NFB (Biological systems, psychological systems, organizational systems and probably even more macro ones like states, worlds, they all learn in the same manner when viewed from a more cybernetic approach; fast definite feedback on clear goals transparent to all involved aspects/people).

 

[Ames]

 

 Any recommendations for anxiety (primary) and general mood (secondary), based in personal experience would be fantastic.

 

Use a bipolar placement. Ground at Cz, Reference at T4, Active at Fp2; Eyes Closed.

Reward 2-5Hz, inhibit 12-35Hz for 30min. 

Do the same with P4 instead of Fp2 for another 30min, now you can use eyes open if you like.

If you have the braintrainer designs use the SMR 1C up (not the SMR%) for doing this and change the filters to match the settings above. I'm pretty sure you will like it.

 

 

Thanks. I'll try it.

 

Is anyone training more than one session per day to implement more than one protocol, in the morning and evening for instance?

Edited by golgi1, 18 July 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Unlimited Mind]

Any recommendations for anxiety (primary) and general mood (secondary), based in personal experience would be fantastic.

Use a bipolar placement. Ground at Cz, Reference at T4, Active at Fp2; Eyes Closed.
Reward 2-5Hz, inhibit 12-35Hz for 30min.
Do the same with P4 instead of Fp2 for another 30min, now you can use eyes open if you like.
If you have the braintrainer designs use the SMR 1C up (not the SMR%) for doing this and change the filters to match the settings above. I'm pretty sure you will like it.

Thanks. I'll try it.

Is anyone training more than one session per day to implement more than one protocol, in the morning and evening for instance?

I usually do a session in the morning with other protocol(s) and in the night I do TAGsync.

[Bobity]

@glogi1 I usually do TAGsync in the morni g and BT in the evening as I always find TAGsync invigorating.

[Bobity]

Great post @VE I'm very interested in any material you produce. There is so little on internals of TAGsync anywhere other than DD & this forum. And its great see users like yourself looking above and beyond. Do you believe use of TAGsync is a vector in the development of your ideas ?

[Crowstream]

Hey Crowstream, I didn't mean to ask for anything all that rigorous, just wondering if you and others have noticed improvements in day-to-day function--subjective observations are just fine  It'd be nice to n=1 everything and quantify all the pros and cons of each various protocol and method with rigid controls to see precisely what effects occur as a result of what, but hey, life is short, you know?  I wouldn't do that myself and I wouldn't ask anyone else to.  

 

But there are certain areas where I think I could be performing better, and may even be performing below average, like, I'm a slow reader, and when I listen to audio lectures I often tune out and have to replay the same section over and over again because my attention drifts at precisely the same spot--that kind of thing.  There are areas like that where a subjective analysis can, I think, be quite reliable.  You may not know how your TOVA scores have improved over time, but in general terms you should have some evidence in your daily experience if a significant improvement in attention and focus has occured (as an example).  Or it could be a notable improvement in general mood, or less reactivity, just whatever.  The meditative experience itself and the states reached during are all of great interest as well, but as I understand these things, improvements in this area should also translate into life spent in ordinary pursuits.  

 

Anyway, thanks for your observations, and if you think of anything else, I'd be interested to read about it.

 

Hey Hza, sorry about the slow reply... I have been going through some changes lately and I have been unsure myself of how to make sense of things (in a positive way I think). It is kind of hard to write about subjective changes as they usually only make sense within a context, that can be hard to convey. It is also difficult to determine cause and effect of things when I am doing a lot of things that potentially work together to produce synergetic effects. The NFB training has been a central feature of my routines for a long time now and I feel like it is one of the most important things I am doing, my favorite protocol is still TAG Sync, I find I usually mostly want to use it over other protocols, although I have found others to be highly useful also. The SMR protocol for instance I think may have helped re-tune my sensory-motor system, so I have a lot less tension in my body now. It is very nice I think because tension can prevent the development of bodily awareness, which I try to cultivate in my meditations. It might be the case that my somatic meditations also helped resolve the tension I was feeling, but nowadays I usually feel very relaxed for the most part which I never used to feel as I was experiencing a constant background tension in my shoulders and back for example.

My somatic meditations have become deeper where I can access thoughtless states of just being in the body and feeling the energetic flows, I think the ability to shift into a thoughtless state has mostly been cultivated through alpha training, mainly via TAG Sync... it might be the kind of non-symbolic experience talked about here, I feel like my mind becomes empty and I become completely present and I just feel myself being. Sometimes that is accompanied by sudden insights or images that I perceive in my imagination. It is like the psyche reaches a kind of balance point between conscious/unconscious and information can flow in between which I have found highly useful.

 

I feel like my HRV training helped me a great deal also, especially when I combined it with a breathing timer, configured to an optimal breathing pattern... I feel like it didnt take very much training to reset my default breathing mode to where my breathing changes automatically and I dont need to pay attention to it. The increased breath awareness/control also had some powerful effects on meditation, I think breathing is perhaps the main tool to access different meditative states and I have experienced spontaneously altered breathing patterns where I accessed incredibly deep levels of consciousness (through extremely slow, relaxed and deep breathing, centered deep in my diaphragm).

I am also often noticing peoples breathing patterns and I can feel their stress so to speak, by just noticing their breathing... a lot of people (seemingly unconsciously) take rapid inbreaths through their nose every now and then, I think that is like a disturbance in the breathing rhythms and the ANS that may cause an imbalance between sympathetic and parasympathetic, I think increasing sympathetic mainly and causing stress... I have become very sensitive to those things so I can more easily spot peoples mental states in that way. I also find myself more aware of my breathing, where I can usually feel my breathing which is quite subtle and pleasant.

 

I have also had great success in combining NFB training with psychedelics, I think they can greatly potentiate each other... I have had several mystical experiences as a result that are too strange to describe hehe, it has sometimes been followed by days or even weeks of extreme creativity, floods of insight and massive changes in self-concept/self-awareness. It is kind of hard to tell what the cause of this is, but I have tried psychedelics many times before doing NFB and had profound experiences then too, but nothing like what I have been experiencing now... I feel like the NFB training has taken it to a whole other level that has been incredibly insightful for me and made me challenge everything I believed. It has really made me rethink things about myself that I just took for granted and thought were self-evident, so in that sense I feel like my self-concept has become more dynamic, fluid and more deep and profound.

 

It has made me change the things I am doing and made my path clear to me. I am mostly interested now in inner work, transforming and transmuting myself to become a more loving person, and I feel like the whole NFB thing appeared for me just at the right time.

 

 

@imlookingforthetruth

 

Thank you for sharing so much information from your conversations with Douglas, that is interesting stuff  .

 

As for a 4-channel design, I am a bit cautious about sharing designs myself to be honest. I am pretty sure that you have probably already bought the designs so it would be ok to share, but in general I dont want to share designs since I prefer if people buy their designs from Douglas.. I know you have probably done that but there is a risk I guess with sharing designs. What I probably can do is to write a guide on how to make your own 4-channel design, out of a 2-channel so that the instructions can only be understood and used by people who already have the designs.. that is a bit annoying I guess for people but also eliminates a lot of the risks with sharing designs.

 

I can recommend this article for information about the EEG and meditation: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20167507

 

Basically they propose 3 meditation categories:

-Focused attention, characterized by beta/gamma activity - would probably be like samatha

-Open monitoring, theta activity - more like vipassana I think

-Automatic self-transcending, low alpha - absence of focus and individual control or effort - this is more like the transcendental meditation technique - in the Vedanta school it might be like the process of self-inquiry - I feel like this category is the easiest one to train with TAG Sync (at least from my experience so far with this)

 

"Alpha activity in association areas may represent liveliness of the ‘‘screen of consciousness,” which provides a context for grouping isolated elements into the unity of experience. For instance, when solving a problem by intuition or insight, alpha activity increases first, followed by increases in the gamma band when the idea comes to mind (Kounios & Beeman, 2009)."

 

Transcendental Meditation ™ practice—higher global alpha power and higher frontal alpha1 coherence:

"This random assignment within-subject study reported EEG patterns in 25 subjects during transcending compared to order-balanced periods of thought-filled experiences during Transcendental Meditation practice. Transcending was subjectively characterized by the absence of time, space and body sense (Travis & Pearson, 2000), and objectively characterized by: (1) significantly lower breath rates; (2) higher respiratory sinus arrhythmia amplitudes; (3) higher global alpha power; and (4) higher frontal alpha coherence (Travis, 2001)."

 

@Sebster

 

Cool, great to have more non-symbolic people hehe, I have been curious about Jeffrey Martins work, seems highly interesting for my purposes. I am interested in hearing more about your take on NFB as compared to the other things you have tried.

 

I totally agree on the importance of freedom/detachment from outcome... often I think our conscious minds can get in the way, usually the solution lies outside of our sphere of consciousness and thats why we cant move forward, the solution is in the unknown, but by its nature we cannot know what it is that we need, it has to be revealed to us when we are open to receive, which is when the conscious mind relaxes its hold and its definitions of reality.

 

@golgi1

 

For anxiety I think probably alpha training is best... James Hardt found this in his biocybernaut research, I think he has written a paper on how high-anxiety individuals had low alpha levels, and that training to increase those levels reduced anxiety.. I think you can find the paper for free on the biocybernaut website.

 

I think for me at least anxiety can be a sign of great upheavals and changes, periods of great uncertainty and creativity that can also be quite challenging. It might be the sign of something new emerging, or some aspect of the self that is surfacing for integration.

 

I am sometimes doing 2 sessions per day, not always, most often I do 1 a day I think but yea I do find doing 2 per day useful sometimes when I want to trigger more intense changes. and then I usually slow down if it becomes too much.

 

 

Anyways, I hope that is useful for everyone  .  I am happy to see so many people using these protocols now, will be interesting to see how this evolves in the future.

[imlookingforthetruth]

Can someone explain what the ground electrode does, and why it's placement sometimes are different?

 

@Crow, I understand that you're holding back. If you need any confirmation that I've bought the designs myself, I will gladly do that.

Edited by imlookingforthetruth, 18 July 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[Ames]

I trained TAGSync at several sites this evening:

 

My initial experiences at each site:

 

1. T3/P4 - didn't notice anything.

2. T4/P4 - a definite light to moderate relaxation effect.

3. F3/F4 - a definite effect that's hard to describe. It was slightly activating at first, but the overall felt effect was just that it was doing something significant. Though, I'm pretty sure that we have the capability to feel nervous activation in the frontal lobe more than at other brain sites. Thus, me "feeling" something more at this site doesn't necessarily mean that it was having a lesser effect at other sites. The felt activation is definitely motivating toward training more with this montage. I was most successful at Alpha-Gamma Sync at this site.

 

Also, I'm aware that what I feel tonight has no real bearing on whether it is working or not. For instance, I felt a significant and positive effect after training at the midline on two prior occasions; but I think I am noticing a significant anxiety effect the next day from it. The good felt effect seems to arrive on the second day after training with that montage for me. I am also looking for long term changes, but those will obviously take time to observe.

 

Full disclosure: I trained at another site as well, but realized that I had mis-measured after I was done. It was supposed to be F3 /(P4) but it was only half the distance from the midline as it should have been. I didn't feel much.  Little mistakes like this are obviously part of the learning process. I will admit to finding 10-20 site location measuring a chore on my own head, especially when I am training multiple montages in one session. I will be looking to implement a premeasured solution soon. I'd be interested to know who is measuring for every site and who has implemented a more expedient solution to make life easier. 

 

 

[imlookingforthetruth]

To update on the emWave Pro, I have recieved it and have had 5 sessions so far.

In terms of the spectral display Douglas was talking about, it's just graphs that shows where your frequency is at. According to DD the peak should be at around 0.1 Hz, and there are several things you can read from just studying this graph.

I do not think, however, that this display is so extremely important that you would need it instead of buying a mobile-friendly device. The practice itself is the most important, and you will benefit much from it anyway.

I do like to see what frequencies I'm at, though, and I'm sure it will be interesting to hear more from DD about the sync between 0.1Hz and alpha at 10Hz. 

So those who wants the mobile-devices, go ahead. It would certainly be great to take this training to bed before you go to sleep.

[VastEmptiness]

Does one of you have experience or infos about reducing muscle tension with EMG? Can i use regular electrodes for it or do I need special ones? Any idea where to get a good design? Any information really appreciated.

I'll try this one from PN later, but no idea what it can do:

• wiz_test_Mode3_emg_ecg.bxd

[Ames]

Would anyone be kind enough to help me understand basic ILF configuration and operation using a TAGX1 design in BioExplorer? It's incomplete and probably incorrect, but for the purposes of having something to talk about:

-Put ground electrode wherever
-Put 1+ and 1- at an inter-hemispheric location e.g T4/T3.

I usually get confused about this and put 1+ on T3 out of habit. I think it probably does make a difference where the + and - go, since T4-T3 might be different from T3-T4. I need to experiment more with this to tell what the difference might be. In the protocol guide Douglas usually writes T3-T4.

 

 

This question is a big deal, I think (amongst others), toward clarifying TAGx1 (Bipolar ILF) operation. So, I wanted to address it because I ran across the answer. In the Othmer Protocol guide, it states that it does not matter at which site each (+,-) electrode is placed in bipolar training. The neurofeedback will be the same.

Edited by golgi1, 22 July 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[Ames]

As someone who is working through these protocols as a beginner, I think that it is helpful to post about any information that I find especially helpful or insightful so as to assist other beginers in grasping the essentials.

 

What this post is about is montages. I had read through most TAGSync material to include this entire thread, and had read several books, and hadn't yet grasped the essential differences in use between montages until I came across a simplified clarification in an Othmer paper. Knowing the general phiosophy of use of each type of montage will allow one to always implement the correct montage, even when directions aren't explicitly given, and to better categorize types of training even when their theoretical explanations are lacking or incomplete with the information that you have. Having a good grasp on montages is essential to demystifying neurofeedback and to conceptually moving forward.

 

 

Single Channel

 

Monopolar (Referential)

 

Use: Amplitude training, up or down / local synchrony.

 

Protocol examples that use a single channel monopolar montage: Any amplitude training (SMR, alpha, beta, etc.) at a single site.

 

Electrode placement and functional characteristics:

(+, active) at desired training site.

(-, reference) at ear (A1 or A2) on same hemispheric side as (+).

(Ground) anywhere but commonly at the other ear.

 

The (-) electrode subtracts pure noise from the signal (which is signal+noise)  at the (+) electrode, providing a better signal to noise ratio for training. A graphical explanation of the purpose of the reference electrode can be found here: http://www.quora.com...se-and-modeling.

 

Bipolar

 

Use: Desynchronization between two sites / dephasing between two sites / promotion of site-to-site differentiation.

 

"moves the brain toward stability" (Putman and Othmer, 2006)

 

Protocol examples that use a single channel bipolar montage: TAGX1, Othmer Infra-Low Frequency.

 

Electrode placement and functional characteristics:

(+) at site 1

(-) at site 2

(Ground) on either ear (A1 or A2).

 

Bipolar training trains the amplitude difference in the target frequency between two sites. The shown amplitude signal is not an absolute amplitude value at either site. One is training the amplitude difference between the sites and thus training for differentiation and independence of function at either site.

 

The initial focus is generally recommended to be on inter-hemispheric (often mirror) sites, but intra-hemispheric sites and other placements can be trained as necessarily dictated by specific case details.

 

 

Two channel

 

Monopolar (Referential)

 

Use: Global Phase Synchrony / Coherence between sites

 

Protocol examples that use a two channel monopolar montage: TAGX2, possibly other coherence protocols.

 

Electrode placement and functional characteristics:

(+1, active) at desired training site.

(-1, reference) at ear (A1 or A2) on same hemispheric side as (+1).

 

(+2, active) at desired training site.

(-2, reference) at ear (A1 or A2) on same hemispheric side as (+2).

 

(Ground) anywhere but commonly on the head at a midline site such as Cz.

 

Two channel monopolar montage electrodes behave in the same way at each channel as they do for a single channel monopolar montage.

 

The difference is that the neurofeedback software, with the TAGX2 design for instance, is programmed to reward phase (directional amplitude) synchrony between two frequencies at each active electrode at both channels. The single amplitude signal that you see, for alpha for instance, is likely the combined absolute alpha output at both channels. Thus, you are training the average amplitude output between sites as well as the synchronous phase between two frequencies at both sites.  

 

TAGX2 training is generally recommended along intrahemispheric or midline theoretical networks in the brain, such as the Default Mode Network (DFM) at the midline and the Task Positive Networks in either hemisphere. The site focus of this generally lateral synchrony training (monopolar) contrasts with the inter-hemispheric general focus of desynchrony training (Bipolar).

 

When more channels are added for eeg training, they are generally set up as monopolar montages.

 

Bipolar

 

There may be compelling theory or protocols that call for two channel bipolar training, but I am not personally aware of any at this point. Other posters may wish add some examples if they exist and if a discussion might be interesting. I'd imagine that the only point would be synchronous desynchronization? It seems to not make sense at first utternace, but that doesn't mean that a reason does not exist or could not be discovered.

 

 

Notes

 

This outline wasn't meant to list every matching protocol with each type of montage, but rather was simply meant to give a montage use overview with some protocol examples. Also, I attempted to explain some theoretical detail to the best of my ability, but I encourage and welcome corrections where necessary. I apologize in advance for any inaccuracies.

 

 

Edited by golgi1, 22 July 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[VastEmptiness]

Andrew Hill, Neuroscientist, long time Neurofeedback Practicioner and Nootropics-User/Distributor on Neurofeeback and SMR Training.

https://youtu.be/Khg...c0hBUfhHuRhP51y

[Ames]

So, TAGx1 rewards synchronous 2 frequency desynchronization between 2 sites?

 

It's not the same thing as Othmer ILF training. Until now, I had the impression that it was going to be. I like that DD includes the ILF training manual, but it doesn't address TAGx1 and its dual reward bins. Essentially, there is no TAGx1 theory nor instruction from DD other than whatever crosses over from ILF theory and instruction.  

 

Is there any research on the benefits of rewarding synchronous dephasing, more specifically what seems to be the desynchronization version of a phase reset? Unless I am misinterpreting what it is attempting to do. Though, being that bipolar training is explicitly a dephasing montage, I'm not sure how it could be attempting to do anything different.

 

It is pertinent that it doesn't reward single frequency desynchronization beween two sites, but only synchronous individual dephasing of two frequencies. In other words, it doesn't reward anything until a synchronous increase in differential amplitude occurs of two frequencies. If Delta and ILF both do not increase their individual differential amplitude at once, then the design has determined that nothing is rewarded. This seems strange to me. It's essentially implying that there is no value, at least for this protocol, in single frequency desynchronization without two frequencies doing so in phased synchrony. Why? There has to be some research to support this, if for nothing more than such a peculiar departure from a normal ILF design.

 

I had trouble getting a consistent signal with the TAGX1 design, and suspect the 1-60Hz BF1. I tried to lower the first threshold to -2.5, as suggested in this thread, but that made the signal go crazy and nothing worked.  Also, I pinned the theta inhibit bin to the top and had to turn it off. Though, I suppose I could have raised the display range. I used the DC offset. I attempted to train .2-.5 and 1-3. The reward signals would commonly freeze or move very little, especially delta.

 

Eventually, I altered a Brain Trainer SMR design and trained a single reward of .2-.5 at T3/T4 using video for feedback. That seemed to work well. I was consistently able to keep raising the threshold and definitely felt a small but significant state change. That's all I trained because I want to monitor myself for any effect over the next day.

 

Anyway, any insight into the theory or successful operation of TAGx1 would be appreciated. I feel like TAGx1 discussion is almost verboten as it is discussed so little despite its obvious difference from ILF! I'm looking forward to making that design work, and having some idea as to why I would train with it over a single reward ILF design.

Edited by golgi1, 23 July 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[Ames]

Andrew Hill, Neuroscientist, long time Neurofeedback Practicioner and Nootropics-User/Distributor on Neurofeeback and SMR Training.

https://youtu.be/Khg...c0hBUfhHuRhP51y

 

Andrew Hill posts at Longecity, I believe under the handle 'Salamandyr'. http://www.longecity...887-salamandyr/

 

He has many good posts on neurofeedback in at least one other thread.

 

I enjoyed his interview here:

 

https://vimeo.com/123168723

 

Thanks for posting the link. I thought that this was a good opportunity to consolidate Andrew Hill links for the thread.

Edited by golgi1, 23 July 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[Eratosthenes]

Deep States Training Part 1

Floating and Neurofeedback: Reprogramming the Unconscious

(So this started out as a post with a link to a video and a bit of commentary, and then I fell down a fascinating rabbit hole of reading and research. And a short post became a long essay still in progress. To make it easier to read, I am breaking it up into parts.)



In this video Jay Gunkelman talks about some research he did about 40 years ago combing NFB and floating simultaneously. I’ll provide a summary.

After some history about the state of mental hospitals in the US, he describes his experiment conducted at a mental hospital and its results which were never published because he and his lab partner deemed the knowledge to be too dangerous.

They did the following: based on the therapeutic theories of the time, the thinking was that their patients were carrying around negative beliefs/self-images/imprints/scripts that they had picked up as children when they didn’t know any better. These were “unconscious” and structured their day to day experience the same way the contours of landscape determine the flow of water over that land. Because these imprints were “unconscious,” ordinary therapy, rational thinking, etc didn’t work to fundamentally shift them. Just like putting more water in a river doesn’t fundamentally change its path (except over very long time periods). So each patient, in cooperation with their therapist, identified the problematic imprint and crafted a new substitute message, one positive and more functional. Based on the idea that theta is associated with the unconscious, this message would be “re-imprinted” on the unconscious by using theta NFB while floating.

(Not mentioned in the talk, but supporting the rational for using theta for this purpose, is the fact the children’s brainwaves have a greater amount of theta activity compared to adults, with theta frequencies as their dominant rhythm, infants have dominant delta, etc. So if you want to re-pattern it helps to access the same state as when the pattern was laid down. Psychological research calls this state-dependent memory, learning and behavior.) To return to our earlier analogy, theta NFB is like fundamentally shifting the landscape by adding or removing dirt. If you change the contours–imprints–enough, you totally shift the way the water–everyday experience–flows. And the watery environment of the tank potentiates this.

To do this they built a NFB system that played pink noise audio in the tank when the EEG was at frequencies above theta (i.e.: when the “conscious” mind was operating). This noise would apparently fade into the background for the person in the tank. When the EEG was at theta frequencies, a recording of the new positive message was played. They had the patient record it earlier, since apparently it can be jarring to have someone else’s voice in your head. If the patient’s EEG departed from the theta band, the pink noise would resume. Thus the message would only be presented to the “unconscious.” (Okay, Eratosthenes, you may be asking now, why do you keep using the quotes around “unconscious?” Well, it’s not truly unconscious if you can identify the script, it’s just that you can’t change it from your everyday state of mind. From a more contemporary perspective we might talk more about implicit memory, learning and behavior.)

OK, so after all that explanation, how well did it actually work? Very well apparently. All patients successfully re-imprinted the unwanted message in only 5 sessions within a one week period. Gunkelman said they had dramatic life changes and dramatic changes in their self-images. (Caveats, obviously a very small trial, no controls.)

OK, so if the results were so good why was this never published or pursued by Gunkelman or his partner?

At the time, he and his partner were worried about abuse by the US Government. This was during Watergate and Vietnam etc.
(Of course, today, things are totally different. Look how far we’ve come in 40 years. I mean, now, we go for 2 foreign wars at a time, those amateurs could only handle one in Vietnam. And, hey, when the government actually tortures people, why worry about them messing around with only reprogramming people’s minds? /Sarcasm.)

But honestly, I can see why he never published this. I almost didn’t post this, since I consider this knowledge to be “Dark Arts” in that it’s potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. But ultimately, the potential for benefit seems to outweigh the danger.

So, one reason this is so interesting to me is that I have a background of using and studying hypnosis. In a way, this protocol is hypnosis on steroids. This form of NFB aparently gives you the advantage of knowing when you’re actually accessing the unconscious and only providing the information then, bypassing resistance and increasing efficiency.

And you don’t actually need a float tank to do this re-scripting, although that may work faster or better. In subsequent parts of this essay, I’ll talk about how to do this and provide an outline for a design. I’ll also talk about how the dangers of doing this to yourself and provide some safety guidelines. And, I’ll also talk about why you might not actually want to do it in the first place. Finally, tying all this back to TAGSync, I’ll talk about the history of deep states training more generally.

I had a lot of fun going down the research rabbit-hole on this one but it’s going to take some time to write everything up. And more importantly, I need to make sure I have some balance between time spent on *actually doing neurofeedback*, and time spent on reading and researching *about neurofeedback*.

PS: Longecity is filled with intrepid self-experimenters which can be awesome. This should go without saying, but be safe if you experiment with this. Don’t try NFB in a tank unless you are sure you know how to not electrocute yourself or damage your equipment. And just as importantly, don’t reprogram your subconscious mind recklessly. I’ll lay out some guidelines in subsequent posts. And talk about why it might not even be necessary or advisible.

Edited by Eratosthenes, 24 July 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Eratosthenes]

Deep States Training Part 2:

An Aside on Combining Floating and Neurofeedback:

Reprogramming aside, floating alone is probably a very strong amplifier of NFB. Basically it removes all other input so the brain *only* gets the NFB. From an information theory standpoint, the signal has much better resolution with the removal of the noise of sensory input.

Combining the two simultaneously likey shortens the time to a given NFB outcome. I do wonder, though, if it works best for deep states training (like Alpha-Theta and TAGSync) and not so well for trainings that aim to increase alertness.

I personally don’t have any first hand experience with tanks since there aren’t any nearby. Bobby and Matty72, you mentioned you have ongoing access to float tanks. If you can safely (without electrocuting yourself!) figure out a way to do NFB while in the tank I’d be super interested in your experiences. Or anyone else for that matter.
 

Edited by Eratosthenes, 24 July 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Alin Samson]

Funny thing you mention that,two weeks ago I had my first floatation experience and I do remember the after the session ended, one of my first thoughts was how crazy would be to combine this with NF.It is truly a very relaxing experience and more than that.I think that the tank is perceived at unconcious level with a mother's womb and potentially could have and huge impact on perinatal traumas and the COEX's associated with that experience .Next weekend I am planning to return to Holland to try it again and directly after that to do a NF session and on top of that to combine it with Alexander Lowen's  bioenergetic therapy.Just,take a good look at the picture and tell me is the shape doesn't resemblance with a vagina,metaphorically speaking

 

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Edited by Alin Samson, 24 July 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Crowstream]

@Eratosthenes

 

That is extremely interesting, I had no idea that Gunkelman was into float tanks also... NFB and float tanks are some of my main intrests  . I have the new Zen Float tent but the pump and heating system keeps breaking down for me (faulty GFCIs I think), they say they are working on a new upgrade to fix those problems but until then I dont think I can use my tank  . I have been thinking about how to record the EEG in the water, I have not come up with any clear solution so far, Gunkelman mentions using glue and petroleum jelly but that sounds kind of nasty hehe, he also mentions new dry electrodes and that sounds a lot more promising, I wonder if it would work with the Q-wiz and bioexplorer setup though... Maybe we can figure out a way to hack it somehow, if anyone has ideas on that I am highly interested, I think it would be very useful for consciousness research.

 

I have already found out that you can buy underwater headphones and such so that should not be a problem, maybe speakers can be used too but the sound might become a bit distorted if your ears are under water, perhaps if you saturate the water with enough salt your ears could float above the water line, I am not sure really. Some people use float pillows that could perhaps keep the ears above water and then it would be ok to use speakers I think which would be a bit easier.

 

I think the float tank probably makes it a whole lot easier to enter the theta state, I think I have had that happen to me in the tank but no way of knowing for sure without recording the EEG. I have been thinking about what kind of NFB setups to use, perhaps it could be a feedback signal that activates when you are out of the theta state, and it guides you back to it and then becomes silent as long as you remain there, that way it would not be so disturbing and would only activate when needed, eventually perhaps you would learn how to access this state so well that feedback would hardly be needed any more.

 

I know that Tom Budzynski used similar methods that Gunkelman described, for similar purposes but without floatation tanks, you can find out more about it here: http://www.futurehea...100215-169.html

 

Here are some of my notes from this talk:

Theta training:

-IN the 70s Tom B. wanted to get rid of "the voice" that stopped depressed people from self-affirming, current studies showed that as you lower cortical arousal information processing changes from being critical to being more accepting, the Kung tribe make their patients dance until they collapse and then the shaman come and help them, other people have people go into deep trances before doing rituals, you have to get the conscious mind out of the way, people who use ayahuasca and other drugs all know these rules, they would go into special states where they could see the future

-There are many brain-states that are mostly unexplored by science, there are things you can achieve, Aldous Huxley talked about "the valve", getting rid of this opens your mind to possibilities

-Jim Hardt has identified brain-states associated with E.T. contact, he opens the brain up with alpha, you idle part of the neocortex which lets you get to lower/more primitive brain functioning, our ancestors were much more tuned in to these influences, we shut down the valve with our left-brain development

-Tests of successful CEOs showed they are highly intuitive, they are sort of psychic, their decisions are based on flimsy data a lot of the time, they use intuition instead

-The right brain has special properties

-Tom B. studied left handers, they can be double left or double right, Mozarts handwriting was terrible and his grammar was bad, it also gave him child-like qualities, he made the left-brained people jelous, genius is often identified in the right hemisphere of the brain

-What is a double right? Has right-brain functions in both hemispheres, a double left is opposite - double rights in sports, entertainment, artists etc, right brains get in trouble because they dont obey the law, frontal lobes inhibit this but they can only do so much

 

Twilight learning:

-EEG over the left hemisphere, get this to go to sleep, wait until it gets to theta (using a pink-noise which sounds like a wave kind of), when you do this the machine detects the state and it starts a tape-recorder, when you go out of theta the tape-recorder stops, if you go to sleep then it gets louder (bump-effect)

 

 

I think in general the left hemisphere is more concerned with "the narrative", which is our ongoing representation of what we think is happening, and can therefore perceive in distorted ways if these representations are inaccurate in any way, the right hemisphere deals more with "the unknown" which is not yet expressible in language, it has more to do with feeling, intuition etc. I suppose you might say conscious/unconscious although that is not quite accurate since we can be quite conscious of what the right hemisphere perceives, I think it is more like it is in an early stage of coming in to consciousness which makes sense I think since we first cannot describe in language what we perceive, these are the ineffable and mysterious qualities of life.

Elkhonon Goldberg (student of Luria) has developed a model of the hemispheres which proposes that the right hemisphere deals primarily with novelty, while the left deals more with routine, this makes sense I think and can for example explain why the left hemisphere seems to be the linguistic hemisphere, because in most adults language is very much a learned routine. It has been found that novel tasks preferably activate the right, frontal hemisphere and as the task becomes increasingly routine the activation moves to the left and to the back of the brain, this means that as we build routines they become like "mental machines" that we can store in the left back of the head... This would include our ongoing narrative of life since we are practicing this all the time and use it to explain everything, this is neither good nor bad I think but a necessary fact of life, the problem I think arises when these representations are dysfunctional for living, they become like inner voices that tell us what we can and cannot do, like sub-personalities (in psychoanalytic terms the psyche is inhabited by sub-personalities).

 

I think what these theta re-programming techniques is attempting to do then is to start editing the ongoing narratives towards a chosen end, which takes the form of the new recording that is played. I guess it would be like attempting to cultivate the ecology of sub-personalities (I like thinking about the psyche in these terms, as sub-personalities rather than "scripts", I dont like the more modern cognitive psychological terms which treats people like computers, which I dont think we are really...but that might not be relevant, I guess you can call them scripts or whatever).

 

This is an interesting approach I think and I think it would be worthwhile to explore it. The way I see it however it is a kind of "top-down" approach of attempting to enforce an effect in the psyche, because the conscious mind or ego will choose what it thinks the change should be and then attempts to create this change, that might be alright and useful sometimes.

 

I think I prefer a more "bottom-up" approach though, which would be more to open up and allow direct experience to transform you, this approach would admit that the ego is necessarily limited and might not know what is best and instead seek the solution in the unknown, in the chaos that lies beyond the ego representations so to speak. How I think this could be practiced is to also use flotation tanks and theta feedback for example, but to get to those states in order to have experiences that in turn end up transforming the narratives, mystical experiences if you will or experiences of places beyond the ordinary reality. A shamanic journeying or Gnostic initiation approach into the unknown realms of mystery and wonder. In modern psychological terms it would be more like the Jungian approach of the individuals journey towards wholeness.

 

I guess it might be a matter of philosophical preferences, I guess both approaches may work, and I intend to attempt to explore both, in time as I get my flotation tank up and running and perhaps also some way of recording the EEG in those states.

I would be curious to hear more about your experiences with hypnosis, I could be entirely confused in the way I perceive this of course, I have no experience with hypnosis so I would like to hear more about that  .