34 replies to this topic

[agwoodliffe]

A very controversial topic indeed. Maybe even pointless. It's more out of curiosity.

I read a post on another forum earlier today with a guy with ADHD saying that, although he had trouble with focus & concentration, when under stress (ie. the last minute before the shit hit the fan) he was able to hyperfocus, which got him through school with flying colours.

 

Also, people with Depression seem to have a superior intelligence regarding understanding emotions & behaviour. Can be good for sales, as they are able to put people at ease.

 

The benefits associated with Bipolar disorder have been long since documented, so there's no need for me to go there.

 

I'm not so sure about Schizophrenia, as that is the least studied problem on my part.

 

THAT IS NOT TO SAY any of these disorders should go untreated. 

I'm merely suggesting that these 'skills' are the additional benefits they will have picked up along the way.

[Gerrans]

I think people would rather be happy than have these benefits. What is the point in being able to write poetry like Sylvia Plath and dying in your twenties? I have never suffered from depression or mental illness, and I count my blessings every day, because I have known too many people who do.

[penisbreath]

I've dwelled on this quite a bit. I'm not really sure I can make any kind of case for the inattentive ADD having advantages. It's a tremendous impairment. Perhaps there is an increase in creative associations/thinking because focus is quite divergent, but being unable to harness that energy in a stable, constructive way is a pain. Clearly there are people (film directors, novelists etc.) who possess strong creative capacities, in addition to high intelligence and a stable attention span.

[Dichotohmy]

The benefits of mental illness, if it's actually clinically significant and pervasive mental illness, are nothing more than a shit-colored silver lining when calculated as a sum along with the detrimental effects. 

 

Anhedonia leaves me fearless and without real worries or concerns, but it takes away the very essence of being human. ADHD makes me more creative and also cool under pressure, but makes it really difficult to be a functioning adult. I could go on an one with the examples, but the cost:benefit ratio of serious mental illness has always rightfully been seen in such a way that the mental illness is a burden. 

[goodman]

schizophrenia can be entertaining in a boring life

[FeelsNumbMan]

I don't know. I'd love to say depression could be a blessing in disguise, to really teach you the meaning of "not taking things for granted".

 

But it would only a blessing if we were ever to get out of it.

[Ruinmir]

I think I agree with FeelsNumbMan, if you can get treatment and move past it, you may be stronger because of it. I tend to think that difficult experiences are opportunities to grow and learn something. But if it goes untreated or ignored it won't be a net positive.

[factsmachine]

So anhedonia makes one not really care what they do? I do some really dumb things sometimes, few things give me pleasure. I have no fear for losing my life. I have no fear of taking somebody elses life. Perhaps, that was an evolved survival mechanism.

[ovecta]

I don't know. I'd love to say depression could be a blessing in disguise, to really teach you the meaning of "not taking things for granted".

 

But it would only a blessing if we were ever to get out of it.

 

Very true, I have had Dysthymia for years, I was always reluctant to seek help and just considered low mood in my nature, until about 3 months ago when the symptoms gradually became worse and I could no long face seeing friends or colleagues and no longer found any enjoyment in music or sports as I once did.

The final straw was when I started noticing my thoughts becoming more suicidal and even nonchalantly rationalizing on them, I went to a doctor and he offered me both Lexapro and CBT sessions.

It's been almost a month into the treatment and I am lost for words on the change so far, I am so much more grateful for everything I have and I wake up every morning with a sense of excitement I've never felt before, I'm amazed at just how many aspects of my life were negatively effected my depression and I no longer take anything for granted.

I have yet to start CBT but I feel like the gradual changes I'm experiencing on Lexapro are sufficient to get me into remission.

[Pallas]

I remember a bit from Joe Rogan's podcast, and it made a lot of sense.

 

In this society, people who are mentally disturbed are deemed unfit for the normal function of things and hence are medicated to become "normal" agian.

 

However in Shamanistic cultures, those who are mentally disturbed often are seen as more enlightened and thus usually become trained to be a shaman. 

 

 

[Son of Perdition]

some very creative people, and a lot of artists had severe schizotypical disorder..so this does not surprise me. usually intellectuals are bordering on the edge of insane.~

Edited by Son of Perdition, 01 November 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[xEva]

I think people would rather be happy than have these benefits. What is the point in being able to write poetry like Sylvia Plath and dying in your twenties? I have never suffered from depression or mental illness, and I count my blessings every day, because I have known too many people who do.

Most people experience falls within narrow constrains of what is considered a 'norm'. Bipolar lows are certainly bad, but what about the highs? A normal person needs to get high on coke and whatnot to catch a glimpse of what a 'sufferer' experiences during his manic episodes. ..the ecstasy when it seems the world was created just for him, or when he feels he knows the mind of God. I say, the wider the range, the more interesting the experience.

[ovecta]

 

I think people would rather be happy than have these benefits. What is the point in being able to write poetry like Sylvia Plath and dying in your twenties? I have never suffered from depression or mental illness, and I count my blessings every day, because I have known too many people who do.

Most people experience falls within narrow constrains of what is considered a 'norm'. Bipolar lows are certainly bad, but what about the highs? A normal person needs to get high on coke and whatnot to catch a glimpse of what a 'sufferer' experiences during his manic episodes. ..the ecstasy when it seems the world was created just for him, or when he feels he knows the mind of God. I say, the wider the range, the more interesting the experience.

 

I've heard of some bipolar patients spending large amount money during manic phases which could lead to financial ruin, I remember watching Stephen Fry's documentary on his own experiences with bipolar disorder, he has made it clear that his condition has been a big factor in his success, but he has attempted suicide multiple times when in the depression phase, he has openly said he would not take medication to control it as he sees it as part of his character.

Watch  https://www.youtube....h?v=rGDl6-lyfMY at 4:00 and there is a perfect example of someone who's life isn't exactly perfect as a result of being in a constant manic phase; Carrie Fisher.

 

I still feel incredibly grateful for everything I have now with each day I'm getting out of depression one little step at a time, I have a much greater tolerance and understanding for mental illness and wish that there wasn't such a stigma attached to it.

 

I made a promise to myself that when I'm better I will devote free time as a volunteer student mentor to students just starting university and maybe finding it tough to adjust to being away from home, if I could help just one person it would have been all worth it.

Edited by ovecta, 02 November 2014 - 04:03 AM.

[jaiho]

definitely have noticed benefits from my depression.

Mostly the complete elimination of anxiety. I haven't felt a tingle in my gut for probably 3 years.

The positives of that makes work/interacting with new people effortless. I have definitely felt i've become more intelligent because im not hindered by my environment. hyper focus.

 

The downside, i don't care at all about said interactions. Cannot form emotional connection with people. cannot fall in love/maintain a relationship.

I became my ex i think. Sociopathic tenancies, but not.

 

Edited by jaiho, 02 November 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[eon]

The benefits depends on what you do with it, whether you are a creative type (music, acting, writing, etc.) or anything else. Most of the pioneers in a lot of different fields are said to have been mentally ill. I think it is beneficial because you aren't like the rest. The mentally ill think differently. It may be burdensome to the mentally ill, but the "normal ones" could only wish they came up with the craziest ideas. 

 

"Despite the irrational behaviour, OCD is associated with high verbal IQ."

 

 

[eon]

perhaps in the modern world, being mentally ill may not be too beneficial unless you are financially well off. Back in the old days before there was such as thing as "financial ruins", I guess people simply lived better then not having to worry about where the next paycheck will come from. The pioneers, the founders, etc. weren't really worried about such financial ruin as there wasn't any such thing. In this modern world, you go crazy, you end up in the streets. You act crazy, you go to jail. Back in the old days people sailed across seas, took lands, tested drugs on humans, so they can advance. Very crazy and they end up leaders and pioneers. I think being mentally ill has its hidden benefits, it's just it's not accepted in society or it gets look down upon.

 

There are newer terms in psychology that won't even make it in the books because they sound crazy or taboo or racist, but if you do look those up, such crazy ideas start making sense because the "crazies" came up with it. Almost every idea is deemed crazy at first till it starts making sense and to fruition.

 

 

 

 

I think people would rather be happy than have these benefits. What is the point in being able to write poetry like Sylvia Plath and dying in your twenties? I have never suffered from depression or mental illness, and I count my blessings every day, because I have known too many people who do.

Most people experience falls within narrow constrains of what is considered a 'norm'. Bipolar lows are certainly bad, but what about the highs? A normal person needs to get high on coke and whatnot to catch a glimpse of what a 'sufferer' experiences during his manic episodes. ..the ecstasy when it seems the world was created just for him, or when he feels he knows the mind of God. I say, the wider the range, the more interesting the experience.

 

I've heard of some bipolar patients spending large amount money during manic phases which could lead to financial ruin, I remember watching Stephen Fry's documentary on his own experiences with bipolar disorder, he has made it clear that his condition has been a big factor in his success, but he has attempted suicide multiple times when in the depression phase, he has openly said he would not take medication to control it as he sees it as part of his character.

Watch  https://www.youtube....h?v=rGDl6-lyfMY at 4:00 and there is a perfect example of someone who's life isn't exactly perfect as a result of being in a constant manic phase; Carrie Fisher.

 

I still feel incredibly grateful for everything I have now with each day I'm getting out of depression one little step at a time, I have a much greater tolerance and understanding for mental illness and wish that there wasn't such a stigma attached to it.

 

I made a promise to myself that when I'm better I will devote free time as a volunteer student mentor to students just starting university and maybe finding it tough to adjust to being away from home, if I could help just one person it would have been all worth it.

 

 

Edited by eon, 02 November 2014 - 07:51 AM.

[Major Legend]

I've dwelled on this quite a bit. I'm not really sure I can make any kind of case for the inattentive ADD having advantages. It's a tremendous impairment. Perhaps there is an increase in creative associations/thinking because focus is quite divergent, but being unable to harness that energy in a stable, constructive way is a pain. Clearly there are people (film directors, novelists etc.) who possess strong creative capacities, in addition to high intelligence and a stable attention span.

 

I resonate with this piece so much that I had to write a post...yes. Its becoming clearer and clearer that all cognitive functions are interrelated, that better is just = better, that there are clearly people who are gifted in all areas, and people who are "slacking" in all areas.

 

This idea that the brain trades abilities e.g. you are good at one thing and not good with another just isn't really true. For example I have found some people simply seem to be on perpetual rocket fuel all day long, whilst others can't ever even feel awake.

 

I think mental dysfunction may gift you with abilities beyond other people, in the way that "super creativity" is a form of cognitive mutation, and -

 

also just by being different and having experienced pain and suffering make them (and me) much more empathetic to other people that suffer on a daily basis, this usually gives broader insight, similiar to self-made (street smarts) vs inherited wealth (just education and no challenging experiences).

 

I feel the normal person, think he or she is invincible because he or she has never experienced daily suffering. I don't mean bad things happening, I mean literally SUFFERING DAY IN DAY OUT, like those with neurological disorders, those with chronic illnesses, those with disabilities, those with major depression. I think most healthy people simply have LITTLE IDEA of what it feels like to be stuck in that perpetual suffering.

 

Of course like lucky.pierre says, there is simply no reason to believe that talent is absolutely related to mental ilnesses, for most people mental ilnesses is more a barrier to expression and life quality rather than an aid. Anybody really suffering from anxiety, depression, ADHD can tell you that, whilst its true the way their minds work probably mean they have interesting insights, usually the mental illness stops them from expressing themselves or using that talent.

 

On the other hand you have people like Nolan, Jobs, Gates, Disney, Cameron, LiFung brothers so on and so forth that are clearly talented and don't have any of these problems. Also certainly i've met people who have mental illnesses who have no particular talents too.

 

Are these super succesful geniuses eccentric, emotional, or misunderstood - highly likely, but do they suffer from ravaging mental illnesses that stop them living normally - unlikely.

Edited by Major Legend, 02 November 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[eon]

No one knows what Nolan, Jobs, Gates, Disney etc. really had. They would never disclose it, they aren't attention whores like Amanda Bynes. Just because they have no admitted diagnosis doesn't mean they have no underlying mental illness (undiagnosed). Almost every leader has some narcissistic personality disorder. They just had to be, it's part of being the leader.

 

What would you consider a genius? Robin Williams was considered a genius and mentally ill. Does one need to create a spaceship to be a genius or what? Does one need to make a mass impact? Right? In other words, the masses need to buy into it. Much like how Adolf Hitler came to power, the masses bought into his "genius". 

 

Kurt Cobain was considered ADHD and or bipolar and he is considered a genius when his chords are like 3 or 4 only and his lyrics sometimes made no sense, yet it made rock revolution. Genius? It depends who you ask. I like Nirvana's music. Why isn't the producer or the record company be considered a genius, they all had part of it as a team.

 

If Robin Williams or Kurt Cobain never made it to the mainstream, would they be considered as just mentally ills who did nothing? Their managers also had part with their successes. Who determines who is a genius? The masses?

Edited by eon, 02 November 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Major Legend]

No one knows what Nolan, Jobs, Gates, Disney etc. really had. They would never disclose it, they aren't attention whores like Amanda Bynes. Just because they have no admitted diagnosis doesn't mean they have no underlying mental illness (undiagnosed). Almost every leader has some narcissistic personality disorder. They just had to be, it's part of being the leader.

 

Can I guess? They have/had small doses eccentricity, bipolarism, dark thoughts and some narcissm/psychopathy comes to mind, but all these disorders are on a spectrum.

 

I have never met anybody who has successfully utilized their talents to be actually defined as mentally ill. For example having dark thoughts is very different to actually being unable to feel good, or feel anything a major hallmark of depression.

 

Also the leaders I have encountered with ADHD behaviour are some of the worst leaders/managers ever,) it certainly doesn't have much benefits in most situations.

 

Proponents of ADHD as an advantage quote improved creativity, ability to wear different hats. I now disagree...

 

Creativity is useless unless you can train it (e.g. becoming good in drawing), this discipline requires non-adhd attributes by default. ADHD people are hyper and can come up with hundreds of ideas but then they are unable to focus on any of them to bear them to fruition. Ability to wear different hats in ADHD only applies in an abstract way, by definition since ADHD brains lack executive function, they are actually UNABLE to switch between different tasks according to their needs/requirements. This means they find it really hard to play a game for 30 minutes and stop to work, then go for a break later again, and then switch to cleaning the house, etc, then switch to looking at the stock market. Since they lack self regulatory executive function, they actually just do one thing again and again until something manages to pull them away from it and lure them into another thing.

[Major Legend]

 

What would you consider a genius? Robin Williams was considered a genius and mentally ill. Does one need to create a spaceship to be a genius or what? Does one need to make a mass impact? Right?

 

Kurt Cobain was considered ADHD and or bipolar and he is considered a genius when his chords are like 3 or 4 only and his lyrics sometimes made no sense, yet it made rock revolution. Genius? It depends who you ask. I like Nirvana's music. Why isn't the producer or the record company be considered a genius, they all had part of it as a team.

 

If Robin Williams or Kurt Cobain never made it to the mainstream, would they be considered as just mentally ills who did nothing? Their managers also had part with their successes. Who determines who is a genius? The masses?

 

 

Right. I think I was over stereotyping.

 

Yes I agree you can't really hard "define" a genius, in a way genius is just the way the press presents certain people. Most geniuses will in fact go through their lives unoticed or unmentioned. Also yeah, we don't really know what goes on behind the scenes of these people, completely true. However I have enough life experience to say with 100% certainty, there are just as many unsuccesful people with mental illnesses as there are succesful people with mental illnesses, and many very talented people who have no mental ilnesses for sure.

 

I already mentioned just by having mental illnesses "opens your mind" which explains why many good songwriters/artists seem to have that predisposition, but I believe if you look at MIT graduates you would find very little mental illness.

 

I was trying to counter the point of "hidden benefits of mental illnesses", to confer a benefit you must be able to work backwards and say that having mental illness will give you access to certain mental/cognitive benefits. What I am saying is such evidence doesn't exist.

 

For example, spinning your point around - perhaps these famous people are probably talented whether they have the mental ilness or not. Also people's mental health changes over time, who is to say that these famous people don't develop these problems later? e.g robin williams had parkinsons and was in his 60s, he also feels like he has run into a psychological dead end, these are cofounding factors. A huge reason for his suicide maybe his fear of not being talented anymore due to parkinsons.

Edited by Major Legend, 02 November 2014 - 08:44 AM.

[eon]

OK so creativity is useless unless some major label shoves up the music into everyone's throat then it becomes genius (Nirvana). In other words someone needs to exploit the "genius" til it picks up steam and it becomes legendary? Had Nirvana not been on a major label with music video or FM radio budget, would the band have picked up steam and become revolutionary? In other words the masses play a part on who becomes a genius. Cell phones are genius ideas and the masses think it is because the masses use it. 3D printing is a genius idea, but the masses still hasn't picked up on it til it stars building them new cars and houses, then only it becomes real genius.

[medievil]

Hello

[Galaxyshock]

Interesting post about John Nash's view on mental illness

 

http://web.archive.o...mind-on-strike/

[penisbreath]

 

I've dwelled on this quite a bit. I'm not really sure I can make any kind of case for the inattentive ADD having advantages. It's a tremendous impairment. Perhaps there is an increase in creative associations/thinking because focus is quite divergent, but being unable to harness that energy in a stable, constructive way is a pain. Clearly there are people (film directors, novelists etc.) who possess strong creative capacities, in addition to high intelligence and a stable attention span.

 

I resonate with this piece so much that I had to write a post...yes. Its becoming clearer and clearer that all cognitive functions are interrelated, that better is just = better, that there are clearly people who are gifted in all areas, and people who are "slacking" in all areas.

 

This idea that the brain trades abilities e.g. you are good at one thing and not good with another just isn't really true. For example I have found some people simply seem to be on perpetual rocket fuel all day long, whilst others can't ever even feel awake.

 

I think mental dysfunction may gift you with abilities beyond other people, in the way that "super creativity" is a form of cognitive mutation, and -

 

also just by being different and having experienced pain and suffering make them (and me) much more empathetic to other people that suffer on a daily basis, this usually gives broader insight, similiar to self-made (street smarts) vs inherited wealth (just education and no challenging experiences).

 

I feel the normal person, think he or she is invincible because he or she has never experienced daily suffering. I don't mean bad things happening, I mean literally SUFFERING DAY IN DAY OUT, like those with neurological disorders, those with chronic illnesses, those with disabilities, those with major depression. I think most healthy people simply have LITTLE IDEA of what it feels like to be stuck in that perpetual suffering.

 

Of course like lucky.pierre says, there is simply no reason to believe that talent is absolutely related to mental ilnesses, for most people mental ilnesses is more a barrier to expression and life quality rather than an aid. Anybody really suffering from anxiety, depression, ADHD can tell you that, whilst its true the way their minds work probably mean they have interesting insights, usually the mental illness stops them from expressing themselves or using that talent.

 

On the other hand you have people like Nolan, Jobs, Gates, Disney, Cameron, LiFung brothers so on and so forth that are clearly talented and don't have any of these problems. Also certainly i've met people who have mental illnesses who have no particular talents too.

 

Are these super succesful geniuses eccentric, emotional, or misunderstood - highly likely, but do they suffer from ravaging mental illnesses that stop them living normally - unlikely.

 

 

Sorry I'm quite tired, and can't address this properly but I think you raise some interesting points. A lot of it probably depends on the context of a person's life, and suffering is not always the direct resultant of mental illness. There are probably general circumstances -- social isolation, a perception that one is 'different' etc. -- that contribute to the need to express oneself creatively, but this can also emerge from just the general fabric of emotional experiences .. heartbreak, loss etc. 

 

What's more, there are those who *DO* have genuinely disabling conditions, like David Foster Wallace who suffered from bipolar, but when medicated, I assume possessed working executive functions .. (though he was on Nardil, who knows what the course of his life would've been like if he'd been stuck on the crap they dish out today). 

 

But I think ADD (particularly inattentive) is its own curse .. or maybe I just feel that way because I suffer from it. It isn't just poor executive function; it's a poverty of thought as well, which I think is often underappreciated. I was always told I had a particular gift for writing, but I found it so hard to *generate* thoughts/ideas/content; everything I did always felt like some small fragment or an idea, which I could never really build upon. Even though my writing days are far behind me, it's created a lot of philosophical probing about whether my 'true' self is the one who can write well, but thinks slowly, inefficiently etc., or the one in an 'ideal' world with everything unchanged other than a normal processing speed etc. Anyway, sorry to make it about me, but it does bother me a lot .. I've barely been able to read or pay attention most of my life, and if I have half a tab of Xanax, I can barely follow a TV show anymore .. whereas I know chronic alcoholics/drug users who can read novels while impaired. The only time my brain seems to actually work properly is when I'm intensely anxious.

 

I guess a lot of it is the interaction between your personality, life experience, natural talents and ability to harness all of that ..  

 

and FWIW, rock-and-roll is probably the perfect medium for someone (like Cobain) with ADHD .. 

Edited by lucky.pierre, 10 November 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[Flex]

In regards of understanding emotions & behaviour I would change this, if I get something like a smaller depression.

understanding emotions & behaviour is for me something really helpful in daily life.

[Major Legend]

 

Sorry I'm quite tired, and can't address this properly but I think you raise some interesting points. A lot of it probably depends on the context of a person's life, and suffering is not always the direct resultant of mental illness. There are probably general circumstances -- social isolation, a perception that one is 'different' etc. -- that contribute to the need to express oneself creatively, but this can also emerge from just the general fabric of emotional experiences .. heartbreak, loss etc. 

 

 

 

But I think ADD (particularly inattentive) is its own curse .. or maybe I just feel that way because I suffer from it. It isn't just poor executive function; it's a poverty of thought as well, which I think is often underappreciated. I was always told I had a particular gift for writing, but I found it so hard to *generate* thoughts/ideas/content; everything I did always felt like some small fragment or an idea, which I could never really build upon. Even though my writing days are far behind me, it's created a lot of philosophical probing about whether my 'true' self is the one who can write well, but thinks slowly, inefficiently etc., or the one in an 'ideal' world with everything unchanged other than a normal processing speed etc. Anyway, sorry to make it about me, but it does bother me a lot .. I've barely been able to read or pay attention most of my life, and if I have half a tab of Xanax, I can barely follow a TV show anymore .. whereas I know chronic alcoholics/drug users who can read novels while impaired. The only time my brain seems to actually work properly is when I'm intensely anxious.

 

I guess a lot of it is the interaction between your personality, life experience, natural talents and ability to harness all of that ..  

 

and FWIW, rock-and-roll is probably the perfect medium for someone (like Cobain) with ADHD .. 

 

 

Hi, Yes that's what I meant - the emotional depth of people who have mental difficulties is often a "result" of suffering, no different from social isolation, being bullied, or sudden ill circumstances, not because mental difficulties inherently offer some sort of "benefit". I was also trying to point, in my first point - about social stigma, that if a person is not good at something, he or she will be good at something else, thats just not true. Some people are good designers,scientists, musicians, politicians and financiers all together. In my other posts I also mention the idea of a "support network", that intelligence does not foster without other equally talented peers over a period of many years, being cognitively deficient or under performing will often strip you of this "support network" very early on.

 

Venture capital is a great example - no matter how great your ideas are, without knowing people who can fund your brilliance you are stuck with you computer pretty much...

 

As for ADHD, I would argue, since that executive function is the basis of willpower and thus a basis for life, on a biofunctioning perspective the executive function is the only part capable of independent control of neural circuits. I would argue people with ADHD are by definition not fully alive. What you decribe as fragmented thoughts are exactly that - now is this state useful for certain things, I think so, but to be perpetually stuck in it, is half alive to me. This is why I often post about quality of life vs side effects of medication arguments. Having ADHD is like being a perpetually frustrated half alive human being.

 

No I think mental illness IS brain disability, often overlapping with general cognitive mutations (arguably what drives innovation in humanity). I don't wonder whether shizophrenia or alzeihmers is "beneficial" in any manner. I see them as structural deficits causing immense suffering to millions of people. To argue otherwise doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

I mean we know physical trauma to the brain causes depression/anxiety/brain fog etc, I really don't buy the argument that if you kick somebody in the head enough, there will be "benefits". At the very least the chances of becoming a genius from somebody putting a hammer on your head is much less than 1%...

 

 

 

Edited by Major Legend, 12 November 2014 - 12:50 AM.

[eon]

Yes, but not all brain damage is caused by a kick in the head. It could be from birth, genetics, or from environment, etc.

 

And true genius does exist less than 1% in the population so getting hit with a hammer may not be so bad. LOL.

 

I agree with you regarding Venture capital. A person is only considered a genius if your ideas are put out there by a corporate machine, otherwise, lots of people in this forum have great "ideas" but it will stay as is (in the forum) and not some ground breaking news phenomena. 

 

There was a news a while back about a brain damaged person who became a musical genius. But since Geffen Records do not put out his music on CD and back it up with a promotional machine, no one will ever hear of this "genius".

 

If the stock market did not pick up on Facebook, it would just be another MySpace and no one would ever consider Zuckerberg a genius. He beat the MySpace founder to it. So technically "genius" is only relevant if society sees it that way and if society has a need or use for what the "genius" allegedly came up with.

 

If Bill Gates came out with the computers in the 1800s when people had no use for it, it would just be another typewriter. If Jeff Bezos of amazon.com founded amazon.com before there was even an internet, it would be considered a spam site.

Edited by eon, 12 November 2014 - 06:43 AM.

[penisbreath]

 

 

Hi, Yes that's what I meant - the emotional depth of people who have mental difficulties is often a "result" of suffering, no different from social isolation, being bullied, or sudden ill circumstances, not because mental difficulties inherently offer some sort of "benefit". I was also trying to point, in my first point - about social stigma, that if a person is not good at something, he or she will be good at something else, thats just not true. Some people are good designers,scientists, musicians, politicians and financiers all together. In my other posts I also mention the idea of a "support network", that intelligence does not foster without other equally talented peers over a period of many years, being cognitively deficient or under performing will often strip you of this "support network" very early on.

 

Venture capital is a great example - no matter how great your ideas are, without knowing people who can fund your brilliance you are stuck with you computer pretty much...

 

As for ADHD, I would argue, since that executive function is the basis of willpower and thus a basis for life, on a biofunctioning perspective the executive function is the only part capable of independent control of neural circuits. I would argue people with ADHD are by definition not fully alive. What you decribe as fragmented thoughts are exactly that - now is this state useful for certain things, I think so, but to be perpetually stuck in it, is half alive to me. This is why I often post about quality of life vs side effects of medication arguments. Having ADHD is like being a perpetually frustrated half alive human being.

 

No I think mental illness IS brain disability, often overlapping with general cognitive mutations (arguably what drives innovation in humanity). I don't wonder whether shizophrenia or alzeihmers is "beneficial" in any manner. I see them as structural deficits causing immense suffering to millions of people. To argue otherwise doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

I mean we know physical trauma to the brain causes depression/anxiety/brain fog etc, I really don't buy the argument that if you kick somebody in the head enough, there will be "benefits". At the very least the chances of becoming a genius from somebody putting a hammer on your head is much less than 1%...

 

 

Yeah, I always felt the impairment caused by ADHD was tremendously underestimated -- a lot of psychiatrists barely take it seriously. And then the tools used to treat it can be kinda zombifying. I have a high IQ, but it means almost nothing without the ability to not only pay attention, but as I said, to generate thoughts, ideas, content (which is also incredibly important in a social context).

 

I read an article recently that was a somewhat apt analogy: it said that if a person from an economically disadvantaged background did everything right (went to college, got a job etc.), they're still more likely to end up worse off than a rich person who drops out of high school. 

 

It's the same here: there are people like me who do everything right -- eat well, exercise, comply with treatment -- and still end up stuck, barely able to read at times, let alone self-actualize; and there are those who freely abuse their bodies and live perfectly happy, productive lives. 

[Major Legend]

 

 

Yeah, I always felt the impairment caused by ADHD was tremendously underestimated -- a lot of psychiatrists barely take it seriously. And then the tools used to treat it can be kinda zombifying. I have a high IQ, but it means almost nothing without the ability to not only pay attention, but as I said, to generate thoughts, ideas, content (which is also incredibly important in a social context).

 

I read an article recently that was a somewhat apt analogy: it said that if a person from an economically disadvantaged background did everything right (went to college, got a job etc.), they're still more likely to end up worse off than a rich person who drops out of high school. 

 

It's the same here: there are people like me who do everything right -- eat well, exercise, comply with treatment -- and still end up stuck, barely able to read at times, let alone self-actualize; and there are those who freely abuse their bodies and live perfectly happy, productive lives. 

 

 

Hi,

 

Whilst I say here that we can't implicitly corelate mental illness with "benefits". I do however believe from anecdotal observation that :

 

1. People with good executive function (opposite of ADD) far outstrip people with ADD, however as you may have observed "most" people are stupid, thus great executive function has nothing to do with problem solving, intelligence, or ability to independently think outside of the box.

 

2. People with ADD are often great abstract thinkers, the majority of creativity comes from the state where the entire brain is fragmented and thus, things that are not supposed to be cross related are cross pollinated into new ideas, thus its true that a lot of talented people actually have these "fragmeted" traits. This can be to do with that at any given of time only a certain amount of energy runs through our brain, and the way that energy is distributed is important to how we are concious. Thus a person with a daydreaming mind can see things in detail a person with "tunnel vision" can never see, feel, hear or imagine.

 

Thus, people with abstract minds (e.g. some ADD people with high levels of intelligence), if given the power to have states of executive control, are pretty much the pinnacle of human cognition. All great visionaires in humanity have signs of abstract visual/emotion/empathetic simulation and then able to focus that into action.

 

Its way easier and technically feasible/imaginable to achieve improved executive control, rather than increased abstract understanding and imagination - which arguably is not something developed overnight, but takes years and years of mental noise to create such depth in thinking.

 

So not all is lost, if you have High IQ and ADD and you can find a way to gain executive function, you would reach that pinnacle of human cognition.

 

[kurdishfella]

everyone has mental illness to varying degrees. I dont think it has any benefits because it clouds the reality.