707 replies to this topic

[Diego55]

also, iam interested in trying neuroptimal system (mostly becasue I am lay person in the field of EEG). I suffering from severe social anxiety, GAD, depression and PTSD... someone said the neuroptimal didnt work for him, other said it worked only a little and for some others it worked amazing... It is quite expensive and for a one month rent i will have to pay around 700 dollars since i do not have opportunity to try it first with some provider (there are not any in my country, so i need to rent it first, if i want to try it). Do you think i could profit from one month rent = approx.30 sessions of neuroptimal ?

[VastEmptiness]

would like to know, for someone who just started with EEG and bioexplorer HASP, are there any manuals, video tutorials (preferably for free) ? I recently bought HEG nir through brain-trainer.com, but i also managed to get 2 channels pendant EEG with bioexplorer and other equipment... I got it as a rent, but a guy who rented it to me has no time to introduce me to it. I am looking for something like step by step guide.

HEG should be pretty straightforward. avoid overtraining. i can recommend HEG Life game from braintrainer and HEG in general. seems to have a huge effect on fatigue and concentration or me.

for EEG: what designs are you using? most of the braintrainer ones are self-explanatory when you read the attached overview-pdf. think all of them have a 2 channel design as well. braintrainer iself has a very pragmatical FAQ and youtube channel for their stuff (which includes bioexplorer).

[VastEmptiness]

also, iam interested in trying neuroptimal system (mostly becasue I am lay person in the field of EEG). I suffering from severe social anxiety, GAD, depression and PTSD... someone said the neuroptimal didnt work for him, other said it worked only a little and for some others it worked amazing... It is quite expensive and for a one month rent i will have to pay around 700 dollars since i do not have opportunity to try it first with some provider (there are not any in my country, so i need to rent it first, if i want to try it). Do you think i could profit from one month rent = approx.30 sessions of neuroptimal ?

yes i think it would profit you. however, i feel like the investment in the rental system is the last option. having a trainer asses and train with you should be the choice if youre lacking time or willingness to learn NFB (thinking of for example older women in my family). the much more cost efficient alternative would be to get an assesment and train yourself according to the plan how many times you like or need. since youre descriving heavy symptoms thatdbe my recommendation at this points. its always good value, rent or buy, to share the gear with somebody. you not gonna use it more than a few hours a week anyway. can really recommend talkinh to Peter of brain-trainer.com about your symptoms.

meditation (eeg-assisted or regular) proof to be very helpful generally with the symptoms described. also you might wanna look into the Emwave2 hrv-training. its 200$ and should be standard for downtraining stress-responses in your body (which correlate strongly to said symptoms).

[Diego55]

would like to know, for someone who just started with EEG and bioexplorer HASP, are there any manuals, video tutorials (preferably for free) ? I recently bought HEG nir through brain-trainer.com, but i also managed to get 2 channels pendant EEG with bioexplorer and other equipment... I got it as a rent, but a guy who rented it to me has no time to introduce me to it. I am looking for something like step by step guide.
[/quote]

Heg seems very user friendly. I wanted to order life game too, but with life game i would need bioexplorer , which i do not have for now.

I rented EEG from a friend, so brain-trainer probably wont help me with this issue ... I want to try TAG protocol, which i will order when I get my hands on eeg. I checked BT site and there are some videos tutorials but it costs a lot of money for me at this point.

Do you have any video tutorials (or some other materials, mostly as bioexplorer guide) which y would like to share for some charge ?

[VastEmptiness]

i'm getting confused now. youre having a bioexplorer (=hasp) but not bioexplorer? you can download that and just use the hasp to unlock. i dont have any video tutorials that i could share,however there should be some for HEG on the brain-trainer channel (free). its a very straightforward proccess and even easier with the life game. for tag sync you gonna need bioexplorer and a 2 channel eeg. if you need any help with either, i could gladly assist you on skype/teamviewer, but youll have to wait for me to come home from my travels in somewhat less than 2 weeks.

let me know your exact setup (type of electrodes, software, etc.) and what you wanna train, i might be able to give you some instructions here too.

[Diego55]

I wrote it a bit confusedly. I got my HEG nir from BT, but EEG and BIoexplorer (i think it will be BIoexplorer hasp) will get from my friend, whom i will pay monthly installments for his 2 channel eeg. When i get the bioexplorer i will maybe order the Life game from BT sites.

Thank you for your assistance, I appreciate it, when i receive my package and I wiil get into it a bit, i will have some questions for sure.



His equipment is: 2 channels wireless EEG (pendant EEG + soft Bioexplorer,Brainbay) and it should look exactly like at this photo:

http://www.brainstat...eeg-pendant.jpg



I want train mainly with TAGsync protocol, which i order from DD site.

As for HEG, can you advice me some "tips" how to get moving videos forward ? How can you concentrate only on videos, so what you see on screen?

[VastEmptiness]

This thread got really silent - would be highly interested in an update about your experiences. I've been conversing with Crowstream and his experiences after roughly 100 sessions of TAGsync seem to reinforce what has been written here earlier by the others. My own experience is only two prolonged sessions (like 1,5 hours each) so far where I trained Alpha-Theta-Delta-Gamma-Synchrony across the Midline on 4 Channels. Both of those have been really profound experiences, building up on and deepening my experience with Meditation. Specifically the Phase-Reset-Reward appears to correlate exactly to the moment of "Letting go" of whatever is the content of experience in that moment, leaving me in the calm realms of Emptiness. While I don't know yet If i will be able to reproduce the experiences - If the correlation keeps on then I found the absolutely most-helpful tool for improving my meditative skills in TAGsync, because the reward did put me in the exact (no-)place I'm looking for in the practice of meditation.

While reading the excellent book "Welten ohne Grund" by a german systems theory professor / sociologist Werner Vogd on his interpretation of Buddhism (which only exists in German at this point), I noticed some really interesting sources he uses and would like to know If some of you have access to them or even already read them. They seem to be very close to what has been discussed here. Also I can recommend looking into the works of Varela&Maturana, who influenced the field of neurobiology and with that systems theory strongly. However, what I didn't know is that they both seem to have been practicing buddhists.

 

 

Sharp, P. (2011): Buddhist Enlightenment and the Destruction of Attractor Networks. A neuroscientific Speculation on the Buddhist Path from Everyday Consciousness to Buddha-Awakening. Journal of Consciousness Studies 18 (3-4): 137-169

 

Brown, D. et al (1983): Phenomenological differences among self hypnosis, mindfulness meditation and imaging. Imagination, Cognition and Personality 2 (4): 291-309

 

Brown, D. (1977): A Model of Levels of Concentrative Meditation. The International Journal of Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis XXV (4): 236-273

 

Zahavi, D. (2008): Subjectivity and Selfhood. Investigating the First-Person Perspective. Cambridge MA (MIT).

 

Siderits, M., E. Thomspon a. D. Zahavi (2011): Self, No Self? Perspectives from Analytical, Phenomenological and Indian Traditions. Oxford (Oxford University)

 

Patricia E. Sharp Buddhist Enlightenmentand the Destruction of Attractor Networks 

Neuroscientific Speculation on the Buddhist Path from Everyday Consciousness to Buddha-Awakening 

Abstract: Buddhist philosophy asserts that human suffering is caused by ignorance regarding the true nature of reality. According to this, perceptions and thoughts are largely fabrications of our own minds, based on conditioned tendencies which often involve problematic fears, aversions, compulsions, etc. In Buddhist psychology, these tendencies reside in a portion of mind known as Store consciousness. Here, I suggest a correspondence between this Buddhist Store consciousness and the neuroscientific idea of stored (Hebbian) synaptic weights. These weights are strong synaptic connections built in through experience. Buddhist philosophy claims that humans can find relief from suffering through a process in which the Store consciousness is transformed. Here, I argue that this Buddhist ‘transformation at the base’ corresponds to a loosening of the learned synaptic connections. I will argue that Buddhist meditation practices create conditions in the brain which are optimal for diminishing the strength of our conditioned perceptual and behavioural tendencies.

Correspondence: Patricia E. Sharp, JP Scott Center for Mind, Brain and Behavior, Department of Psychology, Bowling Green State University, Bowling Green, Ohio 43403 Email: psharp@bgsu.edu

 

 

Edited by VastEmptiness, 02 April 2015 - 12:19 AM.

[umop 3pisdn]

I guess I'm not sure how to report my experiences. I was one of the first that discovered this modality on these forums, and while my frequency of training has varied a lot, as well as my approach to training in general, on a larger scale it has just become a part of my lifestyle and meditation practice. My initial enthusiasm has been replaced by consistency and a more substantial sense of commitment, if not to the technology or particular mode of training itself, then to the phenomenological processes that I've approached through using it.

 

I've decided that TAGsync is a really effective way of learning Trekcho, or at least something equivalent to it. I haven't received transmission from a teacher in the Dzogchen tradition, so I can't say with utter confidence, but I'm pretty certain that what I'm doing is essentially the same thing. Before I'd call the sort of practice that it facilitates "awareness of awareness", but that's actually not very descriptive and might implicitly create the impression that awareness is somehow a 'thing'. How I'd describe it now is more seeing the quality of 'emptiness' (or the three marks of existence) as awareness itself. The more frequent updating of one's internal state that Douglas Dailey attributes to increased alpha, theta, gamma, and phase resets seems to be associated with an increased noticing capacity (which I suppose is sampajanna in the Pali canon), this faculty can become robust enough that you notice extremely fine or fast variations in perception or experience itself, which destroys the perception of solidity or that things are self-existent (impermanence, no self). I think this is probably the best application for TAGsync in a training paradigm, because to notice impermanence one's noticing ability has to be quite robust, there's probably nothing that exists to us that outpaces this perception, so it's sort of taking training to the farthest possible conclusion. It helps that that's also the very essence of Vipassana, if that's the sort of thing you're into.

Edited by umop 3pisdn, 02 April 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Crowstream]

@VE

Interesting articles , I found some links where you can download them:

 

A model for the levels of concentrative meditation - http://gen.lib.rus.e...ive meditation.

 

Subjectivity and Selfhood: Investigating the First-Person Perspective. - http://gen.lib.rus.e...=&p=&redirect=1

 

Buddhist Enlightenment and the Destruction of Attractor Networks: A Neuroscientific Speculation on the Buddhist Path from Everyday Consciousness to Buddha-Awakening - 

 http://www.researchgate.net.sci-hub.org/profile/Patricia_Sharp/publication/259943109_Buddhist_Enlightenment_and_the_Destruction_of_Attractor_Networks_A_Neuroscientific_Speculation_on_the_Buddhist_Path_from_Everyday_Consciousness_to_Buddha-Awakening/links/0046352f3a5b581f56000000.pdf

 

Phenomenological differences among self hypnosis, mindfulness meditation, and imaging - http://www.drjerryep...Differences.pdf

 

Self, No Self? Perspectives from Analytical, Phenomenological and Indian Traditions - http://gen.lib.rus.e...dian Traditions

 

 

The model for concentrative meditation article seems quite thorough (39 pages), based on science as well as the mahamudra tradition of tibetan buddhism. I have heard the mahamudra described as the "mystical" branch of the tibetan buddhist schools, they are very much focused on meditation I think (other schools might be more politically or scholarly oriented etc)

 

The Buddhist Enlightenment article looks extremely interesting for our purposes here, it is integrating brain science and buddhism, I see it mentions neural synchrony for example in relation to meditation, for example one section of the article is dedicated to discussing: "The synchronous theta/alpha and gamma EEG activity during meditation is likely induced by subcortical cholinergic neuron activity". Might open up for new ways to enhance training with nootropics, maybe modulating the cholinergic activity could effect the meditation.

 

Havent looked into the other articles but they look interesting too .

 

@umop

 

This is exactly what I have experienced too, in my deepest sessions I felt like I got to the point of seeing emptiness as awareness. I dont have any tibetan buddhist teachers to guide me so who knows if that is what I was experiencing, but to the best of my ability I think it is the best description I can think of. Sorry to everyone who is not into tibetan buddhism and thinks this sounds extremely esoteric  , but seriously though it is extremely hard to write about those experiences without using language like that. I can say that reaching those deep levels of consciousness has had a profound psychological effect, it felt like I "reset" my self-perception. It made me feel incredibly peaceful and free, my inner dialogue has quieted down and its like I am living in a state of presence without much thought, no worries really and I feel very content. I can still think and do stuff if I want to but its like I dont waste any energy on thinking when I dont need to and its like my brain is more balanced and just dealing with the present moment.

[VastEmptiness]

So I conclude everybody starts TAGsync really motivated and ends up not posting anymore after realising the lack of substance in all form, including Longecity and rather hangs out in pure awareness? Anyway, thanks for the replies. And thanks for looking up the articles. Was very tired already when I posted this.

 

 

Also I have a technical question: Which modalities are you guys training mainly at the moment? Which sites and why? Just Theta/Alpha synchrony or do you combine more frequencies to rewards? And if so, why? Also what do you up-train other than the synchrony; Just Alpha or do you reward increases in Theta and Gamma too? Have some more questions wandering my mind:

A) If I understand the phase reset design correctly what we are rewarding is an increase in amplitude but only if it occurs in two channels at the same time, size dependent on our thresholds. I was thinking of adding a reward of increasing Gamma and when Gamma increases in all four channels at the same time. I seem to have both, low Gamma levels and critically low Gamma coherence in my brain-trainer assessment. What do you think? This shouldn't interfere with the meditation practice, no?

 

B) Whats the difference between synchrony/coherence/phase coupling?

 

C) Also In means of increasing my rather slow Alpha peak (10-12hz peaks around 9, Peter told me to increase), I'd like to know If anybody knows a source that shows Alpha speeds in long term meditators during practice and/or rest.

[Bobity]

Just ordered TAGsync - directly as a result of post here that inspired me to do this.  I may be back with newbie questions when it arrives.  Looking forwards to the journey.  

[Crowstream]

So I conclude everybody starts TAGsync really motivated and ends up not posting anymore after realising the lack of substance in all form, including Longecity and rather hangs out in pure awareness? Anyway, thanks for the replies. And thanks for looking up the articles. Was very tired already when I posted this.

 

 

Also I have a technical question: Which modalities are you guys training mainly at the moment? Which sites and why? Just Theta/Alpha synchrony or do you combine more frequencies to rewards? And if so, why? Also what do you up-train other than the synchrony; Just Alpha or do you reward increases in Theta and Gamma too? Have some more questions wandering my mind:

A) If I understand the phase reset design correctly what we are rewarding is an increase in amplitude but only if it occurs in two channels at the same time, size dependent on our thresholds. I was thinking of adding a reward of increasing Gamma and when Gamma increases in all four channels at the same time. I seem to have both, low Gamma levels and critically low Gamma coherence in my brain-trainer assessment. What do you think? This shouldn't interfere with the meditation practice, no?

 

B) Whats the difference between synchrony/coherence/phase coupling?

 

C) Also In means of increasing my rather slow Alpha peak (10-12hz peaks around 9, Peter told me to increase), I'd like to know If anybody knows a source that shows Alpha speeds in long term meditators during practice and/or rest.

 

Right now I am only training TAG Sync on the frontal lobes (Fp1,Fp2,F3,F4) since I have already done so much midline training. I feel like frontal lobe training has some unique effects so I can recommend it. Only doing theta/alpha at the moment but will probably start using other frequencies more later on. I find that I keep switching methods, I guess its like an ongoing experiment to figure out the effects of different ways of training. It is rewarding increases in both alpha and theta.

 

A) Doesnt have to occur in both channels, but most likely it will, if that makes sense, like say for example the amplitude in one channel goes somewhere between 10 and 50 microvolts, if you combine this signal with a source from another electrode that also goes between 10 and 50 microvolts then together they will go between 20 and 100 microvolts, when you reward the top 10% the reward will signal when the amplitude in this channel is 90 microvolts or more, and this will occur when the amplitude is high in both individual channels. I guess amplitudes can be a bit more unpredictable though so maybe it is possible to get a huge amplitude increase in just one channel, triggering the reward, I think that would be uncommon though. The amplitudes will usually cycle in sort of predictable ways.

 

I would say go for it on the gamma reward, training gamma can be very useful I think. It is a lot harder to influence though than say alpha, I find alpha is the easiest frequency to train and influence.

 

B) For synchrony, check out the clocks here: http://www.scholarpe...ticle/Synchrony

I think coherence is a measurement of synchrony between oscillators over time, its best seen directly in the brain trainer coherence designs for example, there you can see a direct measurement of the "phase angle" relationship between electrodes in real time. Like in the example of those clocks for example when they are perfectly in synchrony I think their phase angle is 0 degrees, when they are anti-phase synchronized I think the phase angle might be 180 degrees. Coherence measures these phase angles over time, I think it is the average time when the two channels are very close to each other in phase, like a range of maybe -20 to 20 degrees synchronized or something like that. If you have high coherence it means that the channels are phase synchronized with each other more often (their phase angles are close to 0 a lot of the time). That in turn means that the signals are correlated with each other in time.

 

C) I found an interesting article for this: http://www.sciencedi...165168405002100

Basicly they are proposing that standing waves in the brain can help create zero-phase lag synchronization (basicly instant synchronization without any transmission time) and that the alpha frequencies are particularly suited for this because their frequency range resonates with the physical structure of the human skull, if this is true then people will have different alpha peaks depending on the size of their skull and brain, different frequencies may be more optimal for a given brain and skull size so if this is true then it might not be a good idea to try to decrease or increase the alpha peak.

 

It is still a bit of a speculative article and I dont think there is a concensus that standing waves are in the brain like this, it is interesting though.

 

I remember reading several different articles about how alpha frequency slows down for meditators but I have a hard time finding any of them right now. I think this article was one of the first to report such an effect, its a classic: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6013341 It is a very old study so I am not sure if you can download it or not. I guess I can keep my eyes open for newer articles  .

[Crowstream]

I managed to find an article: Changes in EEG and autonomic nervous activity during meditation and their association with personality traits - http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15649551

 

A study of zen meditators, using EEG, HRV and personality tests. They find some interesting correlations, this is what they say about Alpha, novelty seeking, dopamine, internal and external attention:

 

"Successful meditative experience appears to be mediated by a switching-off mechanism of external attention, as indicated by slower alpha synchronization over the frontal cortical region (Aftanas and Golocheikine, 2001). In this study, the percent change in the slow alpha power in the frontal area was negatively correlated with that in nuLF as well as LF/ HF (as indices of sympathetic tone) (Table 2). Therefore, internalized attention enhanced by meditation (characterized by the activation of the slow alpha power in the frontal area) has an inhibitory effect on sympathetic activity. Concerning EEG and personality traits, there was a positive correlation between the percent change in the slow alpha power predominantly in the frontal area and the NS score (Table 3). As for the association between HRV and personality traits, there was a negative correlation between the percent change in nuLF as well as LF/HF as indices of sympathetic tone and the NS score (Table 3). NS is defined as the tendency to respond to novel stimuli leading to the pursuit of rewards and escape from punishment and it is theoretically associated with dopaminergic activity (Cloninger, 1987; Herbst et al., 2000; Suhara et al., 2001; Yasuno et al., 2001). The results in this study are supported by enhanced dopaminergic activity during meditation (Kjaer et al., 2002). In addition, an increase in slow alpha power after administration of dopamine-releasing drugs (Ferger et al., 1996; Stahl et al., 1997) and inhibitory effects of dopamine agonists on sympathetic activity (using HRVas an index) (Franchi et al., 2001; Schobel et al., 1995) have been reported. Our results, together with these findings, suggest that internalized attention enhanced by meditation activates slow alpha power in the frontal area and inhibits sympathetic activity, and the degree of these effects is associated with the degree of NS (which, as noted, has been suggested to be associated with dopaminergic activity). Here, NS and its self-evident outer directed attention does not seem to fit with our interpretation of the alpha effect and correlate as exemplifying inner directed attention. A previous study showed that external attention increases first in meditation and shifts to inner directed attention with advancement to successful meditation (Aftanas and Golocheikine, 2001). This allows the paradoxical interpretation of the results of this study that the high external attention level characterized by the personality trait of NS is associated with high internal attention."

 

I think this points to slow alpha being very useful for meditation, I dont think having high activity in slow alpha must be a bad thing, it seems to correlate well with skill in meditation actually so I am not so concerned about having high slow alpha levels. I guess it could still be a problem though in some cases so could be interesting to train to see what kind of effects one could get.

 

[Crowstream]

Found another article: Human anterior and frontal midline theta and lower alpha reflect emotionally positive state and internalized attention: high-resolution EEG investigation of meditation http://www.ncbi.nlm....ocheikine, 2001

 

They use two groups, short-term meditators - STM (less than 1/2 year of practice) and long-term meditators - LTM (3-7 years of practice).

 

They measured each participants individual alpha frequency, which I think relies on measuring the alpha peak frequency and calculating the individual alpha frequency from that, interestingly what they found was that IAF was significantly lower for LTM (M = 9.42 Hz) than for STM (M = 10.04 Hz) (P < 0.005).

So the long-term meditators have much slower alpha frequencies (more than 0.5hz difference). I think that might imply that there is something beneficial to having slower alpha frequencies since it seems to be a general pattern related to meditation experience.

 

They compared STM and LTM spectral power changes (change in amplitudes) between an eyes closed and meditation condition. They found LTM significantly increased power in the whole brain in the 3.77-5.65 Hz range while STM did not. LTM also significantly increased 5.65-7.54 Hz power in most of the brain while STM did not. LTM also increased 7.54-9.42 Hz power in anterior temporal and frontal regions. Higher alpha frequencies were "silent" during meditation for both groups.

 

LTM had increased theta synchronization between prefrontal and posterior association cortex, centered in the left prefrontal region.

 

The intensity of blissful experience positively correlated with theta power in anterior frontal and frontal midline leads.

 

Heres what the article says about alpha frequencies: "As it was shown in a variety of experimental paradigms, desynchronization in the lower and medium alpha bands is associated with processes of external attention such as alertness/vigilance (lowest alpha) and expectancy (medium alpha) whereas desynchronized upper alpha reflects enhanced cognitive processing. One may assume that successful meditative experience of LTM is mediated by switching off mechanisms of external attention as indexed by alpha-1 (5.65-7.54 Hz) and alpha-2 (7.54-9.42 Hz) synchronization over anterior cortical regions."

 

Then they speculate that positive emotional experience requires connection (synchrony/coherence) between prefrontal and posterior association cortex regions. It is interesting that this is trained in TAG Sync by training theta synchrony at Fz-Pz so maybe that is why using TAG Sync can lead to blissful experiences  .

 

 

 

 

[BrainBright]

Crowstream: That's an interesting find on those papers, but I'm curious how does it relate to the many other studies that relate high individual alpha peak frequency to a good cognitive performance across several domains. 

 

For example:

 

Increasing Individual Upper Alpha Power by Neurofeedback Improves Cognitive Performance in Human Subjects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.... Human Subjects

 

Individual alpha peak frequency is related to latent factors of general cognitive abilities

http://www.ncbi.nlm....itive abilities

 

Neurofeedback training of the upper alpha frequency band in EEG improves cognitive performance

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20850552

 

Among others. 

 

One of the most common NF trainings I do with clients is to improve alpha peak frequency. This usually has a dramatic "brain brightening" effect as described in Evans Handbooks of Neurofeedback. Especially on older people (but not only), the results are very good. Dr. Swingle recommends 4 sessions, 4 times a year of increasing APF as a standard protocol for keeping the brain sharp as you age.  

 

I'm also a long term meditator (5 years daily meditation) and I also had a < 9.5 alpha peak frequency myself, and one of the NF trainings that gave me the best results in term of cognitive ability was also the increase of this APF (now it's around 9.8, but still growing!).

 

Maybe good for meditation is not exactly good for cognitive performance overall  

 

Would love to know more thoughts about this. 

[Crowstream]

@BrainBright

 

I think the research is contradictory, I cant really make sense out of it. I guess the brain is just very complicated and its hard to have any hard rules on what is good or bad. The research showing increased cognitive performance from a higher alpha peak frequency is interesting, for a long time I thought I should uptrain my alpha peak because of that, but the meditation research made me hesitate about it since I did not want to reverse any of my gains in meditation.

 

I feel like I have good cognitive performance right now, even though my alpha peak frequency is a bit low so it is not really a problem, it would of course be interesting to train up the alpha peak to see if I could get even better performance  . I wonder how it would effect my meditation, to be honest I am more interested in good meditation right now and not optimal cognitive performance. Who knows though, maybe it is not a tradeoff and you can have both, I have no idea really.

 

Perhaps you are training different kinds of abilities, I feel like meditation is not really accessing the problem solving rational way of thinking, but rather a deeper and more intuitive kind of understanding and way of perceiving reality. It might be the case that a more intuitive mind will not do as well on cognitive performance tests, which may favor a problem solving kind of mind. Many intellectual breakthroughs however (maybe all?  ) come from this deeper, creative and more intuitive mind but this kind of ability is much harder to test in cognitive performance tests. I think there are many creative intellectuals who might not have the "fast and sharp" kind of mind but can still solve problems in their own time, and perhaps come up with more creative answers.

 

I dont have any personal experience of this however since I have not tried up or downtraining my alpha peak, just reasoning from the studies I have found so far. What is your experience of raising the APF except for the effect on cognitive ability? Did it change your perception in any other way?

 

I found this quote in Douglas Dailey QEEG seminar notes quite interesting, from this study apparently (have not read yet): http://www.ncbi.nlm....lt mode network

 

”… specific RSNs are organized by long-range synchronization at least in the alpha frequency band.

Global field synchronization of Lo Alpha (8-10) represents DAN (dorsal attention network, RSN5).

GFS of Hi Alpha (10-12) represents DMN (RSN1), especially between anterior and posterior cingulated."

 

This seems to indicate that we should be more specific than saying simply "alpha" since different alpha frequencies seem to be related to different networks! I think in one of those meditation studies they speculated that the increased low alpha power indicated that the experienced meditators had increased internalized attention, perhaps that is related to the dorsal attention network.

 

Increased alpha peak frequency should probably mean higher power in the 10-12 range which seems to be the default mode network, I dont know what that means really, does a synchronization at 10-12 mean the DMN is more or less active?

 

Maybe there is some information about that in the article, I will have to read it and see  .

[BrainBright]

 

I feel like I have good cognitive performance right now, even though my alpha peak frequency is a bit low so it is not really a problem, it would of course be interesting to train up the alpha peak to see if I could get even better performance  . I wonder how it would effect my meditation, to be honest I am more interested in good meditation right now and not optimal cognitive performance. Who knows though, maybe it is not a tradeoff and you can have both, I have no idea really.

 

With NF is all about your personal goals. It's certainly good to have a tool that can help with cognitive performance, meditation, flow states, trauma, attention issues and so on!

 

 

Perhaps you are training different kinds of abilities, I feel like meditation is not really accessing the problem solving rational way of thinking, but rather a deeper and more intuitive kind of understanding and way of perceiving reality. It might be the case that a more intuitive mind will not do as well on cognitive performance tests, which may favor a problem solving kind of mind. Many intellectual breakthroughs however (maybe all?    ) come from this deeper, creative and more intuitive mind but this kind of ability is much harder to test in cognitive performance tests. I think there are many creative intellectuals who might not have the "fast and sharp" kind of mind but can still solve problems in their own time, and perhaps come up with more creative answers.

 

 

True! I also think this is a very insightful way of looking at it. 

 

The worst brain assessment I've ever saw is from one of the most successful persons I know. This guy has a strong ADHD, (very) low alpha peak frequency (almost like an dementia patient!), low alpha sync, low gamma, you name it... yet, he's very successful in his field. He was mediocre student at school, hates everything that requires him to sit still on a desk, so he found ways to avoid those things and excel in what he is truly good. He's also very fast and sharp in handling others and often sees the issues when others are still miles away.

So yes, all the bad "brain hardware" can be often overrun by a good "brain software".  

 

 

 

 

 

I dont have any personal experience of this however since I have not tried up or downtraining my alpha peak, just reasoning from the studies I have found so far. What is your experience of raising the APF except for the effect on cognitive ability? Did it change your perception in any other way?

 

Definitely so, and it sure makes sense considering your comments of a lower APF meaning a more internal awareness. What you get from uptraining APF is often a more external awareness. You're much more present in the world, everything just seems "brighter". You start to notice much more details and colors around you as well as a heightened EXTERNAL attention.

 

So I guess the research isn't contradictory after all

 

Here's an interesting article that discusses how iAPF increases after exercise:

http://www.hindawi.c...np/2015/717312/

 

They say:

"It is concluded that the iAPF is increased following intense exercise, indicating a higher level of arousal and preparedness for external input."

 

With that said, I wouldn't recommend downtraining APF directly for a more internal awareness. Doing it without the structure of a meditation practice can lead you toward getting lost in your own mind much more easily. 

 

 

 

 

I found this quote in Douglas Dailey QEEG seminar notes quite interesting, from this study apparently (have not read yet): http://www.ncbi.nlm....lt mode network

 

”… specific RSNs are organized by long-range synchronization at least in the alpha frequency band.

Global field synchronization of Lo Alpha (8-10) represents DAN (dorsal attention network, RSN5).

GFS of Hi Alpha (10-12) represents DMN (RSN1), especially between anterior and posterior cingulated."

 

This seems to indicate that we should be more specific than saying simply "alpha" since different alpha frequencies seem to be related to different networks! I think in one of those meditation studies they speculated that the increased low alpha power indicated that the experienced meditators had increased internalized attention, perhaps that is related to the dorsal attention network.

 

Increased alpha peak frequency should probably mean higher power in the 10-12 range which seems to be the default mode network, I dont know what that means really, does a synchronization at 10-12 mean the DMN is more or less active?

 

 

 

I have an article on my reading list that discusses this question, you may want to read it:

http://www.jneurosci...2/41/14305.full

[Alin Samson]

I am planning to buy a TAGsync bundle as soon as Douglas will have again in stock the Q wizz.In theory and also in studies the results seems to be quite outstanding.Since I am confronting myself with ADHD and anxiety,I would like to know your personal opinions about treating these conditions with TAGsync.Eventhough I am capable to things under a certain control with meditation and other more or less spiritual practices,I am aware that is still room for improvment.For me personally is quite a big investment,I am pretty sure that I will have to ask my dog to share his meals with me for the next months just to cover the whole in my budget.I know that it is not a universal panaceum but any input on this matter witll be greatly appreciated.Thanks guys!!!

[VastEmptiness]

I am planning to buy a TAGsync bundle as soon as Douglas will have again in stock the Q wizz.In theory and also in studies the results seems to be quite outstanding.Since I am confronting myself with ADHD and anxiety,I would like to know your personal opinions about treating these conditions with TAGsync.Eventhough I am capable to things under a certain control with meditation and other more or less spiritual practices,I am aware that is still room for improvment.For me personally is quite a big investment,I am pretty sure that I will have to ask my dog to share his meals with me for the next months just to cover the whole in my budget.I know that it is not a universal panaceum but any input on this matter witll be greatly appreciated.Thanks guys!!!

getting into NFB is a big short term investment that will turn into a very good deal over the long run. self-therapy for the central nervous system (the main player in health) for the rest of your life at zero-cost. i feel so blessed getting into that at a young age. it's so weird after years of trying just to have normal brain-function, i'm now working on optimizing the shit out of my cognition, way above average.

i would recommend to additional things after experiencing a great relief of said symptoms:

- the nIr-HEG headband and life game (around 500$), which trains bloodflow to the prefortal cortex, which is used in ADHD treatment. i'll go with the same peter told me: "i would recommend this to everybody, but with your symptoms, it would be really stupid not to train HEG."

- a QEEG assessment done by brain-trainer.com and purchase their protocols (150$+200$), which will show accurately the patterns behind your symptoms and offer a training plan specifically for said symptoms and other areas that can use support in your brain. i liked the idea of it, the more i understand how the assessment works, i'm absolutely impressed by how integrative they work and i'll be using the same assessment in the future with clients. a nice bonus is that it shows which sites will profit the most of tag-sync training.

 

TAGsync itself is what i feel like both excellent meditation training and a general healing modality (what it does in short/simplistic, is connecting various existing neuronal patterns together, giving them a good option to change for the better. usually when you experience a chronic symptom, your brain is stuck into doing the same thing over and over, which you break up AFAIK with TAGsync). since your brain will autopoietically reorganize (out of more possible neuronal pathways, due to more connectivity), it should find a better pattern by his own. however, this might be a longer process. given that you spend the time in a meditative (calmed) state i would figure that it will help directly with the anxiety as you implicitly downtraining fast beta-waves. after some time there might be the experience of the anxiety coming but you'll be feeling the distance of an observer from it (like in meditation), which diminishes its impact greatly. happened to me pretty quickly as i was building on earlier meditative experiences. for the ADHS it kind of depends on whats the reason. meditation might not be the number one choice here. theres other modalities in the brain-trainer program that will help here quicker (like say beta-training/SMR - standard option for ADHS for a long time). however, i guess, since you're training the ability to learn new things all over the brain with tagsync, i think there's a good chance for a relief of any symptom caused by the brain really due to reorganization of its activity patterns. also it might be a question of what you during the training. you can combine with various forms of meditation for example. mindfulness meditation usually helps alot better with ADHS then say wild vivid theta-imagery.

either way: go for it

oh btw: look into the ketogenic diet and if it's an option for you. it relieved me from say 75% of my ADS symptoms in an instant when i finally found a way to stay in ketosis. what NFB gave me is the ability to not have to eat like that all the time to live a normal life. however, i still prefer, because the mental clarity is just unheard of. (basicly the ketogenic diet put me from 400mg of modafinil to 200mg, then NFB to 0mg, same state).

Edited by VastEmptiness, 15 April 2015 - 07:42 PM.

[VastEmptiness]

let me correct on the prices: the assesment is now at 100$ and the brain trainer subscription for their protocols cost 120$ for a lifetime.

[hza]

@VE I enthusiastically second your recommendation for the Brain-Trainer assessment and program in conjunction w/TAGsync.  I know there are some who believe that TAG should in theory address all the imbalances and various problematic functions in the brain by itself, but in my own experience the B-T assessment and plan gave me very rapid relief and continued improvement in the long term despite my not having been able to do nfb of any sort since probably the middle of last year.  I would also add (to Alin) that B-T is probably the best hardware vendor for the Q-Wiz and PN products; the QW is in fact designed specifically to accommodate the Brain-Trainer TLC training program, and PN is known for being difficult to deal with directly for support issues.  B-T support is immediate and comprehensive.  I like DD but I get the feeling he's a one-man operation, and emailing him for support has been a hit/miss/mostly-miss process for me personally.  You're not going to get a substantially different price no matter who you buy from, so support should be a big factor in your decision making imo.

 

VE I'm interested in your assertion that the TLC assessment gives you insight into which sites need TAG training.  Could you elaborate a little on that?  What do I need to look for in my assessment to help guide me in my TAG training?

 

One more protocol that I think has tremendous promise that's gotten some mention here is George Martin of Northstar Neurofeedback's Entropy/IQR designs.  In terms of breaking ruts, patterns, loops in thought, etc, and increasing attention and flexibility, the literature is very promising.  I actually own the 2-channel design set, but it's one of the things I haven't personally gotten to train with yet as I've been tied up with more mundane but time-consuming matters.

 

There's a lot more I'd like to add to the discussion here between you and Crowstream, but as usual it has to wait for another time.  Thanks to you all for keeping it going.

 

- the nIr-HEG headband and life game (around 500$), which trains bloodflow to the prefortal cortex, which is used in ADHD treatment. i'll go with the same peter told me: "i would recommend this to everybody, but with your symptoms, it would be really stupid not to train HEG."

- a QEEG assessment done by brain-trainer.com and purchase their protocols (150$+200$), which will show accurately the patterns behind your symptoms and offer a training plan specifically for said symptoms and other areas that can use support in your brain. i liked the idea of it, the more i understand how the assessment works, i'm absolutely impressed by how integrative they work and i'll be using the same assessment in the future with clients. a nice bonus is that it shows which sites will profit the most of tag-sync training.

 

TAGsync itself is what i feel like both excellent meditation training and a general healing modality (what it does in short/simplistic, is connecting various existing neuronal patterns together, giving them a good option to change for the better. usually when you experience a chronic symptom, your brain is stuck into doing the same thing over and over, which you break up AFAIK with TAGsync). since your brain will autopoietically reorganize (out of more possible neuronal pathways, due to more connectivity), it should find a better pattern by his own. however, this might be a longer process. given that you spend the time in a meditative (calmed) state i would figure that it will help directly with the anxiety as you implicitly downtraining fast beta-waves. after some time there might be the experience of the anxiety coming but you'll be feeling the distance of an observer from it (like in meditation), which diminishes its impact greatly. happened to me pretty quickly as i was building on earlier meditative experiences. for the ADHS it kind of depends on whats the reason. meditation might not be the number one choice here. theres other modalities in the brain-trainer program that will help here quicker (like say beta-training/SMR - standard option for ADHS for a long time). however, i guess, since you're training the ability to learn new things all over the brain with tagsync, i think there's a good chance for a relief of any symptom caused by the brain really due to reorganization of its activity patterns. also it might be a question of what you during the training. you can combine with various forms of meditation for example. mindfulness meditation usually helps alot better with ADHS then say wild vivid theta-imagery.

either way: go for it

oh btw: look into the ketogenic diet and if it's an option for you. it relieved me from say 75% of my ADS symptoms in an instant when i finally found a way to stay in ketosis. what NFB gave me is the ability to not have to eat like that all the time to live a normal life. however, i still prefer, because the mental clarity is just unheard of. (basicly the ketogenic diet put me from 400mg of modafinil to 200mg, then NFB to 0mg, same state).

 

 

[Crowstream]

@BrainBright

 

The exercise article was very interesting, they also mention there that "cognitive engagement" can increase iAPF. Perhaps I will do a biohacking experiment in the future of doing intense exercise, cognitive training (like dual-n-back working memory training) and iAPF neurofeedback to see if I can raise my iAPF and what effects I can get from doing it. Would of course be interesting to have a reliable way of increasing cognitive function  .

 

In the Alpha Synchrony article you linked they mention the other article that I was quoting before ("BOLD correlates of EEG alpha phase-locking and the fMRI default mode network"). They suggest that the contradictory findings between these studies might be because they used iAPF to determine the alpha bands (in their article "upper alpha" is the range of each study participants iAPF+2Hz, so if someone has an iAPF of 10hz then upper alpha is 10-12Hz) and the "BOLD correlates of EEG.." study used fixed frequency bands so it might have been insensitive to individual variation. I think that makes sense and probably means the study you linked may be more accurate.

 

An interesting finding of this study is that the cingulo-opercular network has a positive correlation with alpha power, while the dorsal-attention network has a negative correlation with alpha power. The fronto-parietal network on the other hand has a positive correlation with alpha synchrony, so power and synchrony are related but different and may be targetting different networks.

 

The "BOLD correlates of EEG..." study however says dorsal attention network is associated with low alpha (8-10Hz) synchrony, so I am still a bit confused on that. Studies seem to be a bit contradictory, guess I have to read up more on it...

 

 

@Alin

 

TAG Sync can be great for anxiety for sure, that is probably one of the best uses... for ADHD I am less sure, I dont remember reading Douglas Dailey mentioning that and I dont have any personal experience. I know that "ADHD" is quite a big category and there are many many different kinds of ADHD as far as I know, so what kind of training you need is very hard to tell just based on the diagnosis. I think the best thing to do would be to as VastEmptiness suggested, also get the Brain Trainer system, to make a brain map where you can see how your brain is working and what kind of training you need.

 

I just read this article which is somewhat related: http://mindfitness.com/marriage.htm

 

In the article Adam Crane says alpha/theta is training what he calls "profound attention":

 

"If the ancients (and many of the modern masters) are correct the problem is that psychothenia (over thinking) "unconscious" or unobserved thinking is the fundamental barrier to the natural intelligence and creativity latent in humans; and if it is true that in most "normals" slow wave (ALPHA / THETA) but mostly mid-range ALPHA training can enhance the ability to profoundly attend to internal (thought, archetypical imagery, etc) and external phenomena simultaneously, in real time, then indeed ALPHA / THETA neurofeedback (skillfully managed) is one of the most valuable educational tools ever developed. Like a compass it can help the mind find its way through the confusion of too much, and overly conditioned thinking, to Profound Attention, the road less traveled, the way home. 

 

This hypothesis is not prejudiced against fast wave training (SMR / BETA); however, it does hold that the type of "attention" enhanced by SMR / BETA training should be redefined as a kind of "seize and hold" attention...a kind or class of attention highly impregnated by thought and very useful in its own right. This kind of attention is not the "Profound Attention" enhanced by ALPHA / THETA; it can, however, lead to "Profound Attention". And that should be a goal of advanced neurofeedback training. Obviously, I could be mistaken about this; however, I strongly believe that the evidence indicates the essential validity of this hypothesis. 

 

I once asked Dr. Les Fehmi to work with me teaching Attention Deficit Disorder protocols, and he commented, "Who in the world does not have Attention Deficit Disorder?" He was of course referring to the almost universal deficiency in the exercise of "Profound Attention". 

 

"Profound Attention" may be general or focused, and carries with it a quality of depth, or emotional integration as though one is attending with the heart as well as the brain. 

 

The following hypothetical model has considerable appeal to some. Brain cells perhaps in combination with surrounding glial cells etc., have at least two major capabilities...thinking and attention. These capabilities produce signals in the range of ALPHA for "Profound Attention" and BETA for thinking. The kind of attention enhanced by SMR / BETA training is what some are calling data-capture-and-hold attention. Eventually I believe this kind of attention will be redefined as a subset of thinking. 

 

Therefore, ALPHA training (perhaps other frequencies under different conditions allowing for individual idiosyncrasies) enables the individual to substantially increase the number of brain cells that are attending. They are attending to "what is". That is, these brain cells are reflecting (like smooth water) subtle signals (vibration). One of the most important things they are watching is thought. 

 

This thought is in the form of movie-like images being generated by other brain cells radiating energy in the form of approximately BETA. In short, ALPHA training can, in at least some people, enhance the ability to watch thought more clearly. The more clearly thought is attended to, the less subject to error it is. 

 

I believe brain cells (and their field) either are attending or thinking. I am uncomfortable with the idea that a single brain cell both attends and thinks at the same time; although that may be the case. Many are sensing that a paradigm shift is occurring in psychology. Some are already naming it the "Psychology of Awareness". 

 

The notion is that awareness itself breeds both optimal mental health and enhanced performance. This awareness and Profound Attention are the same or inter-dependent."

 

 

I think Adam Crane is spot on in these observations, alpha/theta training can create a great "space of awareness" where you can observe your thinking process very clearly, once you develop a high level of awareness you realize that most thinking is kind of useless, it is wasting a lot of energy on repeating old patterns of conditioning. At least this is what I have observed in myself, I feel like I am thinking a lot less these days and just resting in a space of awareness, I feel like this "silence" provides the space for deeper and more profound kinds of realizations to develop, a much more creative way of being in the world, rather than constantly repeating my old mental "scripts".

 

I dont know if that is an issue or not for you, but if your head is constantly filled with thoughts then I think a protocol like TAG Sync can help you reach a more quiet state of peaceful and spacious awareness.

 

Training beta/smr in turn might be working more on the active "data-capture and hold" systems of the brain so doing those kinds of protocols might also be a good idea and will probably complement alpha/theta protocols... I think though that the alpha/theta is the most basic and profound because it provides a new way of being, as your natural base of operation, a resting state that you can return to.

 

Hope that makes sense  .

[VastEmptiness]

 

 

VE I'm interested in your assertion that the TLC assessment gives you insight into which sites need TAG training.  Could you elaborate a little on that?  What do I need to look for in my assessment to help guide me in my TAG training?

 

If I am assuming correctly, then TAGsync doesn't just train cross-band-coherence but also coherence of each band across channels because it will only reward bigger rises in amplitude, which are likely coming from all channels. So while the TLC7 doesn't show TA- or TAG-synchrony it does show Alpha/Beta/Gamma Coherence&PhaseAlignment across all kinds of pairs of sites.

 

For example my Midline is doing pretty much alright in comparison to some other sites. I didn't read up up the literature of how where synchrony is the best, but it makes intuitive sense to strenghten the weakest players in the system, especially since the people in this thread (that did read up) emphasized training across all kinds of regions for a whole brain coherence of the TAG bands. For me, it show's training 4 channels of F7/F8/T3/T4 seems to make the most sense at the moment in terms of raising between-channel-coherence of T, A and G bands.

Please correct me If I'm wrong here or missing something.

[Jochen]

Did any of you experiment with the OpenBCI (16 channels) compared to the Q-Wiz (4 channels?).

 

I have not been able to find solid information on signal noise etc on the OpenBCI.

 

 

[VastEmptiness]

After an interesting conversation regarding the different bands with Crowstream, I ended up experimenting further with the rewards yesterday and had some very powerful experiences in result. Since part of my brain-training is to get up both slow- and gamma-band coherences I am in the process of trying to incorporate that into my TAGsync practice. So I ended up with the following design.

 

Theta-Alpha-Gamma-Delta Synchrony (4 Channel) Training w/Holosync (Binaural Beats)

 

- 4 channels across F7/F8/T3/T4, linked references (those are the sites with the lowest coherence scores in my brain, so I'll start here. you need to keep your eyes from moving to avoid artifact, but can train lying down)

- rewarding with the phase reset bell for bigger rises in amplitude across all 4 channels when all 4 bands rise in unity: 2-4hz delta, 4-7hz theta, 8-12hz alpha, 38-42hz gamma, reward is i think set around 80% auto

 

- looking at the spectrum 2-15 hertz, i found that rewards included both synchrony of delta and lower alpha, and delta higher alpha independent of each other and sometimes in conjuction (bigger phase resets with multiple bells, etc.). i think theres more than one distinct wave in the theta spectrum as well, but haven't really been looking for that. whats happening under the 2 hertz i have no idea, because it seems to get alot of artifacts, so i'll stick with 2-4hz for some time.

- what i'm training there seems to be delta-theta-alpha1-alpha2-gamma-synchrony which should lead to sick coherence scores all over the brain. since i don't know if alpha1/alpha2 synchrony is of any use, i'll keep them in one band for now.

 

- one nice relaxing soundscape rising in volume with the 10-12 amplitude

- the Holosync audio stimulation, running in the background. i'm at awakening level two , starting with "the dive 30min (alpha transitioning to theta) followed by immersion (delta) going down in used frequencies every half hour.

 

- i train mostly EC, but might cycle with EO which gives a different meditative experience (more quiet, non-content) and sometimes deepens the EC afterwards profoundly (a finding in hypnotherapy which is called fractionation and works very well in inducing alpha/theta trance states)

 

- i'll substitute this training with training coherence down in the beta-bands, especially in the back of the head, where scores are high.

- after some months of cycling through different brain areas, i'll do a new QEEG, comparing differences in coherences across 21 sites.

 

My experience after the first prolonged session (1.5-2hours, sadly my laptops battery died after that). It was a setting before going to sleep, I was already sleepy, had taken melatonin right before the session, which greatly enhances visuals in my case. Note also that I have some years of experience with both work with emotional imagery (hypnotherapy), meditation and some of both lucid dreaming and psychedelics. Due to therapy I lost the fear to jump into scary images and I know how to extract their emotional impact. However, most of the things I'm describing in the following seem to have happened on their own.

 

First Experience (1.5-2h session) & Interpretation

 

After around 40 minutes I transitioned from a meditative posture into a lying posture due to back pain, which then led to a phase of sleepiness/almost sleep at first. After that i switched on the delta-reward which interestingly enough seemed to help with the sleepiness. It felt like my body was almost asleep, but my mind stood fully conscious/clear during the process. This sensation might be due to rewarding synchrony of higher-alpha (awareness) bands along with the delta band. This reminded me of Wilber talking about long-term, 40 years meditators going to sleep, having a lucid dream followed by a conscious experience of the dreamless, deep sleep state. They seem to show high-alpha activity both during REM-theta-sleep and dreamless-delta-sleep. I'd like to find some papers on those recordings which he mentions at various points. What I found is those recordings on lucid dreamers, that seem to show more beta-1 (13-19hz) activity against non-lucid dreamers. However they only measured 1-20hz and it seems like there was no significant difference found in high-alpha. This is something I'll look more into due to my strong interest in both lucid dreaming and meditation.

 

Let me note that getting phase resets with the delta-band on there too (TAGD) is significantly harder than just training TAG or TA with the same thresholds. It takes another shift in awareness than TAG, which I haven't yet fully figured out. But it seems to correlate with further quietening of the mind for it to trigger and a more spacious focus (hard to explain). I get them less often over time, but when they come, the sensation is more profound. At that time I got into a really deep and quiet state both with blackness and imagery exchanging randomly. It took more of my focus to get the delta-resets which i think is helpful because i'm less easy absorbed in other things, thoughts, etc. However the largest difference was this experience of a sleepy body with a clear mind inside, which i want to investigate further.

At the last half hour of the session, I would get wild rushes of imagery of my childhood including traumatic imagery that had come up in hypnoanalysis and bad dreams I had as a kid. I deal with those on a regular basis by provoking a phase-reset while holding the sensation, which in theory should integrate the sensation and gives me very good results (I'm very clearly calibrated to my own biomarkers of integrating emotional material due to alot of work in hypnotherapy as a client). While I know these profound bodily sensations from both hypnosis and theta>alpha protocols (i get tingling, tension, then relaxation, etc, visons of light in my body), experiencing the integration in the TAGD-state seemed to be even more profound, from more distance and with more span. Memories rushed through my field of vision in a distance, including, and this makes me very happy, imagery that we couldn't integrate in my hypnoanalysis (things that would come up regularly, but not "open"). I realized that it's the non-trying in the state that opens up the memory and the trying/forcing of hypnotherapy, which works in most cases, couldn't reach those more enclosed experiences. The process left me with an amazingly sensation of having all my bodily muscles fully relaxed. That included the release of face tension ("not feeling the head"), including weird sensations like a sense of release of tension inside the nose and release of belly/chest tension that I didn't know about ("breathing into infinity"). When the state slipped I was able to return into it by following the phase resets. After the battery died I, i got back into the meditative posture and stood in the state for another 20 minutes. Had a deep sleep afterwards.

Recording of Larger Phase Resets

 

What is interesting to me is that the EEG recording of the most profound parts don't show the typical theta-over-alpha pattern that we find in regressive Theta>Alpha training, but rather a strong change in Gamma and Delta activity. As I said, the experience felt both different and more profound than what I get in Alpha/Theta, but the pattern shown is completely new to me. I'll add a screenshot of the last part of the TAGD session in comparison to the deepest T>A-session I had (Brain-trainer protocol i can highly recommend too).

 thetaspikes.jpg   568.81KB   4 downloads

 

Theta>Alpha Training: What looks like artifacts here is actually two hardcore spikes in theta. At this point I'm having a very strong integrative / mystical experience (white light in my body, healing my parents household, whatever). Note that the session only has a total of 23minutes, so I'm somewhat impressed by the protocol.

 

 TAGD-spikes.jpg   227.53KB   7 downloads

 

TAGD-Synchrony Training: In the TAGD session you see in both cases a strong rise in unity of all 4 bands (including alpha above) of almost the same amount (talking about major phase resets here). What I find interesting is that before I never saw greater rises in neither Gamma nor Delta. In between both boxes you see Gamma wildly spiking on it's own which I also never saw before. Whether this is due to changes in reward, the adding of binaural beats or just a result of more experience with TAGsync - I have no idea. Note that there is no wild spike in theta but rather simply synchrony among bands giving rise to a similar experience of integration&relaxation.

 

Any input on the theory behind what I think I'm training there is highly welcome, because honestly, I don't really know yet. Wether Alpha1 and Alpha2 synchrony is wanted is just a mystery to me as wether TAGD-synchrony is a good idea. However this first result motivates me to keep going. I'd like to further refine the bands/frequency ranges. If anybody is interested in the design (based on Crowstream's 4 channel design btw., much gratitude!) let me know.

Edited by VastEmptiness, 18 April 2015 - 05:25 PM.

[Crowstream]

@Jochen

 

I am curious about that too, I have heard that whole-head synchrony training is possible so trying out a 16-channel amp would be nice  . I wonder if it would be different from 2 or 4 channels...

 

After a while I think it would become annoying to put on 16 electrodes though, sometimes I think 4 is a hassle  .

 

 

@VE

 

You inspired me to give delta training another try, I have done 2 sessions of delta-alpha now (delta 2-4Hz and Alpha 8-12Hz). My experience both times was that it felt deeper, more calm and clear, usually theta training will have a lot of positive emotions, its emotionally engaging and makes me sort of blissed out but this delta-alpha training felt more like a very deep stillness. Not sure if it was a coincidence or not but seems interesting.

 

I was most impressed by the after effects the next day, I am doing a daily mindfulness of breathing practice and after the delta-alpha training it was much different from before, I went really deep right away without having to try and it had a kind of different quality to it, felt like a new experience. Could just have been because I have been practicing, but was nice either way. I am going to keep experimenting with this delta-alpha training  , I added a new sound for the delta channel so I can hear it change continuously.

[Matty72]

I just wanted to say hello and thank people for their contributions.

 

I've found my way here from initially following the discussions of people such as Crowstream, hza and Fractality (who I believe is Opaque Mind on here?) on the Bullet Proof forums.

 

I never imagined that I'd end up purchasing my own NF equipment and my first idea was to go and see a professional but after following a lot of the discussions I purchased HEG/EEg/Qwiz from Brain Trainer last week and it arrived on Saturday, so I'm in now no turning back!

 

I've got HEG Life game going and the next step is to understand how to create a TLC assessment, it's a little overwhelming as I'm not overly strong in regards to picking up new software but I'm hopeful that a mixture of doggedness on my part and the support offered by BT will get me there in reasonable time, also I would really appreciate it if I get stuck at all if I could tap into the knowledge and experience here.

 

I've enjoyed reading the contributions from VastEmptiness who seems to have made great progress in a relatively short timeframe with BT so all this discussion I'm finding hugely encouraging.

 

Actually I just googled something earlier today around HEG experiences and I got a link to a really informative thread on BP by hza, so I was grateful for that little treasure trove of info.

 

If anyone has any advice or thoughts on what the best approach might be for me right now to get to grips with everything I'd certainly be appreciative, as I'm finding that BT has a heap of information and resources but they aren't always positioned in a naturally linear step by step way........or perhaps I should say that my somewhat linear mind craves the simplicity of step by step instruction.

 

 

[VastEmptiness]

Crowstream: I am curious about that too, I have heard that whole-head synchrony training is possible so trying out a 16-channel amp would be nice    . I wonder if it would be different from 2 or 4 channels... After a while I think it would become annoying to put on 16 electrodes though, sometimes I think 4 is a hassle    .

 

They have a kind of headband with fixed electrodes that you can 3D-print if I see it correctly. Other than having a shitload of paste on your head shouldn't be harder than using the cap. They're missing some sites in the back it seems but cover most of the 10/20 System. Btw: Doing assessment on 16 channels however would be a dream. Also you could do very exact mappings of peak performance states and build some more complex reward patterns on top. Also I agree: Training synchrony on 16 channels should give crazy results. For most other trainings I guess 2 channels will just work fine and be easier because of the fewer parameters to watch. I don't really know about all the tech - which is the part why not everybody is using this? How hard is assembly?

Interested what you write about Delta-Alpha. A comparison to training all band-resets in felt-experience would be of interest. As my sleep is getting better, I'm more motivated to look into lucid dreaming and a possible NFB training for that btw.

 

Matty72: I've enjoyed reading the contributions from VastEmptiness who seems to have made great progress in a relatively short timeframe with BT so all this discussion I'm finding hugely encouraging.

Welcome on board! Very happy to read this as I feel a deep gratitude myself to all contributors here, as they made the final difference of me actually putting up the money and going into this. Have been gazing at NFB from time to time for years now. And indeed there is alot of change going on. It seems to be no problem to train daily in a stable condition. Can recommend to ramp up neuroprotection using supplements; I have no way to compare but other than sometimes being overstimulated and having some intense emotional, cathartic flushouts (very pleasent however), I was very stable the whole time. However one should take caution and be able to reflect on the effects of each protocol and finetune accordingly. The effects of some of the protocols resemble some of the strongest medications I have used. Especially if you're using Nootropics, their effect can change/increase rapidly from my experience. Some minor supplements that I use turned into strong stimulants and the "real" Nootropics seem to hit alot stronger. HEG might be a major contributor. Bloodflow training will increase the effect of any drug that is transported to that area I guess.

 

Finetuning is a good term to describe what I am doing right now: When I feel a little big brainfogged, I do another cycle of Theta-Down or Beta/SMR. When I feel muscle tension, i do SMR, etc. HEG has been a blast and I'll just continue training with it for the rest of my life i guess. Wonder how far one can stretch sessions over some years, but looking at what humans can achieve due to physical training I guess the ability to sustain blood flow into your cortex can be stretched immensely as well. It's real easy, not long setup, quick and has incredible effects on concentration and wakefulness for me. However I find myself more and more just wanting to train TAGsync because it seems to make me more independent of phenomena that my body produces, so shaping them becomes somewhat less interesting than it was before. Also resembles a basic human dynamic of wanting what we don't have I guess. My cognition/wakefulness is far from perfect, but it's just immensely better than before. Maybe my low alpha-peak is a blessing after all...

As for a step-by-step introduction: I'd recommend you to start with HEG Life as it's almost Plug- and Play. For the assessment you should seek the help of Braintrainer support. Their products & the assessment includes support in setting it up and with any trouble you'll run into in the beginning.  Karen has been very helpful. Having technical support done by a long-term Neurofeedback trainer was definitely much more efficient than getting help by some guy in a call-center in India.


Further optimisations of the rewards / Rewarding different-sized phase resets

Since we are training for both between-bands and inner-band coherence, I'll add some ways to track those values in and across sessions. Also I feel that raising alpha-amplitude is somewhat useless in my case, so i'll rather hook up the volume to either the Gamma Band (not much look here so far) or to something like an coherence-average across bands (will try, worked well in other protocols i used). Maybe some other forms of reward will prove to be more effective (like rewarding top 10% of coherence scores with a sound for example).

What I'll definitely add is a more differentiated phase-reset reward. The options on the threshold settings is really just wether you want to reward either small or bigger phase resets. I guess most transition from smaller to bigger phase resets as they get better at producing them. Still I feel like setting it harder to get is cutting out some for of short-feedback efficient learning (You basically don't know wether you're close or completely off in between rewards). The obvious solution is here to reward in steps: Small phase-resets give off clicks, "guiding the way", bigger phase-resets get the regular Bell sound and huge phase resets could be rewarded with a long traditional Gong or something. I guess the latter can be valuable in learning to produce major phase resets, because the threshold set in a usual way will not distinguish here. Some other ideas would be to add continuous feedback that resembles how far you are away from getting a reset. Not sure what you would have to hook it up, though. Phase synchrony? Adding smaller rewards is precisely useful in the context of the 4-band-synchrony that I'm training now because it's simply harder to produce those resets.

Training At-Task

Another thing, that I want to set up in the near future, is a protocol to guide me while I'm working. Candidatus wrote something about combining brain-training like dual n-back with phase-resets to maximize learning. This resonated in the reading of this paper (http://philpapers.org/rec/SHABEA) where the author notes correlations between learning, gamma synchrony and amplitude and an emission of acetylcholine in possibly all brain areas (during meditation). The connection between acetylcholine and learning should be obvious to any nootropic user. So what I'm thinking of is giving continuous (background, more unconscious) feedback on either parameter (gamma sync, gamma or high alpha amplitude) during the time you're sitting at your desk while also rewarding phase-resets as usual and having close-to-silent binaural beats guide you to either gamma or high-alpha. As a student, I could do this at home for prolonged hours, because what I'm doing is mostly read anyway. What I'm most interested in however is to learn more to create phase resets at will during the day. They give me a sensation of making whatever arised before to become less important, thus creating a space for both, new creative ideas and/or peace/calm instead of worries. I like the idea of conditioning myself to "resetting" between thoughts at will. What inspired me is Jon Kabat-Zinn here basicly doing mini-meditations before he answers a question. Talking about integrating phase resets into everyday life. Also I see no possible side effects of prolonged training other than maybe enlightenment :> Any ideas on the protocol would be appreciated.

 at-task-setup.jpg   413.63KB   1 downloads

I already got my gear for it. Can recommend both Windows8-tablets and high-dpi displays for running Bioexplorer. Also this adds some battery time for prolonged meditation. Would love to add the wireless option for the Q-wiz, but I can already see myself running around every day life with electrodes on the head and a Win8 tablet in the backpack, producing phase resets in the subway. And since I'd like to keep some sanity for now, that'll have to wait.

Edited by VastEmptiness, 22 April 2015 - 11:00 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

Inspired by VEs explorations in the Delta range with TAGsync, I wondered how low I could take the reward frequency with TAGsync. I've done two sessions now training 0.05-0.2hz (could go lower, will explore further) and 0.2-1hz. Since I've been doing a lot of Infra-low frequency work with TAGx1 (bipolar placement, training differential phase relationship) to good effect, I thought that training synchrony at this range would also be an interesting exercise. As far as I am aware it has never been done at this frequency before. There is no literature explicitly describing the effects of Infra-low frequency synchrony patterns, nor any neurofeedback clinicians reporting on using it. Preliminary results are promising.

 

It has been hypothesized that ILF frequencies are produced by glial cells, and been determined that they correspond with cortical hemodynamics (bloodflow response). Glial cells are key to the construction, modulation and destruction of synapses, and guide the supply of oxygen and nutrients to neurons. A finely working glial network is very important for overall brain flexibility and optimal intelligence. One of the things they found in Einstein's brain when they sliced it up to see what made him such a genius was an unusually high abundance of glia. I say this just to suggest the neuroscientifically established importance of working with these networks.

 

My experience has been quite profound so far. I have experienced some of the deepest psychological and bodily integrations yet on this journey, accompanied by a freer mind, greater relaxation and a significant freeing up of energy within the body. Earlier in one of these neurofeedback threads we discussed the notion of Sankharas (a Buddhist term), which are simply conditioned mind formations. The sum of our personal history that we have internalised at an emotional level, and which structures our emotional landscape. I believe this structures the attractor-space of the psyche, in a roughly analogous way to the way that large bodies of mass bend the structure of space-time, in the sense that thought-emotion paths often get caught within the gravitational grooves that are a product of a body of mass (historically conditioned mind-formation) in the vicinity. To a passive traveller moving within this structured spacetime, say, a rock, they are bound to the grooves, without forethought of or effect on where they want to go or how they want to feel. The active traveller is one who seeks to restructure this space. It typically requires the application of will to affect the steady restructuring of this space, against the gravitational effects of mass inertia (mind inertia). Dissolving Sankharas is the destruction of these bodies. The personal effects of this destruction are increased mental, emotional and behavioural freedom and flexibility, increased complexity in thought and behaviour, increased mindfulness and reduced mindlessness, increased openness of mind to novelty and the unknown, and so on.

 

I bring this up because I think this is quite central to what TAGsync does in the brain/mind system. VE earlier described phase resets as a feeling of 'letting go', and some of us have observed phase resets as accompanying a sense of increased psychological integration. It has been my experience that the integrations which occur with progressively lower frequencies seem to generally be more intense the lower I go. It is known that the infant brain's dominant frequency is around the Delta range, and that the dominant frequency increases as one gets older, usually stabilising around upper alpha. I thought that as well as delta dominance, the glial network and the Infra-low frequencies are also going to be working hard to restructure the synaptic weights of billions of neurons in a child's brain. Since these are the dominant frequencies at a young age, it makes sense that mind conditionings laid down then will be encoded on these frequencies. It is well known that generally experiences you have as an infant shape the trajectory of your mental evolution more strongly than those you experience later in life, with a general decline in intensity of mind/brain restructuring as you get older. I think this is in part a product of the gravitational intensity of the attractor structures constructed from early experiences, often before we can even speak or comprehend the world in any deep sense, which then fundamentally shape (and generally constrain) the possibility space of our future evolution. Like planets being caught in the gravity of solar bodies, and moons being captured in the gravity of planetary bodies, and so on and so on. On this kind of model, the deepest Sankharas are the ones that constrict us most, because they constrain our evolutionary possibilities most deeply, and have delineated the possibilities and thus the growth of our minds from a very early age. Subjectively, the magnitude or influence of a Sankhara seems to relate to the depth of the sense of energetic integration during its dissolution, the degree of joy/positivity felt during and afterwards, and how much freer one feels after. In very powerful cases there can also seem to be a sense of a kind of 'reformation of the soul'. This is what I experienced while meditating after doing my second ILF sync session. It literally felt as if some part of my body and consciousness, a significant and large part, that was previously lost from me, reformed within me (felt within my upper/mid chest area), rejoined with me, and a bodily sense of quite strong incompletion and dissociation that I had not previously noticed was healed. I felt incredibly joyous afterwards, and very conscious of everything around me without any application of effort. Today I feel newly at rest in myself.

 

What are thoughts? One view me might take is they are semantics encoded in electromagnetics. Electromagnetism can be modelled as wave processes. Thoughts (and mind formations more generally), as do electromagnetic wave phenomena, display constructive and destructive interference; thoughts in phase combine to render greater intensity and thus modulate our attention most strongly (think of the experience of conceptual integration, emotional confluence, confirmation bias etc), while thoughts out of phase when combined annihilate each other and leave no trace (the shamed ask for forgiveness and annihilate their shame, too much incongruent data destroys a theory etc). Sometimes we can integrate Sankharas from the psychological level directly, by reliving the experience in a metaphorically analogous way while experiencing some kind of inverse emotion. Sankharas are all formations 'out of phase' with the rest of the mind, hence why they are subconscious. Their information is dissociated from the rest of the mind, often pushed away because of dissonance with the typically engaged mind-pattern, the ego (the sum of beliefs about world and self). What is the self but a temporary construct out of phase with the wider world? The sum of pushing away the world, the sum of our past pushings away of the world. A subconscious psychological inference from the observation of this tensional dynamic, whose construction is arbitrary but whose constitution we take to be absolute. Synchrony is harmony, harmony is joy, joy is TAGsync 

 

Edit: I used a 4 channel TAG protocol for this one. I assume a similar though less intense effect may be experienced from 2 channel training. When using protocols involving ILF we need to deactivate DC offset and use a high signal bandwidth. On the Q-wiz this is done by holding down the link button until the blue light comes on, and by setting the Wiz in mode 3 (for 2 channels) and 4 (for 4 channels). You also need to change the bandpass filter from 1-60 (or whatever it currently is) to something like -2.5-60 so you get the full signal of the lower frequencies.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 23 April 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Crowstream]

@VE

 

I like that idea of rewarding different sized resets! I guess it could be done by copying the current design setup and just replicating it for as many reward sounds as you want, might fill up the screen with a lot of reward bars though?   Im sure that could be solved somehow though... Might be hard to make just one of them trigger though, say for example if you set them to trigger at 80, 90 and 95% then at the 95% level all three will trigger. I am sure that could be programmed somehow in the design, would just take some tinkering.

 

Training at task:

 

You can check out this article for more information about that: Theta–gamma cross-frequency coupling relates to the level of human intelligence - http://www.sciencedi...160289614001032

This is Douglas comment on the paper:

 

"This suggests that LRTGC (low resting T-G coupling) can adapt to load by increasing the T-G coupling, suggesting "fluid" intelligence. On the other hand, HRTGC (high resting T-G coupling) appears dynamically rigid (cf Ulrich) without the ability to evolve flow under task."

 

So the ability of the brain to modulate the level of cross-frequency coupling (especially theta-gamma) seem to be highly related to intelligence, in this study the more intelligent subjects increased their T-G coupling under difficult parts of the ravens advanced progressive matrices test so T-G coupling is related to cognitive "load" and performance... It struck me when I read this study that most neurofeedback training is done on its own, rather than in combination with a task. Since there seems to be huge differences in brain dynamics between resting and task conditions, it makes sense to me to do neurofeedback training on task conditions also, to optimize those specific brain dynamics.

 

My suggestion for a protocol for this is probably to use a TAG Sync design, maybe 2-channel to start with, and set it to train theta-gamma synchrony, in order to work on the cross-frequency coupling of theta and gamma. Ideal sites for this will target the fronto-parietal network (FPN), because of its relation to intelligence. Possible electrode setups would be F3-P4, F4-P4 or F3-O1 or F4-O2. Those are the site-pairs most highly involved in IQ as far as I know (I can dig up a study on it if you like).

 

 

@Opaque

 

These slow frequencies are a very interesting area to explore for neurofeedback training, I think it has mostly not been utilized at all so far (except for the Othmers and a few others but I dont think they do ILF synchrony training or anything like that).

 

Lately I have been training delta-alpha with TAGx4 setup, I set the delta to 1-4Hz or 2-4Hz and alpha 8-12Hz. I have experienced some similar effects from doing that, it feels like it helps me access very deep states of mind, like areas of the unconscious. The result in the last session was that I experienced a lot of pain in my body (mainly back and neck). It was like this pain was ordinarily repressed aspects that were surfacing for integration, I could be aware of and just feel the pain and that made it dissolve. I suspect that as you say, these lower frequencies might be more highly related to early experience, I did not experience any related content to the pain, it was just sort of a primitive suffering, perhaps encoded on a pre-verbal level of development and thus not attached to any mental concepts or memories. I think these early pre-verbal experiences especially are difficult to integrate because we cannot attach and interperate it with language, the experiences will then keep existing on a repressed level as some sort of background tension and unease.

 

 

I am including an attachment from "Psychiatric Encephalography" by psychiatrist and EEG researcher Gerald Ulrich:

 Ontogenesis of the EEG.jpg   91.07KB   5 downloads

 

This shows the developmental sequence of the EEG and the possible pathological variations, you can see them as deviations from the overall lines of development. Heres what the book says about this:

"For the EEG, too, the progression from the undifferentiated to the differentiated, thus an increase of order and its

maintenance, was considered a general biological principal of maturation. In the EEG of the new-born with a relatively lowvoltage

1/2-2/s-activity - with superseding 10-30/s waves - no order of any kind is recognizable. Only a very coarse

distinction is possible between the waking-EEG and the sleeping-EEG. Only after a period of 6 months can we talk about a

subvigil intermediary stage in the form of groups and sequences of a rhythmic 2-4/s activity. We must remember that the

interindividual variability of the speed of maturation differs widely, even within the normal range. Instead of discussing the

ontogenesis of the EEG by means of the customary chronological ordering of isolated features we prefer a cursory sketch

of the general developmental principles that allow to preserve a coherent overview.

In the first 10 years of life, development is determined by such formative tendencies that result in steady increase of

amplitude, level of synchronization and frequency. It must be mentioned that this developmental tendency shows regional

heterogeneities. Because of an accentuation of the posterior regions, a topographical differentiation occurs, too.

 

To the degree that the amount of diffuse irregular slow activity is pushed back a more rhythmic and fast activity becomes

dominant. There also exists a typical lateral difference. Approximately around the 3rd to 4th year, a passing intermittent

right-posterior accentuation of irregular slow waves (EEG-OLOFSSON 1971) is found, corresponding to a topographical

heterogeneity of the maturation process. Around the 9th year, the alpha-activity becomes posteriorly accentuated. The

EEG differs from the adultomorph one only because of a more or less high amount of interspersed slow waves. That the

development is by no means completed at this point is evidenced especially during the transition from wakefulness to sleep.

This transition is marked until puberty and even beyond that point by groups and sequences of rhythmic high-amplitude,

frontally-accentuated waves with a frequency of 6-7/s (in infants from 3-5/s)."

 

 

I think I have read Douglas write that because of the filters used (if I remember correctly, might have been something else), training theta for example will tend to train the rhythmic theta, which is usually considered the "good" kind. Perhaps there is a similar logic to delta training. Also the general developmental sequence of the EEG seems to indicate increased synchronization as an indicator of maturation, so perhaps this applies to ILF also.

 

Edit: Just found this interesting piece of information from DDs writings:

"Cross frequency coupling between infra-slow, delta and theta rhythms

are necessary for normal attentive processes."

 

"There are many possible reasons to train delta and ultra-low frequency

(ULF) EEG synchrony. These frequency are not reliably represented in

databases and can thus be given therapeutic trials of self-regulation."

 

Edited by Crowstream, 23 April 2015 - 03:58 PM.