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TAGsync: Operation and Discussion

tagsync theta alpha gamma synchrony training neurofeedback operation discussion

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#511 umop 3pisdn

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 04:54 PM

Hey all,

 

I don't know if this thread is still active, but I was wondering if someone could help me please?

 

So I have tag sync, and am seemingly doing pretty okay with it, I'm able to induce frequent cross frequency coupling in all the combinations, A/T. T/G, and even A/G.

 

I followed the method in OP's post, however I don't notice ANY subjective changes in my state. I don't feel any more bliss, or awareness, or enlightenment, or enhancements in memory.

 

Was wondering if there was anything I was doing wrong?

 

Try viewing the feedback not as the objective, but a metric you apply towards your objective. I found it a bit hard to understand at first, but no neurofeedback modality is going to correlate perfectly to any mental state, they only have to correlate well enough that they don't confuse you about what you're doing or what is happening, to serve as an objective benchmark. That still ends up being a pretty high requirement for feedback, since even a little bit of ambiguity or unreliability can confuse the process a lot, but what that attitude does is it turns the feedback more into a reliable sounding-board that you're using.

 

The challenge is still developing an internal awareness of the process, but unlike before where you're trying to develop a dim perception into a fully established sense all on your own purely through introspection/self-awareness, here you're actually being consistently fed some unambiguous information on what is happening. That objective external information just isn't meant to be the process in its entirety, at least not ime.


Edited by umop 3pisdn, 10 December 2015 - 04:56 PM.

  • Agree x 1

#512 umop 3pisdn

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 08:07 PM

I think there's something to just training 10-14 Hz alpha at Pz. I find that I can get pretty distinct feelings of prana/qi/piti-sukha very quickly using this method, and it seems to clarify some of the mechanics of attention for me. For example, a very consistent and relaxed attention seems to always increase the amplitude in this band the most, and 'mind wandering' causes the amplitude to fall into the low to medium range, and trying to establish my attention on the object will actually cause it to fall below that low to medium range. Initially that last point confused me, but the word I italicized seems to be at the root of it. When I'm trying to establish attention, I'm really bumping my mind into the object and trying to find a foothold, I'm not really locked into a state of attentiveness yet, rather what I am doing is looking for it or trying to establish it. Therefore I think the frequency band taking a very sharp fall in these moments might be a kind of phase-reset phenomenon, or my brain trying to 'lock on' to a mode of attention, by briefly resetting oscillatory activity in this frequency band, and thus causing the reduction in amplitude. That is just a fairly unscientific theory I formed after exploring this kind of training over a few sessions, though.

 

But I think this modality might be a way of monitoring 'mindfulness' (or heedfulness, or recollection), which is basically just a balanced and relatively ubiquitous/fluid mode of attention that acts contrary inattention (or heedlessness). Mindfulness (or sati) is ostensibly a mode of attention, it isn't actually the 'noticing' faculty we commonly see it as (that's actually a separate mental factor, sampajanna). Mindfulness is crucial not just because we need to be 'not inattentive' in order to implement any changes in our life (that's why the Buddha talked about mindfulness so much), but in Buddhist phenomenology it is also the faculty that naturally shades over into samadhi and jhana. So taking the most essential or basic approach, you work on simply being 'not inattentive', and then that naturally flows into light jhana, and then you just work with light jhana as a stronger basis for training attention, developing progressively stronger jhana and attention, etc, etc. And all of this proceeds from a mode of attention that is relatively effortless (because it is so moderate), all you're doing is simply resolving to not fall into a state of heedlessness or inattention. A conservative and relatively attainable priority like that seems a lot more realistic to me, and consequently more useful. I think viewing it that way basically locates the crux of the problem, or the fundamental approach to mental training/discipline.

 

The FAQ on the brain-trainer website mentions training 10-14 Hz in parietal regions as kind of an alternative to training alpha peak frequency, with the rationale being that alpha peak frequency can exceed 12 Hz in parietal regions in healthy individuals. Both alpha and SMR training seem implicated in 'flow states', and 10-14 Hz at Pz serves as kind of a casual median between these two kinds of training. Alpha and SMR are also the easiest, safest, and simplest kinds of brainwave training we can do, and they're basically right in the dead centre of the trainable spectrum. I think this kind of reflects the point I just made about mindfulness being relatively effortless and accessible. It seems, at least intuitively, that we shouldn't have to resort to any extreme or esoteric modes of training to access it, because mindfulness is anything but extreme or esoteric.

 

About 10-14 Hz at Pz being 'inbetween' alpha and SMR training, Pete Van Deusen claims that SMR is basically just a different morphology of thalamic/high alpha that is endogenous to the sensorimotor strip. Pz is also positioned roughly over the thalamus, so training SMR at Cz and 'high alpha' at Pz should be roughly functionally equivalent. But there are reasons to think training over Pz might be preferable, one is that the posterior cingulate cortex seems to be implicated in 'effortless attention' in some studies, which from my premises is exactly the kind of attention that we're targeting. And more on the note of 'effortless' attention, other modes of attentional training like HEG or beta over the frontal lobes I find to be too effortful to be very useful. And this is somewhat contrary to the common knowledge that positions attention in the frontal lobes with the executive control functions. I know in some studies frontal midline theta is associated with attentional processing, and maybe that's more effortless (and located in frontal areas, which is where we're normally inclined to look for attention), but I find that trying to train that kind of activity can make me mentally dull. There are probably different causes and conditions behind a given EEG pattern (frontal midline theta, in this case), so frontal midline theta being found in meditation studies doesn't necessarily mean we should be training it specifically, because we might activate the 'wrong' kind by mistake.

 

TAGsync does typically involve frontal midline theta, since often the sites are Fz and Pz, but it's different because it's a measure of connectivity between two sites. Training TAGsync certainly doesn't cause mental dullness in my case (quite the opposite!), but it is also a fairly complex measure, and the feedback is more complex as a result. In terms of meditative states I think it's comparatively more advanced, which depending on one's priorities might make it less useful in some ways (because our skills are usually comparatively less advanced!) Like if we're just trying to simply train 'non-inattention' as our specified foundation of practice, it might be a little too complex. 10-14 Hz has some benefits due to being profoundly simple. It's just one active sensor, over one site, training one frequency band, and presented as continuous proportional feedback. No inhibits, no dichotomous rewards, just emphasize developing mindfulness (or 'non-inattention', as I keep calling it) while using the feedback as a window into that process. Some basic experience with meditation is probably a necessity for this, because that's the primary process we're approaching (and not a certain band of brain activity as such), but given that bit of experience, I think this modality can help to clarify that mental process for us... we just need a little bit of familiarity with it first, to have the first idea about what it is that we're doing.

 

So from a meditative perspective, right now I think TAGsync might be more useful when we can use the jhanas (even very light jhanas) to become more reflexively aware of our own awareness, but that seems like a more advanced and specific problem to tackle, if instead we define our priority as just approaching easeful attention and attentional fluidity. TAGsync still seems extremely useful for trying to train a kind of internalized/self-aware vigilance, for addressing maladaptive patterns in the personality, etc. I think in terms of pure awareness, it can often be seen as an equivalent of those other modes of training attention that I touched on (HEG, beta amplitude), that is to say that it's like strength training for your awareness or noticing capacity. Like HEG/beta training for ADHD, it is likely to be useful in a lot of conditions, TAGsync likely activates our self-awareness in a very strong way when we're lacking in it, etc. It is also extremely useful for familiarizing yourself with more specific or advanced meditative states. But as every day training, I think the better priority overall is emphasizing a more simple/basic, essential, and effortless process, until we have that fully under our control, then we can focus on turning our mind back on itself more fully.

 

The only thing that is confusing me right now is that peak alpha frequency is supposed to decrease in experienced meditators, which has already been mentioned in this thread. I read somewhere (I can't recall where) that this might be because lower alpha (say 8-10 Hz) is involved more in cortical interactions, so a reduction in thalamic alpha indicates that the cortex is less coupled to the thalamic drivers (and consequently communicating more amongst itself). This might indicate that more choice or volitional processing goes into cognition, and we're not simply stuck listening to our thalamus without our choice. But I don't really know what the cause of reduced alpha peak frequency in experienced meditators might be, there are probably many different causes for these sorts of patterns, and I'm not sure if we have any reason to believe that training higher frequency is in any way counterproductive to a meditative practice. To me it seems somewhat important that it is higher frequency alpha, because lower frequency alpha can suffer from the same problem as basic theta training (it can make me mentally dull).

 

This is all pretty provisional, though, and it is based entirely on the premise that we make training mindfulness (or 'non-inattention') our core priority. If anyone else is somewhat interested in this, they could maybe try it out too, so my sample size would be a little bigger than one :p


Edited by umop 3pisdn, 13 December 2015 - 08:20 PM.

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#513 VastEmptiness

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 11:28 AM

@umop: you seem to be training various modalities. how do you decide what to train and how much time are you spending training each modality? it's very interesting to me that you seem to categorize various "buddhist skills" and to cultivate them using the technology as an assistance. i'm heavily interested in the stuff you put out and i'm happy this thread has already become an encyclopaedia of practical knowledge in this niche area.


have a question for you guys: as for my own progress, the next most impressive application of NFB for me other than meditative experience and it's contributions has been cognitive enhancement. the brain-trainer system guiding as well as HEG training (alongside ketosis and supplements) has brought about a major change for cognitive issues and chronic fatigue which i both had. i'm very sharp now pretty much all day, don't suffer tiredness at all when i sleep sufficiently and have a lot of energy to focus on the things i want. the only remains other than feeling like a zombie on waking up is really that the short-term focus seems to be somewhat off. what i mean by that is while my mind isn't nearly as jumpy like it used to be, i still kind of wander around the place, forgetting what i wanted to do in that room, etc. - also i tend to jump between activities when something suddenly jumps up in my mind and i'm surely losing productivity this way. reading/listening and all is working really well now, but for everyday tasks it's kind of annoying. can you guys pinpoint me to a certain training or sites that might enhance my ability here? i guess it has to do with short term memory and focus in a way. mindfulness of course should help at some point too. it feels like my mind gets easily excited about all kinds of stimuli and then just bounces around instead of ending the tasks.



#514 Crowstream

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 01:14 PM

@Speculosity

Which version of the protocol are you using? I think most long-time users in this thread use a modified version of the protocol which at least introduces continuous feedback (like a sound getting louder or more quiet as the amplitudes change).

I found myself at least that it was pretty difficult to train without this, the quiet reward protocol does not make much sense to me since if it is quiet then we are not getting feedback (although I suppose you can interpret the lack of feedback as a kind of feedback),

but for me having a continuous signal that I can attune to makes training a lot simpler. I feel like I progressed much faster when using this so this is what I will recommend other people use too.

 

Having trained other people as well, I have found that accessing these kinds of states is more difficult for some people than others. I don't know how it is for you, but for various reasons, some people might resist being in calm states, their nervous system will activate them as soon as they start relaxing. I think this is an activation of the fight or flight response, to learn more about this I can recommend this podcast: https://www.bulletpr...agal-nerve-264/

If this is the case then it is important to identify this pattern in yourself as it needs to be trained. One effective way could be to start with HRV training until you can consistently activate high HRV states for prolonged periods as this will teach you to inhibit the fight or flight response.

 

I think it is also highly useful to learn to identify the alpha brainwaves in the raw EEG: http://stonemountain.../eeg_var_bw.jpg

Can you consistently stay in a relaxed state with high alpha brainwave production? If yes then just rest in these states, be aware but don't have too many expectations. If you are worrying about if you are doing it right or wondering if you are getting the results you think you are supposed to be getting then you are probably still in a thinking state of mind which is probably not what you want to train for. To me it seems to work best if I am in a non-doing state, which is very hard if you are like most modern people I think, we are always doing something  :).

 

I can also recommend checking out the work of Les Fehmi to learn more about attention and the alpha brainwaves: 

https://www.youtube....h?v=rp7Ip18hsv8

Podcast: http://www.futurehea...100219-817.html

Read more here: http://princetonbiofeedback.com/

Many of his publications for free: http://openfocus.com...s-for-download/ (I can recommend attention to attention and mastering our brain's electrical rhythms)

 

@umop

I agree that having a basic and simple approach to everyday training can be very powerful. I think in meditation training in general you usually start with simple things and try to master those, to build a strong foundation. Alpha training alone can be very powerful, I too have found that it seems to correlate well with modes of attention.

 

I do think it is probably a good idea to also have a firm daily meditation practice as well as TAG Sync training and it can be a good idea to simplify things. You can spend many years training shamatha (a kind of attention practice) alone and get great benefits.



#515 Speculosity

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 12:23 AM

Sorry for responding late, but thank you both for the answers.

 

I got Vastemptiness' revamped design for tagsync. It also didn't seem to do anything for me.

 

Yet for some reason, I tried an alpha sync design from brain-trainer, and I noticed gains in my memory and processing ability. I think it's because I knew what each sound meant.



#516 Crowstream

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 12:24 PM

@Speculosity

 

That is great, I think neurofeedback is a great self-exploratory process. What works for you might not be what works for other people, I guess it depends on how our brains are working. It is probably best to try to explore what works best for you and to do that kind of training. At the end of the day we are looking for tangible results, like improvements in our life. This can also be difficult because it can take a long time for neurofeedback to really work well, some say at least 10 sessions but maybe 30-40+. I do think it is a worthwhile pursuit though and totally worth the time investment. As with anything in life you will get what you put in to it so it is not a miracle, takes some work and consistent effort to hone in on what works best for you and to reap the benefits.


  • Good Point x 1

#517 VastEmptiness

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 11:54 AM

I've read about alot of people who respond to Neurofeedback after an insane amount of sessions like 30 or 60. Have so far not heard of non-responders though. I guess we are all different; i mean some people don't notice an effect after drinking Ayahuasca so who knows whats possible. Either way I'd try out different forms of feedback (active/passive. constant(melody)/point reward/etc.) and see what makes you feel how and also keep at it. The worst case scenario is you're spending several hours in a somewhat mindful state which should be beneficial on it's own. As always I recommend working from the ground up: HRV training (no way youre not gonna respond), proper nutrition/lifestyle and then go from there with a whole brain plan.

 

Genetics will be playing a major part in determining such reactions; found this article on "The Self-Trancendent-Gene" and will be looking mine up. http://selfhacked.co...-ht1a-receptor/ - However since I'm pretty much hypersensitive to most substances and training modalities I can guess the result. Can really recommend getting your genome sequenced with www.23andme.com , everyone - fixing methylation is a major breakthrough for me as I was homozygous MTHFR A1298c for the whole journey and basically played Neurofeedback on 'extra hard' without the proper nutrient support my body would need.  The more stable  I'm getting the more I feel like returning to the TAGsync journey.  - http://mthfr.net/mthfr-a1298c-mutation-some-information-on-a1298c-mthfr-mutations/2011/11/30/ - It was actually Douglas who pointed out MTHFR to me after looking over my EEG recordings so I owe him deep gratitude.

By the way I don't recommend to anybody training with my older designs as they're not having beta-protection built in yet. While the chance of harm might be low; we shouldn't underestimate the impact NFB can have on a brain, both positively as negatively.


Edited by VastEmptiness, 29 December 2015 - 11:54 AM.


#518 Speculosity

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 05:12 AM

Hey I was wondering if anyone could please email me a Bioexplorer recording of them if they have one of T3-T4 please? My memory is bad, and I wanted to see where I stack up in coherence (so I could know what to change) with someone who's memory is fine.

I was going to examine it with Bioreview.


Edited by Speculosity, 07 January 2016 - 05:13 AM.


#519 VastEmptiness

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 09:57 AM

Hey I was wondering if anyone could please email me a Bioexplorer recording of them if they have one of T3-T4 please? My memory is bad, and I wanted to see where I stack up in coherence (so I could know what to change) with someone who's memory is fine.

I was going to examine it with Bioreview.

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2016-01-07 at 10.55.26.png   252.15KB   4 downloads

Long term memory is amazing and was at time of recording. I think short term is working quite well when i'm focused (tend to do 10 things at once, which isn't helpful in that regard).
If you want an actual recording of T3-T4, send me a Dropbox or somewhere to put it in PM.



#520 Speculosity

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 10:03 AM

Thank you so much VE, and I just messaged you my email for the recording :)

#521 Speculosity

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 10:08 AM

Currently all my slow waves in the main connected areas are high as fuck. Between 70-95 Depending on the location. All of my slow waves are generally highly in phase as well.

I suspect this is why the TAGsync and your designs VE don't work on me, as I already have high synchrony.

Unfortunately, they're too high, which I guess is the cause of my issues.

Edited by Speculosity, 07 January 2016 - 10:09 AM.


#522 thebrainstore

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 10:20 AM

Not sure if this is the same thing as you refer to, but large amplitude delta waves during the times when we should be awake can be a clear indicator of neurological developmental trauma. I was abused as a kid and when I started going for treatment my Delta peaks were "high as fuck" too. Also the synchrony of that over the head is not necessarily a good thing. 

 

Have a google for Sebern Fisher's FPO2 protocol., this really helped me with my developmental trauma after just a few sessions.



#523 VastEmptiness

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 10:23 AM

Currently all my slow waves in the main connected areas are high as fuck. Between 70-95 Depending on the location. All of my slow waves are generally highly in phase as well.

I suspect this is why the TAGsync and your designs VE don't work on me, as I already have high synchrony.

Unfortunately, they're too high, which I guess is the cause of my issues.

 

Talk to Douglas about it. I wouldn't draw conclusions like that on a topic so diverse.

 

My first idea would be recording error/muscle tension. It's very easy to get artifact on delta. According to PVD, synchrony in the lower frequencies is almost always good and he never trained them down as of now. However if you see crazy synchronies they're likely to be artifact anyway. I would rather worry about hypercoherence in the beta ranges but again there it is easy to get strong artifact due to muscle tension or movement. https://brain-traine...ence-synchrony/

 

Sent you an email.


Not sure if this is the same thing as you refer to, but large amplitude delta waves during the times when we should be awake can be a clear indicator of neurological developmental trauma. I was abused as a kid and when I started going for treatment my Delta peaks were "high as fuck" too. Also the synchrony of that over the head is not necessarily a good thing. 

 

Have a google for Sebern Fisher's FPO2 protocol., this really helped me with my developmental trauma after just a few sessions.

 

Which sites? Overall? Are you talking about coherence or amplitude?



#524 thebrainstore

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 10:26 AM

Amplitude >30uV, and it was appearing at most places on my scalp. Huge slow waves, like parts of me was asleep at all times. When the terrible memories started to come out this balance shifted quite quickly. I have also found the alpha synchrony and alpha/theta protocols very beneficial, FWIW.


Edited by spektrolyte, 07 January 2016 - 10:35 AM.


#525 VastEmptiness

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 10:58 AM

Amplitude >30uV, and it was appearing at most places on my scalp. Huge slow waves, like parts of me was asleep at all times. When the terrible memories started to come out this balance shifted quite quickly. I have also found the alpha synchrony and alpha/theta protocols very beneficial, FWIW.

 

In that case I agree. Was talking about coherence between two sites though. Large delta amplitudes are supposed to be around in deep sleep, deep meditation, etc. - not in a wakeful state, and certainly not in the left front. Training slow waves down there was one of the most helpful things in fixing my cognition and fatigue.

Any chance you could forward us your protocol? I really like the idea of targeting the amygdala (trying to do that with intranasal LLLT at the moment, which is probably more than optimistic, but then again it really clears my nose hehe) and I had good effects with umop's protocol.



#526 thebrainstore

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 11:29 AM

Well I made it in Brainbay but it's simple so will describe here.

 

Electrode at FPO2 in the inside corner of right eye socket. There is a small gap where nasal bone and ocular ridge meets, it is sensitive to touch. Put the electrode here. I made one using stiff silver plated wire bent into a coil the size of a penny, and bent the wire over the eye socket before securing with tape on the forehead. Reference would be left ear, and ground I placed at right ear.  Eyes closed, reclining, this one makes you get very comfortable if you hit the spot. 

 

Inhibit delta peaks (top 25%), and inhibit High Beta a little more. Reward from mid Theta right up to the SMR, or instead Beta 15-20 depending on how you respond. I have read at least 3 variations on this protocol, so the frequencies will depend on the individual and the condition. I tried Alpha range first, but Beta was more rewarding. It will not take long and will feel very relaxing if the frequency is right. 10 minutes should be more than enough to notice the effects.

 

My protocol summed either (or both) of the reward ranges described above, whilst subtracting the sum of delta and hi beta resulting in a single varying signal which I used to control the volume of an abstract evolving pad sound. The higher the score, the louder the sound, the lower delta/hibeta and higher the reward frequencies.

 

I did this protocol about 3 times for maybe 40 minutes each time. It moved things, and this seems to be a powerful spot for those who have really suffered bullying/neglect or worse in the past.


Edited by spektrolyte, 07 January 2016 - 11:48 AM.

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#527 thebrainstore

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 11:47 AM

Here's the file, you can load it on Brainbay and then rebuild in BioExplorer - it's not particularly complex.



#528 VastEmptiness

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 11:39 AM

Well I made it in Brainbay but it's simple so will describe here.

 

Electrode at FPO2 in the inside corner of right eye socket. There is a small gap where nasal bone and ocular ridge meets, it is sensitive to touch. Put the electrode here. I made one using stiff silver plated wire bent into a coil the size of a penny, and bent the wire over the eye socket before securing with tape on the forehead. Reference would be left ear, and ground I placed at right ear.  Eyes closed, reclining, this one makes you get very comfortable if you hit the spot. 

 

Inhibit delta peaks (top 25%), and inhibit High Beta a little more. Reward from mid Theta right up to the SMR, or instead Beta 15-20 depending on how you respond. I have read at least 3 variations on this protocol, so the frequencies will depend on the individual and the condition. I tried Alpha range first, but Beta was more rewarding. It will not take long and will feel very relaxing if the frequency is right. 10 minutes should be more than enough to notice the effects.

 

My protocol summed either (or both) of the reward ranges described above, whilst subtracting the sum of delta and hi beta resulting in a single varying signal which I used to control the volume of an abstract evolving pad sound. The higher the score, the louder the sound, the lower delta/hibeta and higher the reward frequencies.

 

I did this protocol about 3 times for maybe 40 minutes each time. It moved things, and this seems to be a powerful spot for those who have really suffered bullying/neglect or worse in the past.

 

Thanks alot for sharing. Very valuable.

it's just a detail, but SMR doesn't exist outside of the central strip (C3 to C4), so when youre train there youre training low beta. it's surprising to me that your amygdala likes beta to calm down but then again who really understands those dynamics. i so far use a very pragmatic approach to NFB and that works well, so i'm always happy to hear what people found useful. I have alot of experience with trauma-therapy both in and outside of neurofeedback, but this is quite a different approach. My first idea would be that you downtrain deltaish early memory reactivation and high beta anxiousness whilst reinforcing outward/positive outlook. However it's very new to me to do that in the right brain or even the amygdala. Very interesting.

 

Could you also formulate detail about frequencies used (delta range, hi beta range) and where you set automatic thressholds? (Cut of top 25% delta, cut of top 30% beta? How much for the reward?) and how much are you able to change those amplitudes in one session/is there an amount of change which you correlate to your subjective improvement?

Can you go more into detail what it means when you say it moved things? How is the subjective experience and what does it do for you in  day-to-day?

 

 

FAQ: Which setup to buy?

Btw: I keep getting asked about which setup to buy, so I put mine up in the other thread:
http://www.longecity...e-5#entry757285
 


Edited by VastEmptiness, 08 January 2016 - 11:47 AM.


#529 thebrainstore

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 01:19 PM

Sorry, my communication is often a little unclear. By "right up to the SMR" I meant 12Hz i.e. to the lower edge of SMR frequencies. You're right, this rhythm bears no relation to the frontal ocular area.

 

By "it moved things", I mean that the next day I confronted my parents about what happened to me during my childhood, after over 30 years of not talking about it. I did this protocol 3 days running and had to stop as it was really bringing up buried emotions. It's been almost a week now and no neurofeedback, kind of shocked me a little and my direction has changed somehow. I need to learn more about this subject before doing more feedback.

 

Inhibits:

 

Delta 0.5 - 7 Hz, top 25% of activity triggers the inhibit and due to the magnitude of the signal at that point it cuts the audio completely.

 

HiBeta 20 - 30 Hz. I set the threshold somewhere between 30-40%, so that I can hear it affect the audio when it spikes.

 

Rewards:

 

Theta/Alpha 5 - 12 Hz. Threshold set at zero, so any activity drives the audio volume upwards.

 

Beta 15 - 18 Hz. Again threshold at zero

 

 

I manually tweaked the input gains of the reward meters so that there was only a little audio activity when I wasn't concentrating, and the audio was clearly inhibited by spikes in delta and hi beta. With concentration on the feedback it quickly developed and became quite engaging. I could feel movement in the energy in my head which matched very closely the sounds I was hearing, like the sound brought my attention into my head. By tweaking these gains I was also able to choose to reward alpha/theta, beta or both. I moved toward rewarding beta. Inhibiting alpha on the right side might also be a good idea.

 

The sound I chose was a synth pad with a distortion and delay effect also controlled by the signal. As the reward went up the volume grew, sound become more grainy and started to echo around the speakers. A really good reward which I found calming to listen to, not unlike a far away thunderstorm.

 

I am concerned about going off topic, and would like to speak with you privately if thats ok.

 

 

 


Edited by spektrolyte, 08 January 2016 - 01:22 PM.

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#530 Meggo

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 06:53 PM

Your reward frequencies seem a bit on the high side. The right amygdala is also responsible for anger. Could it be that you got angry because of the beta reward, which led to a confrontation with your parents? If yes, maybe you should try a lower frequency like 5-9 for reward (Fisher said that most people need very low reward on FPO2) or try bipolar T4-Fp2 with low reward / inhibit (which was recommended over the FPO2 by a NF practitioner who worked together with fisher - he said it worked better). The state you should be in is certainly an awake, concentrated and very peaceful state.
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#531 Speculosity

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 01:34 AM

So according to VE's photo of his TLC stats, If I were to compare mine to his, I seem to be deficient in gamma coherence in T3-T4 and T5-T6. My coherence is half of his.

I also seem to have less synchrony in slow and fast waves in Cz-Oz, but seeing as it's defient in both types of waves, it leads me to think that maybe my position of Oz different from his.

VE, may I ask how you personally position OZ for yourself when applying electrodes?



#532 VastEmptiness

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 09:27 AM

So according to VE's photo of his TLC stats, If I were to compare mine to his, I seem to be deficient in gamma coherence in T3-T4 and T5-T6. My coherence is half of his.

I also seem to have less synchrony in slow and fast waves in Cz-Oz, but seeing as it's defient in both types of waves, it leads me to think that maybe my position of Oz different from his.

VE, may I ask how you personally position OZ for yourself when applying electrodes?

 

I wouldnt draw any of those conclusions from one brain and one recording. My brain is far from average due to various factors. One would be that i uptrained Gamma ALOT (still pretty much my favorite protocol). Also it's very hard to keep track of artifact on a sheet like that either. The recording before that showed insanely high Gamma (which I even posted here, hyped up) and by now I'm pretty sure that I had muscle tension due to overtraining (If it's constant you can't really know if it artifact unless you're able to interpret raw waves, which I'm not). Coherence varies over time, if you take a screenshot of your brain, all you get is guidance and hints.  So in that case, go for Gamma and see if it is benificial for you. Just generally watch out for berta spindles at temporals. The brain-trainer TLC7 recommends Gamma coherence training and sometimes Gamma amplitude training to almost anyone. Unless you've been doing alot of compassion meditation your Gamma should be low.

 

If you want my latest protocol, let me know. The one by brain-trainer is very good too.

 

I learned the 10-20 with this graphic:

Attached File  1302a.gif   34.58KB   5 downloads

To find Oz is pretty easy due to the inion. Its just like 2-3 fingers on top of that. In my case there is another little bump in the skull (much less than the inion), I place it on top. Together with Fz-Cz-Pz it aligns perfectly, so I'm pretty sure it's the correct placement. The only things I struggle to place are T5/T6 and P3 P4.

Attached File  Gray_Surface-head.jpg   41.88KB   3 downloads



#533 Speculosity

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 05:18 PM

Ah okay, I also based it on that first picture, and the way I perceived it was that it ran parallel to the top part of the ear, along that dotted line.

Only thing is, on my head, that line takes me right to the left of the inion, whereas in the model of the picture, the inion is parallel to his earlobe.

I'll have to run a test with Oz 3 fingers up, and see if there's any difference.


And yea, I'm sure that comparing my stats to yours isn't fool-proof. However before the incident that caused my brain damage, I actually had above average memory. And seeing how every other stat is more or less the same as yours in the T's except gamma, it leads me to believe that that is the culprit. Especially considering the meaning of gamma waves in the brain.


Also I have a constant spindling problem in the temporals and O2. Where at random times while training, they just go wild and the eeg shows every band flaring up and down like crazy. At first I thought it was artifact, but after mentally testing my body position plus making sure I applied electrodes correctly, I can confirm it's something going on with my brain itself.



#534 MrBaxter12

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 07:39 PM

Hi All,

 

I've been reading this thread for months and in early December took the plunge and bought a Q Wiz with bioexplorer and the Tag Sync Designs. First off, many thanks to all of the contributors on this thread. No doubt, I would not have any idea about this technology without it. My primary reason for posting is to ask questions to other users and to share my experience as a newb, which can hopefully help those who are just starting with Tag Sync or NFB or are thinking about making the investment.

 

My background: Male, 26, usually have been considered fairly intelligent throughout school, I got into a Top 15 University (USA) and graduated with a bachelor's degree in 4 year, and got a job which has turned into a fairly successful/promising career. In college, I got caught up in the drinking culture (binge drinking 3+ nights per week + eventually into the cannabis smoking as well).  With 4 years of that + some after graduation (not as intense) - I believed I had impaired my cognition and social functioning. What I mean - is that I had a much harder time concentrating, memorizing items, writing fluidly (when I take my time...I have always been a good writer - not vouching for this post haha), etc. And, I also had a much greater degree of social anxiety, general anxiety, slight depression, and generally suffered from being in my head way too much (over analyzing things, too concerned what other think, not great at sustaining conversations with people I wasn't comfortable with...etc.) All this being said, I have good friends, a loving family, and good job which I appear to be good at. At a glance, my problems may seem minor, but I know that I can improve myself significantly. This is the reason for my interest in TAG sync.

 

That is my general background, but I have cooled off on the alcohol and substances over the past few years and have noticed a definite improvement in all of the above. However, I still think cognitively & socially I am deficient compared to if I had been more responsible in college.

 

I started TAG Sync about a month ago (with the tremendous resources of this thread) and have also stopped drinking completely. I have done about 30 sessions for a total of around 10 hours. I already notice a definite improvement in general mood, cognition, decrease in anxiety, and immensely improved sleep. The investment for me has already been worth it and for that I am very grateful to everyone here.

 

I want to describe how my sessions go so as to compare with current users and to possibly help new users as well.  I usually get all hooked up and set up the design similar to the description in the first post of the thread.  I sit comfortably upright and keep my eyes slightly open with a soft, unfocused gaze. Then, I begin with a pattern of deep and slow inhalation and exhalation and make sure to pause for at least a few seconds when I have completely full lungs and completely empty lungs (kind of circular breathing. I then begin to notice the audio feedback (i use the quiet reward design). There will usually be a few signals that indicate I am below the first threshold, which come intermittently in the beginning if I have set the thresholds correctly. After becoming more experienced with TAG, I have noticed that there are particular locations in my brain where I can "focus" my awareness. Consistently focusing in these spots or ranges will eventually begin to yield the chime of the Phase Reset sound, which is the goal of TAG.  I have found that I change the spot/area of focus slightly depending on when I inhale vs exhale in order to achieve the Phase Resets.  Sometimes, this act of "focusing" on an area to achieve PRs is very difficult depending on how I'm feeling, the particular site I am training etc. However, sometimes I can be very focused for a few minutes at a time and have multiple PR's per each inhale and exhale. For those moments, it is almost like being in a trance or medititative state where I am able to almost create the PRs at will via focusing on certain areas in my brain.  After typing this, I fear that "focus" that I have been using is not the correct term. It is almost like a dual focus yet relaxed state of not focus. Sorry for the contradiction, but the state is hard to explain. Can anyone else relate? What is interesting is that the locus of this focus/non-focus state changes depending on what bands I am training. If I am training Theta/Alpha, it is usually in the front center of the brain, if I am training Theta/gamma it is normally at the top of the brain...it may move a little from time to time, but these general locations have stayed consistent I have noticed.  Any way, I would love to know if any current user can relate to my experience or if there experience is different.

 

One question: My reward thresholds tend to be quite low  - 5u - 15u for most sites and times. Is this normal? I was looking at the spectrograph in Doug's designs and his spectrograph is lit up with red/yellow/and white (indicating voltages above 25u). My spectrograph is usually mostly blue with some red blips. Most of the times I get white/yellow are due to muscular artifact. Does this mean my average brain voltage is lower than normal?

 

Thanks for reading and I hope to contribute through my experiences or by asking questions that will help other beginners

 

 



#535 Speculosity

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 07:52 PM

Hi All,

 

I've been reading this thread for months and in early December took the plunge and bought a Q Wiz with bioexplorer and the Tag Sync Designs. First off, many thanks to all of the contributors on this thread. No doubt, I would not have any idea about this technology without it. My primary reason for posting is to ask questions to other users and to share my experience as a newb, which can hopefully help those who are just starting with Tag Sync or NFB or are thinking about making the investment.

 

My background: Male, 26, usually have been considered fairly intelligent throughout school, I got into a Top 15 University (USA) and graduated with a bachelor's degree in 4 year, and got a job which has turned into a fairly successful/promising career. In college, I got caught up in the drinking culture (binge drinking 3+ nights per week + eventually into the cannabis smoking as well).  With 4 years of that + some after graduation (not as intense) - I believed I had impaired my cognition and social functioning. What I mean - is that I had a much harder time concentrating, memorizing items, writing fluidly (when I take my time...I have always been a good writer - not vouching for this post haha), etc. And, I also had a much greater degree of social anxiety, general anxiety, slight depression, and generally suffered from being in my head way too much (over analyzing things, too concerned what other think, not great at sustaining conversations with people I wasn't comfortable with...etc.) All this being said, I have good friends, a loving family, and good job which I appear to be good at. At a glance, my problems may seem minor, but I know that I can improve myself significantly. This is the reason for my interest in TAG sync.

 

That is my general background, but I have cooled off on the alcohol and substances over the past few years and have noticed a definite improvement in all of the above. However, I still think cognitively & socially I am deficient compared to if I had been more responsible in college.

 

I started TAG Sync about a month ago (with the tremendous resources of this thread) and have also stopped drinking completely. I have done about 30 sessions for a total of around 10 hours. I already notice a definite improvement in general mood, cognition, decrease in anxiety, and immensely improved sleep. The investment for me has already been worth it and for that I am very grateful to everyone here.

 

I want to describe how my sessions go so as to compare with current users and to possibly help new users as well.  I usually get all hooked up and set up the design similar to the description in the first post of the thread.  I sit comfortably upright and keep my eyes slightly open with a soft, unfocused gaze. Then, I begin with a pattern of deep and slow inhalation and exhalation and make sure to pause for at least a few seconds when I have completely full lungs and completely empty lungs (kind of circular breathing. I then begin to notice the audio feedback (i use the quiet reward design). There will usually be a few signals that indicate I am below the first threshold, which come intermittently in the beginning if I have set the thresholds correctly. After becoming more experienced with TAG, I have noticed that there are particular locations in my brain where I can "focus" my awareness. Consistently focusing in these spots or ranges will eventually begin to yield the chime of the Phase Reset sound, which is the goal of TAG.  I have found that I change the spot/area of focus slightly depending on when I inhale vs exhale in order to achieve the Phase Resets.  Sometimes, this act of "focusing" on an area to achieve PRs is very difficult depending on how I'm feeling, the particular site I am training etc. However, sometimes I can be very focused for a few minutes at a time and have multiple PR's per each inhale and exhale. For those moments, it is almost like being in a trance or medititative state where I am able to almost create the PRs at will via focusing on certain areas in my brain.  After typing this, I fear that "focus" that I have been using is not the correct term. It is almost like a dual focus yet relaxed state of not focus. Sorry for the contradiction, but the state is hard to explain. Can anyone else relate? What is interesting is that the locus of this focus/non-focus state changes depending on what bands I am training. If I am training Theta/Alpha, it is usually in the front center of the brain, if I am training Theta/gamma it is normally at the top of the brain...it may move a little from time to time, but these general locations have stayed consistent I have noticed.  Any way, I would love to know if any current user can relate to my experience or if there experience is different.

 

One question: My reward thresholds tend to be quite low  - 5u - 15u for most sites and times. Is this normal? I was looking at the spectrograph in Doug's designs and his spectrograph is lit up with red/yellow/and white (indicating voltages above 25u). My spectrograph is usually mostly blue with some red blips. Most of the times I get white/yellow are due to muscular artifact. Does this mean my average brain voltage is lower than normal?

 

Thanks for reading and I hope to contribute through my experiences or by asking questions that will help other beginners

 

 

While I haven't noticed any effects from TAGsync, since I guess my slow waves are over-synchronized, I will say that I had the same question you did.

 

I learned from Douglas that there are some people, around 10% of the population that genetically have a lower EEG voltage than the rest of the world, but it has no effect on brain functionality.

Globally none of my brain waves exceeds 10u, and while I have memory problems now, everything else is still functional. I suspect I was like this before the incident which caused my memory issues.

The actual voltage means little in itself. It's what it means relative to other voltages of different frequency bands, or in different places in the brain that matters.

 

So for you, just adjust the spectrogram's sensitivity to match your EEG range. 



#536 MrBaxter12

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 10:19 PM

 

Hi All,

 

I've been reading this thread for months and in early December took the plunge and bought a Q Wiz with bioexplorer and the Tag Sync Designs. First off, many thanks to all of the contributors on this thread. No doubt, I would not have any idea about this technology without it. My primary reason for posting is to ask questions to other users and to share my experience as a newb, which can hopefully help those who are just starting with Tag Sync or NFB or are thinking about making the investment.

 

My background: Male, 26, usually have been considered fairly intelligent throughout school, I got into a Top 15 University (USA) and graduated with a bachelor's degree in 4 year, and got a job which has turned into a fairly successful/promising career. In college, I got caught up in the drinking culture (binge drinking 3+ nights per week + eventually into the cannabis smoking as well).  With 4 years of that + some after graduation (not as intense) - I believed I had impaired my cognition and social functioning. What I mean - is that I had a much harder time concentrating, memorizing items, writing fluidly (when I take my time...I have always been a good writer - not vouching for this post haha), etc. And, I also had a much greater degree of social anxiety, general anxiety, slight depression, and generally suffered from being in my head way too much (over analyzing things, too concerned what other think, not great at sustaining conversations with people I wasn't comfortable with...etc.) All this being said, I have good friends, a loving family, and good job which I appear to be good at. At a glance, my problems may seem minor, but I know that I can improve myself significantly. This is the reason for my interest in TAG sync.

 

That is my general background, but I have cooled off on the alcohol and substances over the past few years and have noticed a definite improvement in all of the above. However, I still think cognitively & socially I am deficient compared to if I had been more responsible in college.

 

I started TAG Sync about a month ago (with the tremendous resources of this thread) and have also stopped drinking completely. I have done about 30 sessions for a total of around 10 hours. I already notice a definite improvement in general mood, cognition, decrease in anxiety, and immensely improved sleep. The investment for me has already been worth it and for that I am very grateful to everyone here.

 

I want to describe how my sessions go so as to compare with current users and to possibly help new users as well.  I usually get all hooked up and set up the design similar to the description in the first post of the thread.  I sit comfortably upright and keep my eyes slightly open with a soft, unfocused gaze. Then, I begin with a pattern of deep and slow inhalation and exhalation and make sure to pause for at least a few seconds when I have completely full lungs and completely empty lungs (kind of circular breathing. I then begin to notice the audio feedback (i use the quiet reward design). There will usually be a few signals that indicate I am below the first threshold, which come intermittently in the beginning if I have set the thresholds correctly. After becoming more experienced with TAG, I have noticed that there are particular locations in my brain where I can "focus" my awareness. Consistently focusing in these spots or ranges will eventually begin to yield the chime of the Phase Reset sound, which is the goal of TAG.  I have found that I change the spot/area of focus slightly depending on when I inhale vs exhale in order to achieve the Phase Resets.  Sometimes, this act of "focusing" on an area to achieve PRs is very difficult depending on how I'm feeling, the particular site I am training etc. However, sometimes I can be very focused for a few minutes at a time and have multiple PR's per each inhale and exhale. For those moments, it is almost like being in a trance or medititative state where I am able to almost create the PRs at will via focusing on certain areas in my brain.  After typing this, I fear that "focus" that I have been using is not the correct term. It is almost like a dual focus yet relaxed state of not focus. Sorry for the contradiction, but the state is hard to explain. Can anyone else relate? What is interesting is that the locus of this focus/non-focus state changes depending on what bands I am training. If I am training Theta/Alpha, it is usually in the front center of the brain, if I am training Theta/gamma it is normally at the top of the brain...it may move a little from time to time, but these general locations have stayed consistent I have noticed.  Any way, I would love to know if any current user can relate to my experience or if there experience is different.

 

One question: My reward thresholds tend to be quite low  - 5u - 15u for most sites and times. Is this normal? I was looking at the spectrograph in Doug's designs and his spectrograph is lit up with red/yellow/and white (indicating voltages above 25u). My spectrograph is usually mostly blue with some red blips. Most of the times I get white/yellow are due to muscular artifact. Does this mean my average brain voltage is lower than normal?

 

Thanks for reading and I hope to contribute through my experiences or by asking questions that will help other beginners

 

 

While I haven't noticed any effects from TAGsync, since I guess my slow waves are over-synchronized, I will say that I had the same question you did.

 

I learned from Douglas that there are some people, around 10% of the population that genetically have a lower EEG voltage than the rest of the world, but it has no effect on brain functionality.

Globally none of my brain waves exceeds 10u, and while I have memory problems now, everything else is still functional. I suspect I was like this before the incident which caused my memory issues.

The actual voltage means little in itself. It's what it means relative to other voltages of different frequency bands, or in different places in the brain that matters.

 

So for you, just adjust the spectrogram's sensitivity to match your EEG range. 

 

Thanks for the reply regarding the low voltage. That makes sense and I will adjust the spectrogram to match my baseline.



#537 Gengar

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 03:18 PM

Howdy!

 

Thanks to OpaqueMind for starting this thread and the Reddit thread which brought me here, and to all those who have contributed many a thoughtful post. This thread gave me confidence that I could have some success or progress with TAGSync and other NFB protocols. And, 7 months after getting my gear, I am certainly seeing some benefits. 

 

Experiences so far:

 

Getting started: lots of frustration with the gear. Like someone said, pretty much all of the aspects of the setup are unintuitive. I've gotten the hang for using BioExplorer and the TAGsync designs , but I still get grossed out by having goo in my long hair. 

 

SMR amplitude training at Cz: I've done about 25, 30-minute sessions. This is a pretty straightforward protocol, and it seems to improve my ability to pay attention and focus on things. I feel physically relaxed after doing this protocol, and am better at falling asleep. I should also mention that I had little success with TAGsync before I conducted at least a handful of SMR sessions. 

TAGsync: I've done around 30 sessions, anywhere from 30 to 70 minutes. All of my training has been midline work, and for the past 2 months I've been using the 4-channel design (thanks VE and Opaque!). For me, this type of training is intense mindfulness meditation. I tend to gain access to deeper states of consciousness with it than just in meditation alone (or other NFB protocols), and the consequences, both pleasant and unpleasant, tend to be greater. I can now understand why DD encourages HRV training alongside TAGsync as a way of calming down the mind and body-- I've experienced sad or painful emotional release after a number of TAGsync sessions. On the plus side, I do generally feel more at peace with present experience, and more capable of accessing deeper meditation states. And, there are many TAGSync sessions after which I feel energized, bright, and happy. It's sort of unpredictable in that way. 

 

ILF: I've done about 20 sessions, a few at C3-C4 and most at T3-T4. DD's guide, which is included in the TAGSync package, is indispensable. I'm still at the stage of figuring out my arousal level, which is determined by slowly and methodically adjusting the reward frequency. It's taken me all of these sessions just to be able to discern the subjective differences in the reward frequencies! DD says he can figure it out in just a couple sessions. Pshhh.  :cool: Right now I'm pretty sure that my optimal window is around 5-8hz, so once I'm sure of that, I plan on trying some other locations to address my localized dysfunctions and instabilities. 

 

A note on ILF--- I feel that we (and DD) should really be calling it single-channel bipolar training (SCB?). Because, although both he and the Othmers are increasingly using the <1hz range to conduct bipolar training, the optimal frequency is still dependent on the individual's arousal level. I get it that the <1hz range is cool because it's a relatively new development in NFB, but the essential aspect of this training modality is rewarding the anti-phase relationship (bipolar). Has anybody else been using this protocol recently?

 

10-14hz amplitude training at Pz: As per umop's suggestion, I've done this protocol 3 times. I dig it! I see it as a more barebones or straightforward way of using NFB to aid mindfulness. I probably would have benefited from doing this protocol before starting TAGsync. 

 

 

Next steps: I'm interested in doing HEG and HRV training. I'd also like to get an assessment done using the TLC7ap. Is anyone here looking to sell one of theirs? (A headband, the HeartMath kit or the TLC7ap kit?) I see the benefit of the protocols I've been using, but I suspect that an assessment-driven approach is necessary given my situation. I abused marijuana heavily in college (up to 3x a day for 2 years) and now have difficulty in carrying out complex tasks and getting motivated to do things. I'm also looking to address my issues with (social) anxiety, tinnitus, and headaches. 

 

Looking forward to participating in this wonderful conversation. Thanks for reading!

 


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#538 VastEmptiness

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:18 PM

@Gengar: Welcome onboard and thank you for the very comprehensive review. It's still fascinating for me how different people respond to Neurofeedback and how fast they advance with it. Can really really recommend HRV and also HEG. For HRV all you need is a breathing timer (5s/5s - no pause to the lower belly) and you can use this free design to check if youre getting the results: http://pocketneurobi..._video.bxd_.zip - investment: 0$.

 

 

i'm in the process of further refining my protocols. does anybody have access to those studies on peak performance? specifically highly interested in the first three.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24125857
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24239853
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24690579

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19082646
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23751914

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26707084
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20803947


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#539 VastEmptiness

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:26 PM

Thanks to BrainBright i got ahold of all those papers. Found this great one too. I was sure from the first training that Gamma increases intelligence but those findings are pretty sick:

 

Keizer, A.W., Verschoor, M., Verment, R.S., Hommel, B., 2010a. The effect of gamma 
enhancing neurofeedback on the control of feature bindings and intelligence 
measures. International Journal of Psychophysiology 75, 25–32.

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#540 MrBaxter12

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:44 PM

So I've been doing TAG Sync and other protocols for about 5 weeks now 30min to an hour daily. I'm having some success with the 4 Channel TAG Sync and occasionally do other protocols like SMR, alpha up, etc.

 

Anyway, I've been rereading this thread to absorb more information and decided to incorporate more SMR training due to reading how important it is and how it will help my TAG Sync. When training SMR %, my % is between 5-8%, which I gather is very low after reading about several others with percentages in the high teens and 20s. 

 

I believe I have some of the symptoms of low SMR too: insomnia, anxiety, muscle tension, etc. so maybe low SMR is one of my issues.

 

Is 5-8% relatively low? I've probably only trained SMR for a few hours total and have seen it edge up a little towards the higher end of that spectrum. Does anyone have any tips on training SMR or any notion of how long it will take to train up SMR? Eyes open/closed? Look at the instrument screen or not? Any particular focus? I've read that the SMR protocols are more passive where the neurofeedback is automatic so to speak - is this true and I just need to increase my training?

 

I'm going to try and do 30 minutes of SMR per day at minimum to get my % up. Any tips or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!







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