194 replies to this topic

[mark365]

I recommend women become intimate with Ray Peat..and what he has to say about estrogen. 

What's the connection between histamine and creatine?

What's the connection between histamine and inositol?

Some people are now proposing that there's a connection between anti-histamine usage and Alzheimers.

[Area-1255]

I recommend women become intimate with Ray Peat..and what he has to say about estrogen. 

What's the connection between histamine and creatine?

What's the connection between histamine and inositol?

Some people are now proposing that there's a connection between anti-histamine usage and Alzheimers.

Creatine affects methylation which speeds liver removal of histamine and increases the enzymes that lead to histamine degradation..leading to less overall histamine and removal of excess from tissues where it may accumulate and thus cause inflammation, mast cell issues etc...

Creatine is kinda like the amino acid L-Methionine in that aspect. (they both increase methylation)

[mark365]

"Dr. Cowden pointed out that since such a large fraction of the body's methylation is used to produce creatine, by supplementing creatine, some of the load can be taken off the methylation cycle so that more of the methylation can be used for other reactions. (Note that there are at least 50 known methylation reactions in the body, and it is thought that there are probably many more that have not yet been specifically identified.)

This could give temporary help to the methylation reactions until the methylation cycle can be brought up to normal.

Note that the other major user of methylation in the body (and perhaps the main one) is the formation of phosphatidylcholine from phosphatidylethanolamine, so supplying phos. choline as a supplement might help in this same way in terms of freeing up methylation capacity for other uses."

 

SOURCE: http://forums.phoeni...ion-rich.17719/

 

...interesting

[mark365]

"How does Creatine Influence Methylation?

A small sampling of the important molecules activated by a methylation reaction include adrenaline, carnitine, DNA, the polyamine growth regulators (putrescine, spermidine and spermine) and, of course, creatine. In fact, the synthesis of creatine is the single greatest drain of the body’s methyl reserves, consuming over 70% of the body's entire supply. Furthermore, given that the body’s methyl reserves are limited in size, creatine synthesis alone could potentially create a state of methyl-deficiency. In a physiological sense, we have three principal options: (1) increase the size of the body’s methyl reserves; (2) increase the recycling rate of the body’s methyl reserves; or (3) create a scenario where the body no longer needs to synthesize creatine; that is, provide all the creatine the body needs through the diet. In this respect, athletes who supplement with creatine monohydrate are in fact, putting this third scenario into play, essentially sparring their methyl reserves and making more methyl groups available for the activation and synthesis other extremely important cellular targets.

Authors Note: It is my personal belief that many of the “mysterious benefits” often attributed to creatine supplementation, but lacking full explanations, have to do with its ability to increase the body’s capacity to methylate important cellular targets, including our genes and essential anabolic modulators."

 

SOURCE: http://www.longecity...nd-methylation/

 

...very interesting

[Isabeau]

I recommend women become intimate with Ray Peat..and what he has to say about estrogen.

 

I have never heard of him. Found his website and will check it out, thanks!

 

What's the connection between histamine and inositol?

 

In my reseaches I came about two websites that pointed to studies indicating that the use of l-tryptophan, vitamin B and inositol reduced OCD symptoms in histadelics. The same websites talked about supplementing methionine and phosphatidylcholine.

 

I already had the former, I have some methione on the way and tried supplementing with choline at the beginning of my nootropic quest and it didn't do me well.

 

Since histadelia is linked to high histamine I thought I could try inositol, as on top according to a few studies it is also succesful in helping with anxiety and depression: http://examine.com/s...ments/Inositol/

 

Here are the websites:

 

http://www.joanmathe...ler_coaster.htm

http://www.digitalna...nd/C446553.html

Edited by Isabeau, 04 March 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Isabeau]

Creatine affects methylation which speeds liver removal of histamine and increases the enzymes that lead to histamine degradation..leading to less overall histamine and removal of excess from tissues where it may accumulate and thus cause inflammation, mast cell issues etc...

Creatine is kinda like the amino acid L-Methionine in that aspect. (they both increase methylation)

 

 

As I was writting, I have some Methionine on it's way, the website I read suggested 500 mg capsule taken four times daily. What dose of creatine (if any) would you recommend adding to that? 

Edited by Isabeau, 04 March 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[mark365]

"...Unexpectedly, creatine supplementation (alone or in combination with L-arginine) was associated with an 11-20% increase in homocysteine concentration (p < 0.05), which was not attributable to worsened renal function, providing evidence against an effect of creatine on decreasing methylation demand. In conclusion, the present study provides no evidence that L-arginine supplementation improves endothelial function and suggests that l-arginine may increase methylation demand. Creatine supplementation failed to alter the actions of L-arginine on vascular function or suppress methylation demand. The unexpected increase in homocysteine levels following creatine supplementation could have adverse effects and merits further study, since creatine is a commonly used dietary supplement."

 

SOURCE: http://www.longecity...nd-methylation/

[Jason30]

"...Unexpectedly, creatine supplementation (alone or in combination with L-arginine) was associated with an 11-20% increase in homocysteine concentration (p < 0.05), which was not attributable to worsened renal function, providing evidence against an effect of creatine on decreasing methylation demand. In conclusion, the present study provides no evidence that L-arginine supplementation improves endothelial function and suggests that l-arginine may increase methylation demand. Creatine supplementation failed to alter the actions of L-arginine on vascular function or suppress methylation demand. The unexpected increase in homocysteine levels following creatine supplementation could have adverse effects and merits further study, since creatine is a commonly used dietary supplement."

 

SOURCE: http://www.longecity...nd-methylation/

 

hmm that's bad! Maybe supplementation with TMG could reduce the increase in homocysteine?

[Area-1255]

 

"...Unexpectedly, creatine supplementation (alone or in combination with L-arginine) was associated with an 11-20% increase in homocysteine concentration (p < 0.05), which was not attributable to worsened renal function, providing evidence against an effect of creatine on decreasing methylation demand. In conclusion, the present study provides no evidence that L-arginine supplementation improves endothelial function and suggests that l-arginine may increase methylation demand. Creatine supplementation failed to alter the actions of L-arginine on vascular function or suppress methylation demand. The unexpected increase in homocysteine levels following creatine supplementation could have adverse effects and merits further study, since creatine is a commonly used dietary supplement."

 

SOURCE: http://www.longecity...nd-methylation/

 

hmm that's bad! Maybe supplementation with TMG could reduce the increase in homocysteine?

 

Yes, or vitamin B-6.

 

 

Clin Neuropharmacol. 2007 Jan-Feb;30(1):13-7.

High-dose vitamin B6 decreases homocysteine serum levels in patients with schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorders: a preliminary study.

Miodownik C1, Lerner V, Vishne T, Sela BA, Levine J.

Author information

 

Abstract

Vitamin B6 plays an essential role in the normal functioning of the central nervous system. Normal homocysteine (Hcy) serum level is maintained by remethylation of Hcy to methionine by enzymes that require folic acid and vitamin B12 and by catabolism to cysteine by a vitamin B6-dependent enzyme. These findings may be consistent with the hypothesis that the vitamin B6 status may influence plasma Hcy levels. The aims of this preliminary study were (1) to determine whether a correlation exists between Hcy and vitamin B6 levels in patients with schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorders and (2) to investigate whether treatment with high-dose vitamin B6 may reduce Hcy levels in these patients.

METHODS:

In this preliminary study, we enrolled 11 patients with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorders (7 men and 4 women; mean age +/- SD, 50 +/- 12 years) receiving high doses of vitamin B6 treatment (1200 mg/d) for 12 weeks. Blood samples for the assessment of pyridoxal-5-phosphate and Hcy serum levels were obtained at baseline and after 12 weeks of treatment.

RESULTS:

Age was significantly positively correlated with Hcy levels at baseline (r = 0.392, P = 0.004). All other parameters, including diagnosis, disease duration, and pyridoxal-5-phosphate serum level, were not correlated with Hcy serum levels at baseline. After vitamin B6 treatment, Hcy serum levels significantly decreased (14.2 +/- 3.4 vs. 11.8 +/- 2.0 micromol/L, respectively, t = 2.679, P = 0.023); this decrease being statistically significant in men but not in women.

CONCLUSIONS:

High doses of vitamin B6 lead to a decrease in Hcy serum level in male patients with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder.

PMID:   17272965   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Apr;73(4):759-64.

Low-dose vitamin B-6 effectively lowers fasting plasma homocysteine in healthy elderly persons who are folate and riboflavin replete.

McKinley MC1, McNulty H, McPartlin J, Strain JJ, Pentieva K, Ward M, Weir DG, Scott JM.

Author information

 

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Current data suggest that physiologic doses of vitamin B-6 have no significant homocysteine-lowering effect. It is possible that an effect of vitamin B-6 was missed in previous trials because of a much greater effect of folic acid, vitamin B-12, or both.

OBJECTIVE:

The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of low-dose vitamin B-6 supplementation on fasting total homocysteine (tHcy) concentrations in healthy elderly persons who were made replete with folate and riboflavin.

DESIGN:

Twenty-two healthy elderly persons aged 63-80 y were supplemented with a low dose of vitamin B-6 (1.6 mg/d) for 12 wk in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial after repletion with folic acid (400 microg/d for 6 wk) and riboflavin (1.6 mg/d for 18 wk); none of the subjects had a vitamin B-12 deficiency.

RESULTS:

Folic acid supplementation lowered fasting tHcy by 19.6% (P < 0.001). After folic acid supplementation, baseline tHcy concentrations ranged from 6.22 to 23.52 micromol/L and 10 subjects had suboptimal vitamin B-6 status (plasma pyridoxal-P < 20 nmol/L). Two-way analysis of variance showed that the significant improvement in vitamin B-6 status in response to vitamin B-6 supplementation (on the basis of both pyridoxal-P: and the erythrocyte aspartate aminotransferase activation coefficient) was reflected in a significant reduction in plasma tHcy of 7.5%.

CONCLUSIONS:

Low-dose vitamin B-6 effectively lowers fasting plasma tHcy in healthy subjects who are both folate and riboflavin replete. This suggests that any program aimed at the treatment or prevention of hyperhomocysteinemia should include vitamin B-6 supplementation.

PMID:   11273851   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]    Free full text

[Jason30]

Thanks.

I wonder how many Vitamin B6 is needed to lower homocysteine.

I am ordering this b complex with :

Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate) 10 mg

 

Could the 10mg do the trick?

[Area-1255]

Thanks.

I wonder how many Vitamin B6 is needed to lower homocysteine.

I am ordering this b complex with :

Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate) 10 mg

 

Could the 10mg do the trick?

It might, depends on how much you are raising it and presence of other factors as well..dietary etc

[mark365]

You are unique.

Test

Calibrate

Test again.

[Jason30]

That's indeed true, i am gonna test it and see what happens , thanks both.

[Area-1255]

What's really interesting and noteworthy - is that creatine and L-Lysine together seem to have , at least on me, amplified anxiolytic effects....

I also notice that creatine seems to extend to the time / action of certain stimulants...namely beta-agonists and rauwolscine.

[Jason30]

Good to know! What other noticable effects do you have from creatine and l-lysine?

I expect the creatine and l-lysine to be delivered next week, i am curious what it will do by me.

 

[Area-1255]

Good to know! What other noticable effects do you have from creatine and l-lysine?

I expect the creatine and l-lysine to be delivered next week, i am curious what it will do by me.

L-Lysine stops/reduces intestinal responses from anxiety - including diarrhea/fast bowel movements (excitation induced), and it also seems to combat some symptoms of GERD. Also seemed to help my OCD (in regards to frequency of repetitive thoughts) a bit without adversely affecting intellectual ability.

 

 

 

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Dec 23;100(26):15370-5. Epub 2003 Dec 15.

L-Lysine acts like a partial serotonin receptor 4 antagonist and inhibits serotonin-mediated intestinal pathologies and anxiety in rats.

Smriga M1, Torii K.

Author information

 

Abstract

The purpose of this investigation was to determine whether a nutritionally essential amino acid, l-lysine, acts like a serotonin receptor 4 (5-HT4) antagonist, and if l-lysine is beneficial in animal models of serotonin (5-HT)-induced anxiety, diarrhea, ileum contractions, and tachycardia and in stress-induced fecal excretion. The radioligand-binding assay was used to test the binding of l-lysine to various 5-HT receptors. The effects of l-lysine on 5-HT-induced contractions of isolated guinea pig ileum were studied in vitro. The effects of oral administration of l-lysine on diarrhea, stress-induced fecal excretion, and 5-HT-induced corticosterone release, tachycardia, and anxiety (an elevated plus maze paradigm) were studied in rats in vivo. l-Lysine (0.8 mmol/dl) inhibited (9.17%) binding of 5-HT to the 5-HT4 receptor, without any effect on 5-HT1A,2A,2B,2C,3 binding. l-Lysine (0.07 and 0.7 mmol/dl) blocked 5-HT-induced contractions of an isolated guinea pig ileum in vitro (P < 0.05 and P < 0.01). Orally applied l-lysine (1 g/kg of body weight) inhibited (P < 0.12) diarrhea triggered by coadministration of restraint stress and 5-hydroxytryptophane (10 mg/kg of body weight), and significantly blocked anxiety induced by the 5-HT4 receptor agonist (3.0 mmol/liter) in rats in vivo. No effects of l-lysine or the 5-HT4 receptor agonist on plasma corticosterone and heart rate were recorded. l-Lysine may be a partial 5-HT4 receptor antagonist and suppresses 5-HT4 receptor-mediated intestinal pathologies and anxiety in rats. An increase in nutritional load of l-lysine might be a useful tool in treating stress-induced anxiety and 5-HT-related diarrhea-type intestinal dysfunctions.

Comment in

• Lysine as a serotonin receptor antagonist: using the diet to modulate gut function. [Gastroenterology. 2004]

 

Edited by Area-1255, 10 March 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[HappyShoe]

That's great to know for me!

Also, people should be aware to not take too much B6

[Son of Perdition]

can we lower homocystein with NAC?

[Area-1255]

can we lower homocystein with NAC?

Yeah, Vitamin B6 and B12 can help as well.

[Son of Perdition]

i think b12 sublingual is best tho

[Area-1255]

i think b12 sublingual is best tho

To an extent, depending on what you are using it for.

[Area-1255]

Another idea SoP is to stop intaking artificial carbs, which have a huge impact on histamine functioning..can throw it off for worse or for worst.

[Area-1255]

There's some evidence that PRURITIS aka itching is caused by the H4 receptor mostly, and only partly the H1 receptor. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19652466

[Son of Perdition]

yeah i seen that.

[factsmachine]

Hello my friend.
Very interesting post- I have much to learn, once again just like all of your in depth posts I could read all day.
So I am a normally low GABA, low dopamine, not talkative, nervous person. On currently high estrogen I feel very emotional and pumped full of emotions and I hate it. Low estrogen and I need stimulants. Too low and I feel just weird.
I'm on a gram of test a week. And I'm only on low dose DXM and maintnenxe doses of opiates, tapering down.
What interactions does say- hydromorphone have with histamine? I know they produce a histamine release with the itching, ect.

My goal is to create a motivated, talkative, emotionally strong and not so easily swayed, focused mood. With relaxed inhibitions. And getting rid of my anhedonia. Where shall I start with manipulating each and every needed thing? Histamine plays a big role it seems.
I'm thinking if I could lower 5ht2c that would be good but I don't have access to anything I don't believe.
Looking into memantine for its NMDA antagonist thus dopamine boosting effects. Also feel better on those antagonists, my mind tends to overproduce thoughts, sensitive to any outside stimuli. I've been in obsessive worrying and thought loops lately.
Its all a huge puzzle..

[Area-1255]

Hello my friend.
Very interesting post- I have much to learn, once again just like all of your in depth posts I could read all day.
So I am a normally low GABA, low dopamine, not talkative, nervous person. On currently high estrogen I feel very emotional and pumped full of emotions and I hate it. Low estrogen and I need stimulants. Too low and I feel just weird.
I'm on a gram of test a week. And I'm only on low dose DXM and maintnenxe doses of opiates, tapering down.
What interactions does say- hydromorphone have with histamine? I know they produce a histamine release with the itching, ect.

My goal is to create a motivated, talkative, emotionally strong and not so easily swayed, focused mood. With relaxed inhibitions. And getting rid of my anhedonia. Where shall I start with manipulating each and every needed thing? Histamine plays a big role it seems.
I'm thinking if I could lower 5ht2c that would be good but I don't have access to anything I don't believe.
Looking into memantine for its NMDA antagonist thus dopamine boosting effects. Also feel better on those antagonists, my mind tends to overproduce thoughts, sensitive to any outside stimuli. I've been in obsessive worrying and thought loops lately.
Its all a huge puzzle..

Well the opiates are probably causing you some hypothalamic issues, and the high estrogen is making this even worse..with both opiates and high estrogen, your prolactin is probably through the roof!

 

Opiates, including dilaudid (hydromorphone), frequently cause tons of histamine release, but their downside comes from the dopamine depletion.

 

Without dopamine, histamine doesn't work properly, and without histamine, dopamine isn't used properly - they both are needed for normal and sensible thinking processes. Histamine and Glutamate are both needed in proper proportion to maintain sanity and cognition. 

 

Here's the thing , opiates actually produce psychotic symptoms in some people, because they also LOWER glutamate in many cases, and as said before, LOW glutamate can cause psychosis, even if histamine is in the normal range, they have to be in ratio with each other.

 

Opiates decrease glutamate by negatively modulating cAMP and thus lowering thyroid hormone and calcium channels which lead to lower glutamate and a bunch of other neurotransmitters...

 

Taking antihistamines may offset some of the peripheral sides of opiates, but will make the mental condition worse.

Memantine will also be an issue if your glutamate is crashed from opiates.

 

The best way to increase GABA and dopamine, and believe me, this is a common issue to have low of both of those.

 

Take rosemarinic acid extract w/ butterbur, or just eat tons of rosemary. 

Additionally take magnolia and flowering quince together, 2x a day for reuptake inhibition of dopamine.

 

Drink coffee throughout the day to reduce mu-opioid activity.

[factsmachine]

Very likely so.. Now that you mention it- prolactin is linked to thinking certain people are extremely close to you and avoiding everybody else, due to interactions with dopamine. And also my sex drive has been zilch even with the G of test.. So it makes perfect sense.

Does B6 truly help counteract high prolactin as I read on AM?

Okay, so cAMP issues. I have raw coleus forskolii powder. I'd like to get forskolin out of it. Now to find a way to get an extract out of this powder. That would certainly help with this, no?

Okay, rosemary. Particularly, this chemical from it. And flowering quince and butterbur. Add that to my shopping list.

So I'm switching to a partial agonist, buprenorphine/naloxone (subutex) on Wednesday and I'm excited to no longer be a slave to that.
I have wellbutrin, maybe I'll take a couple days off from the DXM and try a single dose of the bupropion (I hear the dopamine effects are more pronounced at first then quickly turn to norepinephrine with the metabolite)

I'm having caffeine throughout the day and adding in Letrozole to try to treat my gyno. Should probably jump down to 250 test a week while I fix that. Its probably permanent by now. That would be producing excess prolactin as well... Oh boy.

[factsmachine]

http://area1255.blog...a-with.html?m=1

Ahh, ROYAL JELLY! Now I must find it. Health food stores definitely will have it. Have to get that ASAP.

[Area-1255]

Very likely so.. Now that you mention it- prolactin is linked to thinking certain people are extremely close to you and avoiding everybody else, due to interactions with dopamine. And also my sex drive has been zilch even with the G of test.. So it makes perfect sense.

Does B6 truly help counteract high prolactin as I read on AM?

Okay, so cAMP issues. I have raw coleus forskolii powder. I'd like to get forskolin out of it. Now to find a way to get an extract out of this powder. That would certainly help with this, no?

Okay, rosemary. Particularly, this chemical from it. And flowering quince and butterbur. Add that to my shopping list.

So I'm switching to a partial agonist, buprenorphine/naloxone (subutex) on Wednesday and I'm excited to no longer be a slave to that.
I have wellbutrin, maybe I'll take a couple days off from the DXM and try a single dose of the bupropion (I hear the dopamine effects are more pronounced at first then quickly turn to norepinephrine with the metabolite)

I'm having caffeine throughout the day and adding in Letrozole to try to treat my gyno. Should probably jump down to 250 test a week while I fix that. Its probably permanent by now. That would be producing excess prolactin as well... Oh boy.

Caffeine isn't the chemical in coffee that inhibits opiate receptor activity, though..it's a different, sort of obscure alkaloid found in the bean, usually more so in instantized coffee for w/e reason.

[factsmachine]

Ahh interesting...

So I got relora (magnolia) 250mg extract, how many mg should I take to notice a difference and how soon would it be?

Also got (Ashwagandha) sensoril the patented one. I had it before and didn't notice much of a difference. What should I expect? I'll try one cap 3 times a day.

Also forskolin 130mg 10% forskolin. I'll try one in the morning and one in the evening.
Didn't have the money for the rosemary or butterbur. After I get some cash I'll look into that. Also couldn't afford the royal jelly and it was hugely overpriced.