707 replies to this topic

[zensauce]

Thanks for the reply, Golgi, and I apologize for the lack of clarity in my post. What I meant was that I prefer how the actual brain master unit works with the brain master software as opposed to the bioexplorer software, and as such I wanted to know if I could setup a tag sync x2 design on brain master (I thought I saw a post elsewhere mentioning that it was possible, though I can't remember where). Thanks for the information, and I'm sure I'll figure it out.

Also, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with regular alpha-theta neurofeedback prior to tag sync, and could share their experience as to how they feel it differs (in terms of results, etc.) from tag sync x2? There is a lot of literature regarding alpha-theta nfb, especially in terms of its ability to aid in addiction recovery, though I find it interesting that tag sync x2 is often described as more a "peak performance" or intelligence booster trainer, especially since the only main difference (as far as I am aware) is that 5 minutes of gamma training is added on per session (and perhaps the addition on one more channel, as I believe regular alpha theta can be done with just single channel).

Thanks in advance.

[Healthy Frank]

Hello all, i am considering savin up 15k for the biocybernaut alpha one trainin that supposedly puts you in zen states in 7 days... curious if anyone has tried this or read about this it's also called 40 years of zen... I'm pretty sure we could replicate the training done there on a home neurofeedback kit... but i'm not sure... any thoughts on this would be great.. also, I think alpha one training is similar to Tag in that they are both attempting to replicate the states of zen meditators...

[Meggo]

enlightenment is an insight not a brain state...

Edited by Meggo, 03 August 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[Alin Samson]

Well,if you read the latest works in Neurotheology,apparently Enlightenment is a state of being and ultimately a state of brain.My 2 cents !

[Sebster]

Enlightenment is a state of being and state of the brain for sure.  It depends how you look at it.

In my view of the brain is that it is like a radio antenna, it needs to be able tune in to different modes/states/awareness this needs to be trained somewhow. and When you come to place where its trained enough so that you can switch between these different states/modes/awareness easly  you are in my view of the world "enligthened", and this is also when you dont need any more formal meditation.

And when people call it insight or sudden awakenings It is in my world view when the brain gets a strong enough stimulus(huge phase reset?) to create new patterns within the brain and then the  individual realize there is more then  normal modes of awareness and get a the oppertunity to switch between these ne new patterns.

 

[Healthy Frank]

i agree, though you may have insights when you reach enlightenment, (I read a review of the zen training where the guy said he weeped with joy for 20 minutes and felt like everything made sense) i think we've discovered that it is indeed a brain state. Many of the pioneers in the field went to India and studied the brains of zen monks (widely considered to be enlightened) an found what they found to be different from an average person's brain... training to imitate those states has shown to produce increased happiness, awareness, etc. So the case is in their favor i would think

[Meggo]

Well, if you read the latest works in Neurotheology, apparently Enlightenment is a state of being and ultimately a state of brain

 

There is no being in enlightenment. No being anything, with anything, a something, higher something, being nothing or anything else in enlightenment. 

 

...and state of the brain for sure

 

i thing it is called naive realism if you think brains exist.

 

...to different modes/states/awareness

 

there are no different "modes" of awareness.

 

to create new patterns..

 

new patterns take time, in my experience it can be very sudden.

 

normal modes of awareness and get a the oppertunity to switch between these ne new patterns

 

there are no "modes" of awareness and therefore no need to switch between them

 

though you may have insights when you reach enlightenment

 

enlightenment is not a place where u look around and see stuff called insights... there is no coming to enlightenment without prior insight. insight is the only door to enlightenment.  

 

i think we've discovered that it is indeed a brain state

 

i'm sorry but you don't even know what enlightenment is and then to say "we" have already discovered it is a bit strange

 

Many of the pioneers in the field went to India and studied the brains of zen monks (widely considered to be enlightened) 

 

actually there are very few living monks i know of who i consider to be even stream enterers. which is only the first stage...

 

training to imitate those states...

 

let say you are lying in ur bed at night afraid of a monster in your cupboard. night after night u lie there without sleep. it is a big problem for you so u have several options now

 

1) u go to a therapist and do a year long therapy... after a year or so u can sleep again. somebody scans ur brain an tells people they should imitate ur brainwaves, because this is the right state of mind to be in if you want to sleep at night and have monster problems

 

2) you take xanax. you can sleep. somebody scans ur brain again says thats the right state to be in.

 

3) u do concentration meditation to suppress your thoughts about the monster. u can sleep. somebody scans ur brain, is very impressed.

 

4) you open the fckng cupboard and u find out there is no monster in it. takes a second for the insight to kick in. u can sleep 4ever. somebody scans ur brain, finds out its completely normal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bobity]

Hello all, i am considering savin up 15k for the biocybernaut alpha one trainin that supposedly puts you in zen states in 7 days... curious if anyone has tried this or read about this it's also called 40 years of zen... I'm pretty sure we could replicate the training done there on a home neurofeedback kit... but i'm not sure... any thoughts on this would be great.. also, I think alpha one training is similar to Tag in that they are both attempting to replicate the states of zen meditators...

 

Be intested to see what you make of it and what you actually come away with after a week. I've looked at this before when I had more money than I have now and was very temped in the past.  I'm pretty happy with what TAGsync, Braintrainer and HEG are currently doing.  I'd be more inclined to spend £4k on one of these - pandorastar.co.uk - Instant DMT ! 
 

[Bobity]

Been thinking all this paste and caps 7 goo is a bit messy & tedious.  Does anyone know of anyone doing anything with ultrasensitve mangnets to pick up eeg like signals without the mess ?  A crash helmet with imbedded magnets you put on and off you go ... 

[Ames]

I was curious if someone could elucidate in concise terms how TAGsync is meant to affect the Default Mode Network.

 

I've been pouring through studies and have come up with a lot of conflicting information on what TAGSync is probably doing in reference to the DMN.

 

If I am correct, we are working from the premise that more often deactivated (to put it in general terms) DMN is the desired result. For this conversation, I'm ignoring other aspects of desired brain function but feel free to reintroduce them if it helps explain what I am missing.  

 

Some studies point to the fact that frontal midline theta is a sign of deactivated DMN. Another study points to the fact that strong posterior alpha is a sign of activated DMN, implying that more resources being directed to internal thought (during increased posterior alpha with eyes closed for example). Still, another study points to decreased gamma and theta in frontal locations in advanced meditators with more inactive DMNs. This would contradict what we are doing in TAGsync, but the protocol is validated by other studies that contradict this one.

 

Feel free to cite articles that would best help explain the concept. I have most of DD's cited articles, and while I have not gotten through all of them I am having trouble resolving the seeming contradictions.

 

Also, I am interested in monopolar frontal midline theta training. Higher frontal midline theta is correlated to a mechanism for "optimally adjusting behavior to uncertainty, a hallmark of situations that elicit anxiety and demand cognitive control" as well as DMN inactivity. I was curious if anyone had any experience uptraining theta amplitude at Fz. I've been a horrid daydreamer for my entire life, and could likely specifically use a DMN down-adjustment. That may be what we are doing with TAGsync, but I am having trouble verifying it in the research.

Edited by golgi1, 04 August 2015 - 07:58 PM.

[Ames]

Been thinking all this paste and caps 7 goo is a bit messy & tedious.  Does anyone know of anyone doing anything with ultrasensitve mangnets to pick up eeg like signals without the mess ?  A crash helmet with imbedded magnets you put on and off you go ... 

 

Dry electrodes exist but they are expensive and supposedly the signal is noisy.

[Ames]

Thanks for the reply, Golgi, and I apologize for the lack of clarity in my post. What I meant was that I prefer how the actual brain master unit works with the brain master software as opposed to the bioexplorer software, and as such I wanted to know if I could setup a tag sync x2 design on brain master (I thought I saw a post elsewhere mentioning that it was possible, though I can't remember where). Thanks for the information, and I'm sure I'll figure it out.

Also, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with regular alpha-theta neurofeedback prior to tag sync, and could share their experience as to how they feel it differs (in terms of results, etc.) from tag sync x2? There is a lot of literature regarding alpha-theta nfb, especially in terms of its ability to aid in addiction recovery, though I find it interesting that tag sync x2 is often described as more a "peak performance" or intelligence booster trainer, especially since the only main difference (as far as I am aware) is that 5 minutes of gamma training is added on per session (and perhaps the addition on one more channel, as I believe regular alpha theta can be done with just single channel).

Thanks in advance.

 

Looking back, you weren't unclear. I had read your post too fast.

 

Traditional alpha-theta nfb, as far as I understand it, is a single channel monopolar protocol at occipital or parietal positions. It trains for alpha-theta "crossover", though I'm unclear on exactly what "crossover" means because I haven't yet run such a session. Though, it is on my list to do so and I will report back when I do. TAGSyncx2 is a dual channel design that trains, as you know, for coherence. Due to the difference in the manner in which the electrodes are set-up and the information processed through the amplifier, the protocols and what they hope to accomplish are more or less innately different. One trains a communication network and the other trains local amplitude in some manner.  That's how I understand the difference at this point, anyway. Personally, I wouldn't assume that they are the same or that one is superior to the other, for any specific training goal, before I tried both at length. You might be able to use TAGX1 for alpha-theta, but personally I would not assume that as I am not yet to the level where I am looking at the signal diagram and am readily able to determine how the signal is being processed into the feedback bin. I'd only assume that it can be used as it was designed to be, meaning in a bipolar montage. Though, as you might be able to tell, I'm not exactly 100% on any of this. Corrections from other forum members may be forthcoming.

 

[Crowstream]

@zensauce

 

In my experience alpha-theta and TAG sync are a bit similar but not the same kind of protocol. I think golgi explained it pretty well, the "crossover" I think is when theta has a higher amplitude than alpha... this has to do with sleep stages, there is a lot of research on this, if you are interested you can check out Gerald Ulrichs blog (a german psychiatrist and EEG researcher): https://ulricheeg.wo...ilance/#more-74

 

The second picture there says A, B, C, D, E, with substages A1, A2, A3 etc... These are various stages of wakefulness where an A1 is fully awake, as we transition into sleep we pass through these stages, which is detectable on the EEG.

 

Perhaps you have experienced a "twilight" state between wakefulness and sleep where you are aware, but still almost sleeping, it usually happens when we go to sleep or wake up although we can pass through it quickly without noticing. In this state we may remember our dreams, they will be more vivid and perhaps we can even visualize and see them in a way.

 

Our ability for creativity, visualization and imagination is heightened in this state, thats why you may have for example heard of how Salvador Dali would sit and fall asleep with a metal spoon in his hand with a metal tray under him, so that when he dozed off to sleep he would drop the spoon and it would wake him, he used this method for receiving creative flashes that he would make in to works of art... Similarly I have read that Thomas Edison used a similar method but for getting ideas on his inventions.

 

On the EEG this state is characterized by decreased alpha (which dominates in the A states which are wakefulness) and theta may increase. The alpha-theta protocols will usually also have a delta inhibit, which keeps us from really going to sleep so it is set up to allow us to stay in this between state of wakefulness and sleep. It has been found that this can be an effective way of resolving very deep-seated trauma that could not be treated in any other known ways, I think it probably also has great potential for creativity so it might also be interesting for inventors, artists etc...

 

TAG Sync does not work like this, you are usually training the simultaneous amplitude increase of both alpha and theta (and sometimes you train with gamma too), which signals a different kind of mental state in my opinion, it can have similar kinds of effects I think because you may be integrating these different systems, allowing information transfer to increase. I have found my ability to visualize has  increased, the "theta-mindstate" is probably always active but to different degrees, when it becomes dominant we are in this twilight state of half-sleep but it is probably also somewhat active in wakefulness... 

 

@Healthy Frank

 

I have been interested in the 40 years of Zen training for ages now  , it is one of the reasons why I got in to neurofeedback... I have mapped out their methods as well as I have been able to, I found the patent for their technology online and it contains quite a lot of technical information that I used to create a design, some of the features were not possible to recreate in bioexplorer, for example Dr Hardt stresses the effect of light on alpha levels (darkness increases alpha and also certain kinds of shapes can even effect alpha) so in 40 years of Zen they do eyes closed training and like every 2 minutes or so a screen will light up with average scores and then it turns dark again... this is not possible to do in bioexplorer so I just created visual scores that average over 2 minutes so you can train with eyes closed and then look on it occasionally.

 

In their Alpha One training they use 4 sites: O1, O2, C3, C4 - which is possible in bioexplorer, however they also use 4 speakers so the sounds come from different places... so far I have been unable to replicate this, hza had some ideas on how to do it so it may be possible, not sure how important it would be.

 

Their Alpha Two+ levels cant be replicated with bioexplorer+Q-wiz setup as far as I know, it uses 8 channels I think.

 

Even the frequency of the feedback sounds are specific, they have to be 400-800 Hz which is optimal for alpha feedback according to Dr Hardt...

 

 

Anyways my protocol is probably not exactly like 40 years of Zen, but it is as close as I could think to make it with the setup I have. I havent used it very much because I have so many neurofeedback protocols to try, I am usually training an hour a day or so but still havent gotten around to trying this protocol out much, partly because I already have huge alpha amplitudes so I might not need to increase them further (although Dr Hardt seems to think more alpha is always better  , this is a contested topic I think, some people seem to think alpha also needs to be balanced and you dont want too much of it, but who knows eh  ).

 

Also I think that 40 years of Zen is much more then neurofeedback training, it is heavily focused on therapy with psychologists as far as I understand it, the 7 day training might include about 12 hours of neurofeedback training, but a lot of time is spent in group therapy I think. I read a review about this but I cant seem to find it now, anyways the guy thought that essentially it was kind of over-priced group therapy, he thought if he wanted that he could pay way less for it, I think he was still overall slightly positive about the whole program so the combination might be worth it.

 

They also use the forgiveness techniques developed by Dr Hawkins, described in this book I think: http://www.amazon.co...kins letting go

Maybe you should check that out to see if you think it is for you. For optimal results I think you should be prepared to do a lot of forgiveness work, some people are unwilling to do this and then the program might not be as effective.

 

They also make use of computerized personality/mood psychological scales that automatically check the timing of your responses and calculates the probability of repressions in certain areas, this is used for the therapy and the alpha measures the degree to which you have actually let go of the material, the whole thing is an integrated process I think so you cant just use a neurofeedback protocol.

 

 

@golgi

 

I have not really understood TAG Sync theory yet, but heres what I think may be happening... I think it is probably not about activation or deactivation of brain areas, it is more about facilitating the evolutionary flow of the system as a whole. TAG Sync utilizes the physics of flow in the Constructal Law which states: "For a finite-size system to persist in time (to live), it must evolve in such a way that it provides easier access to the imposed currents that flow through it."

Our brain is a flow system too and I think neurofeedback training may work on the brains capacity to evolve flow over time.

 

The appearance of synchrony signals phase resets which occur at self-organized criticality... which occurs at the peak fulcrum of control and undercontrol, this is a delicate balance so one cannot say it is merely the increase or decrease of activation.

 

The organization of the brain networks into small-world networks is also important because that type of network maximizes information transfer and efficiency in the brain so I would say probably increases the probability that we will see increased synchrony and cross-frequency coupling.

 

It is all interconnected so when we train to increase synchrony and CFC our brains become more like small-world networks, which supports the emergence of self-organized criticality and flow (constructal law) which in behavioral terms gives us increased adaptability and maturation... Hope that makes sense and hopefully someone can correct me if I have misunderstood these theories, it is a lot to take in and I am still learning   .

[Bobity]

It took a little longer than expected to obtain some long eeg electrodes that would reach down into my tank (Its buried underground, under the floor of a shed at the end of my back garden).  Having got them I had to figure out how to hook them up without mishap.  I also bought a silocone swimming hat from Amazon : http://www.amazon.co...ailpage_o01_s00

 

Then it was a question of figuring out how best to wire the electrodes, the emwave2 sensor and the earbuds so as to keep the water away from the electrodes & emwave2 sensor.

 

I put the electrodes on so that the wires exited from the hat via my forehead – this was so as to minimise the risk of having water follow the electrode wires back under the cap.  I put the h2audio ear buds on so that the wires exited the hat below my ears via my neck.  I connected the emwave2 sensor to one of my nostrils because it was too bulky to fit comfortably under the hat and still watertight seal.  I had to replace the emwave2 usb lead with a longer one and add an extension lead to the h2audio  buds lead so the wire would reach far enough down.  I covered the emwave2 lights with black gaffa tape and put it in a sealing polythene bag with usb and sensor wires coming out and when I got in the tank made sure the emwave2 and the h2audio lead junction were always above the water and rested on my chest while I floated.

 

Before getting into the tank I connected the electrode wires to the qwiz, connected the emwave2 usb and h2audio to the laptop jack and then started emwave2 and Bioexplorer to run a Tagx2 Alpha Theta design on Fz Pz with Cz as earth and A1/A2 linked.

 

At first when I got into the tank I left the roof door open so there was light initially in case I needed to get out for any reason.  After 10-15 minutes of relaxing into the space and feeling safe and following the hrv and nfb sounds I felt it was time to shut the door.  The silicone swimming hat although tight really is the biz as far as keeping water away from the electrodes.

 

Now in the darkness, floating in the water I began to wonder if it really makes much difference.  I appeared to be getting similar audio responses from the hrv and TAGx2 as I would training out of the tank eyes closed.  I spent about 40 minutes training in tank in the dark with the same design before I got out.  

 

It was only later on throughout the day that I realised how much more of a deeper lasting impact training in the tank has over how I normally train.  I felt very deeply relaxed, connected,  engaged and present all day,  to the extent that it almost felt like I had taken some form of mild sensory enhancer or hallucinogen.  Everything had and still has an extra sparkle.

 

During the day it occurred to me that for subsequent tank nfb sessions I should code a Windows macro (I have an excellent  Windows Automation product called Macro Express) to run Bioexplorer for me while in the tank,  especially if I can get the BT eeg CAP to work successfully with the swimming hat.  That way I could experiment with a number of designs in a single session without having to come out of the tank and fiddle with laptop and electrodes.  

 

All in all I’d thoroughly recommend nfb while floating and look forwards to many more sessions.

[hza]

My bare-bones understanding of what TAG Sync does comes essentially from Dailey's remarks and not so much his formal writings, so I also don't understand much of the actual workings of it.  But what I gather--a great deal of which is simply speculative extrapolation from what Dailey and others here have written--is that in the small-world network model of the brain, when all the various hubs function and connect with each other optimally, the system as a whole also functions healthily and to the degree of high performance that the "hardware," ie neurological development, will allow. 

 

Problems arise when communication between hubs is impeded or outright disabled, generally as a result of trauma which can fall under any number of descriptions, and can be physical or emotional in nature.  If two (or more) hubs have a disrupted flow of "information" between them, you can run TAG x2 sessions with an electrode on each point until the ability to connect properly is rehabilitated. 

 

The specifics of this is still a good deal beyond me, but in any event you can view TAG Sync as primarily a therapy to get all the nodes in the communication network connecting properly again.  Once free communicative ability is restored, specific impediments like poor language processing or emotional restraint are corrected while the proper equilibrium of the overall network is reestablished.  I sort of imagine a complex pressure system where a kink in a hose at one point causes abnormally high pressure at one end where flow is restricted and abnormally low pressure where the information flow is weakened, and TAG Sync is an intervention targeted to the major hubs to get the kinks out.

 

I've been wondering a lot about the functional difference between running TAG x2 in a monopolar setup and TAG x1 as a bipolar training, and whether it might not be a good idea to do both for any given pair of sites, just to ensure maximum benefit. 

 

It's also occurred to me lately as a result of getting reacquainted with personality types (mainly the Enneagram model) how much of this is determined by network organization, i.e., does a more creative or visionary type have an exceptionally strong network among the brain sites associated with those abilities while having normal or even weak capacities elsewhere?  Could extensive TAG training targeted to strengthen ALL network connections produce over time an actual shift in one's personality type, or possibly even create a situation in which one could switch back and forth as needed?  That would be a massive break with the current models which state that a person's type is permanent, and can only alter between states of healthy and unhealthy expression.  I suspect that no matter the level of intervention, a dominant network style will tend to assert itself, but it would make for a fascinating study to see if long term training could produce a targeted effect in moving a subject from one dominant style to another.  Anyway, that's a loose thought, but something I'd been wanting to mention.

 

I have not really understood TAG Sync theory yet, but heres what I think may be happening... I think it is probably not about activation or deactivation of brain areas, it is more about facilitating the evolutionary flow of the system as a whole. TAG Sync utilizes the physics of flow in the Constructal Law which states: "For a finite-size system to persist in time (to live), it must evolve in such a way that it provides easier access to the imposed currents that flow through it."

Our brain is a flow system too and I think neurofeedback training may work on the brains capacity to evolve flow over time.

 

The appearance of synchrony signals phase resets which occur at self-organized criticality... which occurs at the peak fulcrum of control and undercontrol, this is a delicate balance so one cannot say it is merely the increase or decrease of activation.

 

The organization of the brain networks into small-world networks is also important because that type of network maximizes information transfer and efficiency in the brain so I would say probably increases the probability that we will see increased synchrony and cross-frequency coupling.

 

It is all interconnected so when we train to increase synchrony and CFC our brains become more like small-world networks, which supports the emergence of self-organized criticality and flow (constructal law) which in behavioral terms gives us increased adaptability and maturation... Hope that makes sense and hopefully someone can correct me if I have misunderstood these theories, it is a lot to take in and I am still learning   .

 

[Ames]

Thanks for the reply Crowstream and hza. I had a longer response typed out, but I deleted it by mistake.

 

As a word of warning to anyone following the thread, and based on my own experience, I don't recommend frequency pure amplitude training to anyone who is not doing so outside of a training plan devised by a more experienced clinician; even if it matches some research and seems to be well suited to your symptoms. The brain is complex, and studies don't always capture the entire picture. I've had nothing but gentle, good experiences with ratio training, bipolar training, and TAGsync (phase coherence) training. I've had some undesirable side effects from frequency absolute amplitide training. Though, the experience was valuable in that it has taught me what not to do. If anyone wanted to train beta or theta at a location for instance, for whatever reason, I would recommend only training it in a ratio, phase sync, or bipolar design based on common agreement that doing so in a desired direction is generally good for everyone. For instance, it is commonly agreed that having a certain theta/gamma ratio is good, or that having more beta at the left frontal lobe is better than relative beta dominance favoring the right frontal lobe. What these training schemes have in common, other than phase coherehnce sync, is that they are based on relative measures rather than measures of absolute amplitude power. Thus, they should be inherently safer. This is my experience. Also, with this in mind, I think that the neurofeedback discussion has outgrown this and the single other thread on it, and it could use its own forum section for more targeted discussion of all paradigms within nfb.

 

 

Edited by golgi1, 10 August 2015 - 01:05 AM.

[hza]

Hey Golgi, quick question:  what is "frequency pure amplitude training?"  Is that like training a certain site to a specified amplitude and frequency in order to match a desirable qEEG value? 

 

I don't mind the freewheeling discussion here as far as it goes, as TAG Sync naturally fits into a broader EEG training experience for probably most of us.  I do wish though that I could load all the replies on one single page so I can scan up and down for specific earlier posts, because it's way too much hassle to try to guess which of the 15 pages has the information I want to dig back up.  it'd take a full day to find a handful of old posts that I'd like to revisit.  Maybe I should buy a printer and just make a hard copy of the thread .

Thanks for the reply Crowstream and hza. I had a longer response typed out, but I deleted it by mistake.

 

As a word of warning to anyone following the thread, and based on my own experience, I don't recommend frequency pure amplitude training to anyone who is not doing so outside of a training plan devised by a more experienced clinician; even if it matches some research and seems to be well suited to your symptoms. The brain is complex, and studies don't always capture the entire picture. I've had nothing but gentle, good experiences with ratio training, bipolar training, and TAGsync (phase coherence) training. I've had some undesirable side effects from frequency absolute amplitide training. Though, the experience was valuable in that it has taught me what not to do. If anyone wanted to train beta or theta at a location for instance, for whatever reason, I would recommend only training it in a ratio, phase sync, or bipolar design based on common agreement that doing so in a desired direction is generally good for everyone. For instance, it is commonly agreed that having a certain theta/gamma ratio is good, or that having more beta at the left frontal lobe is better than relative beta dominance favoring the right frontal lobe. What these training schemes have in common, other than phase coherehnce sync, is that they are based on relative measures rather than measures of absolute amplitude power. Thus, they should be inherently safer. This is my experience. Also, with this in mind, I think that the neurofeedback discussion has outgrown this and the single other thread on it, and it could use its own forum section for more targeted discussion of all paradigms within nfb.

 

[Ames]

 

Hey Golgi, quick question:  what is "frequency pure amplitude training?"  Is that like training a certain site to a specified amplitude and frequency in order to match a desirable qEEG value? 

 

I don't mind the freewheeling discussion here as far as it goes, as TAG Sync naturally fits into a broader EEG training experience for probably most of us.  I do wish though that I could load all the replies on one single page so I can scan up and down for specific earlier posts, because it's way too much hassle to try to guess which of the 15 pages has the information I want to dig back up.  it'd take a full day to find a handful of old posts that I'd like to revisit.  Maybe I should buy a printer and just make a hard copy of the thread .

 

 

I wrote "pure amplitude training" to delineate what I was describing from ratio, reversal (symmetry/asymmetry), phase coherence, and bipolar training. I was describing up/down training of frequency amplitude at a single location using a single channel monopolar montage.

 

Your dilemma regarding information sorting is what I was referring to, and it illustrates the problem with the general pollution in single subject threads with off-topic discussions; making our dilemma more difficult. I scanned this thread for valuable information and put it into a word doc. It took a few days to do, as there is way more information in this thread than you might expect. Mixing conversation into a single thread, which I am well guilty of, is not ideal. NFB warrants separate threads for each subject discussion in my opinion. It's just too relatively complex and, besides, the web in general lacks a good active nfb forum.

 

I think that nfb fits very well into this forum's avowed goals, and it is also complex enough to warrant its own section that will allow for a natural but organized collation of topics. This is just one man's opinion. 

Edited by golgi1, 10 August 2015 - 07:05 PM.

[hza]

@Golgi I get what you're saying, but at the same time nfb and its effects don't occur in a vacuum either.  Imo it's also important to know how TAG is being combined with other protocols and procedures, what other nfb and bfb approaches are being used along with it, how, and what the results are.  If someone is using TAG with great results, I"d like to know as much about their overall approach in enough detail to try it for myself. 

 

The main thing to me is it would be easier if the forum software allowed an option to view the entire thread as a single page, and then you could just use keyword searches to find what you're looking for in the record. Since we can't do that, thanks for taking the time to put together the highlights into a single document--i know exactly what a great deal of information is in this thread, the problem is figuring out which page what item is to be found on. In any event, this thread has gotten big enough to present some problems, I'll agree with that.

[Ames]

Well, okay, but extrapolate that logic to supplements. Would it be more instructive and overall better to have all supplement threads combined or how it currently is, with a single-ish concept per thread? Why is it different for nfb?

 

But to each their own.

[hza]

But that's just it, I think it's pretty clear that the central-ish topic on this thread clearly IS TAG Sync; users who discuss other nfb protocols are still doing so in the context of how it works in concert with TAG training (the discipline isn't 100% but nothing you'll see on an open forum ever is), and yes, that even includes supplements:  early on I noted that Douglas has made a point of emphasizing the use of NAC to reduce neural inflammation as a result of TAG and nfb training generally.  That's important info that has a direct bearing on the use of TAG, and it has the added importance of being recommended by the creator of this protocol as a powerful if not crucial complement to the training itself--along with HRV and SMR training. 

 

That said, there have been digressions into other areas like HEG and Brain-Trainer designs, and a good deal of that discussion has been from people asking for non-TAG related advice, although a good deal of it though has been about how these approaches work together with TAG to create desirable outcomes.  Again, I'm with you on the importance of keeping TAG central to the discussion here.  I'd prefer to err on the side of keeping the discipline too loose as opposed to too tight, but otoh if we all decided to open a TAG-only thread with a stricter posting policy and an elected moderator to light-saber out non-relevant posts, I'd support that too.  It'd be interesting to see what others have to say on the subject.

 

Well, okay, but extrapolate that logic to supplements. Would it be more instructive and overall better to have all supplement threads combined or how it currently is, with a single-ish concept per thread? Why is it different for nfb?

 

But to each their own.

 

 

[Ames]

 

But that's just it, I think it's pretty clear that the central-ish topic on this thread clearly IS TAG Sync; users who discuss other nfb protocols are still doing so in the context of how it works in concert with TAG training (the discipline isn't 100% but nothing you'll see on an open forum ever is), and yes, that even includes supplements:  early on I noted that Douglas has made a point of emphasizing the use of NAC to reduce neural inflammation as a result of TAG and nfb training generally.  That's important info that has a direct bearing on the use of TAG, and it has the added importance of being recommended by the creator of this protocol as a powerful if not crucial complement to the training itself--along with HRV and SMR training. 

 

That said, there have been digressions into other areas like HEG and Brain-Trainer designs, and a good deal of that discussion has been from people asking for non-TAG related advice, although a good deal of it though has been about how these approaches work together with TAG to create desirable outcomes.  Again, I'm with you on the importance of keeping TAG central to the discussion here.  I'd prefer to err on the side of keeping the discipline too loose as opposed to too tight, but otoh if we all decided to open a TAG-only thread with a stricter posting policy and an elected moderator to light-saber out non-relevant posts, I'd support that too.  It'd be interesting to see what others have to say on the subject.

 

Well, okay, but extrapolate that logic to supplements. Would it be more instructive and overall better to have all supplement threads combined or how it currently is, with a single-ish concept per thread? Why is it different for nfb?

 

But to each their own.

 

 

I'm not sure where the argument lies, other than I don't quite think that you get what I'm saying. Neurofeedback goes well beyond TAGsync. I was only saying that the forum could use a dedicated nfb section. I agree that TAGsync related discussion is appropriate under a TAGsync thread. But that isn't all nfb discussion, and a lot of the non-TAGsync protocol discussion in this thread doesn't really relate. Not all, but a lot. Also, I'm not making an impassioned argument. I was only expressing an opinion. Hence, I don't know why this is a debate. It essentially comes down to this: would a dedicated nfb section be appreciated or not? I'm not sure what the point is of arguing that most nfb discussion should be in the TAGsync operation thread. That's all I really have to say on the matter. It's not a big deal.

 

Last, as a point of argument, you didn't quite get my supplement thread analogy. I was referring to the forum in general, not supplements as they relate to TAGsync or nfb.

Edited by golgi1, 13 August 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[hza]

I'd be in favor of a dedicated nfb section at Longecity.  I never intended to argue that all or most nfb discussion should take place in this thread, and I hope I haven't done so.  However I may have misread your remark above, "I think that nfb fits very well into this forum's avowed goals," and mentally substituted "this forum" with "this thread," because to be honest this is the only thread here that I pay regular attention to. 

 

I assume there's some sort of procedure for petitioning Longecity to open a new section dedicated to nfb.  Maybe we could try that?  I'd vote for it.

[Earplug]

If you want to search this thread, it's all indexed in Google. Just paste this in your google search bar:

 

site:longecity.org/forum/topic/72710-tagsync-operation-and-discussion/  brainbay

 

(you can substitute "brainbay" with any other keyword(s) you want) 

 

The above technique will work for any website that is indexed by google. 

 

Also, has anyone ported tag sync over to brainbay yet? I read here that it is doable, but have not seen any confirmation that is has been done. What kind of development time would it take to handle it?  I would be willing to hire a developer to get it done, but need some parameters for the project. If anyone can get a little closer to the specific project requirements, I'll do my best to find a qualified developer to do the work. 

 

Edit: Also open to BioEra solutions

Edited by Earplug, 13 August 2015 - 07:29 PM.

[Ames]

You'd definitely be violating some type of copyright if you decided to explicitly port "TAGsync" to another platform. In fact, I wouldn't even mention such a thing if that is what your plans were, under the TAGsync name or not. However, as others here on this thread have mentioned, you can do alpha-theta and theta-gamma synchrony or some other such variation on other platforms or with other designs. Unless the design or port is exactly the same, you likely won't have an issue. If it is, you might.

 

I do wish everything that has been done in the 'community' to develop designs for Bioexplorer was instead done for BioEra, if for nothing but the ability to take advantage of its infra-low frequency ability. Conversely, get on that Bioexplorer (cyberevolution)!

Edited by golgi1, 14 August 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[Earplug]

Good point. I'm not at all interested in infringing on copyrights, but I do want to try out TAGsync, while at the same time avoiding investment in a framework that will be quickly outdated and lacks development support. 

 

As far as open source options / new options that I have not seen on this forum so far:  

 

1. MNE-Python - Development on github is moving at lightning pace: http://martinos.org/...mne-python.html

 

Compared to Brainbay (for example) which is written in C++, Python is an easier language to learn and for that reason is the default programming language in the scientific community. 

 

2. Neuromore is also interesting. It works on Mac OSX with Open BCI. http://www.neuromore.com/technology/

 

As far as alpha-theta or theta-gamma synchrony, does anyone have experience experimenting with specific protocols they'd mind sharing, and how effective have your results been compared to the official TAGSync protocol from Dailey? 

[hza]

So far Dailey's designs are the only ones I've heard of that target synchrony in more than one band simultaneously.  There are any number of protocols and designs out there for Alpha or Theta or Gamma, but nothing that does them all together--in fact even TAG Sync doesn't do all 3 as designed, but only 2 bands per session. 

 

As far as porting the design to other software, as long as you have a basic understanding of how EEG designs work, it should be easy enough to make your own design for your preferred platform just by looking at the Signal Diagram in Bioexplorer if you own the TAG designs, or as someone else pointed out here, you can gather what needs to be done just by looking at the software screenshots at the TAG website and noting the bins and the various rewards and inhibits.  Does that violate a copyright?  As long as you're not turning around and selling it for a profit or distributing it on any significant scale, I don't see how it does.  I agree with what Crowstream said above though, I think it's ethically best to purchase the designs, as we have them and this approach to training through Dailey's efforts and insights.  Imo that deserves compensation.  But anyway.

 

As you've seen, Crowstream and VastEmptiness have been able to take the basic 2Ch design and modify it for all kinds of added functions.  From what I've learned about creating objects in Bioexplorer, I'll bet most of the time needed to make those changes was spent in thinking up new things to try.

 

Good point. I'm not at all interested in infringing on copyrights, but I do want to try out TAGsync, while at the same time avoiding investment in a framework that will be quickly outdated and lacks development support. 

 

As far as open source options / new options that I have not seen on this forum so far:  

 

1. MNE-Python - Development on github is moving at lightning pace: http://martinos.org/...mne-python.html

 

Compared to Brainbay (for example) which is written in C++, Python is an easier language to learn and for that reason is the default programming language in the scientific community. 

 

2. Neuromore is also interesting. It works on Mac OSX with Open BCI. http://www.neuromore.com/technology/

 

As far as alpha-theta or theta-gamma synchrony, does anyone have experience experimenting with specific protocols they'd mind sharing, and how effective have your results been compared to the official TAGSync protocol from Dailey? 

 

[Meggo]

Braintrainer has a design which was constructed to be similar to TagSync. It syncs alpha and theta or alpha and gamma at the same time across two channels, without phase reset rewards though. It is called CON2C Sync Two-Band. 

[hza]

That's absolutely right--I was thinking of the 4Ch designs which afaik still only deal with single bands.  The CON2C design is, from the few times I've tried it, presented like any other B-T design, which is to say that you're told only to be aware of the feedback but not to "try" to create any kind of particular state, but instead let the feedback work with the brain without you interfering.  Very different from what is typically discussed here, which is generally some permutation of awareness meditation when using TAG.  That said, I haven't used CON2C enough times to really get anywhere with it, so I don't know how well it produces results in terms of better connectivity over time.  The pdf design manual from B-T doesn't really get into a lot of detail about what benefits come from this design, or when it's indicated.  But it's there, and something else I've been meaning to dig deeper into.

 

Thanks for the catch Meggo, that was pretty dumb of me.

Braintrainer has a design which was constructed to be similar to TagSync. It syncs alpha and theta or alpha and gamma at the same time across two channels, without phase reset rewards though. It is called CON2C Sync Two-Band. 

 

[Ames]

I believe that TAGX2 shows some type of average or compounding of the amplitude across both electrode sites, of any one frequency (ie: theta). I would only add, therefore, to be sure that any design that you are attempting to get to mimic TAGsync isn't merely syncing theta at channel 1 (for instance) with gamma at channel 2 (for instance). I believe that both frequencies have to be measured for through both channels, and the appropriate compounded/average feedback given. In other words, the theta bin is giving feedback for 2 channels and so is the gamma bin. This is my impression. Someone may correct me. This may be how CON2C works, but I'm not sure. If it is, then mimicking TAGsync using it would be trivial. They only lacking feedback would be the high beta (and delta?) inhibits. Though, I don't tend to have much issue staying under those inhibits in TAGsync except when I move around. I'd personally be comfortable doing not overly long sessions without them. I'd also personally be more worried about uptraining delta with theta than I would beta with gamma.

Edited by golgi1, 20 August 2015 - 06:10 AM.