112 replies to this topic

[erraticpattern]

I’ll try to be thorough but concise with this.

 

I’m a 26-year-old male who has always been a high-functioning individual. I’ve been working on my PhD in computer science while simultaneously working on a Master's degree in Bioinformatics and Computational Biology. My normal hobbies are things such as whitewater rafting, hiking, mixed martial arts, and powerlifting. Normally, I am a very busy and active individual who loves life. However, since April 1 of this year, I have been in an absolute borderline-psychotic mess incapable of functioning as a normal and healthy human being. I have not been enrolled in my PhD or Masters program since April 1 since I have been and am still currently totally non-functional, and I am desperate to get my normal self back so I can continue on with my goals in life and live well as I had before all of this started. The basic story of how my life fell apart is as follows:

 

In February of this year, I visited a naturopath in my area who prescribed me oral pregnenolone MLM and DHEA to help “optimize my hormones”. On February 24, I started with 50mg of pregnenolone MLM per day and 25 mg of DHEA per day. The first week, these drugs made me feel very "off". I felt strangely intoxicated, but my doctor told me to just stick with it. By the second week, I felt fantastic. My energy was insanely high and I was unable to sit still -- I had to keep doing things and getting things done. I was convinced that the doctor was had massively improved my quality of life as I felt more energetic and unstoppable than ever before. After the second week, my physical and psychological condition began to deteriorate rapidly. I started feeling very dizzy, nauseous, extremely short-of-breath, and as though my senses were over-stimulated. I initially thought I was having an allergic reaction to some kind of food I ate since I started having major breathing problems. Soon, within an hour after taking my pregnenolone and DHEA, I would become debilitated with an extraordinary headache that felt as though my head would explode. I also started having numerous psychological symptoms such as panic attacks, episodes of delirium, and episodes of extreme depersonalization/derealization. I told the prescribing doctor on March 27, and he told me I could stop them. That day was my last dose of pregnenolone MLM and DHEA. A few days later, on the morning of April 1, I woke up in a state of delirium and extreme anxiety accompanied with intense nausea and dizziness. My entire mind had been altered in an awful way, as though something had simply “snapped”. I ended up in the ER thinking I was dying, and was fully confident that I would die in the ambulance on the way to the hospital as I was fading in and out of consciousness. An MRI of my brain showed no lesions or tumorous masses, and an echocardiogram of my heart showed nothing of concern.

 

Since then, I've had an amalgam of symptoms that feels as though my entire mind and nervous system is shutting down and/or going haywire. I've had numerous episodes of that anxious psychosis and unbearable akathisia lasting for three to four weeks in length with short breaks in-between them. This last episode started in the first week of August and is still ongoing. During the breaks, numerous physical symptoms are still present (e.g. nausea, dizziness, vertigo, tinnitus, stomach pain, chest pain, shortness of breath, etc.) are still fully there, but the psychological symptoms are lessened in intensity. I've also developed chills, sweats, "brain zaps", and very intense full-body neuropathies with a progressing sense of derealization and intoxication. Whatever is going on appears to be progressing, as this past month of August has been at peak intensity with many new symptoms arising. The doctors I've seen so far have yet to determine what the cause of all of this is. I feel as though I am losing my mind and, quite frankly, the functioning of my nervous system in general (shortness of breath, loss of balance and coordination, diarrhea, extreme lightheadedness, etc.). I’ve been bedridden through much of this hell, feeling like I’ve been poisoned as I’m vomiting, having extreme nausea, unable to eat anything, and suffering from extreme neuropsychological symptoms.

 

What I’m going through seems to be similar to the absolute worst case of benzo/SSRI withdrawal (excitotoxic reaction) or worse-cast adverse reactions to fluoroquinolones. Massive disruptions in GABA and NMDA receptor activity is about the best guess I have at this point, as (1) this disruption is theorized to be central to the cause of benzo/SSRI withdrawal and adverse fluoroquinolone reactions, and (2) pregnenolone and DHEA are known to have strong effects on these receptors, promoting excitotoxicity and seizures.

 

Anyways, I'm posting this both to spread the word about oral pregnenolone and DHEA as well as to get input (advice, testimonials of similar reactions, etc.). I've been compiling a list of anecdotal reports of people who have had similar reactions, but, among those reports I can find, my reaction is the most severe and protracted in length. That may be because I remained on pregnenolone and DHEA for over a month in spite of my adverse reaction, feeling reassured by my doctor that these strange reactions are nothing but my body "adjusting to an optimal hormonal balance".

[Ehvam]

26 years old and your doc wants to balance your hormones? WTF???

Since you were healthy and feeling good and active, what in the world made him, or you think that there was anything off about your hormones? 

My sympathies for your troubles. The first step is making sure you never take advice from that quack again.

the only advice I can offer from years of anxiety related issues, is to try and bring some awareness to your symptoms. Anxiety has an amazing way to become a mental "habit" once you've had an episode. The hyper vigilance caused by the initial experience leaves in a heightened sense of alarm, triggering other anxiety like issues.. it can be a viscious cycle. other than that- recuperate as best you can -with no supplements. Moderate exercise, great diet, prioritize sleep and rest.. Your body is young, and it should find its way back to normal on its own given the proper chance to heal.

 

I've never taken preg, but do take dhea at 25 mg a few times a week, on and off.. but I am 45. Stories like this are maddening. 

[krillin]

Sounds like a worse version of what happened to me after being prescribed Cymbalta. My anxiety probably would never have gone away if I hadn't done EEG biofeedback. I still get muscle tension, so I have to take 2.5 mg felodipine, 3 x 300 mg gabapentin, 3 x 50 mcg clonidine, and 5 x 100 mg rimantadine (in three doses: 200, 200, 100). Rimantadine is the thing that relieves the symptoms, clonidine enhances it a bit and is there to make sure I don't get Olney's lesions from the NMDA antagonism, and the small doses of felodipine and gabapentin are required to enable rimantadine to work. 5 mg felodipine is actually less effective than 2.5 mg. (Probably because that's where it starts inhibiting dopamine as well as glutamate release.) The stack is based on Jay Goldstein's ideas.

[Luminosity]

Sorry you went through that.  I too, am surprised that a doctor wanted to mess with the hormones of a healthy young male.  Balance your hormones?  What?  It's generally not a good idea to mess with hormones.  You are an example of that.  There a number of things that males take to help them bodybuild or have better sexual performance that are not a good idea.

 

Have you tried talking to your body?  Let it tell you how upset it is.  Listen to it.  You overrode it's feelings and maybe now it's telling you what it thought of that.  You need to seek balance in life between achievement, activity, rest and fun stuff.  You can't push your body more than is healthy.  You have to learn to not be a perfectionist.  Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean you should try to achieve it.

 

As far as physically, I favor Chinese Medicine for healing, after you talk to your body and if you still need something.  I have put a link to my thread on Chinese Medicine.

 

http://www.longecity...ese-medicine/  

Edited by Luminosity, 10 September 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[krillin]

Sorry you went through that.  I too, am surprised that a doctor wanted to mess with the hormones of a healthy young male.

 

He actually went to a naturopath, which is closer to witch doctor than actual doctor.
 

[Luminosity]

Careful, there are better naturopaths than that and Western doctors messing with people's hormones.  They invented the concept.  

[medievil]

You should not combine them, dhea is a sigma agonist while pregnenolone is a antagonist, give both an individual trial.

[medievil]

Disrubted electric brain activity is associated with psychosis and shizophrenia and explains your brainzaps, you cant just focus on just a glutaminergic intervention, for positives both gaba and glutamate need need to be adressed in balance, theres both a gaba and glutamate defiency in shizo, those neurosteroids are gaba antagonists.

 

If you want to stay off meds, picamilon togheter with something for tolerance like memantine could help, memantine is synergetic with glutaminergics atleast with piracetam, on the other hand i tought preg and dhea kept gaba upregulated so picamilon if it works will keep working.

 

Do you have any negative symptions at all?

Fasoracetam and nefiracetam both target gaba and glutamate as an aside.

[YOLF]

At your age, you shouldn't take more than 5mg of DHEA, if that. I would start working out as much as you can manage, just don't do it alone. Then add supplements if needed.

[erraticpattern]

Yeah, I try to get as much exercise as possible, but anything beyond the minimal isn't doable right now. I do try to go for moderate walks when I can, but am not able to do that very often.

 

I did have some signs of improvement over the past three days, but, as of last night, I got slammed again and all signs of healing are completely absent.

[airplanepeanuts]

I didn't get a clear effect from any of the two on mood. Pregnenolone feels estrogenic though, which I dislike as a guy. Dhea also feels estrogenic but more balanced hormone wise. 

 

Maybe you got an impure product? 

[Area-1255]

At your age, you shouldn't take more than 5mg of DHEA, if that. I would start working out as much as you can manage, just don't do it alone. Then add supplements if needed.

Agreed, pregnenolone does offer some uses, even in anxiety disorders...it has an effect on GABA activity / levels...but the younger you are the more Preg you should be producing on your own.

 

http://peatarian.com...nolone-and-gaba

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14749094

 

Though it's interesting, GABA-A's are typically defined as beneficial, and the most anxiolytic receptor - yet GABA-B might be just as important, if not more. I think a lot of people overlook that when blocking GABA-A - you will have more GABA-B activity, unless you are talking about channel modulation / allosteric modulation.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15629203

[erraticpattern]

At your age, you shouldn't take more than 5mg of DHEA, if that. I would start working out as much as you can manage, just don't do it alone. Then add supplements if needed.

No DHEA or pregnenolone for me EVER again, even at 5mg.

[eon]

This is fact. I looked it up before my use of preg. Preg will produce DHEA so you won't need DHEA supplementation. Some people have taken both because they didn't have a clue. I believe there is info in the book I read that to take both in low dosages like preg is max at 100mg and DHEA starts at 5 mg. 

 

OP were you taking something else? Also, you mentioned preg was "prescribed" to you? I bought mines without prescription as it is a natural product that is OTC. Pregnenolone was originally an arthritis medication back in the 40's I believe. The dosage required was about 500mg so your dose of 50mg should not have given any issues as this was my dose as well but without DHEA use. I've read of people's doses of 100 to 150 mg to see better effects.

 

You should not combine them, dhea is a sigma agonist while pregnenolone is a antagonist, give both an individual trial.

 

Edited by eon, 19 September 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[erraticpattern]

 

This is fact. I looked it up before my use of preg. Preg will produce DHEA so you won't need DHEA supplementation. Some people have taken both because they didn't have a clue. I believe there is info in the book I read that to take both in low dosages like preg is max at 100mg and DHEA starts at 5 mg. 

 

OP were you taking something else? Also, you mentioned preg was "prescribed" to you? I bought mines without prescription as it is a natural product that is OTC. Pregnenolone was originally an arthritis medication back in the 40's I believe. The dosage required was about 500mg so your dose of 50mg should not have given any issues as this was my dose as well but without DHEA use. I've read of people's doses of 100 to 150 mg to see better effects.

 

You should not combine them, dhea is a sigma agonist while pregnenolone is a antagonist, give both an individual trial.

 

 

Nope. Not taking anything else whatsoever.

The rationale behind taking the pregnonolone and DHEA simultaneously is that directly filling in the DHEA pathway with actual DHEA enables pregnenolone to backfill the glucocorticoid pathway. The reason why I was prescribed pregnenolone is to raise my cortisol levels, and the doc included DHEA for the reason I mentioned.

[UniqueNewYork]

I couldn't believe what I read when I saw your post. I have had the exact same experience you did. The weirdest part is it happened in exactly the same time frame. MIne started in April. It fits your exact symptoms to a 'T'.

 

I noticed you cut and pasted to several sites. Good way to get the information out there. You're a desperate man. If you were feeling how I was, I understand.

 

Being the kind of person I am with very little faith in current medical treatments and orthodoxy, I knew not much could or would be done. If I was going to find answers, it would most likely be online. I remained mostly silent and stoic about it in my personal life.

 

I saw that someone had posted that you had triggered schizophrenia due to a genetic susceptability. Not likely. There may be a genetic component to it but that's not the one.

 

I'm going to go slow with the information because mine follows a few possible paths and there's some information to go over in detail that I don't have on hand.

 

I will say that there has been a gastrointestinal component to it that was occurring just beforehand. It lead to the same washout or draining of neurotransmitters leaving me feeling empty and void and unable to cope or concentrate. Sleep was erratic and unrestful. Deja vu with seizure-like episodes. Weakness and  tunnel vision. Syncope with nausea and diarrhea. Anxiety with depersonalization. Chest and back pains. It felt like a glutamate storm was occuring from some sort of brain damage and I could not prioritize my thoughts. My brain felt all gummed up. Everything was equally as important as everything else. It's funny how almost no one noticed because it was all internalized and subjective. I was trying to increase gaba activity as much as possible to counter the glutamate. My brain was too excited firing on all cylinders and I couldn't control it. It was like every thought was a rocket, ricocheting in every direction. Too intense, too much happening all at once. Paranoia and anxiety on steroids, like the sky was falling down. It was awful.

 

I am however coming out of it now. How I did it was through some personal strength, observing the mind while it went haywire and remaining somewhat aloof. My feeling was that it eventually would resolve, everything would come back around and I'd gain some understanding of the cause and have more control in the future. I also used a few other things that helped. I was experiementing with zinc, magnesium, curcumin, NAC, L-theanine, Omega 3, green tea extract, lysine, taurine and lastly probiotics. In fact very specific strains of probiotics. Mainly Helveticus and Longum. Then I continued to use a wide spectrum probiotic with at least 10 different strains in the neighborhood of 25-50 billion cfu. There have been some studies done on the GABAergic activity of some strains of bifidobacterium and lactobacillus.

 

This could be placebo effect to some extent but I feel generally that my mind is becoming more efficient and much more stable.

 

For what it's worth serotonin and gaba have a symbiotic relationship. There are more serotonin receptors in the gut than anywhere else. ( gastrointestinal problems ) Then there are receptors in the spine as well. ( Chest and back pain ). Then of course you have the lack of serotonin and gaba for the brain and the brain becomes a mess.

 

I didn't use pregnenolone or dhea but the effects are identical. The only things I was using was sublingual b12, omega 3 and 2 mg melatonin everyday for 2 months. The situation got progressively worse until April. Circadian rythyms were getting really messed up for months and then the really bad stuff hit. I feel like I may have forced a situation on a weakened state. Genetics may have played a very small part.

 

I feel like you'll be all right. It's unfortunate you had to go through this so young. I'm in my 40's and have more experience to back me up. You sound confident, strong, clear headed and educated and I think that helped you a lot.  It's a live and learn type situation. We're living in a great age to help us with our health but unfortunately we're living in the information age where everyone's an expert, not enough is tested and a little information can be a dangerous thing. People are going to experiment and suffer the results. Or learn something new too! That's the good part. For me, I'm managing and making sure that GABA never leaves my brain alone undefended again. It's not a nice world when your brain is thrown into an abyss and lacks any priority. It's a bit like being a vegetable but a vegetable that also has to do stuff, like work and try and enjoy itself now and then.

 

I'm not perfect now but then I wasn't before anyway so.....! Some days I feel great and there's no problem at all. Some days there are but nothing like before. Not even close. It's a gradual thing.

 

I would take the probiotic route and combine it with L-theanine or green tea extract. I don't know exactly what L-theanine in green tea does and I don't think anyone else does either. It doesn't work directly on GABA but it might have a more indirect influence. I also don't know what the probiotics are doing but they're doing something. Something to GABA, maybe serotonin too. I would also try and get some undenatured whey protein, possibly with NAC as well. A good way to stimulate glutathione. Glutathione is a like miracle molecule. You want to restore balance as much as possible and glutathione will help. There's several studies showing it to be a neuromodulator and having anxiolytic-like effects. Glutathione seems to love balance.

 

I'm not an expert. I'm recommending things I know are very likely to help and above all are extremely safe. I know being safe is something that you want to do.

 

I also have a friend who's having the exact same list of symptoms right now. Kind of weird, I think.

 

BTW, I love this site and come to it often but I only finally joined to answer your post, so you got that going for you!

 

Congratulations on your engagement. I'm sure you'll be able to enjoy your wedding.

 

 

 

 

[eon]

I still don't get why anyone was prescribed both pregnenolone and DHEA when these are OTC. It doesn't add up. Pregnenolone is said to promote neurogenesis. Maybe different drugs react differently with people. Preg is a precursor to DHEA from what I understand so need to supplement both. I still wonder why Life Extension offers them both on amazon as if they are a great pair. LOL.

[krillin]

Anything a doctor orders is a prescription. We mean "prescription-only drugs" when we say "prescription drugs".

[erraticpattern]

I couldn't believe what I read when I saw your post. I have had the exact same experience you did. The weirdest part is it happened in exactly the same time frame. MIne started in April. It fits your exact symptoms to a 'T'.

 

I noticed you cut and pasted to several sites. Good way to get the information out there. You're a desperate man. If you were feeling how I was, I understand.

 

Being the kind of person I am with very little faith in current medical treatments and orthodoxy, I knew not much could or would be done. If I was going to find answers, it would most likely be online. I remained mostly silent and stoic about it in my personal life.

 

I saw that someone had posted that you had triggered schizophrenia due to a genetic susceptability. Not likely. There may be a genetic component to it but that's not the one.

 

I'm going to go slow with the information because mine follows a few possible paths and there's some information to go over in detail that I don't have on hand.

 

I will say that there has been a gastrointestinal component to it that was occurring just beforehand. It lead to the same washout or draining of neurotransmitters leaving me feeling empty and void and unable to cope or concentrate. Sleep was erratic and unrestful. Deja vu with seizure-like episodes. Weakness and  tunnel vision. Syncope with nausea and diarrhea. Anxiety with depersonalization. Chest and back pains. It felt like a glutamate storm was occuring from some sort of brain damage and I could not prioritize my thoughts. My brain felt all gummed up. Everything was equally as important as everything else. It's funny how almost no one noticed because it was all internalized and subjective. I was trying to increase gaba activity as much as possible to counter the glutamate. My brain was too excited firing on all cylinders and I couldn't control it. It was like every thought was a rocket, ricocheting in every direction. Too intense, too much happening all at once. Paranoia and anxiety on steroids, like the sky was falling down. It was awful.

 

I am however coming out of it now. How I did it was through some personal strength, observing the mind while it went haywire and remaining somewhat aloof. My feeling was that it eventually would resolve, everything would come back around and I'd gain some understanding of the cause and have more control in the future. I also used a few other things that helped. I was experiementing with zinc, magnesium, curcumin, NAC, L-theanine, Omega 3, green tea extract, lysine, taurine and lastly probiotics. In fact very specific strains of probiotics. Mainly Helveticus and Longum. Then I continued to use a wide spectrum probiotic with at least 10 different strains in the neighborhood of 25-50 billion cfu. There have been some studies done on the GABAergic activity of some strains of bifidobacterium and lactobacillus.

 

This could be placebo effect to some extent but I feel generally that my mind is becoming more efficient and much more stable.

 

For what it's worth serotonin and gaba have a symbiotic relationship. There are more serotonin receptors in the gut than anywhere else. ( gastrointestinal problems ) Then there are receptors in the spine as well. ( Chest and back pain ). Then of course you have the lack of serotonin and gaba for the brain and the brain becomes a mess.

 

I didn't use pregnenolone or dhea but the effects are identical. The only things I was using was sublingual b12, omega 3 and 2 mg melatonin everyday for 2 months. The situation got progressively worse until April. Circadian rythyms were getting really messed up for months and then the really bad stuff hit. I feel like I may have forced a situation on a weakened state. Genetics may have played a very small part.

 

I feel like you'll be all right. It's unfortunate you had to go through this so young. I'm in my 40's and have more experience to back me up. You sound confident, strong, clear headed and educated and I think that helped you a lot.  It's a live and learn type situation. We're living in a great age to help us with our health but unfortunately we're living in the information age where everyone's an expert, not enough is tested and a little information can be a dangerous thing. People are going to experiment and suffer the results. Or learn something new too! That's the good part. For me, I'm managing and making sure that GABA never leaves my brain alone undefended again. It's not a nice world when your brain is thrown into an abyss and lacks any priority. It's a bit like being a vegetable but a vegetable that also has to do stuff, like work and try and enjoy itself now and then.

 

I'm not perfect now but then I wasn't before anyway so.....! Some days I feel great and there's no problem at all. Some days there are but nothing like before. Not even close. It's a gradual thing.

 

I would take the probiotic route and combine it with L-theanine or green tea extract. I don't know exactly what L-theanine in green tea does and I don't think anyone else does either. It doesn't work directly on GABA but it might have a more indirect influence. I also don't know what the probiotics are doing but they're doing something. Something to GABA, maybe serotonin too. I would also try and get some undenatured whey protein, possibly with NAC as well. A good way to stimulate glutathione. Glutathione is a like miracle molecule. You want to restore balance as much as possible and glutathione will help. There's several studies showing it to be a neuromodulator and having anxiolytic-like effects. Glutathione seems to love balance.

 

I'm not an expert. I'm recommending things I know are very likely to help and above all are extremely safe. I know being safe is something that you want to do.

 

I also have a friend who's having the exact same list of symptoms right now. Kind of weird, I think.

 

BTW, I love this site and come to it often but I only finally joined to answer your post, so you got that going for you!

 

Congratulations on your engagement. I'm sure you'll be able to enjoy your wedding.

 

If you know that I'm engaged, then you've definitely done your internet homework on me since I don't think I've posted about that at all, here.

I'm certainly as desperate as I can possibly be. I've seen ~20 doctors at this point of all different types, and not a single one has any clue what's going on. I have yet to see an immunologist or toxicologist and will try to make that happen, but I'm not at all hopeful that they'll have any clue, either.

 

I can tell you that it doesn't feel like I'm going to be alive much longer. It really feels like my brain and nervous system are massively dysfunctional and getting worse; the everyday agony just worsens without any end in sight. It's reading the stories of people who were in similar situations (although due to different reasons like benzodiazepine withdrawal, SSRI withdrawal, fluoroquinolones, etc.) but ultimately got better that gives me a bit of hope in this nightmare.

 

The digestion issues you've mentioned have been there the whole time throughout all of this. Horrible gas, diarrhea, heartburn, and general issues with digestion have been plaguing me the entire time, but I'm not yet convinced that it's a matter of my gut microbiome so much as it is a matter of nervous dysregulation. Nonetheless, I do think that probiotics are worth trying as it's a relatively low-risk remedy to try out. I just ordered the highest-recommended one on Amazon and will give it a try.

Thanks so much for your suggestions and for your story. I'm very glad to know that you're doing better and am extremely curious as to what exactly was going on internally that led to your health issues. Seems very strange that b-12, omega-3, and melatonin could cause that by any mechanism, and it definitely piques my curiosity.

[eon]

Any drugs you may have taken that you forgot to mention? Did you take any sleeping pill like diphenhydramine? Something isn't adding up here. Although preg and DHEA combo was bad enough, I can't pinpoint the culprit here. Were you taking compounds all at the same time? Were you on other drugs legal or illegal at that time? Marijuana, steroids, etc.

 

Regarding B12 intake was is cyanoco or methylco? I've read of info. somewhere that a dose of B12 stays in the liver for up to 2 years (I forgot the exact numbers it could be somewhere close), so I'm not sure if we all should be taking it daily? Although I take it daily at 5000mcg methylco.

[StevesPetRat]

This is similar though not identical to my symptoms after liver damage from an antifungal, 2 alcohol withdrawals, Xanax withdrawal, some infection I couldn't fight off (coworkers got sick too), and massive heartbreak all within a 6 month timespan (July was the 1 year anniversary of the start of my "troubles"). All roads lead to CNS dysfunction, I guess is what I'm saying. I tried many many things, and am still far, far from 100%, but I have a solid 3 or 4 hours a day when I feel sorta like myself again, and that's not nothing. I'm guessing you massively overproduced cortisol from all the precursors you took in.

So here's what was effective, roughly in chronological order of discovery. YMMV
High dose niacinamide - up to 2 g a day
Antiinflammatories: mangosteen, fish and flax oil, n-acetylglucosamine, MSM
Brain antioxidants: astaxanthin, blueberries, vitamin E, c60oo
Gut repair: cal/mag butyrate, align probiotic, an absurdly restrictive diet, colostrum

Don't waste your time with doctors. The BEST thing they will do for you is nothing. At worst you'll be put on meds with a slew of additional side effects, and little chance of repairing anything.

Oh yes, I was pretty sure I would be dead by May back in March. Luckily (?) that wasn't the case.

P.S. stress messes up your microbiome -- and of course I can't find the study now

Edited by StevesPetRat, 26 September 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[eon]

Steve, did you happen to use preg and DHEA? The OP seem to be giving both a bad name but I think it has something to do with other things not anything to do with preg or DHEA but it just happened to have been taken at the wrong time when the OP's symptoms appeared but may have been actually caused by something else.

[FocusPocus]

I've been using 3-4mg sublingual micronized Preg for 2 weeks now.

 

Havent noticed any side effects , nor anything for that matter.

 

Hey its the lowest possible dose. Im just taking it for placebo! 

[markymark]

Hello all,

 

I don't want to brag, that I am an MD etc...., however this thread prompts me to say something.

I am prescribing DHEA and Pregnenolone for 20 years now.

 

For a, say a 55 y old female teacher who is close to burnout due to 25 years of hard work in noisy classrooms, with a DHEA-Sulfate level of, say 55 µg/dl (Normal range for a healthy twentysomething female: 250-400), 5 mg to 25 mg/day of DHEA can be a real bliss (same goes for Pregnenolone). I could elaborate longer on adrenal pro-hormones. E.g. if thyroid is hypo and untreated and not checked, everybody wonders why DHEA does not work.... so fix thyroid at the same time.

Then, DHEA given to someone in his/her fifties, with exausted adrenals makes a lot of sense.

However, for a 26 y old male, there is, in 99 % of cases, no reason to take DHEA / Preg.

 

The message on DHEA and Pregnenolone is very simple: First measure blood levels, then decide as to whether it is a good idea to take DHEA and / or Preg

 

best to all

mm

Edited by markymark, 26 September 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[erraticpattern]

Any drugs you may have taken that you forgot to mention? Did you take any sleeping pill like diphenhydramine? Something isn't adding up here. Although preg and DHEA combo was bad enough, I can't pinpoint the culprit here. Were you taking compounds all at the same time? Were you on other drugs legal or illegal at that time? Marijuana, steroids, etc.

 

Regarding B12 intake was is cyanoco or methylco? I've read of info. somewhere that a dose of B12 stays in the liver for up to 2 years (I forgot the exact numbers it could be somewhere close), so I'm not sure if we all should be taking it daily? Although I take it daily at 5000mcg methylco.

 

You keep using that "something isn't adding up" phrase, even with regard to my doctor prescribing OTC medications (which is an extremely common practice), but I'm really not sure what it is you're driving at.

No, there are no other drugs in the equation and absolutely no change in my regimen whatsoever excepting the addition of pregnenolone and DHEA. I already answered you on this. I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I don't use supplements other than fish oil and vitamin D3 which I've been using for over ten years.

 

Whether or not things add up for your current knowledge base, I have no doubt whatsoever about what the cause of all of this has been. I reacted to the very first dose of pregnenolone MLM and DHEA. From the first time I took them, I could feel alterations in my brain chemistry that were very disturbing. A few of the first symptoms I noticed were extreme shortness of breath (even though my oxygen levels themselves were normal), random panic attacks, tinnitus, depersonalization/derealization, and general alterations in consciousness. I stayed in contact with my doctor throughout all of this while being reassured that this is a perfectly acceptable reaction and likely just my own body "optimizing". Within the first two weeks, there were several days on which I forgot to take my morning dose and, unsurprisingly, I felt perfectly fine and normal on those days until, like clockwork, things started getting bad an hour or so after taking my pregnenolone MLM and DHEA. I've even compiled a list of many others who have reported the exact same kind of reactions to pregnenolone supplementation, but my case is unique in that I stayed on them for an entire month in spite of my reaction because I was following directions from my doctor.

My doctor even told me to double my dose after the second week. The first time I took that double dose, things got exponentially worse. I only lasted on that dose for 5 days since I was rendered completely non-functional and bedridden. I e-mailed my doctor about the reaction, and he said to just cut the dose back down to the original, which I did. I continued going through hell for another week or so, taking the pregnenolone and DHEA every day, until I finally couldn't handle it any longer and I dropped them, but, by this point, the damage had already been done.

As for the other thing you keep wondering about (which I also already answered), the rationale behind prescribing both pregnenolone and DHEA was to prevent the conversion of pregnenolone to DHEA so that the preg would go down the glucocorticoid pathway, while the DHEA supplement itself would take care of its own pathway. Regardless of whether or not they should be prescribed together, that is the reason that they were in my case.

Edited by erraticpattern, 26 September 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[erraticpattern]

This is similar though not identical to my symptoms after liver damage from an antifungal, 2 alcohol withdrawals, Xanax withdrawal, some infection I couldn't fight off (coworkers got sick too), and massive heartbreak all within a 6 month timespan (July was the 1 year anniversary of the start of my "troubles"). All roads lead to CNS dysfunction, I guess is what I'm saying. I tried many many things, and am still far, far from 100%, but I have a solid 3 or 4 hours a day when I feel sorta like myself again, and that's not nothing. I'm guessing you massively overproduced cortisol from all the precursors you took in.

So here's what was effective, roughly in chronological order of discovery. YMMV
High dose niacinamide - up to 2 g a day
Antiinflammatories: mangosteen, fish and flax oil, n-acetylglucosamine, MSM
Brain antioxidants: astaxanthin, blueberries, vitamin E, c60oo
Gut repair: cal/mag butyrate, align probiotic, an absurdly restrictive diet, colostrum

Don't waste your time with doctors. The BEST thing they will do for you is nothing. At worst you'll be put on meds with a slew of additional side effects, and little chance of repairing anything.

Oh yes, I was pretty sure I would be dead by May back in March. Luckily (?) that wasn't the case.

P.S. stress messes up your microbiome -- and of course I can't find the study now

 

As of yesterday, I started adding in vitamin C (took 2 grams yesterday) and probiotics in the form of yogurt and kefir, and I have a probiotic supplement along the way.

 

I can't say that you and I are going through the same thing, but best of luck to you, anyhow, and I hope things end up resolving for you.

[UniqueNewYork]

I strongly believe you will be alive and will come out of it, largely because they found no trace of a physical cause or damage. This is if you've had an MRI or catscan.

 

What you took may have been contaminated with something or there's a remote chance you had a genetic susceptibility to having an extreme reaction to it. Or an inherent weakness because of a prior underlying stress or illness that was unrecognized and undiagnosed.

 

I did mention that I'd seen you copied and pasted your complaint to several sites. I simply copied and pasted two sentences and typed it into google and saw it appear on about 4-5 sites. Each one had slightly different details, like your engagement. I was intrigued by your story and the other site I read it on was something of a dead end so I looked for more and here I found it.

 

Someone mentioned niacin which I also did take on my road to recovery. Also inositol was another. They did seem to help me.

 

It seems your body is lacking something that it needs right now and not being able find it or break it down. That, or getting something it doesn't want. If you can't find cause the best you can do is aid the system the best way you can. Amino acids are another avenue to look in. Taken in an isolated form, certain AA's can be amazing for many things neurological.

 

The reason I mentioned the gut bacteria is because of the research being done on the connection between bacteria and the vasovagal nerve. The ability of some strains of bacteria to reduce inflammation, protect the brain and help to regulate neurotransmitters ( or possibly disrupt them as well ). It's all very early and not well understood, but, this could be a major help and I would take it seriously as a treament. Longum and helveticus especially.

 

I'd like to know the exact symptoms you're having right now. Hour to hour, day to day. It might help to figure out which system isn't working and how to approach treating it. I'll get on this detective story the best I can.

 

I'll tell you one thing I do know. An abrupt violent and sudden change in neurological health usually isn't going to kill you unless you've had a brain injury, been poisoned, had an aneurysm or a stroke. Those are physical, visible changes that would be seen. Insidious disease usually progresses slowly especially neurodegenerative ones. They don't appear  suddenly. If you have had a sudden onset, you'll usually get better, albeit slowly after the insult or injury. If you have been poisoned, it is slow acting as you're still alive. Something could be accumulative but that would have to be constant in nature overtime. I'd look at your environment BUT you may have a difficult time locating it. If you could completely remove yourself from the environment you're in for two weeks and you start to get better, than that might the reason. It's just not 100% accurate. If you went back into that environment and you got worse, you could then be a little  more certain.

 

Some people have said it doesn't add up, that's because it doesn't. There's no answer for it yet. It's very cryptic until you get some more clues.

 

Please give some more details. Don't leave this thread hanging. I'm going to be following it.

 

 

 

 

[StevesPetRat]

Steve, did you happen to use preg and DHEA? The OP seem to be giving both a bad name but I think it has something to do with other things not anything to do with preg or DHEA but it just happened to have been taken at the wrong time when the OP's symptoms appeared but may have been actually caused by something else.

My guess based on the reaction was a surge of cortisol, especially with the co-administration of DHEA. If so, OP and I may have more in common; I had 90% of the symptoms of Cushing's syndrome for 2 months, though my doctor refused to actually test my cortisol levels.

I do take a small dose of pregnenolone now in the AM (12.5 mg sublingual) in an effort to help restore my circadian rhythm. It didn't have anything to do with the original problem in my case, though.

[eon]

NOW has a product called potassium citrate that is to "support nervous system". Anyone here tried this? I've tried the Dr. Vita brand before without even knowing potassium citrate is to support nervous system. Curious if this may help you guys with your issues? My main use for it is for arrhythmias, it simply calms my heart beat down whether from stress or caffeine use but it has other uses as well, like great for kidney stones, etc. 

[erraticpattern]

I strongly believe you will be alive and will come out of it, largely because they found no trace of a physical cause or damage. This is if you've had an MRI or catscan.

 

What you took may have been contaminated with something or there's a remote chance you had a genetic susceptibility to having an extreme reaction to it. Or an inherent weakness because of a prior underlying stress or illness that was unrecognized and undiagnosed.

 

I did mention that I'd seen you copied and pasted your complaint to several sites. I simply copied and pasted two sentences and typed it into google and saw it appear on about 4-5 sites. Each one had slightly different details, like your engagement. I was intrigued by your story and the other site I read it on was something of a dead end so I looked for more and here I found it.

 

Someone mentioned niacin which I also did take on my road to recovery. Also inositol was another. They did seem to help me.

 

It seems your body is lacking something that it needs right now and not being able find it or break it down. That, or getting something it doesn't want. If you can't find cause the best you can do is aid the system the best way you can. Amino acids are another avenue to look in. Taken in an isolated form, certain AA's can be amazing for many things neurological.

 

The reason I mentioned the gut bacteria is because of the research being done on the connection between bacteria and the vasovagal nerve. The ability of some strains of bacteria to reduce inflammation, protect the brain and help to regulate neurotransmitters ( or possibly disrupt them as well ). It's all very early and not well understood, but, this could be a major help and I would take it seriously as a treament. Longum and helveticus especially.

 

I'd like to know the exact symptoms you're having right now. Hour to hour, day to day. It might help to figure out which system isn't working and how to approach treating it. I'll get on this detective story the best I can.

 

I'll tell you one thing I do know. An abrupt violent and sudden change in neurological health usually isn't going to kill you unless you've had a brain injury, been poisoned, had an aneurysm or a stroke. Those are physical, visible changes that would be seen. Insidious disease usually progresses slowly especially neurodegenerative ones. They don't appear  suddenly. If you have had a sudden onset, you'll usually get better, albeit slowly after the insult or injury. If you have been poisoned, it is slow acting as you're still alive. Something could be accumulative but that would have to be constant in nature overtime. I'd look at your environment BUT you may have a difficult time locating it. If you could completely remove yourself from the environment you're in for two weeks and you start to get better, than that might the reason. It's just not 100% accurate. If you went back into that environment and you got worse, you could then be a little  more certain.

 

Some people have said it doesn't add up, that's because it doesn't. There's no answer for it yet. It's very cryptic until you get some more clues.

 

Please give some more details. Don't leave this thread hanging. I'm going to be following it.

 

A continuing environmentally-related poisoning is extremely unlikely. I've moved two separate times over the past 6 months, with one of those moves being coast-to-coast completely across the country, all while things have continued to worsen.

I'm very aware of the recent research being done on the gut microbiome. I've actually been involved in some of the research analyzing the differences in genetic material from one gut microbiome to the next and correlating such differences with markers of physical and mental health. There's some really interesting data we and others have come up with, and I agree that taking a proactive stance on my own gut health is a wise decision. Truth be told, the only reason I haven't yet is due to having developed a paranoia of new foods, supplements, and medications. My CNS is so insanely sensitive to everything right now that I'm left terrified of introducing new substances into my body. Back in June, I even had an extreme reaction to aspirin which I was originally confident would provide a little bit of relief. This hypersensitivity to food, supplements, and medications is another symptom that, like I've mentioned before, is indicative of neural receptor-level dysfunction as seen in benzodiazepine or SSRI withdrawal.

 

The following is a list of individual symptoms I've kept a record of, and every one of the following symptoms has been experienced with extreme intensity:

 

-headache -brain zaps -lightheadedness -chest pain -upper back pain -lower back pain -upper abdominal pain -lower abdominal pain -generalized body pain -vertigo -dizziness -nausea -muscle spasms -myoclonus -heart palpitations -anorexia -anxiety/terror -akathisia -intrusive thoughts -depression -emotional lability -déjà vu -depersonalization -derealization -suicidal ideation -forgetfulness -stupor -sleep problems -panic attacks -hypnagogic psychotic episodes -neuropathy -tinnitus -pressure in ears -vision problems -ocular pain -shortness of breath -throat constriction -sneezing and runny nose -coughing -feeling very cold -feeling very hot -metallic taste in mouth -phantom burning smells

-tremor