84 replies to this topic

[ceridwen]

Except people don't know what you are talking about. We don't know these names.

[Michael Rian]

Hello Everyone,

 

I know this very interesting thread is aimed towards natural 5-HT1A Agonists/Antagonists, but I was hoping to get your knowledgeable opinion on the prescription antidepressant Vortoxetine.

 

It is a partial agonist/near-full agonist of 5-HT1A.  I have just been prescribed this medication from my Doctor and I am very wary of trying it.  I am trying to convince myself it might help my Depression and Cognitive issues.  Besides being phobic of medication, getting worse, and side effects, I am hoping this may be something beneficial. 

 

Would anyone here have any opinion on this drug?  I would really appreciate it.  I thought I would ask here instead of creating a new thread since this is regarding the 5-HT1A agonist.

 

Thank you.

[Metagene]

Except people don't know what you are talking about. We don't know these names.

 

Well those are the names used in the studies.

[Area-1255]

Hello Everyone,

 

I know this very interesting thread is aimed towards natural 5-HT1A Agonists/Antagonists, but I was hoping to get your knowledgeable opinion on the prescription antidepressant Vortoxetine.

 

It is a partial agonist/near-full agonist of 5-HT1A.  I have just been prescribed this medication from my Doctor and I am very wary of trying it.  I am trying to convince myself it might help my Depression and Cognitive issues.  Besides being phobic of medication, getting worse, and side effects, I am hoping this may be something beneficial. 

 

Would anyone here have any opinion on this drug?  I would really appreciate it.  I thought I would ask here instead of creating a new thread since this is regarding the 5-HT1A agonist.

 

Thank you.

No problem. 

I'll sum it up as neatly as possible. 

Below is the mechanism of action/pharmacodynamics of the drug.

The benefits of the 5-HT(1) agonist property can be multiple, like I said earlier in this thread - whether an antagonist or agonist is better is dependent on the subject/patient in question.  I don't agree with certain anti-depressant drugs, actually a majority as most are either toxic or have negative neuro-endocrine effects..however, this one isn't that bad - and I'm a hardcore skeptic - and love empirical / functional data.

 

The 5-HT1A agonism is a beneficial property for those who have a history of social type anxiety - but conversely, it may have a negative effect or no benefit in those with obsessive-compulsive type anxiety... although studies are mixed - and some show that agonism may help OCD patients as well.

The 5-HT1A agonist property will improve beta-endorphin levels and reduce inflammation to some extent, and increase pain threshold - it will also reduce nausea and this is consistent with the other properties of the drug (5-HT3 antagonism has additional anti-nausea effects) - the 5-HT1B partial agonist property is tricky - because it depends on which partition of the receptor is being agonized and which is being abated / attenuated.

 

The pro-histamine properties likely stem from it's 5-HT7 antagonism - since serotonin 5-HT7 receptors promote cyclic AMP  - and cyclic AMP reduces histaminergic reactions - the blockade of that serotonin receptor leads to less cAMP which then leads to more histamine. This is a HUGE contrast to most anti-depressants which act against histamine - and therefore this property may lead to increased wakefulness as opposed to the general lethargic feeling that comes with many other anti-depressants.

 

Additionally, this drug blocks norepinephrine reuptake as well as serotonin reuptake...however, given the blockade of 5-HT3/5-HT7 there should be less anxiety caused from the serotonin buildup, the drug would shift the enhanced serotonin to 5-HT2A/2B/2C, 5-HT4 and probably 5-HT5A as well....

 

This is likely to contribute to overall efficacy of the drug and may lead to potentiation of euphoria caused by hallucinogenics as opposed to AD drugs which downregulate the type 2 receptors.

 

IN SUMMARY , the following benefits are of VORTIOXETINE

• Anti-nausea (less sickness, may reduce all forms of nausea)
• Pro-histamine / No or less Lethargy than other antidepressants
• Improves cognitive function as opposed to decrease it as with SSRI's.
• Anti-Nociceptive (decrease feeling of pain , due to 1A stimulation)
• Increased stimulation and quality of life.
• Potentiation of dopaminergics (and hallucinogens) as opposed to OPPOSITION as with other anti-depressants.
• Normalized cortisol release (stabilized, but not necessarily decreased, due to 5-HT 7 blockade)

 

 

                                The NEGATIVES of the drug I would hypothesize to be the following.

•  Possible migraine issues in a small** number of individuals which can be offset / alleviated by adding a 5-HT2A antagonist.
• Paradoxically worsened anxiety due to indirect 5-HT2A agonism.
• Diarrhea due to serotonin shifting to 5-HT4R's - this can be alleviated with L-Lysine.
• Changes in body temperature with a tendency to hyperthermia but possibly colder in some individuals depending on diet, genetics, exercise level etc.
• If any decrease in libido or sexual function occurs, it is because of the indirect 5-HT2A/2C agonism, although the 1A agonist property may be anti-erectile* and therefore not so great for men. It depends on genetics and what your neurotransmitter profile looks like overall - as some men report the opposite from 1A agonists = higher libido and sexual function.

 

 

 

Vortioxetine is a so-called "serotonin modulator and stimulator".^[22] It has been shown to possess the following pharmacological actions:^[1][23][24]

• Serotonin transporter (SERT) blocker (i.e. serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SRI)) — K_i (binding affinity) = 1.6 nM, IC₅₀ = 5.4 nM
• Norepinephrine transporter (NET) blocker — K_i = 113 nM
• 5-HT_1A receptor high-efficacy partial agonist/near-full agonist — K_i = 15 nM, IA = 80%
• 5-HT_1B receptor partial agonist — K_i = 33 nM
• 5-HT_1D receptor antagonist — K_i = 54 nM
• 5-HT_3A receptor antagonist — K_i = 3.7 nM
• 5-HT₇ receptor antagonist — K_i = 19 nM

Vortioxetine also has affinity for the β₁-adrenergic receptor (K_i = 46 nM), though any actions at this site are unlikely to contribute to its therapeutic effects and likely only to contribute to side effects.^[23]

It has also been shown that vortioxetine increases extracellular levels of acetylcholine and histamine in the rat medial prefrontal cortex following contextual fear conditioning and may be useful in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.^[21]

 

Edited by Area-1255, 10 April 2015 - 02:22 AM.

[Area-1255]

Whoever put pointless, timewasting on the above was clearly a troll. lmao

Edited by Area-1255, 15 April 2015 - 02:34 AM.

[Flex]

I wouldnt look that much on this, it happens to me sometimes too.

 

Anyway: Zinc reduces the functionallity of 5-ht1a receptors by a negative allosteric mechanism.

the downside is that its also lesser affected by antagonists

 

Allosteric modulation of 5-HT(1A) receptors by zinc: Binding studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18951909

 

I´m unsure whether this was allready mentioned nor whether its actually strong enough or, respectively, is too poisinous at effective doses.

 

What are Your thoughts on this ?

Edited by Flex, 18 April 2015 - 08:18 PM.

[Area-1255]

I wouldnt look that much on this, it happens to me sometimes too.

 

Anyway: Zinc reduces the functionallity of 5-ht1a receptors by a negative allosteric mechanism.

the downside is that its also lesser affected by antagonists

 

Allosteric modulation of 5-HT(1A) receptors by zinc: Binding studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18951909

 

I´m unsure whether this was allready mentioned nor whether its actually strong enough or, respectively, is too poisinous at effective doses.

 

What are Your thoughts on this ?

Very interesting, thanks for finding this!

 

My opinion is that Zinc >30 mg can be toxic, it should be taken at a maximum of 25-28mg / day. 

Too much can cause copper deficiency and possibly neurological damage at 50mg / day over extended periods of time. 

The results of your posted study indicate Zinc is a superior antagonist at the receptor, the question is whether it is clinically effective and whether the other properties may over ride this particular effect.

 

For example, 5-HT1A antagonism leads to increased glutamatergic transmission, while Zinc has a separate property of blocking NMDA related activity.

So the properties seem to contradict each other in a way. With that being said, it may be a good way to augment racetams and anti-dementia drugs.

 

 

Biophys J. 2011 Apr 20;100(8):1910-8. doi: 10.1016/j.bpj.2011.02.042.

Zinc effects on NMDA receptor gating kinetics.

Amico-Ruvio SA1, Murthy SE, Smith TP, Popescu GK.

Author information

 

Abstract

Zinc accumulates in the synaptic vesicles of certain glutamatergic forebrain neurons and modulates neuronal excitability and synaptic plasticity by multiple poorly understood mechanisms. Zinc directly inhibits NMDA-sensitive glutamate-gated channels by two separate mechanisms: high-affinity binding to N-terminal domains of GluN2A subunits reduces channel open probability, and low-affinity voltage-dependent binding to pore-lining residues blocks the channel. Insight into the high-affinity allosteric effect has been hampered by the receptor's complex gating; multiple, sometimes coupled, modulatory mechanisms; and practical difficulties in avoiding transient block by residual Mg(2+). To sidestep these challenges, we examined how nanomolar zinc concentrations changed the gating kinetics of individual block-resistant receptors. We found that block-insensitive channels had lower intrinsic open probabilities but retained high sensitivity to zinc inhibition. Binding of zinc to these receptors resulted in longer closures and shorter openings within bursts of activity but had no effect on interburst intervals. Based on kinetic modeling of these data, we conclude that zinc-bound receptors have higher energy barriers to opening and less stable open states. We tested this model for its ability to predict zinc-dependent changes in macroscopic responses and to infer the impact of nanomolar zinc concentrations on synaptic currents mediated by 2A-type NMDA receptors.

Copyright © 2011 Biophysical Society. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

PMID:   21504727   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]    PMCID:   PMC3077707     Free PMC Article

[Flex]

Damn, Your right didnt know that NMDA activation plays a role in sexuallity

 

Mating activates NMDA receptors in the medial preoptic area of male rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17907833

 

An NMDA Antagonist Impairs Copulation and the Experience-Induced
Enhancement of Male Sexual Behavior in the Rat

http://www.elaine-m-..._antagonist.pdf

 

Btw: tried evodia rutaecarpa a few hours ago but I´m unsure about the cause of the effects.

 

Berberine and evodiamine influence serotonin transporter (5-HTT) expression via the 5-HTT-linked polymorphic region.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21647174

 

Took 200mg of a 7:1 extract (which smelt like burnt rubber O.O)

and felt stimulated with a bit anxiety and addicted afterwards (TRPV activation?) as well as a headache (also afterwards),

though the sexual effects werent that pronounced as from St.Johns wort or on the morning after Nelumbo nucifera.

 

I´ve also taken Albizzia (250mg of 6:1) a few hours after evoida and the sexuallity was actually down.

 

Will take the evodia (/ evodiamine) again  tomorrow.

 

Edit:

bought also a zinc supplement will try it for sleep + small to medium sexual impairments . I wonder whether it will help with my sleep issues, because 45mg mitrazapine isnt that helpful.

 

If someone is interrested, ursolic acid is a TRPV antagonist and THC is an agonist

Ursolic acid from Agastache mexicana aerial parts produces antinociceptive activity involving TRPV1 receptors, cGMP and a serotonergic synergism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23932918

 

Edited by Flex, 18 April 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[Area-1255]

Damn, Your right didnt know that NMDA activation plays a role in sexuallity

 

Mating activates NMDA receptors in the medial preoptic area of male rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17907833

 

 

 

Edit: bought also a zinc supplement will try it for sleep. I wonder whether it will help with my sleep issues, because 45mg mitrazapine isnt that helpful.

Yep, NMDA-receptors are also needed for nitric oxide synthesis and to counter-act psychosis caused by multiple substances.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12577322

http://jcs.biologist...3/2627.full.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14643384

Mianserin and mirtazapine are strong male hormone enhancers (due to cortisol blockade), but without 5-HT(1) antagonism, their benefit is limited.

[Flex]

wow good to know.

 

I´ve experienced actually some "alpha" enhancement (so to say) through Testforce 2

which contained: Sarcosine, Aspargic acid and calcium

( I guess I´ve fried a few neurons with this..)

 

I believe that I have a 5-HTT polymorphism or something like that, which increases Serotonine.

If my assumption is right, might be my Testosterone dampened by this ?

and is the best way to elevate it to block the 5-ht1a receptor or do You know any alternatives ?

 

I´ve smoked pot in the adolescence and assume that this might also be bad, alone through the 5-ht1a activation by the pot.

Interrestingly, I´ve got through Humanobol / Humanofort more breast hairs lol

What are You thoughts on this one ?

 

Edited by Flex, 18 April 2015 - 10:14 PM.

[Area-1255]

wow good to know.

 

I´ve experienced actually some "alpha" enhancement (so to say) through Testforce 2

which contained: Sarcosine, Aspargic acid and calcium

( I guess I´ve fried a few neurons with this..)

 

I believe that I have a 5-HTT polymorphism or something like that, which increases Serotonine.

If my assumption is right, might be my Testosterone dampened by this ?

and is the best way to elevate it to block the 5-ht1a receptor or do You know any alternatives ?

 

I´ve smoked pot in the adolescence and assume that this might also be bad, alone through the 5-ht1a activation by the pot.

Interrestingly, I´ve got through Humanobol / Humanofort more breast hairs lol

What are You thoughts on this one ?

Yes, elevated serotonin will decrease testosterone, dopamine and many other chemical messengers/hormones...but we are talking clinical elevations. 

For some, a few points up on the chart will matter enough to produce a 'crashed'  feeling from serotonin , for others, more significant elevations will dampen cognitive functions, libido , quality of life etc

 

The main mechanisms by which serotonin decreases sex hormones are.

• Increased cortisol.
• Increased prolactin.
• Decreased dopaminergic signaling and increased recycling of dopamine.
• Inhibition of glutamate, nitric oxide and other messengers which stimulate the pituitary gland.

 

Which is why serotonin is really not something most people, should aspire to elevate. Also, estrogen tends to show both some inverse and positive correlation to how our brains use serotonin, for this reason..women tend to get more benefit in some circumstances from serotonin....however, estrogen can also worsen or cause serotonergic dysfunction in men. 

[Flex]

Thanks

[Flex]

I had that evening a nice boner    so I dont think that NMDA inhibition by Zinc plays a role

but took several other things, so I cant say whether there was an interaction:

~ 60mg Telmisartan for the increased blood pressure by 30mg Zinc

6 pills Humanobol/ humanofort

~300mg albizzia jurublissin (7:1) -> didnt noticed that much compared to ~ 200mg Evodia 7:1 extract (evodiamine) a few hours before

45mg Miratzapine (as usual)

 

 

[Area-1255]

I had that evening a nice boner    so I dont think that NMDA inhibition by Zinc plays a role

but took several other things, so I cant say whether there was an interaction:

~ 60mg Telmisartan for the increased blood pressure by 30mg Zinc

6 pills Humanobol/ humanofort

~300mg albizzia jurublissin (7:1) -> didnt noticed that much compared to ~ 200mg Evodia 7:1 extract (evodiamine) a few hours before

45mg Miratzapine (as usual)

Interesting, thanks for the report. 

Are you concerned that Zinc may be blunting some of the pro 1A effects of Albizzia, though?

[Flex]

It was actually my purpose to increase/disinhibit the sexual effects.

I´ve mixed this because I´ve believed that Zinc affects only the post receptors, so that I would, with them two, decrease the activation of all post and pre 5-ht receptors.

[normalizing]

flex, no dissrespect buddy, i usually find you informative and all, but taking zinc will always increase sex drive no matter what. not sure what you were thinking really and why are you surprised either. i assume you have learned this from the past, zinc is always one of the first supplements people experiment with because super cheap and easy to acquire. anyway, you will be in for a shock eventually. keep taking it!

Edited by normalizing, 25 April 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[Area-1255]

flex, no dissrespect buddy, i usually find you informative and all, but taking zinc will always increase sex drive no matter what. not sure what you were thinking really and why are you surprised either. i assume you have learned this from the past, zinc is always one of the first supplements people experiment with because super cheap and easy to acquire. anyway, you will be in for a shock eventually. keep taking it!

ALERT : If you disagree with normalizing he will dislike and neg-rep your posts. Beware. (rolls eyes)

[stan08]

Based on the study linked below, it appears Silexan (lavender extract) may be a good 5-HT1A agonist. I recently started taking it for anxiety and depression.

"Serotonin-1A receptor binding potential was shown to be significantly reduced following the intake of Silexan compared with placebo in 2 large clusters encompassing the temporal gyrus, the fusiform gyrus and the hippocampus on one hand as well as the insula and anterior cingulate cortex on the other hand."

http://ijnp.oxfordjo...pyu063.full.pdf

Edited by stan08, 25 April 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[Area-1255]

Based on the study linked below, it appears Silexan (lavender extract) may be a good 5-HT1A agonist. I recently started taking it for anxiety and depression.

"Serotonin-1A receptor binding potential was shown to be significantly reduced following the intake of Silexan compared with placebo in 2 large clusters encompassing the temporal gyrus, the fusiform gyrus and the hippocampus on one hand as well as the insula and anterior cingulate cortex on the other hand."

http://ijnp.oxfordjo...pyu063.full.pdf

Activating that serotonin receptor in particular can also lead to insomnia and delayed REMS. Although for some, the anxiety reduction might be pronounced enough to do the opposite..but agonists cause me insomnia personally.

 

 

 

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v15/n2/pdf/1380452a.pdf?origin=publication_detail
Ipsapirone, a 5-HT_1A Agonist, Suppresses REM Sleep Equally in Unmedicated Depressed Patients and Normal Controls

J Christian Gillin, Jin-Wook Sohn, Stephen M Stahl, Michael Lardon, John Kelsoe, Mark Rapaport, Caroline Ruiz and Shah Golshan

Abstract

To determine whether ipsapirone, a 5-HT_1A agonist, differentially suppresses REM sleep in depressed patients compared with normal controls, we administered placebo, ipsapirone 10 mg, or ipsapirone 20 mg in a double-blind, random order before bedtime in 18 unmedicated patients with depression and 16 age-matched, gender-matched normal controls. Compared to placebo, ipsapirone affected REM sleep measures equally in depressed patients and controls as follows: (1) increased REM latency; (2) reduced total REM percent, REM time, and REM density; and (3) delayed the onset of REM sleep. In addition, ipsapirone had similar effects in patients and controls in other sleep measures: (1) reduced total sleep time; (2) delayed sleep onset time; and (3) increased sleep latency, stage 1%, stage 2%, the amount of stage 3 & 4 sleep in the first non-REM period, and wake time after sleep onset. The study does not support the hypothesis that downregulated 5-HT_1Areceptors mediate the pathophysiology or sleep disturbances of depression, although further studies are needed as these patients did not differ from controls in baseline sleep measures.

To read this article in full you may need to log in, make a payment or gain access through a site license (see right).

Edited by Area-1255, 25 April 2015 - 06:36 PM.

[88LS]

These rating emoticon stuff is causing so much noise on these forums. I don't understand why the moderators don't step in, it's getting ridiculous...

[Area-1255]

These rating emoticon stuff is causing so much noise on these forums. I don't understand why the moderators don't step in, it's getting ridiculous...

Especially since trolls enjoy abusing "the system". 

[stan08]

Based on the study linked below, it appears Silexan (lavender extract) may be a good 5-HT1A agonist. I recently started taking it for anxiety and depression.

"Serotonin-1A receptor binding potential was shown to be significantly reduced following the intake of Silexan compared with placebo in 2 large clusters encompassing the temporal gyrus, the fusiform gyrus and the hippocampus on one hand as well as the insula and anterior cingulate cortex on the other hand."

http://ijnp.oxfordjo...pyu063.full.pdf

Activating that serotonin receptor in particular can also lead to insomnia and delayed REMS. Although for some, the anxiety reduction might be pronounced enough to do the opposite..but agonists cause me insomnia personally.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v15/n2/pdf/1380452a.pdf?origin=publication_detail
Ipsapirone, a 5-HT_1A Agonist, Suppresses REM Sleep Equally in Unmedicated Depressed Patients and Normal Controls
J Christian Gillin, Jin-Wook Sohn, Stephen M Stahl, Michael Lardon, John Kelsoe, Mark Rapaport, Caroline Ruiz and Shah Golshan
Abstract
To determine whether ipsapirone, a 5-HT_1A agonist, differentially suppresses REM sleep in depressed patients compared with normal controls, we administered placebo, ipsapirone 10 mg, or ipsapirone 20 mg in a double-blind, random order before bedtime in 18 unmedicated patients with depression and 16 age-matched, gender-matched normal controls. Compared to placebo, ipsapirone affected REM sleep measures equally in depressed patients and controls as follows: (1) increased REM latency; (2) reduced total REM percent, REM time, and REM density; and (3) delayed the onset of REM sleep. In addition, ipsapirone had similar effects in patients and controls in other sleep measures: (1) reduced total sleep time; (2) delayed sleep onset time; and (3) increased sleep latency, stage 1%, stage 2%, the amount of stage 3 & 4 sleep in the first non-REM period, and wake time after sleep onset. The study does not support the hypothesis that downregulated 5-HT_1Areceptors mediate the pathophysiology or sleep disturbances of depression, although further studies are needed as these patients did not differ from controls in baseline sleep measures.
To read this article in full you may need to log in, make a payment or gain access through a site license (see right).

I have noticed in the last few days a little more trouble getting to sleep if I take it too late in the day. Hopefully that side effect will go away or the anxiety and mood benefits be enough to make it an acceptable tradeoff.

[Flex]

flex, no dissrespect buddy, i usually find you informative and all, but taking zinc will always increase sex drive no matter what. not sure what you were thinking really and why are you surprised either. i assume you have learned this from the past, zinc is always one of the first supplements people experiment with because super cheap and easy to acquire. anyway, you will be in for a shock eventually. keep taking it!

 

Thanks, honestly didnt know that. I´ve tried 10mg a few times 2 years ago but didnt noticed much.

 

Will keep on, I´m quiet curious about the shock^^

[Area-1255]

flex, no dissrespect buddy, i usually find you informative and all, but taking zinc will always increase sex drive no matter what. not sure what you were thinking really and why are you surprised either. i assume you have learned this from the past, zinc is always one of the first supplements people experiment with because super cheap and easy to acquire. anyway, you will be in for a shock eventually. keep taking it!

This is a horrible and very reckless generalization, do you realize that zinc at >50 mg / day can cause neurological damage and copper deficiency?

 

Also there's no way to ensure it will always increase sex drive, that's an insane statement to make. Not only does it ignore individual differences, but it also doesn't take into account zinc's ability to inhibit DHT and NMDA activity, both of which properties could actually lead to LESS libido, again, depending on the person.

 

http://articles.lati...inc21-2009dec21

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2872358/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2854917/

http://www.provostum...suspected.shtml

http://www.rinr.fsu....res/metals.html

Edited by Area-1255, 26 April 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[normalizing]

area1255, which type of zinc are you refering to? there are many different types of zinc supplement chelates that only very few or perhaps none work. and toxic levels have not been reported from not a single person on that planet taking zinc supplements even the hard elemental ones. again, which  type of zinc you refer to toxicity problems? i read some articles you posted reffering to zinc cream. what is zinc cream? which elemental zinc is that? some articles seem retracted. i wonder why...

let me quote some from another article you posted "Compared to several other metal ions with similar chemical properties, zinc is relatively harmless. Only exposure to high doses has toxic effects, making acute zinc intoxication a rare event. In addition to acute intoxication, long-term, high-dose zinc supplementation interferes with the uptake of copper"

not only is zinc CALLED harmless, unless megadosed prolong time perhaps 1 year? t doesnt specify time and dose and type of zinc and again, i ask, WHICH TYPE OF ZINC THEY SPEAK OF and whats MEGADOSE? BUT ALSO, they do aknowledge it as less harmful compared to any other metal, and copper being 10x worse than zinc even in minute quantities, i rather take zinc over it.

 

flex, ive tried like many many types of zinc supplements that didnt work. just very few do, and it takes up to 30mg or more to notice effect, never noticed effect at 10mg. Neither any toxicity as area speaks off. Zinc had to be the last one to give me any health problems at megadoses too. To this day i havent seen one single person complain about it either. on the other hand, copper is really bad for you anyway, might as well zinc it out

 

to conclude this, i ask area, you ever taken all types and forms of zinc as i have to compare, review and analyze and CLAIM they do one thing or the other, either work or not work and do they pose toxicity levels or are you going to solely rely on baseless, absolutely lack of informative knowledge, weak, uncontrolled, suspicious and questionable trials off ncbi, WHICH has retracted some for the same dubious reasons i suppose.

 

 

ps. i still dunno what zinc cream is.... is this like some magic cream that was found to cause problems later on in studies? perhaps antioxidant cream. antioxidants are good for you, COMMERCIALLY SPEAKING

Edited by normalizing, 27 April 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[Area-1255]

It's obvious you didn't even fully read my last posts..if you had, you would understand that I was speaking about individuality, and minor biochemical differences that can certainly affect the response to Zinc. 

Let me re-phrase, if someone is glutamate deficient and / or DHT deficient, is ZINC going to help that problem? No, it will likely only make it worse...on the other hand, small amounts won't hurt, but higher amounts are unnecessary and sometimes even problematic for some people.

 

IF however, you keep it in proportion with a small copper supplement, or say, you eat chili with your zinc supplement..you'll probably be fine - since you will be getting enough copper to balance it out.

I've met over 30 people, including family, who have had bad side-effects from higher doses of zinc >50 mg... when I took that amount years ago, I felt very apathetic and I had heart rate changes. With 25 mg / day, it actually had it's benefits, very helpful for concentration etc.. it's just not necessary to go ABOVE that amount.

area1255, which type of zinc are you refering to? there are many different types of zinc supplement chelates that only very few or perhaps none work. and toxic levels have not been reported from not a single person on that planet taking zinc supplements even the hard elemental ones. again, which  type of zinc you refer to toxicity problems? i read some articles you posted reffering to zinc cream. what is zinc cream? which elemental zinc is that? some articles seem retracted. i wonder why...

let me quote some from another article you posted "Compared to several other metal ions with similar chemical properties, zinc is relatively harmless. Only exposure to high doses has toxic effects, making acute zinc intoxication a rare event. In addition to acute intoxication, long-term, high-dose zinc supplementation interferes with the uptake of copper"

not only is zinc CALLED harmless, unless megadosed prolong time perhaps 1 year? t doesnt specify time and dose and type of zinc and again, i ask, WHICH TYPE OF ZINC THEY SPEAK OF and whats MEGADOSE? BUT ALSO, they do aknowledge it as less harmful compared to any other metal, and copper being 10x worse than zinc even in minute quantities, i rather take zinc over it.

 

flex, ive tried like many many types of zinc supplements that didnt work. just very few do, and it takes up to 30mg or more to notice effect, never noticed effect at 10mg. Neither any toxicity as area speaks off. Zinc had to be the last one to give me any health problems at megadoses too. To this day i havent seen one single person complain about it either. on the other hand, copper is really bad for you anyway, might as well zinc it out

 

to conclude this, i ask area, you ever taken all types and forms of zinc as i have to compare, review and analyze and CLAIM they do one thing or the other, either work or not work and do they pose toxicity levels or are you going to solely rely on baseless, absolutely lack of informative knowledge, weak, uncontrolled, suspicious and questionable trials off ncbi, WHICH has retracted some for the same dubious reasons i suppose.

 

 

ps. i still dunno what zinc cream is.... is this like some magic cream that was found to cause problems later on in studies? perhaps antioxidant cream. antioxidants are good for you, COMMERCIALLY SPEAKING

 

[normalizing]

 

It's obvious you didn't even fully read my last posts..if you had, you would understand that I was speaking about individuality, and minor biochemical differences that can certainly affect the response to Zinc. 

Let me re-phrase, if someone is glutamate deficient and / or DHT deficient, is ZINC going to help that problem? No, it will likely only make it worse...on the other hand, small amounts won't hurt, but higher amounts are unnecessary and sometimes even problematic for some people.

 

IF however, you keep it in proportion with a small copper supplement, or say, you eat chili with your zinc supplement..you'll probably be fine - since you will be getting enough copper to balance it out.

I've met over 30 people, including family, who have had bad side-effects from higher doses of zinc >50 mg... when I took that amount years ago, I felt very apathetic and I had heart rate changes. With 25 mg / day, it actually had it's benefits, very helpful for concentration etc.. it's just not necessary to go ABOVE that amount.

area1255, which type of zinc are you refering to? there are many different types of zinc supplement chelates that only very few or perhaps none work. and toxic levels have not been reported from not a single person on that planet taking zinc supplements even the hard elemental ones. again, which  type of zinc you refer to toxicity problems? i read some articles you posted reffering to zinc cream. what is zinc cream? which elemental zinc is that? some articles seem retracted. i wonder why...

let me quote some from another article you posted "Compared to several other metal ions with similar chemical properties, zinc is relatively harmless. Only exposure to high doses has toxic effects, making acute zinc intoxication a rare event. In addition to acute intoxication, long-term, high-dose zinc supplementation interferes with the uptake of copper"

not only is zinc CALLED harmless, unless megadosed prolong time perhaps 1 year? t doesnt specify time and dose and type of zinc and again, i ask, WHICH TYPE OF ZINC THEY SPEAK OF and whats MEGADOSE? BUT ALSO, they do aknowledge it as less harmful compared to any other metal, and copper being 10x worse than zinc even in minute quantities, i rather take zinc over it.

 

flex, ive tried like many many types of zinc supplements that didnt work. just very few do, and it takes up to 30mg or more to notice effect, never noticed effect at 10mg. Neither any toxicity as area speaks off. Zinc had to be the last one to give me any health problems at megadoses too. To this day i havent seen one single person complain about it either. on the other hand, copper is really bad for you anyway, might as well zinc it out

 

to conclude this, i ask area, you ever taken all types and forms of zinc as i have to compare, review and analyze and CLAIM they do one thing or the other, either work or not work and do they pose toxicity levels or are you going to solely rely on baseless, absolutely lack of informative knowledge, weak, uncontrolled, suspicious and questionable trials off ncbi, WHICH has retracted some for the same dubious reasons i suppose.

 

 

ps. i still dunno what zinc cream is.... is this like some magic cream that was found to cause problems later on in studies? perhaps antioxidant cream. antioxidants are good for you, COMMERCIALLY SPEAKING

 

 

 

this one i havent read on "if someone is glutamate deficient and / or DHT deficient, is ZINC going to help that problem No, it will likely only make it worse...on the other hand, small amounts won't hurt, but higher amounts are unnecessary and sometimes even problematic for some people" so i cant contradict this, you might be right.

depending on individuality yes, i agree i cant be sure everyone will react the same but i still am convienced zinc is the least problematic major consumed substance out there. what side effects exactly the people you know have had?

 

"when I took that amount years ago, I felt very apathetic and I had heart rate changes" do you remember what form it was? i took elemental mineral supplement before and had similar side effects + other problems. i assume it could have been combo of all minerals present or just one specific one that i couldnt identify.

 

and for copper, you should eat chocolate. the stuff is freaking loaded with copper so much so, people who eat chocolate regularly have been warned on some old ncbi article i read years ago to actually be cautious and having probability of toxicity!
 

[Area-1255]

 

 

It's obvious you didn't even fully read my last posts..if you had, you would understand that I was speaking about individuality, and minor biochemical differences that can certainly affect the response to Zinc. 

Let me re-phrase, if someone is glutamate deficient and / or DHT deficient, is ZINC going to help that problem? No, it will likely only make it worse...on the other hand, small amounts won't hurt, but higher amounts are unnecessary and sometimes even problematic for some people.

 

IF however, you keep it in proportion with a small copper supplement, or say, you eat chili with your zinc supplement..you'll probably be fine - since you will be getting enough copper to balance it out.

I've met over 30 people, including family, who have had bad side-effects from higher doses of zinc >50 mg... when I took that amount years ago, I felt very apathetic and I had heart rate changes. With 25 mg / day, it actually had it's benefits, very helpful for concentration etc.. it's just not necessary to go ABOVE that amount.

area1255, which type of zinc are you refering to? there are many different types of zinc supplement chelates that only very few or perhaps none work. and toxic levels have not been reported from not a single person on that planet taking zinc supplements even the hard elemental ones. again, which  type of zinc you refer to toxicity problems? i read some articles you posted reffering to zinc cream. what is zinc cream? which elemental zinc is that? some articles seem retracted. i wonder why...

let me quote some from another article you posted "Compared to several other metal ions with similar chemical properties, zinc is relatively harmless. Only exposure to high doses has toxic effects, making acute zinc intoxication a rare event. In addition to acute intoxication, long-term, high-dose zinc supplementation interferes with the uptake of copper"

not only is zinc CALLED harmless, unless megadosed prolong time perhaps 1 year? t doesnt specify time and dose and type of zinc and again, i ask, WHICH TYPE OF ZINC THEY SPEAK OF and whats MEGADOSE? BUT ALSO, they do aknowledge it as less harmful compared to any other metal, and copper being 10x worse than zinc even in minute quantities, i rather take zinc over it.

 

flex, ive tried like many many types of zinc supplements that didnt work. just very few do, and it takes up to 30mg or more to notice effect, never noticed effect at 10mg. Neither any toxicity as area speaks off. Zinc had to be the last one to give me any health problems at megadoses too. To this day i havent seen one single person complain about it either. on the other hand, copper is really bad for you anyway, might as well zinc it out

 

to conclude this, i ask area, you ever taken all types and forms of zinc as i have to compare, review and analyze and CLAIM they do one thing or the other, either work or not work and do they pose toxicity levels or are you going to solely rely on baseless, absolutely lack of informative knowledge, weak, uncontrolled, suspicious and questionable trials off ncbi, WHICH has retracted some for the same dubious reasons i suppose.

 

 

ps. i still dunno what zinc cream is.... is this like some magic cream that was found to cause problems later on in studies? perhaps antioxidant cream. antioxidants are good for you, COMMERCIALLY SPEAKING

 

 

 

 

and for copper, you should eat chocolate. the stuff is freaking loaded with copper so much so, people who eat chocolate regularly have been warned on some old ncbi article i read years ago to actually be cautious and having probability of toxicity!
 

 

Copper toxicity is actually MUCH more common than Zinc excess, that part I agree with you on.

[Area-1255]

Also copper seems to have dose-dependent effects and may in it's own increase or decrease glutamate activity, depending on the situation. So it all comes back to balance.

[DeadBrain]

looove this thread!