162 replies to this topic

[Keizo]

 

sleep deprivation promotes BDNF and treats depression? I thought it has caused me depression. Probably because I did it almost regularly. If you think about it, the most powerful people in the world (world leaders, etc) are known to sleep for only a few hours a day. I think I read about Hilary Clinton only sleeping for about under 5 hours (2-3?). I don't have a source but I read it at one point.

 

Regarding sleep deprivation promoting BDNF, is it because you stay up longer "thinking" and being productive as in the case of researchers, pioneers, etc. Or does it have something to do with the actual deprivation of sleep or a combo of both?

 

I know one poster here mentioned fasting to promote BDNF.

 

I imagine sleep deprivation would work similar to other exhaustive things. Exercise, and I believe especially the more exhaustive and intense it is, promotes BDNF.

I certainly feel better from both, though sleep deprivation makes me feel anxious on top of otherwise improved mood (exercise can cause the same thing). Loosing sleep appears the less sane option.

 

Yeah you can probably get pure BDNF, but I don't know what you would do with it.

I know you can take NGF as eyedrops, though very expensive.

 

For ADHD and any co-occurent depression, my initial thoughts on Selegiline are very positive. 1.25mg every other day for about 10-14 days now.

Anyway my mood is better, richer, slightly more calm, and it feels like I can get interested and engaged in things easier. I played a lot of Might and Magic: Duel of Champions yesterday, usually I would get anxiety from not being able to concentrate. (Though I did drink a bit of Tea)

It should increase BDNF, though I am unsure right now of dosages that might do that. I used it under the tongue. 

Edited by Keizo, 22 November 2014 - 08:04 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Exercise does seem to have that effect on me as well. And since I've tried sleep-deprivation, I'll say that it's NOT the preferred method. It's simply not cognitively pheasible after a few bouts.

 

And as always, if you guys are in the USA - please, utilize a combo of Focalin and Intuniv.

 

It's the ONE tried and true best combo of drugs out there. Tested, well-known, and highly effective.

 

The reason I'm into all these strange and odd chemicals is partially because the BEST medications aren't available here in Scandinavia.

But if you're in the U.S of A...

 

Then Focalin and Intuniv it is.

It should be noted, that guanfacine, the active constituent in Intuniv, is a highly potent serotonin-agonist as well as an alpha-2-agonist - which means that when taken with a stimulant, Intuniv is one h*ll of an anti-depressant, anti-anxietist (?) and anti-PTSD.

 

Some people seem to experience pronounced irritability when not taken with low-dose stimulants, so that's why I recommend Focalin with it.

[eon]

First time I've heard of focalin and intuniv. They had to be prescription.

[Mind_Paralysis]

They are prescription indeed.

 

But if you have been properly diagnosed, you shouldn't have too much trouble to take them up with your personal Doctor and getting a subscription.

 

If you're not diagnosed then things get tricky. : |

 

If so, I recommend Fasoracetam instead, which is not a controlled substance or subscription. It's being researched for ADHD -use, but it's got a lot of other research behind it, when they were trying to use it as an Alzheimers-drug. It's got a lot of reliable safety-information behind it, it's pretty darn safe.

 

The prices on Faso have been going down recently as well, and you'll find some good competitive prices online these days.

[eon]

Great info. 

 

another drug for parkinson's, adhd, and depression is Deprenyl (selegiline) which is derived from levomethamphetamine. Does anyone here know much about it? I'm just curious if it gives that crappy feeling levometh is said to give. Deprenyl is not an amphetamine but belong to a class of drug called MAO inhibitor. They are easier to obtain than the amphetamines, I'm not sure why. There's even a version for animals that can be bought easily online. I would think they would work for humans as well. It can cause euphoria and is used as an aphrodisiac as well, so very close to amphetamines.

 

They are prescription indeed.

 

But if you have been properly diagnosed, you shouldn't have too much trouble to take them up with your personal Doctor and getting a subscription.

 

If you're not diagnosed then things get tricky. : |

 

If so, I recommend Fasoracetam instead, which is not a controlled substance or subscription. It's being researched for ADHD -use, but it's got a lot of other research behind it, when they were trying to use it as an Alzheimers-drug. It's got a lot of reliable safety-information behind it, it's pretty darn safe.

 

The prices on Faso have been going down recently as well, and you'll find some good competitive prices online these days.

 

[eon]

there said to be a D5. D6 and D7 haven't been found yet.

 

upon research seems like cabergoline works on the D2 receptor. 

 

deprenyl works on the dopanime receptor as well but I didn't specifically find which one but it does something to the substancia nigra.

 

 

Good to know:
D1 enhances learning

D2 improves focus (less procrastination and less multitasking)
D3 is associated with motor and reward-related behaviour
D4 is associated with novelty seeking; people with this genetic factor tend to be extroverted, quick tempered, impulsive and easily bored.

 

 

[eon]

http://news.yahoo.co...-173453757.html

 

and more great news about intermittent fasting. The article stated that ancient humans may have eaten only once a day, this is because back then when we were hunters there was no such thing as storing food in refrigerators or super markets to buy foods by the cart. just not sure how fasting would work out for someone who has to be in the line of work such as construction when energy is needed. How does one get energy other than carbs/calories? Will power? I talked to someone in the construction industry and was told some of them eat 10,000 calories per day.

[eon]

http://finance.yahoo...-143500543.html

 

Some good news regarding having ADHD...

[Metagene]

http://finance.yahoo...-143500543.html

Some good news regarding having ADHD...

"In the right environment, these traits are not a disability, and can be a real asset," Weill Cornell Medical College clinical psychiatry professor Richard A. Friedman suggested in a recent op-ed for The New York Times."

You don't say? In my experience the downsides negate any perceived benefits.

[eon]

That's because you live in Florida...

 

"In the right environment..." etc.

 

If you can imagine, where do you think you'd like to move to for your ADHD to become an asset? I would like to move to somewhere rural. I can't afford to do so right now as I am stuck in the city. The city is cheaper than a rural place. Only if I had the money I would make moves...

 

I think someone in this thread discussed about moving to a new place you're unfamiliar with would be beneficial or learning a new skill and so on. 

 

 

http://finance.yahoo...-143500543.html

Some good news regarding having ADHD...

"In the right environment, these traits are not a disability, and can be a real asset," Weill Cornell Medical College clinical psychiatry professor Richard A. Friedman suggested in a recent op-ed for The New York Times."

You don't say? In my experience the downsides negate any perceived benefits.

 

 

Edited by eon, 07 December 2014 - 11:45 PM.

[Metagene]

I was thinking in terms of interpersonal enviroment rather than a physical location. Speaking as a minority I can say it's fairly easy to feel disconnented.

Edited by Metagene, 08 December 2014 - 04:38 AM.

[eon]

I don't quiet understand what you mean by interpersonal environment. There are plenty of minorities in Florida so you shouldn't feel disconnected. Maybe you need to be in a reverse situation as I am. Example: I live in a black majority city, yet I am not black. I neither feel disconnected or connected. I feel wonderful and in an adventure being away from my "own community". Maybe you've been in your own community for too long and it's time for a pattern change?

 

I was thinking in terms of interpersonal enviroment rather than a physical location. Speaking as a minority I can say it's fairly easy to feel disconnented.

 

Edited by eon, 08 December 2014 - 05:12 PM.

[Metagene]

I don't quiet understand what you mean by interpersonal environment. There are plenty of minorities in Florida so you shouldn't feel disconnected. Maybe you need to be in a reverse situation as I am. Example: I live in a black majority city, yet I am not black. I neither feel disconnected or connected. I feel wonderful and in an adventure being away from my "own community". Maybe you've been in your own community for too long and it's time for a pattern change?

I was thinking in terms of interpersonal enviroment rather than a physical location. Speaking as a minority I can say it's fairly easy to feel disconnented.

Interpersonal enviroment means where you communicate with with people. lol no it can easier to be disconnected around other minorities especially having mental disorders so its more a matter of context. What I'm trying to say is I just felt different precisely because I was different and my "environment" never alowed healthy connections to be establised. The first time anyone asked if I had a learning disorder was after taking college placement exam at age 20. 10 years prior unbeknownst to me a letter noted mood issuse and academic problems but conclude "Doctors and Teachers have not suggest ADHD". My parents and doctors misinterped obvious warning sighs out of sheer ignorance and lack of understanding from day one. I didn't even know about the development delay until two years ago because it was assumed that "I'll grow out of it" and being born 8-weeks early with a low birth would have no life long impact.

TL; DR

Moving would alleviate some issues and cause plenty others that I cannot handle atm.

Edited by Metagene, 08 December 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[eon]

How does one block D4?

 

 

Good to know:
D1 enhances learning

D2 improves focus (less procrastination and less multitasking)
D3 is associated with motor and reward-related behaviour
D4 is associated with novelty seeking; people with this genetic factor tend to be extroverted, quick tempered, impulsive and easily bored.

 

 

[eon]

is fasoracetam as amphetamine-like as phenylpiracetam? I'd have to ask around what the dosage people are taking because the vendor never stated any dosage and they are usually labeled as "for research use only".

 

I do like phenylpiracetam and its purported amphetamine-like effect. I do not know how an amphetamine is like since I've never used it. I've never read of fasoracetam being amphetamine-like.

Edited by eon, 15 December 2014 - 04:39 AM.

[eon]

I'm curious if the natural amphetamine source "khat" was the reason why the Ancient Egyptians were smart? I read that it was used by them and the plant is native to that part of the world (Middle East and African regions). Khat is illegal in the U.S. but in the U.K I believe they are legal to buy. Has anyone here ever used this or other natural sources of amphetamine?

Edited by eon, 02 January 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

No idea how amphetamine-like Faso is - but since it appears to be slightly motivating as well as focus-increasing, then I would hypothesize that it's more amphetamine-like in its perceived effect.

 

Khat doesn't seem to be all that useful - seems to be more similar to MDPV and ecstasy than amphetamine - but much, much weaker, it should be noted. It doesn't appear to be very unhealthy, but you're probably better off staying away from it and keeping to other possibilities.

 

And again - you are in the United States - look into Focalin and Intuniv as a combo - it's the best available medication for ADHD in the U.S.

 

Yet again: I am envious of you americans, who have ready access to focalin and Intuniv. It's good stuff - much better than mono-treatments, and much better than the other medications when it comes to side-effects even as mono-treatments.

[eon]

stinkorninjor, do you have ADHD? Have you personally tried fasoracetam? I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD considering it's a "kid's disorder" for the most part and I am no longer a child. I would start with something that requires no prescription first like a fasoracetam before I'd jump to anything else. From your post, it doesn't sound as if you've tried fasoracetam or khat, am I right? Let's try it first before we jump to conclusions. I think my mood disorder, depression, OCD are linked with ADHD considering I can't focus on just one thing and considering OCD and ADHD can co-occur.

Edited by eon, 03 January 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Yes, I have ADHD-PI, the variant without hyper-activity, and more motivational problems.

 

*here's a bit of bragging and ranting to support my fragile ego*

 

Much like I imagine is the case for you, and others on this site, since I didn't have hyperactivity and had some talents in other areas, the disease was masked when I was a child, and it was not picked up on. I even went through some form of testing in second grade, since I was quite shy, different, etc, but they concluded that I was simply " highly intelligent and simply a bit quirky".

 

Alas, that was a poor testing, as it meant that my fairly complex neurological issues went untreated, which lead to tremendous issues when reaching adulthood.

 

A few years back I set out on a quest of self-improvement however, and began taking myself apart and analyzing the contents. I then came to my own conclusion that I had the diagnosis ADHD-PI-DCD-DC, and set forth to get a proper test done - which corroborated my own hypothesis. Treatment has now begun, but I find the treatment-options in my own country to be fairly outdated, which is a definite source of negative emotions.

 

/end rant

 

I haven't tried Faso, and actually think it may very well turn out to be quite useful - I'm no longer recommending it tho', since we don't have the data necessary to make conclusions on which perticular patient-groups will benefit from it.

We will have fairly soon tho', the primary researcher of Fasoracetam, Hakon Hakonarson, will be publishing his trial-report in may - that should give some nice meaty data on the potential for Faso.

 

If you have OCD and depression, you should definitely check out Intuniv ( guanfacine), as it is not just looking to be efficient in treating ADHD, but also appears to be a very robust anxiolytic and anti-depressant - they're doing testing for OCD and PTSD as well.

 

GetOutofBox on these boards, which was on Intuniv for some time, actually noted clear effects on his own OCD and anxiety while on it, so I definitely recommend it.

 

 

[eon]

OK, since you're in Scandinavia, why don't you try some overseas pharmacy to mail you whatever you seek. Not sure if mail customs are tight there or if it matters with regards to getting your meds cheaper through insurance. Isn't Focalin simply a Ritalin with just the dextro isomer and without levo?

Edited by eon, 04 January 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Focalin is methylphenidate ( Ritalin, Concerta, etc) indeed. However, there is often quite a bit of difference between a compounds levo or dextro isomers, and so is also the case with Methylphenidate. The dextro-isomer doesn't give as many side-effects as the levo-isomer. The drawback is that it's only about half as efficient - that's why you combine it with Intuniv, reducing BOTH of the compounds very few side-effects to nearly nothing, and enhancing the effect many-fold.

 

I really should try an overseas pharmacy, but I'm still holding out hope that I can find a doctor that will get me a subscription of IMPORTED focalin and Intuniv - all at a reduced ensurance-price. ^^

 

As you may be aware, we have a fairly generous public health-insurance in the scandinavian countries, and if I can get a Dr. to subscribe the medications, they will be quite cheap, even when imported.

 

I also happen to know that there ARE people in my country that have these compounds on perscription, so it is possible - it's just damn hard to find the right doctors - the ones that are prepared to go out of the box, and actually try new medications.

[arbettor]

Focalin is methylphenidate ( Ritalin, Concerta, etc) indeed. However, there is often quite a bit of difference between a compounds levo or dextro isomers, and so is also the case with Methylphenidate. The dextro-isomer doesn't give as many side-effects as the levo-isomer. The drawback is that it's only about half as efficient - that's why you combine it with Intuniv, reducing BOTH of the compounds very few side-effects to nearly nothing, and enhancing the effect many-fold.

 

I really should try an overseas pharmacy, but I'm still holding out hope that I can find a doctor that will get me a subscription of IMPORTED focalin and Intuniv - all at a reduced ensurance-price. ^^

 

As you may be aware, we have a fairly generous public health-insurance in the scandinavian countries, and if I can get a Dr. to subscribe the medications, they will be quite cheap, even when imported.

 

I also happen to know that there ARE people in my country that have these compounds on perscription, so it is possible - it's just damn hard to find the right doctors - the ones that are prepared to go out of the box, and actually try new medications.

 

I take focalin xr 25mg and although it is quite helpful, I do get certain side effects that are quite frustrating. What do you mean of effects being enchanced with an Intuniv combination? Greater efficiency? In what sense?
 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Well, enhanced effects was perhaps the wrong word - but you require lower doses of Focalin when you take Intuniv, because Intuniv's mode of treatment on ADHD is a focus-enhancing effect. It does little to nothing for motivation however.

But since it lowers blood-pressure and has an anti-depressant effect, it should help with some of the worst side-effects of stimulants: depression and high blood-pressure.

 

What are your side-effects from Focalin btw? I take Ritalin myself, and my side-effects are quite the laundry-list:

Muscle-spasms
Muscle-tensions ( primarily in my back)

Heightened blood-pressure ( severely so)

Irritated skin
Insomnia
Anxiety

Anger-management issues*
Depression*

Suicidal Ideation*

 

*The last three are primarily with prolonged use - I can more or less notice when it's coming and usually take a break. Taking a break is becoming harder and harder mentally tho' - I'm becoming dependent on the drug, as it makes me dynamic and productive - I can finally fulfill the goals that I set for myself. Not being able to be HIGHLY productive, is painful - to say the least, when you're working in a creative field such as me.

 

If you have less side-effects than my laundry-list, then I definitely think you should stick with Focalin, (but enhance it with Intuniv as well, of course) since Ritalin really is famous for it's side-effects, in comparison.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 05 January 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[eon]

stinkorninjor, focalin is dexmethylphenidate and ritalin is just methylphenidate, just pointing out. Is Ritalin available in Scandinavia? If it is, why couldn't a "light" Ritalin (aka Focalin) be available there? Makes no sense. Considering Focalin is "light" Ritalin, it should be available there. Maybe it's under a different name since each country or region tend to have medicines under different names.

 

I've read of bad side effects people had on Ritalin like feeling suicidal and feeling like shit, of course it was used recreationally and not medicinally. 

[arbettor]

Well, enhanced effects was perhaps the wrong word - but you require lower doses of Focalin when you take Intuniv, because Intuniv's mode of treatment on ADHD is a focus-enhancing effect. It does little to nothing for motivation however.

But since it lowers blood-pressure and has an anti-depressant effect, it should help with some of the worst side-effects of stimulants: depression and high blood-pressure.

 

What are your side-effects from Focalin btw? I take Ritalin myself, and my side-effects are quite the laundry-list:

Muscle-spasms
Muscle-tensions ( primarily in my back)

Heightened blood-pressure ( severely so)

Irritated skin
Insomnia
Anxiety

Anger-management issues*
Depression*

Suicidal Ideation*

 

*The last three are primarily with prolonged use - I can more or less notice when it's coming and usually take a break. Taking a break is becoming harder and harder mentally tho' - I'm becoming dependent on the drug, as it makes me dynamic and productive - I can finally fulfill the goals that I set for myself. Not being able to be HIGHLY productive, is painful - to say the least, when you're working in a creative field such as me.

 

If you have less side-effects than my laundry-list, then I definitely think you should stick with Focalin, (but enhance it with Intuniv as well, of course) since Ritalin really is famous for it's side-effects, in comparison.

 

I think my side effects aren't as important to you as they are to me. The one that's most concerning is my heart rate elevating from low to mid 50s to mid to high 70s. I'm attempting to make a comeback in my athletic career and there is a constant fear of dropping dead because I go too far or too hard. The sport I do is very intense on the cardiovascular system. I get some anxiety and tight feeling of dread in my chest sometimes. Appetite is of course suppressed. Insomnia-- last night took me 3 hours to fall asleep. Not frequent and usually not as long but it does happen. I also tend to get this feeling before bed where I wish I didn't have to take this damn thing for the rest of my life just to function regularly. It's a good drug. Just not as pepped up as you make it to be. Maybe the intuniv would be a nice addition.

 

[arbettor]

and circulation. Don't seem to get enough blood to my toes. I'm also very tall

[eon]

you people never thought of cutting the pill in half or 1/4? You don't always have to go by what the doctor says. If I had those 5 mg methamphetamine (desoxyn) I would cut the pill 4x. 

 

Anyone here looked into amfonelic acid?

[arbettor]

you people never thought of cutting the pill in half or 1/4? You don't always have to go by what the doctor says. If I had those 5 mg methamphetamine (desoxyn) I would cut the pill 4x. 

 

Anyone here looked into amfonelic acid?

 

Can't do that. It's in capsule form.

[Blackkzeus]

Try Methyl Drive 2.0, it's supposedly a fat burner but it really doesn't fee like one. I have ADHD-PI as well and Methyl Drive seriously helps with my attention span, mood, anhedonia, and energy levels. Basically, it makes me feel normal. 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Yeah, I use Concerta as my base-med, and that's in capsule-form as well.

I actually have to use a too low dose of Concerta, 18 mg's, even tho' I need 36 mg's, and complement with micro-dosing of Ritalin throughout the day, to get the dosages right.

 

Even so, some side-effects have not really abated, they still come on strong - and this is all common knowledge - certain people never acclimatize to the side-effects. Or, if they do, the tolerance-scale is exponentially higher, so it'll take years until they reach the same side-effect tolerance as the majority.

 

 

 

Well, enhanced effects was perhaps the wrong word - but you require lower doses of Focalin when you take Intuniv, because Intuniv's mode of treatment on ADHD is a focus-enhancing effect. It does little to nothing for motivation however.

But since it lowers blood-pressure and has an anti-depressant effect, it should help with some of the worst side-effects of stimulants: depression and high blood-pressure.

 

What are your side-effects from Focalin btw? I take Ritalin myself, and my side-effects are quite the laundry-list:

Muscle-spasms
Muscle-tensions ( primarily in my back)

Heightened blood-pressure ( severely so)

Irritated skin
Insomnia
Anxiety

Anger-management issues*
Depression*

Suicidal Ideation*

 

*The last three are primarily with prolonged use - I can more or less notice when it's coming and usually take a break. Taking a break is becoming harder and harder mentally tho' - I'm becoming dependent on the drug, as it makes me dynamic and productive - I can finally fulfill the goals that I set for myself. Not being able to be HIGHLY productive, is painful - to say the least, when you're working in a creative field such as me.

 

If you have less side-effects than my laundry-list, then I definitely think you should stick with Focalin, (but enhance it with Intuniv as well, of course) since Ritalin really is famous for it's side-effects, in comparison.

 

I think my side effects aren't as important to you as they are to me. The one that's most concerning is my heart rate elevating from low to mid 50s to mid to high 70s. I'm attempting to make a comeback in my athletic career and there is a constant fear of dropping dead because I go too far or too hard. The sport I do is very intense on the cardiovascular system. I get some anxiety and tight feeling of dread in my chest sometimes. Appetite is of course suppressed. Insomnia-- last night took me 3 hours to fall asleep. Not frequent and usually not as long but it does happen. I also tend to get this feeling before bed where I wish I didn't have to take this damn thing for the rest of my life just to function regularly. It's a good drug. Just not as pepped up as you make it to be. Maybe the intuniv would be a nice addition.

 

 

 

Fascinating. Your side-effects are more or less the same as my own - except slightly more discreet. Which makes sense of course. I get some elevated heart rate, but even though I know many get the same drastic increase as you do, especially on Ritalin - I don't. But that's because there's something in my system that keeps blood-pressure low - the cardiograph I did before being allowed to take Ritalin showed that I had a most excellent heart-rhytm.

 

So, I basically just lucked out when it comes to heart-rate and blood-pressure - the mental aspects tho'... there I did not luck out. I seem to have more problem than most.

 

I was very surprised to hear that you got more or less the same side-effects while on Focalin - since the documentation and many that try it out actually seem to say that it gives its users less side-effects.

 

Disheartening, but not too unexpected.

 

Do try out Intuniv - if you have problems with heart-rate and blood-pressure, then Intuniv will help - that's what the active ingredient, Guanfacine, was originally created to treat.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 07 January 2015 - 12:50 PM.