153 replies to this topic

[zorba990]

Limonene is considered a 'solvent' or cholesterol. Even used to dissolve gallstones for those that can get someone to do it (taking out gallbladders is big business)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18072821
Now the question is what blood level is required and is that orally attainable?

[niner]

Limonene is considered a 'solvent' or cholesterol. Even used to dissolve gallstones for those that can get someone to do it (taking out gallbladders is big business)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18072821
Now the question is what blood level is required and is that orally attainable?

 

Plaque isn't exactly made of cholesterol-- There is all kind of dysfunctional tissue involved.  Thus dissolving cholesterol wouldn't really help.  You're asking the right question about blood level, but I would worry that getting enough limonene in plasma to physically dissolve cholesterol would likely kill you.

[zorba990]

Limonene is considered a 'solvent' or cholesterol. Even used to dissolve gallstones for those that can get someone to do it (taking out gallbladders is big business)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18072821
Now the question is what blood level is required and is that orally attainable?

Plaque isn't exactly made of cholesterol-- There is all kind of dysfunctional tissue involved. Thus dissolving cholesterol wouldn't really help. You're asking the right question about blood level, but I would worry that getting enough limonene in plasma to physically dissolve cholesterol would likely kill you.

Yes, but I suspect gallstones and bile sludge is made of similar materials; and since limonene has been shown to dissolve this it is a good candidate for the drano effect asked for by the op. Looks like some are preemtively patenting the same
http://www.crtonline...px?PAGE_ID=8575

I suppose it will take someone with clogged arteries who wants to experiment with 1-3 grams a day to see if it has an effect.

[ta5]

Yes, but I suspect gallstones and bile sludge is made of similar materials; and since limonene has been shown to dissolve this it is a good candidate for the drano effect asked for by the op. Looks like some are preemtively patenting the same

http://www.crtonline...px?PAGE_ID=8575

I suppose it will take someone with clogged arteries who wants to experiment with 1-3 grams a day to see if it has an effect.

 

Interesting list there:

 

Solvent           Exposure Time to Solvent (minutes)    Lipid Removal (%)

Control           0                                     0%

Propylene glycol  10                                    20%

Glycerine         12                                    25%

D-Limonene        16                                    60%

Methanol          14                                    80%

Ethanol           14                                    90%

Octanoic acid     14                                    90%

2-Octanone        13                                    70%

Diethyl ether     13                                    90%

[Darryl]

A splendid demonstration of the modern plaque rupture model of ischemic heart disease:

 

 

The very last thing one would want is to ingest anything that might cause the inflammation, oxidative bursts, matrix metalloproteinase secretion, and the fibrous cap failure of a plaque rupture. 

 

Frankly I wouldn't touch any "Drano" like solvents (most of which are either acutely toxic in large amounts), unless they also had demonstrated antiinflammatory capacity. Ethanol might qualify, however its acetaldehyde metabololite on the contrary is inflammatory.

[niner]

Yes, but I suspect gallstones and bile sludge is made of similar materials;

 

They aren't similar. While some gallstones are largely cholesterol, atherosclerotic plaque consists of macrophages, fibrous tissue, calcium-- it's pretty complicated.  At the core, inside the macrophages, is oxidized cholesterol (7-ketocholesterol).  So really, it doesn't even contain any normal cholesterol to speak of.  You aren't going to be able to just dissolve a plaque, unless you dissolve the rest of the body with it.  If you could selectively cleave the 7-ketocholesterol, which macrophages are unable to digest, then you could solve the problem.  SENS is working on this very problem.  If it works, it will not only solve the atherosclerosis problem, but a general problem of aging in all cells.

[Logic]

Limonene is considered a 'solvent' or cholesterol. Even used to dissolve gallstones for those that can get someone to do it (taking out gallbladders is big business)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18072821
Now the question is what blood level is required and is that orally attainable?

D-Limonene kills the BO ne gets from DMSO an DMSO des seem to e good for Atherosclerosis.
So perhaps a combination of the two is worth a try even though the research is as thin as research on unpatentable/unprofitable substances normally is.

http://www.longecity...o-for-injuries/

http://www.dmso.org/.../literature.htm
 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Aspirin inhibits human telomerase activation in unstable carotid plaques
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3735718/

[pone11]

The original poster seems to have disappeared from Longecity, but for the benefit of future readers, rather than finding a draino for arteries, and risking in the process an immediate heart attack when the calcification breaks off, you might do better with a multi-phase strategy.

 

1) Heart disease happens when the endothelial lining of arteries starts to deteriorate and undergo inflammatory processes.   What protects the endothelial lining is nitric oxide.   Nitric oxide typically declines sharply in a person's 40s.   The loss of nitric oxide will typically produce erectile dysfunction (ED) in males, and this is why ED in the research literature often precedes the first symptoms of heart disease by about five years.   What you should first do is get your nitric oxide levels back to target levels.   Buy test strips from a supplier like Berkeleytest.com, and plan on eating nitrate rich foods like celery in quantity.  You need to test iteratively on type of food and quantity.

 

The usual advice to raise nitric oxide is to take arginine or citrulline.  I took both in massive doses and they did nothing, probably due to arginase.   I took supplements that supposedly target nitric oxide levels, like Neo40.  These also did nothing for me.   Food worked (for me) and I can self-regulate nitric oxide levels now.   The ability to test was key to success.

 

2) You need to get a diagnostic showing the extent and magnitude of calcifications.  The gold standard for doing this - with very low radiation risk - is the EBT Scanner.   See http://www.heartscan.com.   It's crazy, but insurance won't cover the test even though it would clearly save lives if people knew the extent of their calcifications before their first heart attack.

 

3) Assuming you do all of this and still want to draino out the calcifications, that usually requires a chelator like EDTA.   That's a dangerous thing to do.   Aside from the fact that you will also chelate out good minerals, you run the risk of breaking off a calcification and having it then become an immediate life-threatening clot.   You would need to be under the care of some very good experts before doing something like this, and it is not a low risk thing probably.  If anyone has studies on this it would be interesting to read those.

 

 

 

Edited by pone11, 27 December 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[JackO'Roses]

What about omega-7 oils?

See the LEF writeup (& references therein) at http://www.lef.org/M...yndrome/Page-01

[Darryl]

Calcium chelators like EDTA just make extracellular calcium ions less available for signalling, and the resultant hypocalcemia has resulted in fatal cardiac arrest during chelation therapy for mercury/lead posining.

 

Vascular calcification is not as simple as mineral deposition from hard water in pans and bathtubs. The real problem arises due to faulty hormonal signalling (increased fibroblast growth factor 23, decreased carboxylated Matrix Gla and klotho expression, etc) vascular smooth muscle cells redifferentiate into osteoblasts and chondrocytes (normally found in bone and cartilage, respectively). This is why vitamin K (especially K2-Mk7+), through increasing carboxylated Matrix Gla, appears so promising - it may correct a hormonal signalling issue.

 

 

Brown, M. J., Willis, T., Omalu, B., & Leiker, R. (2006). Deaths resulting from hypocalcemia after administration of edetate disodium: 2003-2005. Pediatrics,118(2), e534-e536.

Dhore, C. R., Cleutjens, J. P., Lutgens, E., Cleutjens, K. B., Geusens, P. P., Kitslaar, P. J., ... & Daemen, M. J. (2001). Differential expression of bone matrix regulatory proteins in human atherosclerotic plaques. Arteriosclerosis, thrombosis, and vascular biology, 21(12), 1998-2003

Zhu, D., Mackenzie, N. C. W., Millán, J. L., Farquharson, C., & MacRae, V. E. (2011). The appearance and modulation of osteocyte marker expression during calcification of vascular smooth muscle cells. PLoS One, 6(5), e19595.

Theuwissen, E., Smit, E., & Vermeer, C. (2012). The role of vitamin K in soft-tissue calcification. Advances in Nutrition: An International Review Journal,3(2), 166-173.

 

.

[YOLF]

Calcium chelators like EDTA just make extracellular calcium ions less available for signalling, and the resultant hypocalcemia has resulted in fatal cardiac arrest during chelation therapy for mercury/lead posining.

 

Vascular calcification is not as simple as mineral deposition from hard water in pans and bathtubs. The real problem arises due to faulty hormonal signalling (increased fibroblast growth factor 23, decreased carboxylated Matrix Gla and klotho expression, etc) vascular smooth muscle cells redifferentiate into osteoblasts and chondrocytes (normally found in bone and cartilage, respectively). This is why vitamin K (especially K2-Mk7+), through increasing carboxylated Matrix Gla, appears so promising - it may correct a hormonal signalling issue.

 

 

Brown, M. J., Willis, T., Omalu, B., & Leiker, R. (2006). Deaths resulting from hypocalcemia after administration of edetate disodium: 2003-2005. Pediatrics,118(2), e534-e536.

Dhore, C. R., Cleutjens, J. P., Lutgens, E., Cleutjens, K. B., Geusens, P. P., Kitslaar, P. J., ... & Daemen, M. J. (2001). Differential expression of bone matrix regulatory proteins in human atherosclerotic plaques. Arteriosclerosis, thrombosis, and vascular biology, 21(12), 1998-2003

Zhu, D., Mackenzie, N. C. W., Millán, J. L., Farquharson, C., & MacRae, V. E. (2011). The appearance and modulation of osteocyte marker expression during calcification of vascular smooth muscle cells. PLoS One, 6(5), e19595.

Theuwissen, E., Smit, E., & Vermeer, C. (2012). The role of vitamin K in soft-tissue calcification. Advances in Nutrition: An International Review Journal,3(2), 166-173.

 

.

Great references!

[Arjiuna]

Green Tea (hot) and Garlic (but not together)

[zorba990]

A splendid demonstration of the modern plaque rupture model of ischemic heart disease:



The very last thing one would want is to ingest anything that might cause the inflammation, oxidative bursts, matrix metalloproteinase secretion, and the fibrous cap failure of a plaque rupture.

Frankly I wouldn't touch any "Drano" like solvents (most of which are either acutely toxic in large amounts), unless they also had demonstrated antiinflammatory capacity. Ethanol might qualify, however its acetaldehyde metabololite on the contrary is inflammatory.

Anti inflammatory effects of limonene:http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23665426
http://theleafonline...ofile-limonene/

There are many more...

[YOLF]

 

A splendid demonstration of the modern plaque rupture model of ischemic heart disease:



The very last thing one would want is to ingest anything that might cause the inflammation, oxidative bursts, matrix metalloproteinase secretion, and the fibrous cap failure of a plaque rupture.

Frankly I wouldn't touch any "Drano" like solvents (most of which are either acutely toxic in large amounts), unless they also had demonstrated antiinflammatory capacity. Ethanol might qualify, however its acetaldehyde metabololite on the contrary is inflammatory.

Anti inflammatory effects of limonene:http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23665426
http://theleafonline...ofile-limonene/

There are many more...

 

That's interesting. I've noticed a possible anti-inflammatory effect on my gut when taking 10mg/synephrine (one dose may have caused the effect for several days). Synephrine comes from orange extract as well as d-limonene and my synephrine is 99%+ pure. I'm repeating the dose (12mg this time) to see if it was indeed the cause. Synephrine goes well with caffeine.

 

I've confirmed and documented this observation here.

Edited by YOLF, 12 April 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[zorba990]

A splendid demonstration of the modern plaque rupture model of ischemic heart disease:



The very last thing one would want is to ingest anything that might cause the inflammation, oxidative bursts, matrix metalloproteinase secretion, and the fibrous cap failure of a plaque rupture.

Frankly I wouldn't touch any "Drano" like solvents (most of which are either acutely toxic in large amounts), unless they also had demonstrated antiinflammatory capacity. Ethanol might qualify, however its acetaldehyde metabololite on the contrary is inflammatory.

Limonene is anti-inflammatory
http://theleafonline...ofile-limonene/

Anti-Inflammatory: A 2010 study examined the anti-inflammatory effects of limonene and found it to be a potential treatment for asthma due to its ability to inhibit cytokines. There has been much study done on limonenes effectiveness in fighting cancer through stimulating apoptosis and other mechanisms. This 2012 study found limonene to have strong enough inhibition of inflammation to actually be chemopreventive, which means it prevents, rolls back, and protects against cancer. This 2013 study went so far as to recommend using limonene as a dietary supplement due to its powerful anti-inflammatory effects on the intestines.

[amark]

Ok for this answer you owe me your first born male child (ala rumplestiltskin) . If the kid is a jerk forget it!

 

I have been drinking pomegranate juice ever since reading about an experiment where rats were given the equivalent of 4 oz of pomegranate juice a day for 6 weeks. They had a 14% reduction of plaque in 6 weeks. 

 

I read about an experiment where compromised men who drank one cup a day for one year had an average reduction of laque in the carotid of 34%.

I suggested this to a friend. She had a 40% reduction of plaque in the carotid in 8 months. 

 

Unless you have diabetes risk to reward is probably minor.

 

I do this. 

[pone11]

Ok for this answer you owe me your first born male child (ala rumplestiltskin) . If the kid is a jerk forget it!

 

I have been drinking pomegranate juice ever since reading about an experiment where rats were given the equivalent of 4 oz of pomegranate juice a day for 6 weeks. They had a 14% reduction of plaque in 6 weeks. 

 

I read about an experiment where compromised men who drank one cup a day for one year had an average reduction of laque in the carotid of 34%.

I suggested this to a friend. She had a 40% reduction of plaque in the carotid in 8 months. 

 

Unless you have diabetes risk to reward is probably minor.

 

I do this. 

 

What is the proposed mechanism of action for this?

[sensei]

Phosphatidylcholine is an approved medication for the treatment of atherosclerosis in Euorpe.

 

It is known by plaquex, essentiale, or lipostabil

[pone11]

Phosphatidylcholine is an approved medication for the treatment of atherosclerosis in Euorpe.

 

It is known by plaquex, essentiale, or lipostabil

 

I grimace because the phosphatidylcholine might be breaking down to constituents, which include unfortunately omega-6 fatty acids.   What's the mechanism of action?

[YOLF]

 

Phosphatidylcholine is an approved medication for the treatment of atherosclerosis in Euorpe.

 

It is known by plaquex, essentiale, or lipostabil

 

I grimace because the phosphatidylcholine might be breaking down to constituents, which include unfortunately omega-6 fatty acids.   What's the mechanism of action?

 

What about AGPC?

[sensei]

 

Phosphatidylcholine is an approved medication for the treatment of atherosclerosis in Euorpe.

 

It is known by plaquex, essentiale, or lipostabil

 

I grimace because the phosphatidylcholine might be breaking down to constituents, which include unfortunately omega-6 fatty acids.   What's the mechanism of action?

 

 

 

Ummm -- there don't need to be omega - 6 fatty acids in phosphatidylcholine

 

Phosphatidylcholine can contain palmitoleic acid (omega -7) as the saturated fatty acid ; and oleic acid as the unsaturated fatty acid ( omega -9)

 

http://en.wikipedia....phatidylcholine

[pone11]

 

 

Phosphatidylcholine is an approved medication for the treatment of atherosclerosis in Euorpe.

 

It is known by plaquex, essentiale, or lipostabil

 

I grimace because the phosphatidylcholine might be breaking down to constituents, which include unfortunately omega-6 fatty acids.   What's the mechanism of action?

 

What about AGPC?

 

 

glycerophosphocholine (aka alpha-GPC) is by definition just the choline-phosphate-glycerine head of a phospholipid, with the fatty acid tails removed.  See diagram in the left column, middle of this page:

http://catalog.desig...Flyer-Final.pdf

 

The full phosphatidylcholine contains both fatty acid tails, and since the source is usually soy or sunflower lecithin, at least one of these is an omega-6 fatty acid.

 

There are studies saying that the GPC form passes into the brain better.   Supposedly there are studies in alzheimer's patients showing that excess GPC is found in the brain, so I'm not clear on the safety or benefit of giving GPC or phosphatidylcholine to someone with alzheimers.

 

Edited by pone11, 21 January 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[pone11]

 

 

Phosphatidylcholine is an approved medication for the treatment of atherosclerosis in Euorpe.

 

It is known by plaquex, essentiale, or lipostabil

 

I grimace because the phosphatidylcholine might be breaking down to constituents, which include unfortunately omega-6 fatty acids.   What's the mechanism of action?

 

 

 

Ummm -- there don't need to be omega - 6 fatty acids in phosphatidylcholine

 

Phosphatidylcholine can contain palmitoleic acid (omega -7) as the saturated fatty acid ; and oleic acid as the unsaturated fatty acid ( omega -9)

 

http://en.wikipedia....phatidylcholine

 

 

Theoretically you are right.  In practice, have you found any commercial phosphatidylcholine that is made from a source that contains just the monounsaturated fats you reference?

 

I've been looking for that.  So far I only find the sunflower/soy products packaged in lecithin triglycerides, that is loaded in Omega-6.   I find also the PhosChol and the BodyBio products that have the triglycerides removed but still has at least one omega-6 fatty acid tail in the phosphatidylcholine.

 

I posted a new thread on this topic here a while ago:

http://www.longecity...-phospholipids/

 

Apparently I put everyone to sleep.

Edited by pone11, 21 January 2015 - 06:05 AM.

[niner]

I have been drinking pomegranate juice ever since reading about an experiment where rats were given the equivalent of 4 oz of pomegranate juice a day for 6 weeks. They had a 14% reduction of plaque in 6 weeks. 

 

I read about an experiment where compromised men who drank one cup a day for one year had an average reduction of laque in the carotid of 34%.

I suggested this to a friend. She had a 40% reduction of plaque in the carotid in 8 months. 

 

Unless you have diabetes risk to reward is probably minor.

 

Do you have references or links to any of those results?  34% reduction in carotid plaque is pretty impressive.  Are you sure they weren't looking at IMT?  Intima-Media Thickness changes are of debatable merit. 

[pone11]

 

I have been drinking pomegranate juice ever since reading about an experiment where rats were given the equivalent of 4 oz of pomegranate juice a day for 6 weeks. They had a 14% reduction of plaque in 6 weeks. 

 

I read about an experiment where compromised men who drank one cup a day for one year had an average reduction of laque in the carotid of 34%.

I suggested this to a friend. She had a 40% reduction of plaque in the carotid in 8 months. 

 

Unless you have diabetes risk to reward is probably minor.

 

Do you have references or links to any of those results?  34% reduction in carotid plaque is pretty impressive.  Are you sure they weren't looking at IMT?  Intima-Media Thickness changes are of debatable merit. 

 

 

I did a quick search on Pubmed and came up dry.  I suppose they could refer to pomegranate by a different scientific name?  I tried to cross reference against arterial, carotid, heart, etc.   I have seen the claim made on naturopathic blogs, so I am hoping there is some real research too.

 

Does anyone know of a freeze dried source for pomegranate?   It's extremely seasonal, and it's really hard to get the seeds out of the compartments.

Edited by pone11, 21 January 2015 - 06:23 AM.

[Sasha_]

 

 

I have been drinking pomegranate juice ever since reading about an experiment where rats were given the equivalent of 4 oz of pomegranate juice a day for 6 weeks. They had a 14% reduction of plaque in 6 weeks. 

 

I read about an experiment where compromised men who drank one cup a day for one year had an average reduction of laque in the carotid of 34%.

I suggested this to a friend. She had a 40% reduction of plaque in the carotid in 8 months. 

 

Unless you have diabetes risk to reward is probably minor.

 

Do you have references or links to any of those results?  34% reduction in carotid plaque is pretty impressive.  Are you sure they weren't looking at IMT?  Intima-Media Thickness changes are of debatable merit. 

 

 

I did a quick search on Pubmed and came up dry.  I suppose they could refer to pomegranate by a different scientific name?  I tried to cross reference against arterial, carotid, heart, etc.   I have seen the claim made on naturopathic blogs, so I am hoping there is some real research too.

 

Does anyone know of a freeze dried source for pomegranate?   It's extremely seasonal, and it's really hard to get the seeds out of the compartments.

 

 

Found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....C4007340/#ref15

 

[pone11]

 

 

 

I have been drinking pomegranate juice ever since reading about an experiment where rats were given the equivalent of 4 oz of pomegranate juice a day for 6 weeks. They had a 14% reduction of plaque in 6 weeks. 

 

I read about an experiment where compromised men who drank one cup a day for one year had an average reduction of laque in the carotid of 34%.

I suggested this to a friend. She had a 40% reduction of plaque in the carotid in 8 months. 

 

Unless you have diabetes risk to reward is probably minor.

 

Do you have references or links to any of those results?  34% reduction in carotid plaque is pretty impressive.  Are you sure they weren't looking at IMT?  Intima-Media Thickness changes are of debatable merit. 

 

 

I did a quick search on Pubmed and came up dry.  I suppose they could refer to pomegranate by a different scientific name?  I tried to cross reference against arterial, carotid, heart, etc.   I have seen the claim made on naturopathic blogs, so I am hoping there is some real research too.

 

Does anyone know of a freeze dried source for pomegranate?   It's extremely seasonal, and it's really hard to get the seeds out of the compartments.

 

 

Found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....C4007340/#ref15
 

 

The references in that study are great, but I think you misquoted the one that is relevant to the current thread on reducing existing arterial plaque formations.   The one that is amazing is this reference:

http://www.sciencedi...261561403002139

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15158307

 

The results are very dramatic, and the patients were only consuming about 50 ml of juice per day.  But that was a concentrate, and the footnote in the study refers to some other study to understand how that concentrate was prepared.  If someone is motivated to follow through on that let us all know how many pomegranate seeds you have to juice to get an approximately equivalent concentration of polyphenols.

 

The bad part of this study is that patients were largely on one or more other therapies like statins.  So we cannot rule out potential interactions and synergies between different therapies and the pomegranate juice.

 

Still, it makes me want to add in some pomegranate seeds to my breakfast every morning.   How much is enough?

 

Thanks for that reference!

[Luminosity]

Change your diet and lifestyle.  After that you can drink hot, plain Pu-erh tea.  Uncle Lee's brand is available from Swanson's or Vitacost.  You can add a green tea bag to it if you want.  You can also add a Nature's Plus Pancreatin caplet on an empty stomach.  Wait twenty minutes to eat or to drink hot liquids.    

[bocor]

look up the blueberry atherosclerosis study it reversed it in animals also inulin

[amark]

 

Ok for this answer you owe me your first born male child (ala rumplestiltskin) . If the kid is a jerk forget it!
 
I have been drinking pomegranate juice ever since reading about an experiment where rats were given the equivalent of 4 oz of pomegranate juice a day for 6 weeks. They had a 14% reduction of plaque in 6 weeks. 
 
I read about an experiment where compromised men who drank one cup a day for one year had an average reduction of laque in the carotid of 34%.
I suggested this to a friend. She had a 40% reduction of plaque in the carotid in 8 months. 
 
Unless you have diabetes risk to reward is probably minor.
 
I do this.

 
What is the proposed mechanism of action for this?

 

Sorry but I do not know. One thing i left out is that after approx 6 weeks the improved circulation might be evidenced via harder erections. The juice is full of antioxidants but obviously not all antioxidants have this affect.

Edit: fixed broken attributions -mod

Edited by niner, 09 March 2015 - 09:39 PM.