707 replies to this topic

[Bobity]

@OpaqueMind

 

Your post MBTI makes me think of Ken Willber's Tier2 or Turgquiose level.  Do you think TAGsync facilitiates/enables a shift through developmental levels ?  

 

[hza]

I'm positive that any kind of imbalance or malfunction correctable by nfb generally but certainly including TAG will impede "normal" adult ego development, because my own experience has been a tremendous growth curve since beginning nfb with Brain-Trainer about 2 years ago.  I've been following Wilber and I suppose could be called "Integrally informed" since about 2003, I just don't have time for extended discussion these days.  

 

My model for what nfb does follows an analogy for a high-performance motor:  if certain cylinders aren't firing at all, or firing out of sequence--in other words, actual mechanical failure--TAG can address this and get it all working again, with the timing sequence and etc all ironed out and full performance from all cylinders.  A good nfb plan for balancing brain activity such as what Brain-Trainer provides is like fine adjustments to the fuel delivery system, which can be fine-tuned to suit different performance needs.  Just a working model that I refer to when I think about the various modalities do, no idea how valid any of it is.  

 

But as for developmental growth into higher stages, I'm absolutely convinced that these techniques can be invaluable tools.

 

@OpaqueMind

 

Your post MBTI makes me think of Ken Willber's Tier2 or Turgquiose level.  Do you think TAGsync facilitiates/enables a shift through developmental levels ?  

 

 

 

[Crowstream]

About Dario Nardio/MBTI:

I read his book "Neuroscience and personality", found it to be quite interesting. Some of the patterns he describes matched up somewhat between what I would guess is most probably my type (INTP) and the brain maps I have made with the brain trainer setup. I do believe neurofedback can help even out extreme personality and help you develop towards a more balanced way of being in the world. For example I would say I am very much a thinking type but I feel like I have become a lot more sensitive to my body and emotions.

This matches up quite well to how I interpret Jungs analytic psychology, of individuation as a kind of circular revolvement around the center... I think this is reflected in his views of the mandala as a symbol for this kind of psychic process:

 

 

“My mandalas were cryptograms concerning the state of the self which was presented to me anew each day…I guarded them like precious pearls….It became increasingly plain to me that the mandala is the center. It is the exponent of all paths. It is the path to the center, to individuation. ”

 

“I began to understand that the goal of psychic development is the self. There is no linear evolution; there is only a circumambulation of the self.”

 

I believe nature has a tendency to build complexity over time, it does this by an ongoing flow of differentiation and integration... I believe this is reflected in the psychic process... a personality is a kind of differentiation from the whole, a unique individual who is at the same time interconnected with the rest of the universe. I think problems arise when there is a disturbance in the looping flow of this process, like for example all differentiation but little integration... I think that is quite common in the modern world because it is the state of society as a whole... What I mean by that is I think the "modern project" is a kind of differentiation from nature, perhaps a part of our evolutionary unfoldment but something that has grown quite pathological. Our lack of integration into the wholeness of nature is causing a lot of problems I think, like environmental issues, war, poverty... essentially because our minds are out of balance and focusing in only on finite closed-systems, basicly living in our thoughts about the world. I am sure that does not apply to everyone but I think it may be a general tendency...So I think we need ways of reconnecting ourselves to the mind of nature, the best way I have found so far is the TAG Sync training.

 

Ken Wilber/Integral view:

I have grown convinced that neurofeedback, and especially TAG Sync can help facilitate development through the levels of consciousness. The integral + levels are difficult to understand from our present level of consciousness, I think because they are transpersonal.

I think most of us are framing reality from a personal perspective because we are still not at the integral and beyond levels... I think the attainment of these higher levels of consciousness is not really a personal thing, it is beyond the personal, I think it is actually the evolution of global mind structures, shared by a collective of individuals. I think it is very important that we work together to attune ourselves to these levels of our evolutionary unfoldment as it will be required for us to proceed to building more sustainable and evolved societies. I think in astrophysics there is talk about the different levels a civilization can achieve (the Kardashev scale), a type I civilization uses all available resources of its home planet, a type II starts using the energy of its local star, a type III uses the energy of the galaxy... by these definitions we are still a type 0 civilization  . We still have a long way to go in consciousness evolution, but we are at some critical point in our development now where everything is changing... I think any mind that is tuning in to the cosmic mind is aiding the development of these new structures of consciousness that we are unfolding. However, enlightenment is not of much use unless we are all sharing it  .

 

The reason why I think TAG Sync is my favorite protocol is because it utilizes the self-organizational capabilities that are already built into the universe... just think about it, the universe has the capability to manifest all of the experiences we are having right now, and it is all organizing itself somehow without our intervention. In the same way I think our minds can tune towards this self-organizing force and allow our minds to be structured in accordance with the unfolding wholeness. Many other approaches involves more of a top-down approach where humans will select the direction of unfoldment that they think is useful and healthy, I think that can be a bit of a naive approach because it assumes we already know what is good for us. It can of course be useful so I am not dismissing it, we do have a lot of research to show us what may be a healthy brain pattern. It is my belief however that we are also different from each other for a reason, so having a "non-standard" brain can often be very useful. I like to think of brain training more along the lines of developing harmony within your own voice to resonate with other voices, in a choir for example. In the same way our brainwaves is the instrument that when tuned appropriately can harmonize with the rest of the universe and still retain its uniqueness...

[OpaqueMind]

I am not too familiar with Wilber's models of development, so I can't comment on that specifically. I do get a strong sense that for me, TAGsync enables, accelerates and integrates psychological development, on quite a few different levels.

 

Egoically; healthy ego development to me is signified by the ego taking the proper place in the mind, not dominating the psyche and its contents at all instances, but only when appropriate. Healthy ego development is often interfered with by traumas or strong negative experiences, as the mind develops a fixation on meeting some need that feels perpetually unmet. These fragments of subconscious desire seem to act like gravity wells for the psyche, mindlessly playing themselves out but never truly being addressed due to their subconscious and repressed nature. In the healthy mind the ego can take a back seat to full engagement which is not self-oriented in the sense of fulfilling an ego need. The mind is then unanchored from egoic limitations and can engage more complex and socially inclusive evolutionary patterns. When the mind gains a certain level of stability the ego can be dissolved at will, and has no domination over the mind, but becomes just another tool in the varied toolbox of mind. I have the interesting ability now, after extensive TAGsync training, to essentially 'switch off' my ego. When I do this I get a strong sense of expansion, like my mind has been untethered from some invisible constraints. Every sense is increased in intensity, saturation and immersion and the world takes on an innocent quality, a sense of absolute freshness, like it is being felt for the first time. So now my ego has been put in a healthy place within the dynamic framework of my mind, and does not dominate me any longer like it does the vast majority of people, and like it used to with myself. This allows greater empathy and perspective too, which I find quite helpful in thinking and social relations.

 

Cognitively; mind evolves from predominately fragmentary thinking to holistic thinking. Integration is the primary motif here. I think this is linked in part to the above development of the flexibility of ego engagement, coupled with increased short-term memory span and general cognitive efficiency. The mind evolves in more leaps and bounds as opposed to predominately via linear steps, though it still employs these. Thoughts self-organise into more and more inclusive systems, often reconfiguring the entire structure and leading to novel ways of thinking and an integrated worldview. This requires a certain degree of non-attachment to the formulations of thoughts so far constructed, because some will inevitably be re-interpreted during the shifts in the meaning of the whole, a non-attachment which I think is related to the developments outlind above. Intuition and logic harmonise into a powerful whole.

 

Emotionally; the stickiness of negative emotions is completely gone. I may still get annoyed, or momentarily feel not great about something, but it passes in seconds with the stimulus and my mind very quickly regains deep balance. There is no rumination on anything negative. Positive feelings can be readily generated at any moment by simply 'tuning in' to consciousness. The baseline feeling is one of strong contentment and engagement. Something I notice that is really interesting is that I never get bored anymore. I think this is in part because my default mode has become more one of engagement with the immediate reality rather than being stuck in egoic projections which always seek fulfilment and blank out aspects of reality which cannot help fulfil its aims, and therefore finding reality lacking when it cannot satisfy these mental constructs.

 

Those are the main categories of development that I can think of, perhaps maturation of social cognition could be included in the analysis, but I feel it follows fairly straightforwardly from the above descriptions.

[gedanken]

@Gedanken, regarding the topic of MBTI, I have some observations from my own experience with TAGsync. I classify as INTP, and as all types it has its own tendencies towards certain abilties being hyperdeveloped and others being underdeveloped. One of the things that INTPs are known for is being infatuated with logic and ideas, often to the point of neglecting the immediate physical reality before them. It is my observation that in times of mental health deterioration the contours of my personality have been exacerbated to the point of significant dysfunction, particularly in terms of social interaction. It is a stereotype, but also I think partially true, that certain kinds of thinking and socialising effectively are positioned in an antagonistic relationship to one another. You could conceive the relation as something like linear/non-linear, logical/intuitive, textual/contextual, and often this dynamic is significantly leaned in one direction or another for certain personality types, and they can find it difficult if not impossible to engage the inverse aspect of the dynamic. Each extreme is pathological and leads to a detriment in the efficiency of mental and worldly functioning.

 

Over time I have noticed a gradual reformation of my personality away from the extreme rigidity of endless logical rumination, and towards a more flexible mind that can engage the appropriate mindset at the appropriate time rather than overfitting my old default mode to every situation, that would often cause misunderstanding and disconnection. However this does not mean my personality has flattened out; I still have my preferences and I still greatly enjoy thinking. But I am much more adaptable to circumstance now, and have more cognitive states at my disposal for engaging effectively with the various demands of everyday situations. The pathological stickiness of certain modes of being is essentially gone, and I come now to rest in a finely tuned balance which makes me an all round more effective (and happier) person. There is an interesting mirroring here with the dynamics of self-organised criticality actually; criticality being an optimal point poised between many potential evolutionary paths of system possibilities, the point at which global phase-transitions most readily can occur and at which the phase-space of the potentiality of a system is maximised. This is reflected in the readiness of the mind to adapt to whatever is arising and an enhanced flexibility of the personality.

 

So if I understand you right you're saying that TAGsync has given you the ability to not carry out the tendencies your personality type is known for, things that you may have done in the past? Since you're familiar with MBTI, do you think as an INTP who's familiar using Ne-Si as a default can train yourself to use Se-Ni instead as a default if you choose?

 

Also since I love music, do you think TAGsync can train somebody to flow into the music making process better? I'm also really interested in your comments about nearly living through life like you're always in the zone. Something I try to accomplish no matter what I'm doing, I'm addicted to that feeling. I'll literally sit in the gym for an hour taking jump shots, having no interest in  playing a game, just so I can get into a zone and make 10 3 pointers in a row.

 

Thanks for answering questions by the way.

[open-it]

 

@open-it

 

My friend has still not received his OpenBCI so I havent tried it. There seems to be a general pattern with startups like these that they are a bit slow in delivering at first...I guess he will receive it eventually though but it has been a long wait hehe  .

 

I have a feeling that it's better to buy it from ebay. Many people have their plans changed while they wait for a device, so they then try to sell it without even using it much. I got mine from ebay, I was delivered within a week or two and it was unopened. It was also cheaper than if I were to order it on the official site (there was no competition and my bid was the lowest).

 

 

I wish I could but It's not there and the arduino version is also out of stock on openbci.com.  I really want to get into this and that OpenBCI seems like the way in for me.  I'm mainly wondering if I could potentially regret that purchase because the Q-Wiz can do more.  OpenBCI is cheaper and has more inputs so would I be giving up sensitivity or something essential?

[Bobity]

Thanks @OpaqueMind, @crowstream & @hza for your comments – very inspiring & refreshing to see such openess.

 

About 6 years ago I went through an awakening experience which lasted 3 or 4 years,  in which all of the egoic, cognitive & emotional stuff mentioned by OpaqueMind happened while on a retreat with Unmani a Non Dual teacher.  Something fundamental had changed but I could not verbalise what it was.  

 

Gradually the ego, cognitive and emotional stickiness have returned but never as entrapping as before :  the cell door had been blown away.  It was a delight/freedom/liberation/coming home/connection/all my dreams come true all rolled into one.

 

About 2 ½ years ago I suddenly began getting Anxiety attacks for no apparent reason.  It seemed almost like a part of me craved the prison of before.  I tried a number of things – Pamela Wilson suggested Michael Brown’s The Presence Process – I did a couple of cycles of that with some effect but no resolution.  What really helped loads was HRV training using a heartmath like device called Stresseraser.  So I use that every day.  It has had a big impact on  my baseline stress levels.

 

Looking forward to getting started on nfb should TAGsync & a Q-wiz eventually arrive (I ordered it in the beginning of April).

[Godof Smallthings]

Bobity, are you familiar with spiritual progress 'maps'? As far as I know, those are not acknowledged or used in non-dual traditions, but from reading your description, I was thinking they could be helpful to know about.

 

The Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana meditation tradition from Burma has a very detailed map. Daniel Ingram has practiced using that path and also taught a bit himself. He has written a book about what he has found which you can find online shared for free, 'Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha'.

[Bobity]

Much appreciated @Godof Smallthings - I've downloaded it and will take a look

[VastEmptiness]

@Bobity: After studying Wilber's material now for years and pursuing it's implications both in practice and theory. His models held up when i was investigating various fields of the human sciences and of some of them I evolved more "integrally-informed" interpretations/re-readings, i guess. When I read through the thread and especially the contributions of OpaqueMind, i was hooked by the idea of having stumbled upon the holy grail of accelerating the vertical developmental process as outlined by Wilber. Now after some months of training I have to say that the effects of TAGsync training far supercede my expectations, both in how much&quickly the training bettered my meditative skills and how therapeutic the training is on the other hand (in terms of integrating "shadow" material). For the latter I have a basic understanding now why that is neurologically, mostly derived from this paper (http://www.ingentaco...020003/art00007) - which both enhanced my understanding of TAGsync and my own practice as a therapist. I'm not yet anywhere near the constant access to those states as Opaque describes them, but I keep having peak experiences (subtle and overwhelming), both in practice and every day life as well as witnessing a constant integration of the more detached/transpersonal way of perceiving and thinking.

So what I am trying to say in relation to Wilbers model is, I think trainings like TAGsync can serve to

 

a) Differentiate/Transcend (Vertical Development 1): Losen neurotic behavioural patterns ('attractor networks'), by establishing a distance from them through meditative states and meditative awareness in everyday ('mindfulness'). With Wilber we can view any stage as a neurotic fixation (fulfilling a purpose) that is to be overcome. The only more powerful technique of losening up the previous model of the world I know of is psychedelics (on the more radical side) and of course everyday-possibilities like constant change of contexts, learning environments, social contacts, traveling, reading, etc.

 

b) Integrate/Stabilize (Horizontal Development/Shadow Work): I notice in most sessions some integration of traumatic or other emotionally charged material.  That is, memories, often very old, will pop up and transform themselves or just dissolve directly. That goes along with a sensation of release/healing/peace and usually strong phase resets across all bands. It's very close to the experience of successful interventions in regressive hypnotherapy and might be amplified in my case by the fact that I have alot of experience with the latter and/or also the fact that I train delta-synchrony as well. According to Wilber this is the turf of psychotherapy and does not get touched with meditative practice ("You can sit on your pillow for ten years and never meet your shadow"). While I don't know about that really other than it didn't happen to me in two years of Zazen, it definitely does so with TAGsync. In the relationship to therapeutic work I would say that TAGsync does some and some more aspects of/than psychotherapy but so is the reverse-relation, so both should form a synergy. I'm creating a model of TAGsync-enhanced psychotherapy in my mind implicitly and have very good experience with the first two clients combining the two modalities so far. Conscious exposing to traumatic/bothersome/loaded material during practice might speed up the process in terms of guiding awareness to where the worst splits occur. From my experience a non-directed practice is more of a generalized approach that will integrate whatever randomly occurs (which can be quite profound as well).

 

c) Integration (Vertical Development 2): The point of Wilbers models is their "holonic" build instead of a hierachical one, meaning that any lower stage has to  fit into the higher on for it to become stable - the higher one is dependent on the lower one but not vice versa. Why meditation can do that is because in the state of witnessing (a), you essentially detach from present loops of thinking (b) into a space free of that, which gives rooms for more complex re-situated/integrated thinking to arrive. According to the above mentioned papers we can actually see that in neuronal activity as attractor networks firing independently of each other do not interact and are therefore incompatible (Just as shadow material is incompatible with your identity as a persona). TAGsync forces unrelated attractor networks to fire together which ultimately forces an integration of material as described in (b). Once sufficient complexity has been linked, it will establish a new, stable "holon", or stage of development. I found Wilbers model very accurate when It comes to the content or structure of each stage (like Opaques experience resemble very much that of the Centaur and the transpersonal awareness beyond). According to him, consciousness will self-organise whenever we let it, that means, not cling on to a previous perspective. Meditation and/or it's tuning-version TAGsync trains you exactly doing that imo.

 

As for other NFB modalities: I guess most of the mainstream training Is more like fixing the way your bodymind works a a certain stage. We could correlate this to a very effective form of horizontal integration as making you more stable whereever you are already (like behavioural therapy). I like to believe that his only passively accelerates vertical growth. However the whole practice of biohacking including nfb/nutrition/nootropics has given me a deeper sense of release, at what used to be bothersome symptoms seem to be somewhat in control now. More and more often I find myself not training down a symptom, even though or because I know I could, and because I essentially feel less victim of experience generally. This led to some symptoms increasing slightly again but it bothers me much less than before and i end up often choosing to meditate instead of doing a targeted training, which again makes me worry less... I was able to dissolve even more serious depressive intrusions with an hour of TAGsync and some 5-HTP. Overall I feel great most of the day without medication/etc. It's a question of what you want really, but the uptraining of meditative awareness seems to be much more interesting to me right now than becoming more focused, more driven or whatever (I btw do my daily HEG cycles still). But it's definitely a blessing to be able to chose.

 

Outlook: It appears like we're experimenting with the technologies that really ramp up vertical-ascending development here. Give this some years and you might have a bunch of people here that fully realised. I guess it will all come down to the questions that all spiritual traditions face at their point of blossoming: What about the descend? How will we bring the fruits of transpersonal awareness back into the world where most everybody experiences themselves as locked into their selves?

 

If you're interested in an exchange about your experiences, shoot me a PM. Skype gives alot more ways to express yourself than a forum anyway. Let me say that the dissolving of a peak experience even after years is a very common thing along spiritual practitioners. Happy to hear that HRV-training is helping you already. TAGsync should skyrocket you back there.

 

@Godofsmallthings: Following your suggestion I ended up here on what seems to be a very interesting blog:
http://www.buddhistg...ive-technology/

Edited by VastEmptiness, 25 May 2015 - 08:05 PM.

[VastEmptiness]

On BiPolar training
 

 

 

OpaqueMind: Two approaches which sidestep this problem while producing significant results are BiPolar training and Alpha-Theta(-Gamma)-Synchrony training. In BiPolar NFB you train two cortical areas to operate more independantly of each other, allowing more effective activation patterns to occur, if there was previous over-synchronisation. It helps to think of this brain activity as like playing the piano - if your fingers are too fat for the keys (brain activity too synchronous across certain areas) then the tune you play will be disharmonious. Training de-synchronisation across various frequencies areas teaches the brain to fire only those areas that a task demands, therefore allocating limited resources only where they are required. This gets really funky when you train ultra-low frequencies (0.01-1hz), which are thought to correspond to glial cell control and cerebral autoregulation (the control of cerebral bloodflow). Personally I have found this incredibly effective at improving cognitive flexibility, sleep quality, anxiety which I didn't even know I had, sociability, creativity and perceptual sensitivity, and other things.

@OpaqueMind: Since following your suggestions so far gave me great results, I'd like to try this format as well. However, i would need some more information:

 

1) Which protocol did you use for it? TAGx1? I'm haven't tried that one yet, but it seems counterintuitive to train TAG-synchrony in a bi-polar setup. I'm confused because if i understand you correctly the goal is to de-synchronize areas which is essentially the oppositve of TAGsync? I got some understanding of how bi-polar works from Siegfried Othmer here  but i'm still not quite getting it i think.

2) Which bands do you train and did you asses placements with high synchrony? I know from my QEEG of areas with too high beta-synchrony which i try turning down using the Multiband Coherence Down training, which rewards low coherence on 3 Beta-bands. Or do you actually target the bands we synchronize in TAG?

3) Can you elaborate more about how you use the Q-wiz for ILF training? How do you deal with artifact? It seems to get huge for me at around 1.5hz and below and seems to be incontrollable so far.

The more concrete instructions you could share, the better. Thank you for your contributions as always.

[VastEmptiness]

Hi,

 

Great thread. I was wandering whether you (TAG users) experienced some cognitive enhancement in general or specific area of - so called - intelligence. And whether it helps with verbal (including auditory) working memory (for example when reading) and comprehension. I know that F7/F8 and T5/T6 sites are related to language processing. Has somebody trained these sites?

I didn't train T5 and T6 so far, because the more I go to the back of the head, the more muscle artifact i get (probably due to neck muscle tension). To avoid that you have to find a position for the head that's not always too comfortable. However, as I understand more of brain physiology and my own QEEG, i was working on ways of incorporating the backside of the head as well, which I have done now to good effect. Looks like smaller artifact is no problem to TAGsync training and doesn't even mess with the Coherence Scores (that is, if my QEEG was accurate).

 

For F7 and F8; i trained them thoroughly, usually with T3 and T4 because I had really low synchrony scores there. Getting up Gamma Coherence on those sites feels amazing. I don't know about language processing really because I never had too much trouble with that. The process of language learning skyrocketed for me lately, but this might be due to other modalities I train as well and/or just a normal occurance of the learning curve. Also there was at some point I had a huge shift in my visual processing giving me the "Clean Windshield Effect" that i know from nutritional Ketosis (or Moda) almost all day independent of diet (which combined with ketosis gives me a perception of the world so brilliant, it feels like switching from a shitty old monitor to a retina display.) However, as above, no idea what exactly caused it but i'm pretty sure it's due to NFB.

 

As for improvements in that area, i would definitely recommend a whole brain plan and then target those areas with emphasis (especially if they show some off patterns).

[airplanepeanuts]

Hi,

 

two quick questions: Are there any designs for Bioexplorer that are similar to Tagsync but less expensive or free? I find the price for Tagsync a bit steep. 

Basically I am looking for way to get started with EEG Neurofeedback without spending much (more) money.

 

Second question. Is it possible (and fruitful) to place the eeg electrodes on the forehead and not on a part of the scalp that grows hairs?

 

I am not very keen to put the prep and past on my hair because I am afraid it will irritate the skin there or cause hair loss.

 

Thank you!

[VastEmptiness]

Hi,

 

two quick questions: Are there any designs for Bioexplorer that are similar to Tagsync but less expensive or free? I find the price for Tagsync a bit steep. 

Basically I am looking for way to get started with EEG Neurofeedback without spending much (more) money.

 

Since design is 190$ for TAGx2 and 290$ if you want the other one also (Pretty much everything discussed in this Thread is TAGx2) it shouldn't make that huge of a difference compared to the gear. However, yes, you could build it yourself, which is much easier than one would think (It's really just rewarding peaks on two frequencies at the same time anyway, he put all the info out there) - what you pay for is essentially that he made alot of research to get there, to find out that this simple design might be so useful. And of course market variables.
 

 

Second question. Is it possible (and fruitful) to place the eeg electrodes on the forehead and not on a part of the scalp that grows hairs?

 

I am not very keen to put the prep and past on my hair because I am afraid it will irritate the skin there or cause hair loss.

 

Thank you!

 

Possible yes, but you would lose a majority of possible brain areas to train (really just doing prefortal cortex), so it would be a huge disadvantage compared to full brain training. If you get medical prep and paste there should be no reason for any complications with either hair or scalp. 

[VastEmptiness]

Given some productive hyperactivity induced by strong uptraining of synchrony + ketone bodies + nootropics in my brain, i'll use the opportunity to ask for some more advice/discussion on the topic of synchrony. I've been trying around with diverse ways to reward both synchrony and a-synchrony lately and training various sites with it to very good result (especially with TAGD-sync and gamma-coherence, i just today added beta-desynchronization on specific sites). Getting a more clear understanding of both BioExplorer and how TAGsync function, I'd like to share my thoughts on the design and my variations here.

How does TAGsync work technically?: Inter-band vs. Intra-band Phase Resets
In essence, the original TAGsyncx2 design adds the signals of two channels, bandpass-filters two of the relevant bands out (usually Theta&Alpha or Alpha&Gamma) and now rewards every time the amplitude of both spike above a certain threshold at the same time. Given the high temporal resolution of EEG this is almost real-time. So how does this train synchrony, if we're rewarding spikes in amplitude? Given that were summing up two channels, it is likely, that when a spike occurs, this rise in amplitude is actually coming from both of the channels as in most cases one channel can't produce enough energy to reach the fairly high thresholds. This alone might already train synchrony (or rather repeated zero? phase-difference) within the band across the two sites, given the threshold is set high enough.* However the real magic comes into play, when we add the second band, rewarding every time both spike together therefore creating very close phase-difference (zero?) between bands every time the ring bells:
 

*Note that this means that training amplitudes over several sites might implicitly up-train synchrony as well, which might not be wanted, depending on the band.

What should happen now is that we are training the synchronous activation of for example C1alpha, C2alpha, C1gamma, C2gamma as a conscious skill, which means that a) the practitioner learns to activate at will those parts of the brain producing the frequency simultaneously (which results in easy access to meditative skills as described in this thread) and b) the brain rewires those parts due to long-term-potentiation newly, making their synchronous activity more likely with or without conscious interaction. we could swap the old "neurons that wire together, fire together" into "neurons that fire together (phase reset), wire together (synchrony)." This all lead me to making the adjustments that I've been training with pretty much from the beginning: more channels (4) and more bands (1.5hz-4hz delta, mostly artifact free, lower gets hard) which should enhance, maybe even exponentially, the effects of training. I cannot compare, but ongoing profound experiences are reassuring me so far.

 

What is confusing:

So far so good, seems like TAGsync is training both synchrony within and between bands. However, it doesn't seem that simple: I constantly find that within an hour session of TAGsync while I get all the effects described, the intra-band coherence** as measured by BioExplorer however doesn't increase noticeably within one session. Over time there seems to be changes in some sites and I have the feeling that a session of TAGsync will better the results immensely in a regular Coherence-Uptraining (did several on the Gamma band with very high results). I haven't yet tracked Phase Difference but I guess it always goes to 0, when we create a Phase Reset? This then might be an alternative to the way we reward too.

**(Afaik we cannot measure inter-band coherence, if I am correct, so no data on that. Please correct me here if i'm mistaken as I would really like to measure that easily!)

 

This leads me to the idea, that we are really only training short bursts of synchronous activity (the meditative skill), which might be a prerequisite for synchrony in the form of coherence (alignment of the amplitudes over time, if i'm not mistaken) but no guarantee. The designs were built on the findings on synchrony in meditators, no? What kind of synchrony are we talking about here? Phase Difference? Or really coherence within bands over time? If it is the latter then I'm on the right path combining the TAGsync training with serious uptraining of Coherence with other designs.

Please let me know your thoughts/knowledge on this. I don't doubt the efficacy of TAGsync one bit, it's just that I would really like to understand the mechanisms behind how the f* were getting so good results with this.

The problem of threshold

A further interesting question is that of threshold. We can set it either somewhat low (say 70%, rewarding when both combined amplitudes reach their top 30% of activity), giving rise to a somewhat constant reward even on smaller phase resets, but having the brain in a constant feedback- (and that is learning-) loop. If we really want to learn to produce the big ones at will, we will have to sacrifice time spend learning (just sitting in silence no idea where we going, feels somewhat like walking around blind really), but we make sure those that we get are somewhat bigger. From my own experience, easier thresholds get me into deep meditation quicker (like a constant walking the path), however looking for the big ones (like >90%) works as well. The latter was easily confirmed when i recently spent two hours of meditating in the hospitals waiting room (waiting for my friend) without any gear whatsoever and had one of the most profound meditative experiences of my life. That is after not meditating without technological assistance for a year. Seems like transference is no issue here.

Solution1: Of course, making it a ladder-type reward. We could for example make the bell ring in rising volume or pitch in three steps (say 66%, 85% and 95%), which allows for constant but more differentiated learning and maybe even a more conscious control of amplitudes. I'll be trying this approach first and report back.

Solution 2: What would be a more differentiated way to reward is to actually track intra-band resets (activation of all 4 channels in each band), counting the activations. Therefore giving a minor reward when only Alpha syncs, but giving a higher, when Alpha, Theta and Gamma sync. And maybe multiplying this by threshold reached to put out a volume or something.

Edited by VastEmptiness, 27 May 2015 - 11:11 PM.

[VastEmptiness]

Building on what I just discussed here, I have built up on the Coherence designs as well. For example for Gamma 38-42hz Coherence on 4 Channels i reward now:

- Intra-band Phase-Resets, when 3 Channels or all 4 Channels spike (louder), which takes a conscious effort.

- A pleasant sound whenever the Coherence reaches the goal and is in Phase-Difference of -50 to +50 for each channel.

- A gambling-machine type score-sound when all goals are met.

 

Why? Giving above thoughts, this should up-train coherence much faster. So far I'm getting very promising results, especially after TAGsync. What is even more of an advantage to this, is that I can take this time now meditating eyes open in effort to get the gamme-phase resets, which I think is a time much better spent than watching some video-feedback.

 

Today I've been also trying around with a similar reward for the Beta-Coherence Down (Desynchronization) and ended up with the following in trying to find the opposite of the Phase Reset to further differentiate my beta bands.

 

- I track 16 Amplitudes (SMR, Beta1, Beta2, Beta3 x 4 Channels)

- I threshold top 25% so far.

- I reward every time (almost instant, 100ms) just one channel peaks.

- The regular Coherence-Down rewards are running in the background, producing pleasant sounds.

 

With 25% this is still fairly often and pretty much outside of conscious control, so it's still a very passive design, which I combine with a video-reward.

 

What do you guys think, does this make any sense in improving independence of beta activity both within and between bands? Also what threshold is a good idea? Maybe the more mathematic thinkers out here can help me there.

[airplanepeanuts]

Thanks, VE. 

I guess it would be possible to build it myself. But it would be quite lot of work to understand the bioexplorer objects in full detail...

 

I just noticed that there is a free design on the mindsupplies web site: TAGx2 2 Channel EEG test file

 

This seems to be somewhat close to the real thing. I tried to configure it as described at the beginning of this thread and noticed it has no Tone Generator though.

Is there information what the purpose of this test version is?  Or could you check out for me what the retail version offers that this test version doesn't? 

 

[VastEmptiness]

Thanks, VE. 

I guess it would be possible to build it myself. But it would be quite lot of work to understand the bioexplorer objects in full detail...

 

I just noticed that there is a free design on the mindsupplies web site: TAGx2 2 Channel EEG test file

 

This seems to be somewhat close to the real thing. I tried to configure it as described at the beginning of this thread and noticed it has no Tone Generator though.

Is there information what the purpose of this test version is?  Or could you check out for me what the retail version offers that this test version doesn't? 

 

the file is a playback file, you can basicly look at how somebody else trained with the protocol too see it in action. it's the full protocol i think. the interesting part is that you can still access the signal diagram - i.e. see the whole wiring of the design. so you couldn't train with it, but use it as a source of "perfect inspiration". but as i said, the design is worth it's money either way. there will be a time in the near future where most training modalities will have free alternatives anyway. i guess you can't copyright something like the reward of two amplitude thresholds at the same time and since the copyleft generation will jump on NFB sooner or later, that's where it's going. free access to information, datasets, etc. however the reality right now is, that many of the "original" generation are trying (rightfully so) to make a living with NFB and that includes selling designs. things are gonna change though. i think for example crowstream created a somewhat accurate copy of the biocybernaut design - and hey, they charge 15.000$ to train you with it for a week

Edited by VastEmptiness, 28 May 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[Jochen]

some of my initial quick feedback after about a week of playing around.

 

First of all I have ordered the package through brain-trainer and then ordered the software through tagsync.

 

Both Pete's team and Douglas are really great!

 

I have had the pleasure of talking with Douglas a few times and he is truly a fountain of knowledge. It's really nice to bounce around ideas with him.

His work starts to become academically recognised so I bet we will hear more from him on that front soon. As soon as I have more information I will post it as well.

 

My initial Tagsync sessions were fun. I am not doing these sessions completely inward as some of you are. I actually read, review research, ... while doing some sessions. (obviously not moving to minimise the artifact storm)

 

I do try to have a few meditative sessions in between as well. My take is that my brain needs to modulate itself in diffuse as well as focus mode.

Having done meditation practice for quite some time assists in this I guess.

 

At the moment I am mainly doing TAGx2 on the Pz/Cz/Fz/C3/C4 and my brain has gotten a nice handle of it after 3 sessions. The electro-cap I have is quite handy I find, less hassle with electrodes. Downside is that you can only use the main 10/20 sites.

 

That said, I can't wait for more progress and 4 channel wickedness :-)

 

I am also looking for some synergy by using LLLT (3 times per week in the evening) and taking a PDE5i immediately after my TAGsync session to improve the consolidation.

I will definitely report anything I find on that front.

 

If people have any pointers for the TAGx4 including some nice recommended tunes, ... that would really be appreciated.

 

question: Douglas mentions that the Tagsync adaptation protocol starts using the electrodes to the left and right of the central one after a period of 10-15 minutes. (this means if you are training FZ/PZ at some point you will start training F3/F4 and P3/P4).

Since he doesn't have experience with the electro-cap I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on how this works with the QWiz, bioexplorer and the electro-cap.

In the Qwiz 'wizard' you have to specifiy per channel what you are training. So my assumption is that you should switch this manually, but I am not sure.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

 

Well that's it for now, but why don't we schedule a hangout which we can record etc so we can all learn from each other a bit more dynamically :-).

 

[VastEmptiness]

welcome on board. very interesting what you're going for.  i'll be trying around with at-task designs in the future as well. probably starting with gamma and multiband-coherence designs alongside some squishing of low and promoting of smr/beta. wide thresholds and some sort of constant feedback that you can always center back into while for example reading. binaural beats leading to gamma/hialpha/etc.

 

tagsync might be an option too, but i rather use it in a meditative setting. very interested in what results you'll be getting. do you do the whole brain plan and HEG too?

 

question: Douglas mentions that the Tagsync adaptation protocol starts using the electrodes to the left and right of the central one after a period of 10-15 minutes. (this means if you are training FZ/PZ at some point you will start training F3/F4 and P3/P4).

Since he doesn't have experience with the electro-cap I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on how this works with the QWiz, bioexplorer and the electro-cap.

In the Qwiz 'wizard' you have to specifiy per channel what you are training. So my assumption is that you should switch this manually, but I am not sure.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

 

i was thinking of this, as it makes sense to link alot of neurons and then link those already linked again to another point, working your way through the brain. however what i did so far is cycle between sites and do long sessions (mostly EC meditation), so i would only do one placement in a session which of course has alot of advantages for depth of meditation.

as for the electro cap, yes you'll have to do that manually and the same way you selected the sites in the first place. i guess you did that in the firmware window that pops up when you connect the wiz to bioexplorer.

 

 

 

If people have any pointers for the TAGx4 including some nice recommended tunes, ... that would really be appreciated.

tunes for meditation or do you mean binaural beats? and what do you mean by pointers?

Edited by VastEmptiness, 09 June 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Jochen]

VastEmptiness, thanks for the welcome and your input! Really appreciate it.

 

welcome on board. very interesting what you're going for.  i'll be trying around with at-task designs in the future as well. probably starting with gamma and multiband-coherence designs alongside some squishing of low and promoting of smr/beta. wide thresholds and some sort of constant feedback that you can always center back into while for example reading. binaural beats leading to gamma/hialpha/etc.

 

tagsync might be an option too, but i rather use it in a meditative setting. very interested in what results you'll be getting. do you do the whole brain plan and HEG too?

 

 

I have done a lot of CES and Binaural beats while on tasks for a few years now. For Instance sometimes I zip through 100's of emails on high Gamma or I use Alpha quite often for learning.

Delta / Theta was typically done for my meditation sessions.

 

Will see how much of a synergy I can get with TAG and my meditation. I assume there to be a lot.

 

How long do you typically do your meditations while 'hooked' up?

I assume you are closing your eyes and just let your mind observe the sounds etc, so just observe without judgement as the cliche goes? :-)

 

 

 

 

If people have any pointers for the TAGx4 including some nice recommended tunes, ... that would really be appreciated.

tunes for meditation or do you mean binaural beats? and what do you mean by pointers?

 

With this I mean if people have experience with the 4 Channel TAG (settings, recommendations, ...) . I have received one profile through OpaqueMind, but I am not sure how to properly run it yet. In that profile there are a lot of reward, etc sounds I assume to assist with the meditation and NF.

Binary beats would kind of defeat the purpose I think :-)

 

So any information on the TAGx4 (or even a .bxd file) would be greatly appreciated.

 

[VastEmptiness]

If you go back the last couple of pages i tried to explain how the TAGsync design works and also gave information on bands that i train with successfully. There isn't one x4 design, they're all custom made, so no idea how exactly that one is that you're using. The only relevant reward is the Phase Reset (chime bell), anything may be added value (I tend to add quite alot, but i'm still experimenting alot). From my experience hooking up several bands together (I'm doing 5 right now) has a stronger effect than just 2.

I used this soundscape:  in addition to the HoloSync (rainish) binaural beats to good effect. But really any that you like should do good (Look for if they contain binaural beats, you don't want several at once or some weird frequency). Right now i either use my own brainwaves as a melody (constant piano feedback) or meditate in silence which I start to like more and more as I get better at controlling breath etc.

 

I tend to do one hour EC if i don't have an appointment. Sometimes more, up to 1:30. Most intense sensations seem to occur around 20-40 minutes, so any amount is beneficial. I like to give it some 10 or 20 minutes afterwards doing EO, rewarding gamma coherence and gamma phase resets for added transferability to everyday life. Gamma COH goes flying usually, which I like to see.

[airplanepeanuts]

Some random thoughts about Tagsync and eeg biofeedback in general:

 

First of all I read in the q-wiz manual that using prep is not required with the machine because of it's high quality. I think that's great because applying the electrodes is more convenient without the prep.

 

I have done two sessions of Tagsync so far, so I am still figuring stuff out. So phase resets are the main reward of the protocol. If I'm not mistaken this means that both 

theta and alpha are above the upper threshold at the same time (also the other frequencies are not too high). The quite reward means that both signals are above the lower threshold. This is fairly similar to the phase reset but it's about the lower thresholds.

 

My limited experience with the lower threshold is that when I set them pretty low so that it's quite most of the time (say 80%) my average in the signal drops as opposed to a more challenging setting. 

 

Would it make sense to connect the band signals to the frequency of a tone generator to have a direct feedback of the signal than thresholds?

 

I hope this not too random, at least the information about the prep might be useful

 

 

 

[Bobity]

question: Douglas mentions that the Tagsync adaptation protocol starts using the electrodes to the left and right of the central one after a period of 10-15 minutes. (this means if you are training FZ/PZ at some point you will start training F3/F4 and P3/P4).

Since he doesn't have experience with the electro-cap I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on how this works with the QWiz, bioexplorer and the electro-cap.

In the Qwiz 'wizard' you have to specifiy per channel what you are training. So my assumption is that you should switch this manually, but I am not sure.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

 

Well that's it for now, but why don't we schedule a hangout which we can record etc so we can all learn from each other a bit more dynamically :-).

 

Karen Duncan directed me to :

 

 

which allows you to override the Q-Wiz Multiplexor to get a set of points that are not built in.

 

Interesting to see your just starting out - me too

 

[Bobity]

I finally got my Q-Wiz last Wednesday evening - after waiting nearly 2 months.  I did a session with Douglas Daily which was excellent and got me started with TAGsync.  I also did a session with Karen Duncan @ Braintrainer.  Getting the opportunity to work with such people at the beginning is invaluable and I’m sure will save me countless hours of struggle and uncertainty.  I’m looking forward to further sessions to deepen my skill, knowledge & understanding.

 

I think that anyone looking to start doing nfb should not under estimate the enormous amount of stuff you need to learn to do this.

 

I qualify this with the fact that I've bought  TAGsync, HEG, TLC7ap,  a CAP,  Brain Trainer designs... so there is a lot of completely new material here to get to know.

 

Not to mention artifacts (electical noise - eeg is measured in millionths of volts and so is extremely susceptible to interference) :

It can take some time to find setups and location where this interference is minimal (unplugging the laptop helps reduce noise lot), 

It takes a while to figure out how to use the CAP with the Electro-Gel and prep & electrode paste for the ear electrodes,  so that there is a good signal at each eeg site,

Its taken me several goes to get a good set of measurements for a TLC7 assessment – I’m still not quite there yet but each attempt gets a little better and my confidence is starting to grow. 

 

Then there is the nfb itself.  The HEG is fairly straightforward Karen recommends starting with this - Pete provides some hints on how to focus and wide focus in some vids.

 

nfb itself appears to me like trying to ride a bicycle with reverse handlebars in a multidimensional space - seemingly impossible but with curiosity, patience and persistence - & you need plenty of each for this whole trip by the way - the levels somehow begin to go the way they should.  Don't know how this happens.  Like learning to ride a bike or like a baby flailing around suddenly finds its thumb in its mouth and then loses it and finds it and loses it...

 

I’ve found the Braintrainer web site invaluably practical for their free youtube trainings and also for their two introductory paid for trainings on finding sites & placing electrodes.  I watched all of these at least a couple of times to try and get the hang of this initially alien territory,  while waiting for my Q-Wiz to arrive.  

 

So far I’ve done 3 HEG sessions and 6 TAGsync sessions and an ALP1C Alpha Theta.  It feels pretty good.  A little like when I first started floating and coming out of the tank and the world was newer – with little tingles up the spine and a growing sense of falling – the sense of free fall that accompanied an awakening episode several years ago.  Douglas says his goal for TAGsync is to wake people up – if it continues like this and from the comments of others here I’d say he’s meeting his goal.     

[Crowstream]

 

 

Would it make sense to connect the band signals to the frequency of a tone generator to have a direct feedback of the signal than thresholds?

 

 

 

 

Yes, in fact I think it makes it way easier...using the quiet reward was a bit frustrating for me, I wanted more immediate feedback to learn these brainwave states faster so I started experimenting with things like that. A frequency tone generator works I think, but it is a bit annoying to listen to. I think it is better to use an audio file of some sound that you like, preferably some kind of meditation sound and then connecting the theta or alpha (or both) signals to the volume of the file.

[Bobity]

 

 

 

Would it make sense to connect the band signals to the frequency of a tone generator to have a direct feedback of the signal than thresholds?

 

 

 

 

Yes, in fact I think it makes it way easier...using the quiet reward was a bit frustrating for me, I wanted more immediate feedback to learn these brainwave states faster so I started experimenting with things like that. A frequency tone generator works I think, but it is a bit annoying to listen to. I think it is better to use an audio file of some sound that you like, preferably some kind of meditation sound and then connecting the theta or alpha (or both) signals to the volume of the file.

 

 

[Bobity]

I like the sound of this @airplanpeanuts.  @Crowstream do you know if in BioExplorer you could use an mp3 such that you have the left mp3 channel volume respond to Alpha say and the right mp3 respond to Theta ?  

[Crowstream]

@Bobity

I know the tone generator has the option of left and right (dont know if it works or not), but the mp3 for some reason does not, that would have been a cool feature  . From what I have seen it does not seem like Bioexplorer is being developed much anymore, I havent seen any updates to fix things like that...

[Jochen]

 

Karen Duncan directed me to :

 

 

which allows you to override the Q-Wiz Multiplexor to get a set of points that are not built in.

 

Interesting to see your just starting out - me too

 

 

 

Thanks a bunch for that. Missed that video somehow :-).

 

If you are wondering how to properly clean your electro-cap, this is an excerpt I have received from the electro-cap company.

Attached Files

•  CLEANING INSTR. - INSTR. MANUAL.pdf   514.73KB   9 downloads