707 replies to this topic

[OpaqueMind]

So, if I understand umop and crow correctly, the implications of this are that by down-training amplitudes across a broad range of frequencies we will be promoting cortical desynchronisation aka increased entropy/uncertainty, a key aspect of optimal criticality. If that's right then it seems like using such a protocol would be a perfect complement to TAGsync.

 

According to the paper 'The Entropic Brain', this is also what happens during psychedelic states. There is an interesting video which relates somewhat to this that someone just posted in another thread, so I'll repost it here - Psilocybin and the psychedelic state.

 

From what umop said about using this protocol making it easier to identify thoughts as they are, rather than identifying with them, I take to mean that the differentiation of the unified subject from the chaotic flux of processes becomes more pronounced. This might be because increasing neural entropy and the chaos of activation patterns in the brain gives one less to 'hold on' to or confuse for oneself, since the transcendent self is eternally self-similar and so in order for its identifications to hold they must also be perceived as persistent objects, which would correspond to persistent neural activation patterns. If all activity dissolves as soon as it arises ie in a state of supercriticality then identification, which relies on fixity, will also have no hold. What do you guys think about this?

 

Crow - 'I think this may be a way for the brain to balance between chaos and rigidity,by modulating its level of entropy in order to carry out efficient information processing. The brain cant be totally desynchronized since this would create way too much entropy so it would enter a state of total chaos which wouldnt be very useful, in the same way a totally synchronized brain would be rigid and also unable to function properly.'

 

Indeed a state of total chaos would not be very useful. However I find it strange that at least some neural states which are highly entropic correlate to mental states which are reported as highly conscious ie during psychedelia; this suggests to me that consciousness is positively correlated with randomness. A fascinating description of a similar hypothesis can be found here - Ben Goertzel; 'Chance and Consciousness'. An idea certainly borne out by the rapt flow of creative engagement (which is massively increased during psychedelic states), a process which relies on the coherent synthesis of random, dynamic and vital impulses. I see some fascinating parallels between the delicate balance of order and chaos in self-organised criticality and Nietzsche's take on the Apollonian and Dionysian forces of nature and artistic creativity.

 

Maximal supercritical desynchronisation is surely useless in functional or pragmatic terms, but I wonder, perhaps it could relate to very high levels of consciousness. By this reasoning of the relation of entropy and consciousness, the reason that TAGsync elevates certain aspects of experience in a manner analogous to raised consciousness is that it increases the signal aspect of the signal:noise ratio of patterns of neural activity by increasing their ability to properly integrate. What inhibition might do is to decrease the noise aspect of this ratio by further randomising background activity so that it doesn't interfere with the apprehension of the signal or divert energetic resources to their processing.

 

Umop, would you mind describing how you made the inhibit protocol? I guess it was just a tweak to TAG right? I haven't got my head around the mechanics of Bioexplorer enough to be confident with the outcomes of any tinkering I might do.

 

Edit; Hz, about EC/EO, I am now able to do TAG with eyes open now, even though I wasn't before. Or perhaps I just didn't try hard enough. I certainly feel a difference in the magnitude of the effects; EO is significantly more noticeable. This makes sense, as Dailey talks somewhere on his websites about how training front to back allows the integration of bottom-up and top-down attention, but if eyes are closed then there will be less information buzzing around the posterior visual cortex so this integration will be less effected. The increased activity of EO makes it harder to reach synchrony, but seems to produce extra effects of its own. If you can't produce it now, you'll be able to in time, as sessions with eyes closed seem to strengthen similar pathways, or perhaps even the same ones but just in a lesser way. Also, doing EC sessions themselves are also beneficial, as long as you can maintain alertness... especially if you're into meditation. When I close my eyes during TAG I feel much more blissful and complete. One thing you might try is exerting a significant amount of effort during sessions to get your Alpha and Theta levels to rise. This seems to help a lot too. At the earlier stages it seems more about strengthening the networks rather than consistently holding synchrony.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 26 October 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Crowstream]

So, if I understand umop and crow correctly, the implications of this are that by down-training amplitudes across a broad range of frequencies we will be promoting cortical desynchronisation aka increased entropy/uncertainty, a key aspect of optimal criticality. If that's right then it seems like using such a protocol would be a perfect complement to TAGsync.

 

According to the paper 'The Entropic Brain', this is also what happens during psychedelic states. There is an interesting video which relates somewhat to this that someone just posted in another thread, so I'll repost it here - Psilocybin and the psychedelic state.

 

From what umop said about using this protocol making it easier to identify thoughts as they are, rather than identifying with them, I take to mean that the differentiation of the unified subject from the chaotic flux of processes becomes more pronounced. This might be because increasing neural entropy and the chaos of activation patterns in the brain gives one less to 'hold on' to or confuse for oneself, since the transcendent self is eternally self-similar and so in order for its identifications to hold they must also be perceived as persistent objects, which would correspond to persistent neural activation patterns. If all activity dissolves as soon as it arises ie in a state of supercriticality then identification, which relies on fixity, will also have no hold. What do you guys think about this?

 

Crow - 'I think this may be a way for the brain to balance between chaos and rigidity,by modulating its level of entropy in order to carry out efficient information processing. The brain cant be totally desynchronized since this would create way too much entropy so it would enter a state of total chaos which wouldnt be very useful, in the same way a totally synchronized brain would be rigid and also unable to function properly.'

 

Indeed a state of total chaos would not be very useful. However I find it strange that at least some neural states which are highly entropic correlate to mental states which are reported as highly conscious ie during psychedelia; this suggests to me that consciousness is positively correlated with randomness. A fascinating description of a similar hypothesis can be found here - Ben Goertzel; 'Chance and Consciousness'. An idea certainly borne out by the rapt flow of creative engagement (which is massively increased during psychedelic states), a process which relies on the coherent synthesis of random, dynamic and vital impulses. I see some fascinating parallels between the delicate balance of order and chaos in self-organised criticality and Nietzsche's take on the Apollonian and Dionysian forces of nature and artistic creativity.

 

Maximal supercritical desynchronisation is surely useless in functional or pragmatic terms, but I wonder, perhaps it could relate to very high levels of consciousness. By this reasoning of the relation of entropy and consciousness, the reason that TAGsync elevates certain aspects of experience in a manner analogous to raised consciousness is that it increases the signal aspect of the signal:noise ratio of patterns of neural activity by increasing their ability to properly integrate. What inhibition might do is to decrease the noise aspect of this ratio by further randomising background activity so that it doesn't interfere with the apprehension of the signal or divert energetic resources to their processing.

 

Umop, would you mind describing how you made the inhibit protocol? I guess it was just a tweak to TAG right? I haven't got my head around the mechanics of Bioexplorer enough to be confident with the outcomes of any tinkering I might do.

 

Edit; Hz, about EC/EO, I am now able to do TAG with eyes open now, even though I wasn't before. Or perhaps I just didn't try hard enough. I certainly feel a difference in the magnitude of the effects; EO is significantly more noticeable. This makes sense, as Dailey talks somewhere on his websites about how training front to back allows the integration of bottom-up and top-down attention, but if eyes are closed then there will be less information buzzing around the posterior visual cortex so this integration will be less effected. The increased activity of EO makes it harder to reach synchrony, but seems to produce extra effects of its own. If you can't produce it now, you'll be able to in time, as sessions with eyes closed seem to strengthen similar pathways, or perhaps even the same ones but just in a lesser way. Also, doing EC sessions themselves are also beneficial, as long as you can maintain alertness... especially if you're into meditation. When I close my eyes during TAG I feel much more blissful and complete. One thing you might try is exerting a significant amount of effort during sessions to get your Alpha and Theta levels to rise. This seems to help a lot too. At the earlier stages it seems more about strengthening the networks rather than consistently holding synchrony.

 

I think you might be on to something, it would be interesting to explore higher entropy brainstates in some way, I think psychedelics can contribute to that . 

 

I have found some research on this and also neurofeedback protocols you could try: http://northstarneur...age9/page9.html

 

They have some information there about entropy in the EEG and according to them entropy is related to the level of consciousness....

 

I tried emailing them before to ask if they would sell their protocols but I didnt get any reply so maybe you have to be their client to do the training.

 

However... in the bioexplorer yahoo group file section I found that someone has uploaded free designs based on the same principles, I did try the design out and it seems to work. I just tried it a few times so I cant really say much about it other than that it is a working design.

 

I probably shouldnt talk to much about that here since this thread is about TAG Sync, maybe we could start another thread about that if anyone is interested in exploring that design.

[hza]

From what umop said about using this protocol making it easier to identify thoughts as they are, rather than identifying with them, I take to mean that the differentiation of the unified subject from the chaotic flux of processes becomes more pronounced. This might be because increasing neural entropy and the chaos of activation patterns in the brain gives one less to 'hold on' to or confuse for oneself, since the transcendent self is eternally self-similar and so in order for its identifications to hold they must also be perceived as persistent objects, which would correspond to persistent neural activation patterns. If all activity dissolves as soon as it arises ie in a state of supercriticality then identification, which relies on fixity, will also have no hold. What do you guys think about this?

 

Well for one thing, it reminds me of what you said back on a previous page, and since there's no single coherent sentence that expresses it, I'll just mash up a couple of related thoughts:

 

 "...which describes network resets in the medial prefrontal cortex (a key area of the default mode network, a network which we specifically target in TAGsync training) as being correlated with belief revision and increased environmental updating...I suspect this fragmentary process of neurocognitive systems becoming self-contained and self-producing ie dissociated to be a key underlying factor in the development of a huge number of mental illnesses, including the most common ones such as anxiety, depression, OCD and so on. If dissociation of neurocognitive structures plays a key role in mental illness, one could envision a potential future quantification of mental illness/health based on the degree of dissociation/integration of neural networks."

 

 

The picture taking shape in my mind is not a fixed or permanent state of association or dissociation, but rather a protocol or practice that occasionally shakes the whole thing up, throws the brain into a brief state of chaos and dissociation from which it rapidly recovers, but with new or somewhat changed associations, neural activation patterns rebuilt or revised on the spot, to some extent from freshly acquired sensory input.  Say you run a squash, or inhibit routine firing patterns via some other nfb protocol (or substance, let's not forget substances after all;)) that disrupts stagnant and outdated identification patterns, thoughts, beliefs...it's an endless list of mental patterning and programming that we know can outlive their usefulness.  It'd be something similar to rebooting a poorly functioning computer. 

 

For some reason I have another competing image of a snow globe being periodically shaken, which would be quite a different sort of process, but still a possible model of this sort of disruption.

 

Now what I'm not terribly clear on at this point is:  are we talking about TAG primarily here, or Umop's protocol using the TAG inhibits with a 0-40Hz squash added?  I could see very easily how "phase reset" might well describe a short, perhaps infinitesimally short burst of dissociation followed by a rapid reintegration of one's neural associations (I'm reaching for terms here, and I imagine if there are any actual neuroscientists out there reading along they must be writhing with agony in their chairs--sorry guys), or call it a reboot, or whatever.  

 

And there's another point I wonder about in regard to EEG nfb, and it's something that I've thought of off and on throughout this thread:  There seem to be at least two very different sorts of EEG nfb, one in which an equipment-based system interfaces more or less directly with the brain, and one which engages the mind.  I'll give examples of each:

 

Model 1, Brain-Computer Interface (BCI) If I have excessive high Beta activity in the temporal lobes, I can measure their activity with an EEG amp and run the data to a computer running a Bioexplorer design, which reads the data, makes calculations, and distorts video and audio output to teach my brain to alter its activity.  This happens in a manner that bypasses completely my conscious mind, meaning that no effort of willpower or trying is needed from me, and in fact such efforts are more likely to hinder the process than help.  Also, the results are very quick, and more or less permanent, although occasional reinforcement may be called for later on, depending on a great many social and environmental factors.

 

Model 2, Brain-Mind Interface (I made that up, I'm sure a proper term exists but I don't know it) If I want to learn how to will myself consistently into a pattern of EEG activity read in advanced meditators--say synchronous Alpha measured from the occipital region--then I connect electrodes to the area I'm interested in, hook them to an EEG interfaced with a computer, and ask it to tell me when I'm in the desired state.  I can do this with rewards when I hit target, warnings when I am not at target, or both.  This sort of model requires active engagement on my part.  I'm learning a conscious technique to alter my brain activity.  It takes a great deal of time and/or effort (as in the Biocybernaut process, which has been described as extraordinarily difficult to undergo, and also requires 7 intensive consecutive days of at least 12 hours of feedback and debriefing), and the effect is temporary in the sense of the brain state induced--I have a permanent skill, but the activity itself is still limited to whenever I choose to use it.  

 

I don't know which of these two models TAG is, or if possibly it represents a blending of approaches.  On the one hand, I'm pretty sure I'm consciously altering my state via meditation, but then again, I absolutely do rely on the rewards to alter activity correctly, and some of this seems to be unconscious.  I may sit down and train Theta and Alpha for synchrony, and then switch Bandpass Filter 2 to train Theta and Gamma, and my internal experience is essentially no different after a few minutes of that.  But the spectrum analyzer tells me that my activity pattern has altered, usually with more activity above 20 Hz.  Also, I use exactly the same meditative approach syncing T/A as with T/G, which is basically a generic awareness meditation, either with EC or EO with soft downward gaze.  The feedback has an effect outside of conscious effort, but it's subtle, and doesn't appear to be nearly as important as my own consciously directed efforts at changing my internal state.  

A squash is different, in all the designs I've seen. If you'd asked me yesterday, I would have said that as a technique it belongs firmly in the first camp:  fast, effective, permanent, and unconscious change.  Now I wonder if it isn't just a way to shake up the snow globe.  Obviously Umop hasn't been halving his overall brain activity each time he's run his modified protocol (and I meant to ask, is this done with or without TAG, or do you sometimes do both?).

 

 

Maximal supercritical desynchronisation is surely useless in functional or pragmatic terms, but I wonder, perhaps it could relate to very high levels of consciousness. By this reasoning of the relation of entropy and consciousness, the reason that TAGsync elevates certain aspects of experience in a manner analogous to raised consciousness is that it increases the signal aspect of the signal:noise ratio of patterns of neural activity by increasing their ability to properly integrate. What inhibition might do is to decrease the noise aspect of this ratio by further randomising background activity so that it doesn't interfere with the apprehension of the signal or divert energetic resources to their processing.

 

Or maybe a highly functioning brain is more adept at creating maximal desynchronization, or it does it more often, or is better at judging when it's appropriate to do so, or any combination of the above.  We know that the same neuron can idle at Alpha or other frequencies when not at task, and we know that a brain operating normally will immediately produce higher levels of Alpha when the eyes are closed, and immediately block it back down when the eyes open (a standard EEG assessment measures how well the brain makes this transition as part of the diagnostic process).  Clearly the brain does all these things as part of its normal functioning.  The question to me is how do TAG and other nfb interventions improve these normal functions.  I still go with the basic explanation that it strengthens communication pathways between various hubs of the brain's internal networks, or in some cases maybe establishes connection pathways that either were damaged or failed to develop normally in infancy due to trauma or other factors.  Once that's accomplished, the subsequent improvements in function in operations at the neuronal level and in the network as a whole are potentially incalculable.  

 

 

Hz, about EC/EO, I am now able to do TAG with eyes open now, even though I wasn't before. Or perhaps I just didn't try hard enough. I certainly feel a difference in the magnitude of the effects; EO is significantly more noticeable. This makes sense, as Dailey talks somewhere on his websites about how training front to back allows the integration of bottom-up and top-down attention, but if eyes are closed then there will be less information buzzing around the posterior visual cortex so this integration will be less effected. The increased activity of EO makes it harder to reach synchrony, but seems to produce extra effects of its own. If you can't produce it now, you'll be able to in time, as sessions with eyes closed seem to strengthen similar pathways, or perhaps even the same ones but just in a lesser way. Also, doing EC sessions themselves are also beneficial, as long as you can maintain alertness... especially if you're into meditation. When I close my eyes during TAG I feel much more blissful and complete. One thing you might try is exerting a significant amount of effort during sessions to get your Alpha and Theta levels to rise. This seems to help a lot too. At the earlier stages it seems more about strengthening the networks rather than consistently holding synchrony.

 

Yeah, I mentioned up there somewhere that I can at least get Alpha to increase EO now, and it appears that my Theta activity is a lot higher than I thought originally.  What I wonder about now has to do with the internal experience of phase reset.  I've made the reward ring lots of times without having done it with Theta or emg artifact, but there's absolutely no internal "felt" experience that comes with it that I can discern, and it's been a guiding principle for me that I'll recognize a phase reset when one comes along.  I'm starting to shift around to the opinion that TAG is doing something other than teaching me to be a better meditator, and that perhaps my big realizations will come when I'm away from the computer.  I think the thing for me to do for now is just continue sessions as if they're working and keep an eye on the spectrum analyzer for changes in activity, and try to drop all other judgements regarding progress or results during the sessions themselves.  

 

Crowstream, I'm following your links and articles but I haven't finished (or started, in some cases) them yet.  I never thought to look in the Bioexplorer file section for freebies--there's a biofeedback Yahoo group that I haven't joined yet too, but it was recommended in one of these threads some months ago, maybe more clues to be found there.  Interesting article at Northstar, too bad they didn't return your email--I notice that's a pretty common occurrence when dealing with nfb websites, they don't appear to like dealing with the public much.  

 

 

I probably shouldnt talk to much about that here since this thread is about TAG Sync, maybe we could start another thread about that if anyone is interested in exploring that design.

 

I think all this is related to TAG Sync.  It may not have to do with the training itself, but a lot of the discussion here is about how and why it works, and also the modifications you and umop have made to the design that really open up other areas of exploration.  I'd be in favor of another thread for general non-TAG EEG discussion though.  I don't know what we'd call it or what particularly it would be dedicated to, but we could discuss that for sure.

[Crowstream]

I am reading the entropy design manual from http://northstarneur...age9/page9.html

 

There seems to be some synergy with TAG Sync, I think that using these kinds of protocols together might increase the effect of both alone.

 

This is what it says in their manual: "Training alpha or theta synchrony between the 4 channels can aid in the communication between sites and help with balancing the entropy levels between sites. There is an emerging body of evidence that the synchronous gamma activity necessary for learning and binding information is triggered by synchronous theta activity."

 

That is precisely what TAG Sync does!

[hza]

I wonder then if it would be beneficial to run 4-ch sync designs in Alpha and Theta, but separately--Alpha in a sort of foundational training sense, then go back over with Theta to strengthen and broaden the synchronous activity and to trigger Gamma.  Then you go back over everything with the TAG protocol.  Say, spend a week doing each, one Alpha, one Theta, one TAG.  Or you could alternate days. No limit to potential combinations, really.  I've been planning to run some 4 Ch Alpha sync anyway after I get my TLC plan wrapped up.  I'll do a count tonight and see how many days of training I have left to do before I can get started.

 

I am reading the entropy design manual from http://northstarneur...age9/page9.html

 

There seems to be some synergy with TAG Sync, I think that using these kinds of protocols together might increase the effect of both alone.

 

This is what it says in their manual: "Training alpha or theta synchrony between the 4 channels can aid in the communication between sites and help with balancing the entropy levels between sites. There is an emerging body of evidence that the synchronous gamma activity necessary for learning and binding information is triggered by synchronous theta activity."

 

That is precisely what TAG Sync does!

 

[OpaqueMind]

The picture taking shape in my mind is not a fixed or permanent state of association or dissociation, but rather a protocol or practice that occasionally shakes the whole thing up, throws the brain into a brief state of chaos and dissociation from which it rapidly recovers, but with new or somewhat changed associations, neural activation patterns rebuilt or revised on the spot, to some extent from freshly acquired sensory input.

 

 

 

I think there are two ways we can go with this; the optimisation of intelligence and the optimisation of consciousness. On a moment to moment basis, I think the two have a mutual antagonism but only when pushing the highest end of each spectrum; generally up until near that point they are synergistic and not exclusive. But once you get into the highest echelons of consciousness/criticality/information fluidity aka Enlightenment it seems that the mind cannot sustain thought, which is intertwined with a kind of narrow-beam attention. For all the purposes other than this though, like intelligence enhancement, pathology reduction/elimination I think that the approach you outline is very much worthwhile.    

 

Also, I think that environmental updating as you mentioned above should be considered in terms of Neural Darwinism, with each neural cluster or system which operates autopoietically and in a self-interested manner being thought of a kind of ‘self’, and the environment being considered as other neural clusters or systems within the brain, which could represent perceptions, thoughts, feelings, memories etc. Environmental updating wouldn’t necessarily have to be updating of information derived externally from the person but could also be the synthesis and transformation of previously uncommunicative neural clusters within the brain itself, such as repressed traumas, dissociated clusters etc.

 

In a sense every thought, feeling, initiation of movement etc is momentarily dissociated from surrounding clusters, as is evidenced by the fracturing of synchrony which accompanies the appearance of any one of these... which reinforces the point that maximal association is in a pragmatic sense quite useless.

 

For some reason I have another competing image of a snow globe being periodically shaken, which would be quite a different sort of process, but still a possible model of this sort of disruption.

 

 

This reminds me very much of the effective use of psychedelics. When we have mastered the states which underlie similarly extreme and integrated states of consciousness I assume that all one would require for a periodic ‘reshake’ of the mind would be to rest within the purity of awareness in much the same way. Only the latter should be more effective at this reshake due to the dampening of the effects of state-dependent learning and memory.

 

Now what I'm not terribly clear on at this point is:  are we talking about TAG primarily here, or Umop's protocol using the TAG inhibits with a 0-40Hz squash added?  I could see very easily how "phase reset" might well describe a short, perhaps infinitesimally short burst of dissociation followed by a rapid reintegration of one's neural associations (I'm reaching for terms here, and I imagine if there are any actual neuroscientists out there reading along they must be writhing with agony in their chairs--sorry guys), or call it a reboot, or whatever.  

 

 

When I wrote that last post I was referring to Umop’s use of inhibits, but I think that TAG would cause similar effects. In relation to the ‘recalibration of the mind’, Sync and Desync protocols should be synergistic in this sense; Sync protocols (specifically cross-frequency coupled, like TAG is) will over time facilitate novel connectivity patterns within the brain by restructuring networks towards increased small-world networkness and therefore towards increasingly efficient and integrated information transmission. On the other hand. Desync protocols should help disintegrate old patterns that wouldn’t otherwise survive or be reproduced in the case of a deep state of integration with surrounding networks.

 

Model 2, Brain-Mind Interface (I made that up, I'm sure a proper term exists but I don't know it) If I want to learn how to will myself consistently into a pattern of EEG activity read in advanced meditators--say synchronous Alpha measured from the occipital region--then I connect electrodes to the area I'm interested in, hook them to an EEG interfaced with a computer, and ask it to tell me when I'm in the desired state.  I can do this with rewards when I hit target, warnings when I am not at target, or both.  This sort of model requires active engagement on my part.  I'm learning a conscious technique to alter my brain activity.  It takes a great deal of time and/or effort (as in the Biocybernaut process, which has been described as extraordinarily difficult to undergo, and also requires 7 intensive consecutive days of at least 12 hours of feedback and debriefing), and the effect is temporary in the sense of the brain state induced--I have a permanent skill, but the activity itself is still limited to whenever I choose to use it.

 

 

Your characterisation of the different EEG nfb approaches is interesting, though I think the second one is missing a crucial aspect; it is true that it requires the application of will to enter the state being targeted, but the adoption of that state over time within a session also does more than simply create the possibility of adopting that state at other times, it also seems to fundamentally alter (with repeated sessions at least) the flavour of consciousness when not volitionally engaging that state. Though you did say that you think TAG may be both, so maybe this point is invalid :P

 

I don't know which of these two models TAG is, or if possibly it represents a blending of approaches.  On the one hand, I'm pretty sure I'm consciously altering my state via meditation, but then again, I absolutely do rely on the rewards to alter activity correctly, and some of this seems to be unconscious.  I may sit down and train Theta and Alpha for synchrony, and then switch Bandpass Filter 2 to train Theta and Gamma, and my internal experience is essentially no different after a few minutes of that.  But the spectrum analyzer tells me that my activity pattern has altered, usually with more activity above 20 Hz.  Also, I use exactly the same meditative approach syncing T/A as with T/G, which is basically a generic awareness meditation, either with EC or EO with soft downward gaze.  The feedback has an effect outside of conscious effort, but it's subtle, and doesn't appear to be nearly as important as my own consciously directed efforts at changing my internal state.  

 

 

For sure, TAG is predominately consciously directed and works by far the best that way. I found that my progress also deepened and quickened by, instead of meditating and using the relatively low information bandwidth of the auditory feedback, I look directly at the visual feed of the two thresholds and try to maximize them both simultaneously with a significant effort of will. I never cease the application of this will during the session, except when I hit a state where they move in perfect synchrony with each other for a time, at which point I just try and continue with whatever mental process gave rise to the Sync. Otherwise, I am constantly trying to increase the sync amplitude for both channels no matter how high they are. Done this way, you get much more feedback about your moment-to-moment state, which allows you to better achieve it. Doing this should differentiate the subjective feel of the various partnerings of synchrony we are training.

 

 The question to me is how do TAG and other nfb interventions improve these normal functions.  I still go with the basic explanation that it strengthens communication pathways between various hubs of the brain's internal networks, or in some cases maybe establishes connection pathways that either were damaged or failed to develop normally in infancy due to trauma or other factors.  Once that's accomplished, the subsequent improvements in function in operations at the neuronal level and in the network as a whole are potentially incalculable.

 

 

Seriously, you’re spot on man. I think that TAGsync and other neurofeedback protocols will be able to take us to the upper echelons of intelligence. I already see absolutely massive improvements in myself and I know I have a loooong way to go yet! Based on the papers which describe how the most significant neural correlates of high intelligence are functional network efficiency/ small-world networkness and parieto-frontal integration, I see no reason why we won’t eventually be able to think and experience at the highest levels of human potential, given that TAGsync targets both of these!

 

Yeah, I mentioned up there somewhere that I can at least get Alpha to increase EO now, and it appears that my Theta activity is a lot higher than I thought originally.  What I wonder about now has to do with the internal experience of phase reset.  I've made the reward ring lots of times without having done it with Theta or emg artifact, but there's absolutely no internal "felt" experience that comes with it that I can discern, and it's been a guiding principle for me that I'll recognize a phase reset when one comes along.  I'm starting to shift around to the opinion that TAG is doing something other than teaching me to be a better meditator, and that perhaps my big realizations will come when I'm away from the computer.  I think the thing for me to do for now is just continue sessions as if they're working and keep an eye on the spectrum analyzer for changes in activity, and try to drop all other judgements regarding progress or results during the sessions themselves.

 

 

In my experience phase resets have no subjective correlate whatsoever, except the little ‘ping’ which greets my ears J You said it best yourself; engage with the process non-judgementally and results will come. I certainly think that TAG is doing something more than teaching us to be effective meditators... in fact so far I’ve found it best utilised not as a ‘meditation teacher’ as umop used it, but as a process which requires high levels of volition, typically the opposite of meditation. This is one of the paradoxes of meditation which seems to be reflected here; the point is to let go of all doing, but first we must tone the mind so that letting go is a productive affair. I imagine that at some point, like Crow described, I will be able to close my eyes and experience ATs by default. When it becomes default then I will begin to rest within it. Until then I feel that the gentle approach by trying to meditate with TAG may be suboptimal, at least until one has internalised the sync states to such a degree that they are held a significant amount of the time, however that is just my experience and we’re all different.

 

 

Relating to the protocol where we only use inhibits during TAG, I found some interesting parts of certain papers, specifically in relation to one my personal aims of neurofeedback training (and I think a few of us here); the ability to dissolve the ego.

 

From ‘The Entropic Brain’ - 

 

“a positive relationship has been found between self-reflection and alpha power (Knyazev et al., 2011) and alpha synchronization during rest and Blood Oxygen Level Dependent (BOLD) activity in regions of the DMN”

 

“we recently found a highly significant positive correlation between the magnitude of alpha power decreases in the PCC [a key hub of the default mode network] after psilocybin and ratings of the item “I experienced a disintegration of my ‘self’ or ‘ego’.” Scores on this item also correlated positively with decreases in delta, theta, beta, and low gamma power, although alpha explained the most variance (a considerable 66%).”

 

“It is proposed here that coupling between the MTLs [medial temporal lobes] and the cortical regions of the DMN is necessary for the maintenance of adult normal waking consciousness, with its capacity for metacognition [aka self reflection, symbolic thought]. Moreover, a breakdown in hippocampal-DMN coupling is necessary for a regression to primary consciousness [what they call pure states of consciousness with no object]. These hypotheses are motivated by our finding that DMN-hippocampal coupling is decreased under psilocybin”

 

Interestingly the reduction of alpha power (which reflects alpha desynchronisation) was highly correlated with reports of ego disintegration [what a lovely graph]. It therefore seems that if that is our aim, then alpha desync protocols could be a key aspect of our approach.

 

And there’s a bunch of related stuff in the paper ‘Mind over Chatter;...’ [if anyone wants a version of this paper with the more interesting and relevant bits highlighted, just let me know]

 

Which I’m not going to quote because it’s in pdf format and I can’t be arsed to retype out relevant quotes so I’ll just describe the key things they found; a session of alpha desynchronisation neurofeedback shortly after caused an upregulation of the salience network, which controls attention; alpha desync correlated with reduced mind-wandering and increased focus; and alpha desync in the default mode network is correlated with mindfulness. One caveat is that decreased sync between nodes possibly causes, via hebbian (un)learning, a decrease in direct connectivity between the two (and any paths in between). Probably though, other networks will be upregulated as they come into use when the ego disintegrates and the energy used to hold it together becomes free for other processes The upshot of this is that what happens if we were to use alpha (or any other frequency) Desync as a primary approach is unknown and possibly negative, but as an adjunct to TAGsync protocols running the DMN, we'll be fine. Personally I’m not (at the moment) going to run protocols like this with a ratio greater than Desync – 1 : TAGsync – 2, simply through caution for the unknown. It’d be slightly annoying if I undid some of my extensive training to any degree, or some other more insidious side effect of ego disintegration without the relative neural structures to compensate... I don’t think that would happen, but I wanna be safe anyway. I emailed Douglas about the use of desync training so hopefully I’ll hear back from him soon, and when I do, I’ll post anything relevant here. By the way I’ve tried this protocol (a simple alpha Desync between Fz and Pz) and it certainly works in the direction of disintegrating the ego! I felt a deep bliss and oneness creep up through me when I hit the sync. I didn't go in fully because of my hesitancy, but next time (possibly tomorrow) I will. Also, I understand now (looking at the above graph I linked) that really what we want to do (if our aim is total dissolution of the ego) is aim for an quick sharp push towards alpha sync... all we’d have to do is push past some threshold of ego integrity and the state would be upon us... whether it will stick for any length of time or just flash up I’m not sure, but I imagine that it will get easier as one practices reaching this state, as well as being a profound experience in itself. If anyone tries it out, do let us know your experiences

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

Id like to ask some questions to the big tagsync supporters here: why tagsync? I mean all of you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about nfb ( even more than some clinicians ive met!) so why tagsync? Many protocols out there have more correlates to improving/enhancing brain function and used clinically. I can understand the cost to entry guiding to unregulated, uncertified systems but why tagsync? Certainly smr training, leveling of right/left asymmetries and doing a qeeg (or mini-q with 2 channels) is a better starting point? If anything else, peak alpha frequency is the most directly correlated measure of IQ as is relative amplitudes of high alpha to low alpha. So i ask why start with tagsync?

[hza]

Speaking just for myself, I didn't start with TAG, and wouldn't recommend it for most EEG beginners either.  In terms of ease-of-use and support, I'd say it's a pretty rotten option.  The price point isn't even all that compelling imo, when you consider the equipment, accessory, software, and other peripheral costs of assembling one's own training kit.  When you've added all that up, you can see that you're really only saving yourself about $200-300 for the cost of a personal Q-ish assessment and essential Bioexplorer design set like those I got and learned nfb training with before getting pulled into the TAG orbit.  Of course, you could also spend a hell of a lot more getting the same basics if you're not lucky in your early research, but in general you can get set up for some self training in the basics for very little more cash outlay than you're going to spend anyway on TAG.  Rotten first choice, if you ask me.

 

But there are exceptions, and there are some very exceptional people drawn to EEG nfb, some highly capable, adventurous, intelligent sorts with a strong streak of DIY in their personal makeup.  I suspect these are all necessary qualities in some degree for a sufficient level of interest just to get past the tipping point into spending the money and time that a hobby like nfb inevitably requires (It also could be argued that one might ought to be a tad reckless).  I'm not going to point any fingers, but I don't think it'd be too difficult to spot evidence of most of these characteristics scattered liberally throughout this thread.  If you're going to ask someone bitten by the nfb bug, "why start with TAG," you almost might as well be asking "why do your own nfb?" because once you've determined you're going to do the latter, it's a very short step (or stumble) into the former.

 

That's probably the best answer I could give.  I think I should probably leave it there.

 

Id like to ask some questions to the big tagsync supporters here: why tagsync? I mean all of you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about nfb ( even more than some clinicians ive met!) so why tagsync? Many protocols out there have more correlates to improving/enhancing brain function and used clinically. I can understand the cost to entry guiding to unregulated, uncertified systems but why tagsync? Certainly smr training, leveling of right/left asymmetries and doing a qeeg (or mini-q with 2 channels) is a better starting point? If anything else, peak alpha frequency is the most directly correlated measure of IQ as is relative amplitudes of high alpha to low alpha. So i ask why start with tagsync?

 

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

Thats a very honest & insightful answer that i can give a lot of respect to. To answer your question, i own a lot of nfb equipment because i am someone with a good scientific background who discovered it through clinicians and got drawn to it after uncovereing how it can really correct certain conditions neurologically instead of just its symptoms. Since then ive had a fair amount of experience with it and ot has certainly been a temendous positive contributor to my life. That being said, what ignited my comment was the fact that many people on this board are looking for a solution to their problems (at least in the brain health section of the forum) and even post on this thread with those issues. I would not want them to go through tagsync (and its steep learning curve) when there are more proven methods studied for their symptoms. It really ignited a sort of professional perspective that i wanted to verbalize. Your answer was as intelligent as can be expected and very reasonable. I will myself try tagsync when i set it up on my system but users of this forum looking to treat symptoms associated with anxiety, add/adhd, depression and such should know that nfb is a well studied therapeutic option that can retrain your brain but u do need good guidance for it to be effective. Standard protocols will help but optimized treatment by an expert will probably be better (depending on the "expert"). Anyone needing guidance can msg me. Thank you all, i will post my tagsync experiences when i get around to it!

[OpaqueMind]

Each of us will probably espouse our 'first love' in the neurofeedback domain. Since I haven't properly tried out that many different protocols outside of TAGsync, I can't really comment as to their relative efficacy, though I can comment on TAGsync's unique approach and the merits of its methodology. One of the key benefits of TAGsync is that it allows you to train cross-frequency coupling between any 2 (or 4, with modifications) sites on the brain and between a variety of frequencies. One of the best articles I've come across that describes the significance of CFC for overall brain function can be found here. Extremely briefly, cross frequency coupling is thought to integrate local and global information processing in the brain, with local and global being relative directions, essentially moving up and down the nested hierarchy of networks within networks within networks etc. By integrating systems in the brain more effectively across space and time, information flows more freely throughout the neural networks, increasingly approximating optimal self-organised criticality. The functional organisation of the brain is tightly correlated to levels of intelligence, and TAGsync essentially allows the brain to rewire itself very far in the direction of this optimal organisation, which embodies a small-world network structure. With TAGsync, we can also directly target and bolster the Fronto-Parietal networks, which have also been shown to correlate strongly with intelligence. Functional network efficiency embodying small world networks and parieto-frontal integration are the two most reliable measures of intelligence so far conceived in the neuroscience literature. And both are effected or potentially effected (depending on the positioning of electrodes) by TAG, a protocol which requires no EEG mapping due to the universality of the functions it trains (CFCs), is cheap as protocols go, and is easy to use once familiar with.

 

As far as I know, this mode of action is completely unique among the various neurofeedback protocols that exist. I haven't done justice to its methodology here, and I haven't even touched on it's profound effects and widespread applicability for both extreme enhancement of performance in healthy individuals as well as complete remediation of a significant number of pathologies, particularly depression, anxiety disorder, PTSD and autism, and quite probably many more, given how deeply it can reorganise and optimise brain function. So you can see why I rave about it, although of course a significant part of that is due to my own profound personal experience with it. Nonetheless you don't have to take my word for it, the pieces of this puzzle are all available in the relative literature, a quest best guided by the information at TAGsynchrony.com.

[Bogumił Hrabal]

Hello,

I have some questions. Could you explain the (possible) difference between these EEG-notions: sychrony-, coherence-, phase-training? Is it possible to perform TAG Sync. on Neurobit Optima 2 (2 channels) device with BioExplorer? Why the TAG Sync.? I mean why not based on EEG implemetation peak performance protocols (increasing the persistence or amplitude of gamma (I have found one interesting)) - I don't know the details - for instance, according to the book 'Neurotherapy: Essential Integrative Interventions' (p. 149), these deveoped or examined by: Swingle (2008), Cowan (2007, 2009), Sokhadze (2011), Gruzelier and Egner (2003), Gruzelier (2009) and Strack, Linden and Wilson (2011).

Up to 30 minutes after learning piano lesson (and also solving mathematic problems) I can read perfectly books (feeling - don't think of me as if I were insane or sth like that - plesant chilling behind my left ear), so is it worth buying Neurobit Optima 2 to create protocols from these experiences (and others like staight after awakening (increased language fluency)? Would it be rather necessary or sufficient condition? Do you know you can mimic LSD experience training created LSD-protocol?

Edited by Bogumił Hrabal, 08 November 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[Arjuna]

Well I guess this proves that biohacking like any other hobby: it gets exponentially more expensive as you go into it.

 

: (

[Crowstream]

Hello,

I have some questions. Could you explain the (possible) difference between these EEG-notions: sychrony-, coherence-, phase-training? Is it possible to perform TAG Sync. on Neurobit Optima 2 (2 channels) device with BioExplorer? Why the TAG Sync.? I mean why not based on EEG implemetation peak performance protocols (increasing the persistence or amplitude of gamma (I have found one interesting)) - I don't know the details - for instance, according to the book 'Neurotherapy: Essential Integrative Interventions' (p. 149), these deveoped or examined by: Swingle (2008), Cowan (2007, 2009), Sokhadze (2011), Gruzelier and Egner (2003), Gruzelier (2009) and Strack, Linden and Wilson (2011).

Up to 30 minutes after learning piano lesson (and also solving mathematic problems) I can read perfectly books (feeling - don't think of me as if I were insane or sth like that - plesant chilling behind my left ear), so is it worth buying Neurobit Optima 2 to create protocols from these experiences (and others like staight after awakening (increased language fluency)? Would it be rather necessary or sufficient condition? Do you know you can mimic LSD experience training created LSD-protocol?

 

Hi Bogumil, I will try to answer your questions . Synchrony, coherence and phase are related concepts, so it can be hard to understand the difference. I think they all have to do with time. If you think about an EEG signal, it can get stronger or weaker, but it can also change its timing and rhythm, I think thats where synchrony, coherence and phase comes in.

 

According to scholarpedia (http://www.scholarpe...ticle/Synchrony) synchrony "means adjustment of rhythms of self-sustained periodic oscillators due to their weak interaction". I guess thats easier to understand if you look at the clocks they use as examples for this. Basicly the cells in the brain are like those clocks in that they have their own rhythms, which can sometimes match up with the rhythm of other cells, when they do, they are in synchrony, which means they fire at very similar (or the same) frequency. If you have a lot of cells synchronized at the same frequency, then the signal at that frequency will become stronger (increase in amplitude), and thats what we can measure with TAG Sync. What is special about TAG Sync, if you compare it to most other protocols is that in TAG Sync you combine the signal from two electrodes (Fz and Pz usually) and you train this signal, when it gets strong it means that cells under both electrodes are synchronized at the same frequency, so it is measuring long-range connections between cells in the brain. That makes it possible to train these long-range connections, which according to a lot of new neuroscientific litterature, is a very good thing to do.

 

Coherence is similar, but not the same, according to scholarpedia again   (http://www.scholarpe...e_and_coherence) "The coherence of a signal pair is also a correlation coefficient (squared); it measures the phase consistency between pairs of signals in each frequency band." I think a correlation coefficient basicly means you have run some statistics on two signals to look at their correlation, this is not what you do with synchrony since synchrony does not need you to run statistics because it will just increase the amplitude of a signal directly. Phase consistency I guess means how often two signals are in rhythm with each other or not, so it is similar to synchrony in that way but it is more of an indirect measurement, since it is statistical it will measure averages over time.

 

Phase-training, I guess is any training that focuses more on timing of signals. TAG Sync is built on the principle of Phase-Amplitude Coupling, which means for example the phase (timing) of theta waves in the brain will control the amplitude of higher frequency signals like gamma. Theta and gamma are phase-amplitude coupled signals. That means you can use theta to change gamma. This applies for many (perhaps all brainwaves), the phase of lower frequency signals will control the amplitude of higher frequency signals in general I think. This is a part of Cross-Frequency Coupling which is another principle that TAG Sync makes use of.

 

I think you can run TAG Sync with any EEG device that has 2 or more channels and can use bioexplorer, you could also use the 1-channel TAG Sync design, but the 2-channel design is much better in my opinion.

 

Why TAG Sync? Well for me I think there are many reasons, TAG Sync is a very pioneering design in my opinion, it is different from a lot of other neurofeedback protocols and it makes use of a lot of new neuroscience. I have looked at many protocols and I have never found one with so much neuroscience articles to support it. As I already mentioned, it uses phase-amplitude coupling, cross-frequency coupling and many other concepts from neuroscience, this is not at all the case for most other neurofeedback protocols. I am sure other protocols can also be useful, in fact I am exploring several others but TAG Sync has been my absolute favorite so far and I keep getting a lot of benefit from using it so I can recommend it  .

 

If I understand you correctly, you also want to create your own training protocols to get into the state you feel after piano lessons or mathematics? I think that is possible but probably very hard, its basicly what they do at the biocybernaut institute (http://www.biocybernaut.com/). For example they have recorded the brain activity of advanced meditators, and then used that data to create very advanced brain maps. They can then use those maps to train people to get into the same state.

This has also been done in sports for example, if you are good at a sport it is because you have good brain activity and you can measure that and train others to do the same thing. By doing that they have made people better at golf and other sports, I know there is an article about this but I cant remember where I found it right now...

 

Mapping your own brain activity to make training protocols is probably very hard, you will need good tools for analyzing the data to see the patterns. It will probably be faster and easier to just get into the state however you do it now. 

 

I dont know if you can mimic an LSD experience with a neurofeedback protocol, but I think that probably yes, you can do it. It will not be as strong as taking LSD of course, it will probably be a lot weaker. I dont know if you have read this article already, we have linked it a few times in this thread before: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24550805

In that article they study the effects of psilocybin which is similar to LSD. What they find is global broadband desynchronization, basicly all frequencies decrease in synchrony. This is not at all what TAG Sync training does, it is basicly the opposite. In TAG Sync we are traing to increase theta, alpha and gamma synchrony. In the article they specifically find alpha desynchronization to be related to the experience of ego-dissolution, I dont know if that is an experience you are looking for or not with LSD, but it is a pretty common occurence with psychedelics  . You could create a neurofeedback protocol to train alpha desynchronization, but it would basicly be doing the opposite thing that TAG Sync does. We dont know if doing both would negate each other or perhaps if they could work well together, but I know some people are experimenting with this.

 

I hope that answers your questions  .

[hza]

Well damn, Crow, that blows away anything I was thinking about answering those questions with.  I would just note that in terms of TAG anyway, I've had this idea that synchrony, phase, and coherence all refer to the goal of training two (or more) signals of different frequency to rise and fall together in amplitude, and that coherence is a measure of how in-phase these signals are (I think of stereo speakers playing bass when I think of phase:  if you process the bass in an audio signal to playback in mono, your woofers move in phase with each other and produce a much more powerful thump, but if wired in stereo then they move out of phase with one another and the bass effect is muddier and more muffled sounding).  

 

Viewed another way, if you look at brainwaves in a 2-dimensional rendering on x/y axes as sine waves, and you stack one on top of the other (the wave can either chart the actual frequency of the signal, or it could chart the fluctuations in amplitude--brain waves pulse regularly in strength, or they appear to anyway when you view them in an EEG histogram), assuming the peaks and troughs are of equal size, if you slide one of the waves left or right, you can make the peaks and troughs line up with one another (in phase) or one wave can peak before or after the other one (out of phase), and if you time it so the peak of one correlates with the trough of the other then they can negate each other (this is the principle behind noise-canceling headphones and acoustic devices).  I don't know if any of that is correct, but that's the model I've been working with.  Looks like a mess when I try to put it in writing, I admit.

 

What I'm even less clear on is how TAG determines these metrics.  I've been teaching myself how to read Bioexplorer designs from the Signal Diagram window, but I'm not very deep into it yet so I haven't learned where to look to see how data is being measured and computed (I assume it's not actually all that difficult).  But anyway, you're measuring activity in 2 bands (like Alpha and Theta) at 2 sites (like Pz and Fz).  Amplitude of each frequency is represented on one gauge for each.  My assumption has been that (in this case) Alpha and Theta are being measured at both sites, and that each gauge is presenting an average amplitude.  But on reflection it seems just as likely that (for example) Alpha is measured at Fz, Theta is measured at Pz, and the TAG design sets about helping the subject synchronize the activity in those 2 bands from those 2 sites.

 

I had this idea that brain waves are generated locally, i.e. Theta at Pz is generated at Pz, Alpha at Oz is generated at Oz, etc, but in reality these rhythms--or Alpha anyway, from what I gather--are generated deep inside the brain, and at any given site the neurons (?) are either resonating with that inner oscillation or tied up with some local task.  So at any given time, Alpha measured anywhere across the brain should all be at the same frequency and in coherence (?god I feel like such a dumbass trying to puzzle this out)--is synchrony then a question of amplitude? that is, do we say Alpha at Oz and Pz are in sync if they are resonating at roughly equal amplitude? and that by training synchrony across sites in a single frequency, we're training those sites into a state of dominant activity at that frequency?  Does anybody understand this?  I thought I had some vague idea of what was going on, but honestly I can see I need to do some more reading.

 

So forget that for now.  At a fundamental level I really don't understand a lot of what EEG measures.  What the hell actually takes place in a "phase reset?"  I'm going to go climb a tree and think about bananas for a half hour or so.

 

Getting back to what I was talking about in an earlier post, my idea was that it would be good to work with simpler 4-channel sync designs just to give the brain some training at increasing synchrony at a single frequency across a wide area.  The idea came from this fragment that Crow quoted from that entropy design manual:  "Training alpha or theta synchrony between the 4 channels can aid in the communication between sites and help with balancing the entropy levels between sites. There is an emerging body of evidence that the synchronous gamma activity necessary for learning and binding information is triggered by synchronous theta activity."  IOW it looks as though there's evidence that simply training up Theta synchrony automatically increases Gamma sync, whether you're actively trying to promote it or not.  And this also seems to state pretty clearly that just training synchrony in either Theta or Alpha boosts communication, just like training up resting state network hubs in the brain using TAG sync.  

 

So it seems to me training 4-ch Alpha sync and Theta sync separately might be good practice or exercise for TAG Sync, especially if you're like me and having a hard time producing synchrony with just the TAG design.  

 

Another reason I'm interested in working with Alpha Sync is because this is the focus of two very different but apparently profound approaches that have gotten quite famous.  One is Jim Hardt's work at Biocybernaut Institute (Crowsteam links them above), and the other is Les Fehmi's Open Focus work which I've invoked many times in EEG discussions here and elsewhere.  Fehmi made some kind of device that splits a single EEG channel 5 ways to monitor and train up Alpha synchrony across 5 sites (I found out the sites once but lost the information :( but at least I know the info is out there somewhere to be found again--and it's not in Fehmi's books, either).  Hardt otoh designed his system to teach how to guide yourself into a state of heightened Alpha synchrony--the feedback tells you if you're there or not--and apparently it's hard as hell to learn, and takes a week of 12-14 hour days to get the knack.  

 

Both these methods conform to findings that advanced meditators produce high synchronous Alpha starting at the back of the head and, at deeper states and with greater meditative ability, creeping around the sides and up the midline.  Both methods claim to produce all kinds of benefits in equanimity and cognitive function in day-to-day life.

 

Coupling this with the bit from the entropy design manual, I wonder if Gamma isn't implicated in here somewhere too.  At any rate there are a handful of synchrony designs in my TLC pack (including one called CON2C that appears to be designed to do almost exactly the same thing TAG Sync does), and since I've found all my other TLC designs to be easy to use and reliably effective, I'm going to work with these also and see if it doesn't improve my results.  If I can get through my daily study stack with enough time leftover today, I'll try 4-Ch Alpha on the midline. 

 

One other thought on the ego that I've been meaning to mention here:  it is strongly correlated with P4.  I ran into a section on this at the brain-trainer FAQs and they say that a high level of Alpha activity at P4 is correlated with a sense of ego dissolution, and/or oneness with the universe.  That's not in connection with anything in particular, but if it's a priority for you to increase your capacity for nondual awareness, you might consider making P4 a part of your TAG routine.

 

It's been a slow week for EEG training for me--I think I must be experiencing some kind of study fatigue because I've only managed to get through my allotted course work twice this week; normally it can be slow but I always finish.  Many days even if I do finish, it's already so late that I don't have any time left over for EEG.  Hope I can get that turned around because I really want to work with some of these TLC designs now, and I was just starting to get a good daily habit with TAG right before my productivity crashed.  

 

How are you guys doing?

[Crowstream]

Well damn, Crow, that blows away anything I was thinking about answering those questions with.  I would just note that in terms of TAG anyway, I've had this idea that synchrony, phase, and coherence all refer to the goal of training two (or more) signals of different frequency to rise and fall together in amplitude, and that coherence is a measure of how in-phase these signals are (I think of stereo speakers playing bass when I think of phase:  if you process the bass in an audio signal to playback in mono, your woofers move in phase with each other and produce a much more powerful thump, but if wired in stereo then they move out of phase with one another and the bass effect is muddier and more muffled sounding).  

 

Viewed another way, if you look at brainwaves in a 2-dimensional rendering on x/y axes as sine waves, and you stack one on top of the other (the wave can either chart the actual frequency of the signal, or it could chart the fluctuations in amplitude--brain waves pulse regularly in strength, or they appear to anyway when you view them in an EEG histogram), assuming the peaks and troughs are of equal size, if you slide one of the waves left or right, you can make the peaks and troughs line up with one another (in phase) or one wave can peak before or after the other one (out of phase), and if you time it so the peak of one correlates with the trough of the other then they can negate each other (this is the principle behind noise-canceling headphones and acoustic devices).  I don't know if any of that is correct, but that's the model I've been working with.  Looks like a mess when I try to put it in writing, I admit.

 

What I'm even less clear on is how TAG determines these metrics.  I've been teaching myself how to read Bioexplorer designs from the Signal Diagram window, but I'm not very deep into it yet so I haven't learned where to look to see how data is being measured and computed (I assume it's not actually all that difficult).  But anyway, you're measuring activity in 2 bands (like Alpha and Theta) at 2 sites (like Pz and Fz).  Amplitude of each frequency is represented on one gauge for each.  My assumption has been that (in this case) Alpha and Theta are being measured at both sites, and that each gauge is presenting an average amplitude.  But on reflection it seems just as likely that (for example) Alpha is measured at Fz, Theta is measured at Pz, and the TAG design sets about helping the subject synchronize the activity in those 2 bands from those 2 sites.

 

I had this idea that brain waves are generated locally, i.e. Theta at Pz is generated at Pz, Alpha at Oz is generated at Oz, etc, but in reality these rhythms--or Alpha anyway, from what I gather--are generated deep inside the brain, and at any given site the neurons (?) are either resonating with that inner oscillation or tied up with some local task.  So at any given time, Alpha measured anywhere across the brain should all be at the same frequency and in coherence (?god I feel like such a dumbass trying to puzzle this out)--is synchrony then a question of amplitude? that is, do we say Alpha at Oz and Pz are in sync if they are resonating at roughly equal amplitude? and that by training synchrony across sites in a single frequency, we're training those sites into a state of dominant activity at that frequency?  Does anybody understand this?  I thought I had some vague idea of what was going on, but honestly I can see I need to do some more reading.

 

So forget that for now.  At a fundamental level I really don't understand a lot of what EEG measures.  What the hell actually takes place in a "phase reset?"  I'm going to go climb a tree and think about bananas for a half hour or so.

 

Getting back to what I was talking about in an earlier post, my idea was that it would be good to work with simpler 4-channel sync designs just to give the brain some training at increasing synchrony at a single frequency across a wide area.  The idea came from this fragment that Crow quoted from that entropy design manual:  "Training alpha or theta synchrony between the 4 channels can aid in the communication between sites and help with balancing the entropy levels between sites. There is an emerging body of evidence that the synchronous gamma activity necessary for learning and binding information is triggered by synchronous theta activity."  IOW it looks as though there's evidence that simply training up Theta synchrony automatically increases Gamma sync, whether you're actively trying to promote it or not.  And this also seems to state pretty clearly that just training synchrony in either Theta or Alpha boosts communication, just like training up resting state network hubs in the brain using TAG sync.  

 

So it seems to me training 4-ch Alpha sync and Theta sync separately might be good practice or exercise for TAG Sync, especially if you're like me and having a hard time producing synchrony with just the TAG design.  

 

Another reason I'm interested in working with Alpha Sync is because this is the focus of two very different but apparently profound approaches that have gotten quite famous.  One is Jim Hardt's work at Biocybernaut Institute (Crowsteam links them above), and the other is Les Fehmi's Open Focus work which I've invoked many times in EEG discussions here and elsewhere.  Fehmi made some kind of device that splits a single EEG channel 5 ways to monitor and train up Alpha synchrony across 5 sites (I found out the sites once but lost the information :( but at least I know the info is out there somewhere to be found again--and it's not in Fehmi's books, either).  Hardt otoh designed his system to teach how to guide yourself into a state of heightened Alpha synchrony--the feedback tells you if you're there or not--and apparently it's hard as hell to learn, and takes a week of 12-14 hour days to get the knack.  

 

Both these methods conform to findings that advanced meditators produce high synchronous Alpha starting at the back of the head and, at deeper states and with greater meditative ability, creeping around the sides and up the midline.  Both methods claim to produce all kinds of benefits in equanimity and cognitive function in day-to-day life.

 

Coupling this with the bit from the entropy design manual, I wonder if Gamma isn't implicated in here somewhere too.  At any rate there are a handful of synchrony designs in my TLC pack (including one called CON2C that appears to be designed to do almost exactly the same thing TAG Sync does), and since I've found all my other TLC designs to be easy to use and reliably effective, I'm going to work with these also and see if it doesn't improve my results.  If I can get through my daily study stack with enough time leftover today, I'll try 4-Ch Alpha on the midline. 

 

One other thought on the ego that I've been meaning to mention here:  it is strongly correlated with P4.  I ran into a section on this at the brain-trainer FAQs and they say that a high level of Alpha activity at P4 is correlated with a sense of ego dissolution, and/or oneness with the universe.  That's not in connection with anything in particular, but if it's a priority for you to increase your capacity for nondual awareness, you might consider making P4 a part of your TAG routine.

 

It's been a slow week for EEG training for me--I think I must be experiencing some kind of study fatigue because I've only managed to get through my allotted course work twice this week; normally it can be slow but I always finish.  Many days even if I do finish, it's already so late that I don't have any time left over for EEG.  Hope I can get that turned around because I really want to work with some of these TLC designs now, and I was just starting to get a good daily habit with TAG right before my productivity crashed.  

 

How are you guys doing?

 

Hey hza!   This synchrony business is pretty confusing I admit :D I might be mistaken in my interpretation, but it is the best one I have been able to come up with so far at least. Maybe we are both right, I also think that we are training the signals of different frequencies to rise and fall together in amplitude, like when we are training alpha and theta at the same time. I am not sure if theta and alpha can be in synchrony, since they are different frequencies their rhythms are different. But  if you use the definition "adjustment of rhythms of self-sustained periodic oscillators due to their weak interaction" then maybe there can be synchronization between alpha and theta since they could at least have an influence on each others rhythms through their interaction.

 

Maybe music is a good analogy to this, where frequencies are different, but can interact to form chords which are composites of different frequencies. There could be a lot of interactions between brainwaves in a similar way.

We do know that there is cross-frequency and phase-amplitude couplings which seem to indicate something like this! Douglas Dailey sometimes talks about the brain being somewhat like a drum, you have to tune each individual tether of the drum for the drum to produce the sounds you want when you hit it. In this way tuning individual frequencies are like tuning the tethers, and taken as a whole they contribute to a whole-brain pattern of activity.

 

My thinking about neural synchrony is influenced by this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23236202

It was quite a long time ago now since I read it so I dont remember everything exactly, but I think the main finding was:

"The findings presented here offer direct experimental evidence for the long hypothesized dependence of EEG amplitude on the synchrony of neuronal sources rather than simply the strength of their activation. More specifically, we demonstrate how neural synchrony “amplifies” the contribution of localized neural activity (LFP) into the EEG, thus explaining the amplitude differences often observed between intracranial and surface measurements of neural activity."

 

So I think what this means is that when we measure brainwaves, the change in the amplitude that we observe is in part because of changes in the strength of activation, but also because of changes in neural synchrony. Neural synchrony meaning that larger groups of neurons have organized their firing patterns at a particular frequency, so the increase in amplitude then is because of an increased number of cells firing at that frequency.

 

I am still a bit confused by this so maybe I should go read up more on synchrony, but my thinking is generally this: 

-A certain % of the amplitude change is because of neural synchrony

-When you combine the measurements of 2 or more sites, like Fz and Pz, you amplify this effect, my thinking is that if you are watching a signal like we use in TAG Sync, which combines two sites, then any large increase in this signal will most likely be because of neural synchrony, because any change that is only local to one electrode will not be sufficient to raise the signal to its top say 20%. If you get a large increase in the signal, I think it means that both electrodes are contributing to this, and if they are then this must be because of neural synchrony between them (indicating a long-range connection)

 

Its just an interpretation I have made so far from what I have read, I will have to look into it some more  .

 

I think you are right about brainwaves and phase, my thinking is that when you combine 2 sites like Fz and Pz, if the signals are out of phase, they will tend to cancel each other out and amplify each other when in phase. If they are in phase then the peaks and troughs will coincide and produce higher amplitudes.

 

The way the TAG Sync design works is to first filter the raw signal from each channel through a 1-60hz ish hz filter and then the signals are combined, after that they are fed into different filters for each reward. So the rewards are always the combined signal of both Fz and Pz.

 

I am not sure about exactly where the brainwaves come from, but I know for example that the theta rhythm is said to originate in the limbic system, more specifically the hippocampus but I think other places in the brain also produce this rhythm so it seems to be distributed also. The alpha rhythm I think is more related to the cerebral cortex. In general I think the brainwaves follow the evolution of the human brain, delta is related to more primitive structures and is also the dominant rhythm for reptiles, theta is the dominant rhythm for a lot of mammals and alpha I think is an adult human dominant brainwave so I guess in general the older the brain structure the more delta will be involved in that structure.

 

Phase resets I think are part of the normal cycling of neurons where they form temporary groups of neurons that will cooperate to solve a particular problem/computation in the brain, and when that is solved they phase reset, which means they change their firing pattern and go back to an idling state, ready to be recruited once again into a larger network, when recruited they will phase-lock which means they will fire together with other neurons in the group, I think this is very much related to neural synchrony. When you see a lot of desynchronization in the EEG I think more neurons are in idling states, and thus not connected to larger groups of neurons. When you see synchrony it means groups of neurons are recruited together at that frequency.

 

 

I think you are right about theta sync leading to gamma sync, I think that is because of phase-amplitude coupling and cross-frequency coupling in general. I think what theta does is to start establishing a long-distance connection and gamma "finishes the job" by binding separate networks together, this is called spike-timing dependent neuroplasticity. It may be why using TAG Sync can be such a joyous experience, because you are experiencing the integration of your neural networks  .

 

Les Fehmis invention I think is just an electrode that is separated to go to 5 different places. I think it might be possible to buy one and use it with TAG Sync. Thats what Douglas told me when I asked him about increasing the number of channels in the design, he said I could just use a split-electrode like Les Fehmi.

 

That P4 may be connected to the ego is interesting, I am still confused because in the Entropic Brain article they link alpha desynchronization to ego-dissolution whereas Les Fehmi and the biocybernaut institute claim the opposite, that alpha synchrony is related to ego-dissolution. Maybe they mean the same thing but are measuring in different ways or using their concepts differently? In any case it always seems to be the parietal lobe, Pz or P4 and alpha seems to be involved so I guess all we can do is to keep experimenting and seeing what kind of effects we can get from training!

 

 

I am really happy about how my training is going  I feel like my mind is stabilizing into meditative states quite a lot and I feel more and more at peace and clear-minded.

 

I have constructed a neurofeedback routine that looks like this:

1. TAG Sync 4-channels T3-T4-C3-C4 - to increase the communication and integration between my left and right hemispheres

2. TAG Sync 1-channel T3-T4 - Infra-low frequency and delta - to increase the differentiation and help my hemispheres also work more independently of each other

3. TAG Sync 4-channels T3-T4-C3-C4 - again to balance out the differentiation of nr 2.

4. Entropy 4-channels T3-T4-C3-C4 - I made this protocol from modifying a 2 channel protocol that I found - I use this to increase differentiation 

 

And then I repeat, I just started it so I have just run the ILF and entropy once so far in this cycle. My intention is to both increase integration and differentiation, this may seem paradoxical but I think both are important for healthy brain function since they both contribute to increasing the complexity of the brain, which I think is beneficial.

 

In addition to this I am somewhat obsessed with constructing a similar training protocol to the Biocybernaut Alpha One training  . I am collecting any information I can find on these protocols and compiling a document that I will use to create a bioexplorer design for this. They dont reveal all of their methods but I have been able to find quite a lot, enough to construct a working protocol I think. I am having some problems though. For example, in Alpha One you do 2 minutes of eyes closed auditory only feedback, followed by 8 seconds eyes open looking at a visual display of your result over the last 2 minute epoch. This is difficult to create in bioexplorer but I have some ideas on how to solve it, I think I can create similar visual representations, and then I can probably find a timer program online that can beep at 2 minute intervals with a pleasant sound, and then you open your eyes and look at the display. If I set the visual displays to average their data over 2 minutes then they will basicly show your the average data for that epoch...

Another problem is that they use 4 audio feedback sounds, 1 for each channel (they use O1,O2,C3,C4 in alpha one I believe), and each sound has its own speaker. In bioexplorer you can only choose left or right speaker so I havent thought of a way to do 4 speakers yet...

 

Thats basicly where I am at in my neurofeedback journey right now  .

[hza]

Thanks Crow, that's a lot to chew on but it helps sort some things out.  Like I said, I expect to sort out a lot by examining the various designs in Bioexplorer, the big challenge these days is finding the time.  

 

In general I think the brainwaves follow the evolution of the human brain, delta is related to more primitive structures and is also the dominant rhythm for reptiles, theta is the dominant rhythm for a lot of mammals and alpha I think is an adult human dominant brainwave so I guess in general the older the brain structure the more delta will be involved in that structure.

 

That sounds familiar to me too, although I have no idea now where I read that or how long ago.

 

Phase resets I think are part of the normal cycling of neurons where they form temporary groups of neurons that will cooperate to solve a particular problem/computation in the brain, and when that is solved they phase reset, which means they change their firing pattern and go back to an idling state, ready to be recruited once again into a larger network, when recruited they will phase-lock which means they will fire together with other neurons in the group, I think this is very much related to neural synchrony. When you see a lot of desynchronization in the EEG I think more neurons are in idling states, and thus not connected to larger groups of neurons. When you see synchrony it means groups of neurons are recruited together at that frequency.

 

That's a very clear explanation, and makes intuitive sense.  

 

I think you are right about theta sync leading to gamma sync, I think that is because of phase-amplitude coupling and cross-frequency coupling in general. I think what theta does is to start establishing a long-distance connection and gamma "finishes the job" by binding separate networks together, this is called spike-timing dependent neuroplasticity. It may be why using TAG Sync can be such a joyous experience, because you are experiencing the integration of your neural networks.

 

Well, it's not really my idea about Theta sync--->Gamma sync, that was just what the quoted passage seemed to be saying.  I did manage to find the download link for the entire manual; it's on the to-do pile atm as I'd like to learn more about this entropy protocol.  As for the joyous experience of TAG, I haven't had that pleasure yet, which is why I was asking earlier about the felt experience of phase resets.  

 

Les Fehmis invention I think is just an electrode that is separated to go to 5 different places. I think it might be possible to buy one and use it with TAG Sync. Thats what Douglas told me when I asked him about increasing the number of channels in the design, he said I could just use a split-electrode like Les Fehmi.

 

That was my impression, too.  They're definitely for sale, but for reasons which elude me it's damned near impossible to find anything out online about them.  It may be that you have to contact Fehmi directly or attend a seminar.  It might even be possible to make your own just with some simple wire splicing, although some amplification might be necessary, which would be a good potential way to fry your EEG amp.  For the time being, 4 channels of TAG is probably enough to keep us all busy.  I had the idea of running 4 simultaneous bipolar montages, but then I remembered that on the Q-Wiz at least, there are no reference electrodes for channels 3 and 4.  I wonder if it would be possible to run TAG at 6 sites by wiring Channels 1 and 2 bipolar and 3 and 4 mono.  It's beyond my current level of understanding to know if that would be plausible, or just a supremely stupid idea.  

 

 

I have constructed a neurofeedback routine that looks like this:

1. TAG Sync 4-channels T3-T4-C3-C4 - to increase the communication and integration between my left and right hemispheres

2. TAG Sync 1-channel T3-T4 - Infra-low frequency and delta - to increase the differentiation and help my hemispheres also work more independently of each other

3. TAG Sync 4-channels T3-T4-C3-C4 - again to balance out the differentiation of nr 2.

4. Entropy 4-channels T3-T4-C3-C4 - I made this protocol from modifying a 2 channel protocol that I found - I use this to increase differentiation

 

Is this all in a single day, or how do you spread that out?

 

My intention is to both increase integration and differentiation, this may seem paradoxical but I think both are important for healthy brain function since they both contribute to increasing the complexity of the brain, which I think is beneficial.

 

I don't think it's any more paradoxical that training HEG activation and deactivation--the sychronisation effect is temporary, and obviously so too is the entropy effect.  I guess as an analogy this resembles stretching or yoga exercises:  you're increasing functional flexibility, and the ability for the brain to reproduce these effects on its own with more facility.  And also increased complexity, as you note.  Seems intuitive enough to me, although again my intuitive model is worth very little in terms of what is likely really happening in a neurological sense.

 

In addition to this I am somewhat obsessed with constructing a similar training protocol to the Biocybernaut Alpha One training 

 

I would be so all over this.  Biocybernaut training to me is like the holy grail of EEG nfb, and in fact it's the original protocol that got me interested in nfb years ago.  It's been a few years since I did any research into it, but you're right, there are some hints and crumbs out there to be found, including a few on the BioC website itself.  Unfortunately Hardt doesn't appear to have written any books on the subject (except a glorified sales brochure with the help of Bill Harris), but from his website it seems he's published a lot of research papers on his findings...I just don't know where or how one gains access to that sort of thing.  

 

As far as the audio feedback sounds, why not just use 4 different MIDI tones and use headphones?  I suppose it's possible localizing the sounds in their own dedicated spatial relationship to the head might have some training benefit, but short of adapting Bioexplorer for surround sound (which is probably orders of magnitude more difficult than adding extra channels in the TAG design) I don't see any other clear path.  Seems like headphones should be close enough.

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

Hey Opaque, I looked at the suite online and stuff but I will not spend 190$ to evaluate something that has not proven itself in the scientific community. You can say alot about the purpoted benefits of TagSync but to suggest it over other clinically validated models of NEurofeedback therapy for individuals that may actually benefit from it as well as  calling it a cure for pretty much everything sounds like a snake oil pitch to me it may even be downright criminal imo. Douglas Dailey is selling these screens which he spent a lot of time developing along with the QWIZ which bwt is the least validated of all of the biofeedback systems. It obeys no ISO, FDA, CE, IEEE, ROHS or other regulatory standards and as such is pretty much disclaimed from liability on the site itself as being used for clinical purposes. And I quote: 

 

"Pocket Neurobics MAKES NO WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, beyond product defect warranties expressly given in the body of this document. The User is responsible for determining whether this product is fit for a particular purpose.

This product is NOT FOR MEDICAL USE and is solely for PERSONAL USE. "

 

I mean its very easy to sell something at lower cost if you have no quality assurance or anything much to ensure engineering specs are met. That said, ALL OF NEUROFEEDBACK is based on operant conditioning. Neurofeedback works because it can train the brain to specific modalities like SMR, Z-SCORE, Slow Cortical Potentials, ..... Basically anything that you can measure accurately and can target as problematic you can train. This TagSYnc done by someone and posted online and then magically appearing on some user boards like yahoo or longecity seems like a sales pitch. I hope you are not in the pockets of Douglas and instead have valid verified experience towards TAGSync that you took on by your own initiative to help resolve some issues. Whatever the case, my cost to entry is 200$ and i'm not paying it as cheap as it sounds. Why? Because there is nothing scientifically validated to lead me to believe this may be anything more than placebo. If it is more than placebo (and it certainly might be), it isn't more effective by scientific standards than Slow Cortical Potentials, SMR training, Z-Score training, etc...... 

 

All my best to the group and the individuals using TAGSync but anyone looking for an answer to a medical condition for which neurofeedback may be of assisatnce should go and see a licensed NFB practitioner or look at the scientific evidence for protocols to be used for that condition. There are too many good protocols with scientific reviews to just put a blind eye and the trust the experience of OpaqueMind for someone's mental health ... although it may be cheaper!

 

Whatever the case I have good intentions but there are too many red flags. Anyone willing to pass over the TAGSync screens for me to evaluate and report is free to do so. I have two platforms I can use. Other than that, that is my opinion on this matter. 

[Bogumił Hrabal]

@Crowstream

I want to use TAG with peak performance protocols (increase gamma, upper alfa; beta 1 and SMR etc.) and develop individual protocol (statiscics) after achieving peak performance state (piano + math/physics/logic + physical exercises; or after one night of nice deep sleep) using Optima 2 and BioExplorer.
 

Have somebody increased intelligence or verbal intelligence using TAG or other protocols? There are simple studies: http://bernhard-homm...urofeedback.pdf and http://wings-of-chan...king-memory.pdf .

 

TAG mimics (various) advanced meditative states (?). If so, why not mimic brain patterns of x, where x is a person with exeptional g factor, IQ above n while concentrating on particular task (i don't know... Terrence Tao - maths)... or inventing sth? Do you know if there are any protocols for insight (this phenomenon is probably well-examined)? I mean I'm searching protocls for intelligence and insight/creativity.

 

Edited by Bogumił Hrabal, 09 November 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Crowstream]

@ Hza

 

I will do the protocols depending on time, sometimes I have done 2/day but more often I think 1/day. When I do 2 I will try to spread it out and do one earlier and the other later on during the day. I am still experimenting with this to see if I can notice any difference in the training effects, and adjusting.

 

For me Biocybernaut is also the holy grail of neurofeedback   its what got me into this in the first place I think. Besides the stuff on their website they also have a patent that you can find online for their training, it has some more details including the exact frequencies for their filters, and some detailed specifications that I have been using to make my design. I sort of gave up on getting 4 separate speakers though! Right now I am using 4 different instruments that have a pleasant sound that work pretty well together, my friend and I thought out some different midi notes that would work well together so now they all play different notes, creating a nice harmonic sound.

 

I tried out the design for the first time yesterday and it was surprisingly powerful for me, even though I had much worse settings then. I ended up getting really deep into meditation and I used the design for 1,5 hours  . It definitively has some potential I think. If you want you can help me test it out and perhaps give some advice on its improvement  .

 

 

@ Bogumil

 

Sounds interesting, I think TAG Sync can help peak performance so I am interested in hearing your results from this. If you want to map your own brainstate then there are some free programs you can use to collect and analyze EEG data I think, I havent used these so I am not sure if they will be useful for what you intend to do, but here are two I have found that are free (http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/) (http://www.nbtwiki.net/). I have been meaning to learn to use those programs myself but havent had the time to get into it yet  .

 

 

I dont know of anyone who has measurably increased their intelligence using TAG, but you are right, there are many studies showing improvements from neurofeedback so I am sure it is possible.

 

I think it would be interesting to mimic a brain pattern of someone with an exceptional g factor, I havent seen any studies or protocols about this but it sure would be a good idea for a study  .

 

There are many protocols for insight and creativity, for example biocybernaut have done studies (http://www.biocybern...m/publications/) where they have for example measured 50% creativity increases in scientist, they have also shown 11+ average IQ increases from 7 days of training.

 

This is after doing their Alpha training, so it seems that alpha brainwaves are strongly connected to creativity and insight.

 

I think theta and gamma are also important in this. 

 

A protocol you could use for theta is perhaps alpha/theta crossover, where you train to enter a theta state, you can get it for 22$ here (http://www.itallis.c...nm6gfp5blsu9gr3).

 

The theta state can help with creativity I think, there is a lot of research on this type of protocol going back to 1989 when it was first used in a big study.

[Bogumił Hrabal]

I will have Optima, stuff and TAG in one year probaby...

 

I know Budzynski and Tansey developed alpha protocol (peak alpha efficiency) called "brain brightening".

I don't know what is "coupling" in NFB and "crossover". Could somebody explain?

 

I also thought how to use EEG to get some kind of "epileptic" creative states (similar to LSD, Dostoevsky) by will - to enhance creative writing abilities. Maybe increasing amplitude on the right temporal lobe or maybe simple training 7 Hz etc., I don't know I'm neophyte.

 

 

Edited by Bogumił Hrabal, 11 November 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[Crowstream]

@ Bogumil

 

I think coupling refers to cross-frequency coupling, you can read about it in these articles: 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.... brain networks

http://www.ncbi.nlm....le architecture

 

Semantic memory is encoded by the thalamo-cortical system in alpha brainwaves, episodic memory is encoded in the limbic (septo-hippocampal) theta rhythm. In order for your memory systems to work they must interact, so memory can be transferred between different systems, that means different brain rhythms must interact with each other, this is done through cross-frequency coupling. If you record both alpha and theta together and summate their wave-form, sometimes the two will synchronize their activity and you get an "event-related potential", thats when a communication occurs between the two frequencies.

 

Phase-amplitude coupling is an example of cross-frequency coupling. For example I believe working memory is highly dependent on theta-gamma phase-amplitude coupling, the gamma bursts (increases in amplitude) will be encoded into the phase of the theta wave, they have a phase-amplitude coupling. It is sometimes said that working memory can hold 7 +-2 items (known as Millers law), you can test this by doing digit span tests (how many numbers someone can remember). Using the EEG you can predict how large someones digit span is by looking at how many gamma bursts are nested in their theta rhythm, at least according to neuroscientist Jay Gunkelman: https://www.youtube....h?v=M-SYDkVPNGU (go to part 6 - Nester Rhythms if you are only interested in that part of his talk) If theta is slightly slower or gamma slightly faster, you have a larger digit span. For example gamma of 40 and theta of 5 means 40/5 = 8 items encoded in memory. 40/6 means less items recorded, etc.

 

 

I think Crossover refers to the brainstate where theta becomes the dominant rhythm instead of alpha. In most awake adult humans alpha is the dominant rhythm, when theta becomes the dominant rhythm we enter into a "deep state" or "twilight state", where you can experience old memories surfacing, have sudden insights, and visions etc.

 

 

I think you are on to the right idea of the temporal lobes and creativity, you should read the entropic brain article about this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24550805 In that article they propose that the default-mode network (DMN), which is usually the dominant network, and sometimes said to be the source of our egoic consciousness is normally inhibiting the activity of the medial temporal lobes (MTL). Entering into a psychedelic/psychotic/epileptic/creative state usually means the DMN and MTLs become more uncoupled, so the DMN inhibits the MTLs less. If you find that interesting then maybe you can watch this talk: https://www.youtube....h?v=Eid6fiAj8WY It is based on a lot of neuroscience on the role of the temporal lobes in spiritual/psychic/creative experiences. Using signals sourced from specific locations in the brain (like the amygdala or hippocampus) Michael Persinger and others have created a helmet that uses magnets to reinput those signals to the brain, to change the activity patterns in the brain. By doing this they have been able to induce all kinds of interesting experiences in people. Todd Murphy (the guy who is giving the talk) has developed this further and created new helmets that he is selling here: http://www.shaktitechnology.com/

 

The technology actually is not very advanced, so maybe you can even built it yourself   I think its just some magnets sourced out of telephones, or something like that. You would need the correct signals to reinput into the brain of course  .

[Bogumił Hrabal]

I was asking about increased intelligence due tu specific neurofeedback protocol (including TAG) because I'm after 17 sessions of Beta 1 - SMR and this developed some kind of appropriate dignity thus increasing memory and maybe speed of word encoding but not the speed of information processing and problem solving. Do you know what brainwave pattern corresponds with great speed of processing? (It would be worth measuring person with exeptional g.)

[Crowstream]

I was asking about increased intelligence due tu specific neurofeedback protocol (including TAG) because I'm after 17 sessions of Beta 1 - SMR and this developed some kind of appropriate dignity thus increasing memory and maybe speed of word encoding but not the speed of information processing and problem solving. Do you know what brainwave pattern corresponds with great speed of processing? (It would be worth measuring person with exeptional g.)

 

I think the closest thing might be raising peak alpha frequency, it has been found to increase IQ I think and a low peak alpha usually means lower IQ.

 

In the Jay Gunkelman talk he explains that the alpha frequency is basicly your perceptual "snapshots", kind of like when you record a movie you have a certain amount of frames per second that you are recording. Its the same thing in the brain, it is taking perceptual snapshots at the speed of your alpha frequency. If your alpha frequency is faster, it means you are "sampling"  your environment faster through your senses and so that will usually mean increased processing speed, improved memory, etc.

 

Another protocol that might work for this, but is more experimental and as far as I know  has less direct evidence for increasing IQ is uptraining entropy. This is entropy from an information theory standpoint.

In anaesthesia research it has been found that the level of entropy in the brain is directly related to the level of consciousness. More entropy means the brain has access to a greater number of "cortical microstates". A microstate is basicly the smallest, semi-stable state that your brain will produce, this is again very similar to the movie but this is even more important I think since a microstate is a general brainstate and not just how fast you are perceiving things through your senses, as measured by alpha frequency.

 

More microstates in your brain means more freedom, flexibility and more consciousness. It needs to be balanced however, I dont think you can have infinite entropy since that would mean too much randomness, but the brain is tightly regulated and I dont think you can increase entropy past certain levels that would be unsafe. I think TAG Sync is a good combination with Entropy training since TAG Sync works more to increase integration in the brain while increasing entropy will increase differentiation, both of which are a requirement for having high brain complexity.

 

This is mainly theoretical and I am not aware of studies that show direct increases of IQ from doing things like that, it makes sense from an information theory and complexity theory standpoint for me however (although I am not an expert in either).

 

I am actually working on an entropy training protocol, I have modified a protocol that I found into a 4-channel design. I have also created a bioexplorer report so that you can track and keep statistics on your entropy levels over time, I just completed this so I dont have any data yet but hopefully over time I will see if it is possible to increase entropy levels using this design.

 

If you want you could help me out with this  , I could use someone skilled in mathematics to create ways to measure mutual information between different channels, and perhaps some other information theory concepts.

[Bogumił Hrabal]

Yes, speed of processing is not so important as width and depth (thus/and working memory or, if you think of a "genius", "long term working memory" capacity), and perseverance of thinking. Maximalising human potential means therefore (just a peculiar assumption) an ablity to induce due to feedback a state of being in love and deep fascination (maybe just some EEG-based necessary conditions). - There is a nice passage in Plato's Symposium. Any specific brain patterns?

 

Sorry for my dilettantism. By peak alpha frequency you mean increasing amplitude by increasing upper threshold? (I had qEEG and I had too much probably alpha, around 27uV in parieto-central area; now it is 17, 15uV.)

 

I'm not a mathematician. Just after math (and piano, physics, physical ex.) I can read better (increased criticism, creativity, getting relevant information) philosophy and fiction...

 

There is much about increasing musical skills. Are there any protocols/papers to increase drawing/painting abilities?

[Crowstream]

Wow that is a very interesting view of genius, I think you have found some insight there  . I think it is possible to induce this state, for me what has worked best is actually TAG Sync, I just finished a session and I am filled with gratitude for the profound changes it helps me create in my mind.

 

Daniel Siegel defines emotion as shifts in integration, so we experience emotions as positive because we are becoming more integrated. This is what love moves us towards, a feeling of oneness, which is an integration in the mind.

 

When we become more integrated the energy and informational flows in our minds and brains moves towards what Siegel calls "FACES" flow (flexible, adaptive, coherent, energized, and stable) this is a natural movement of complex systems to maximize complexity and to integrate and create harmony.

 

Perhaps genius is the movement of following love towards increasing levels of complexity, allowing the self-organizing nature of the system to unfold  .

 

The specific brain patterns for this I think are mainly theta-alpha-gamma synchrony, which TAG Sync focuses on, but also entropy levels, signifying greater differentiation. When we have this our brain creates the FACES flow  .

 

Peak alpha frequency I think means the highest frequency of the alpha waves, on the EEG you can see the alpha waves occuring between some specific frequencies, this can be different for different people. Some people might have their alpha waves at 7-10hz, or 10-12hz, the 10-12hz person is more likely to have a higher IQ I think, because their alpha is faster. When people grow old their alpha waves usually get slower, and this is part of why you loose cognitive abilities as you age.

An interesting counterfinding is that in Zen meditation practitioners you will also see the alpha waves becoming slower, as a function of increased practice, so people who are very skilled at Zen meditation will tend to have slower alpha frequencies. What that means I dont really know but it is a bit strange, maybe you have to choose between having really quick and sharp cognitive skills or being a zen master? 

 

Too bad you are not a mathematician, I could really use some help with my entropy protocol, its hard! 

 

I havent seen any papers on increasing drawing/painting abilities, but I am thinking maybe train the occipital area since that is the visual processing center of the brain? I dont know really, thats just a hunch, maybe you can build your own protocols for doing that and see what works  .

 

 

 

[Bogumił Hrabal]

"In contrast, Vernon et al. (2003) found that using neurofeedback to train participants to enhance low beta (12–15 Hz) brain activity led to significant improvements in a short-term semantic working memory task. Given the reported associations between theta activity and working memory (see von Stein and Sarnthein 2000) and low beta and attention (see Rossiter and LaVaque 1995), Vernon et al. (2003) were interested in comparing the differential effects of theta and low beta NFT on measures of memory and attention. To do this, they recruited three groups of participants, one trained to enhance theta activity, the second trained to enhance low beta and the third group acting as non-feedback controls. All three groups completed a number of pre- and post-measures of attention and memory. Contrary to expectations, they found that those trained to enhance theta showed no clear shift in their EEG and no change in cognitive performance. However, those trained to enhance low beta showed a significant increase in the level of low beta activity from the beginning to the end of each neurofeedback session (see Figure 10.7). Moreover, only those who trained to enhance their low beta activity showed a significant improvement in the semantic working memory task (see Figure 10.8)".

You mean increasing voltage (not necessary the amplitude) at the 10 - 12 Hz leads to improved IQ? If so, it should be coupled with SMR training. Slower waves are trained (as in the TAG) to increase receptiveness. ["High alpha band (10-12 Hz) power remains the hallmark of good memory performance, despite age level" (Budzynski in article inside Handbook of Neurofeedback".] [Also: "Reduced 40 Hz band power may serve as a marker of aging", and: "Enhancement of high alpha bands, for example, 11 - 13 Hz, from Pz is helpful".]

 

This entropy protocol assumes large working memory capacity I guess.

Edited by Bogumił Hrabal, 15 November 2014 - 01:52 AM.

[Crowstream]

Thats an interesting study, I had not thought much about training beta to be honest, I will have to look into that some more.

 

If the theta group showed no increase in theta from training then I think you should expect no change in attention or memory, it might mean their training protocol was not very good if they were not able to increase theta from their training. If they were able to change theta then I think it would lead to other changes.

 

It would also be interesting to see the effects of training cross-frequency coupling, as this seems to be very important for many brain processes. I guess it is hard to do that kind of research though because its harder to be sure what is causing the results, say if you train both theta and gamma at the same time a change might be because of theta, gamma, or theta and gamma together.

 

You can read more about alpha peak frequency here: http://www.itallis.c...e9b7de73ah8jd80

You can click on design notes for Alpha Peak Frequency and Amplitude for more details on how the design works, I have not used it so I dont know that much about it.

 

 

Why would the entropy protocol assume a large working memory? Do you mean that you could first use a low beta 12-15hz protocol like mentioned in this study to enhance working memory, and then work on other protocols like entropy? 

[umop 3pisdn]

Recently I've had an idea for me of what might be a 'third' protocol (in addition to TAGsync and Entropy), in response to this thread on the dharmaoverground forums:

 

http://www.dharmaove...message/5036272

 

Meditation, TAGsync, Entropy training, etc, do not improve will power or motivation for me. Perhaps it even has a negative effect in some ways, because I'm content to bask in states of abiding, improved awareness, etc.

 

Just as Entropy training seems to track attention very well, (especially for me with an added 2-42Hz wide inhibit bin), and especially within the meditative framework of Mahamudra (with entropy training I found myself intuitively practicing "samatha without an object" before I even knew that was a practice that existed), and just as TAGsync seems to relate to "Awareness of Awareness" again amply accounted for within the context of Mahamudra meditation, the four Brahmaviharas (Loving Friendliness, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity) seem like they would readily track will or intention itself being attitudes wholly dependent on it, and in a way that's wholly self-harmonious or improves one's moral capacity at the same time. The Brahmaviharas are one of those meditation objects, that within certain considerations (say that you're not getting it completely wrong), is impossible to burn yourself with. Pure will or intent as a neutral factor is very easy to burn yourself with, and it may readily introduce emotional dysregulation because it can lead to an attitude where we're trying to strong arm our will or intent, which creates an attitude where we're constantly in conflict with ourselves, which actually makes it harder to get things done, because there is unaddressed internal conflict regarding what we desire to do spilling over and making us more miserable. The Brahmaviharas as an attitude naturally address all forms of conflict, and naturally seem to draw upon the deepest or most genuine form of human intent.

 

So in that view I propose a kind of training, one of the benefits of which would be increasing one's capacity for intent or will that would then be available in all areas of life (getting shit done), but in the vein of practicing the Brahmaviharas and bolstering a kind of wholesome morality as an additional effect or side effect (depending on what your priorities are). An easy way of tracking that would seem to be prefrontal HEG training set to a kind of stable or consistent threshold (intent), and HRV training for maintaining positive or harmonious emotional affect and preventing striving, etc. Just set up two manual thresholds for these values on an 'AND' basis and they'll regulate each other. These two modes of training are supposed to be very synergistic to begin with, and they seem to come together even more harmoniously under the kind of relationship I have presented above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by umop 3pisdn, 17 November 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[hza]

Hey Crowstream, I wonder a lot too about the effects of multiple sessions during the day, timing in between, etc.  I've asked around at the TLC forum a bit about the effect of nfb on the brain in terms of stress, exertion, or relaxation response, ie, does it make you tired when you do nfb or does it actually free up resources, and basically it seems to depend on what kind of training you're doing.  I've had days when I did 4-5 different protocols more or less back-to-back, and days when I just did one or two, and there seems to be no reliable correlation to how I feel afterward.  There are days when I decide to skip altogether because I feel like I might need the rest, and there are days when I can definitely tell I've stressed my brain and need to give it some time to integrate whatever work I've done.  But it's not consistent or predictable.  If I were a little bit smarter, I'd start keeping a journal for observations of aftereffects, but I've been wanting to do that pretty much my entire life for one reason or another but just never had the discipline, so oh well. 

 

I'd be thrilled to help out with a BioCybernautesque design.  I was thinking the other day, if you really wanted to have 4 external speakers with a 2-channel output it wouldn't really be that hard.  One way you could go about it, if the tones are pretty distinct, like say with a difference of 20 Hz or so, is to just run each output channel through a mechanical bypass network like you find in older 2- or 3-way stereo speakers.  Some of them even have a knob to adjust the bypass point.  You could probably pick up the hardware on eBay cheap, or if you're comfortable with electrical components you could probably make your own pretty easily.  Of course, headphones are much easier and probably just as effective for training purposes.  

 

As for the 1.5 hour session on your first trial, I assume you're familiar with Hardt's story about his first foray into Alpha nfb with just a tone or a light for feedback, and going for like a full afternoon because the attendant went out to lunch and forgot he was in there :D  A little Alpha never hurt anybody, right?

 

@Bogumil et al

 

Interesting conversation about intelligence.  I've been meaning to add, I've read there's a factor in the quality/quantity of tissue too, white matter and grey matter.  Obviously brain wave training via nfb isn't going to directly affect that, but it does have some impact on neuroplasticity and it may be synergistic with other activities like physical exercises designed to assist in hemispheric coordination.  I've run across some headlines recently that claim some of those exercise techniques are getting a lot of scrutiny now or maybe even debunked outright, but in general coordination exercises and musical practice can't hurt anything if you're wanting to train cognitive flexibility.  I've seen it claimed for instance that learning to juggle increases white matter (although that sounds kinda bogus); there's also a type of cognitive therapy used mainly in autistic spectrum and developmental disorder cases where they've found training certain physical skills has a direct correlation to cognitive ability, like jumping rope is good for verbal memory, or walking on a balance beam corresponds to reading and spelling, etc (working from memory here).  Anyway the point is training 10-20 minutes per day with exercises that present a challenge in balance or coordination might be of some benefit by itself, and in conjunction with nfb (and now that I think of it, tDCS) might be highly complementary.  

 

@ Hza

 

I will do the protocols depending on time, sometimes I have done 2/day but more often I think 1/day. When I do 2 I will try to spread it out and do one earlier and the other later on during the day. I am still experimenting with this to see if I can notice any difference in the training effects, and adjusting.

 

For me Biocybernaut is also the holy grail of neurofeedback   its what got me into this in the first place I think. Besides the stuff on their website they also have a patent that you can find online for their training, it has some more details including the exact frequencies for their filters, and some detailed specifications that I have been using to make my design. I sort of gave up on getting 4 separate speakers though! Right now I am using 4 different instruments that have a pleasant sound that work pretty well together, my friend and I thought out some different midi notes that would work well together so now they all play different notes, creating a nice harmonic sound.

 

I tried out the design for the first time yesterday and it was surprisingly powerful for me, even though I had much worse settings then. I ended up getting really deep into meditation and I used the design for 1,5 hours  . It definitively has some potential I think. If you want you can help me test it out and perhaps give some advice on its improvement   .
 

[hza]

Hey umop, so when you train entropy, how do you go about it?  Is it a certain type of awareness meditation or do you have an actual EEG design you're using?  

 

I always do HRV breathing when I do HEG these days, and it occurs to me lately that I should probably be doing it during EEG training too--I don't think there's any sitting practice that it wouldn't enhance, although the mental task of breath counting might interfere with advanced meditative practices.  After working with it for more than a year now, though, I do occasionally find myself slipping into HRV breathing without consciously counting the breaths, so I suspect the response can be trained to be something close to fully automatic.  

 

Recently I've had an idea for me of what might be a 'third' protocol (in addition to TAGsync and Entropy), in response to this thread on the dharmaoverground forums:

 

http://www.dharmaove...message/5036272

 

Meditation, TAGsync, Entropy training, etc, do not improve will power or motivation for me. Perhaps it even has a negative effect in some ways, because I'm content to bask in states of abiding, improved awareness, etc.

 

Just as Entropy training seems to track attention very well, (especially for me with an added 2-42Hz wide inhibit bin), and especially within the meditative framework of Mahamudra (with entropy training I found myself intuitively practicing "samatha without an object" before I even knew that was a practice that existed), and just as TAGsync seems to relate to "Awareness of Awareness" again amply accounted for within the context of Mahamudra meditation, the four Brahmaviharas (Loving Friendliness, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity) seem like they would readily track will or intention itself being attitudes wholly dependent on it, and in a way that's wholly self-harmonious or improves one's moral capacity at the same time. The Brahmaviharas are one of those meditation objects, that within certain considerations (say that you're not getting it completely wrong), is impossible to burn yourself with. Pure will or intent as a neutral factor is very easy to burn yourself with, and it may readily introduce emotional dysregulation because it can lead to an attitude where we're trying to strong arm our will or intent, which creates an attitude where we're constantly in conflict with ourselves, which actually makes it harder to get things done, because there is unaddressed internal conflict regarding what we desire to do spilling over and making us more miserable. The Brahmaviharas as an attitude naturally address all forms of conflict, and naturally seem to draw upon the deepest or most genuine form of human intent.

 

So in that view I propose a kind of training, one of the benefits of which would be increasing one's capacity for intent or will that would then be available in all areas of life (getting shit done), but in the vein of practicing the Brahmaviharas and bolstering a kind of wholesome morality as an additional effect or side effect (depending on what your priorities are). An easy way of tracking that would seem to be prefrontal HEG training set to a kind of stable or consistent threshold (intent), and HRV training for maintaining positive or harmonious emotional affect and preventing striving, etc. Just set up two manual thresholds for these values on an 'AND' basis and they'll regulate each other. These two modes of training are supposed to be very synergistic to begin with, and they seem to come together even more harmoniously under the kind of relationship I have presented above.