24 replies to this topic

[the_apollo]

I have always had problems speaking, not the actual speaking, but articulating, what to say,
which led me to be the "silent guy" of my class, not because i wanted to,

but because i never got the words in my head (so to say), to speak.
So i did some research on the subject, on what and why, for starters, i am diagnosed with 'aspbergers syndrome',
a mental disorder related to autism, though it never stopped me, the whole thingy with not being able to place the words,
articulate correctly and know things to say have continued to irritate me.

So what i found in my quest of knowledge, have led me to the left inferior frontal gyrus, a region of the frontal lobe
found to relate heavily to verbal fluency.
 

 

Role of the left inferior frontal gyrus in covert word retrieval: neural correlates of switching during verbal fluency

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16725162

 

 

Effects of repetition and competition on activity in left prefrontal cortex during word generation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10433263

 

 

Evidence for hypoactivation of the inferior frontal gyrus in autism;

 

Age-related increase in inferior frontal gyrus activity and social functioning in autism spectrum disorder.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21310395

 

 

I have also so far found out that the nootropic 'Piracetam' and the AcheIs 'Rivastigmine' and 'Donepezil' increases activity in the effected area, namely the left inferior frontal gyrus.

Piracetam: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10978039

Rivastigmine: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23847120

Donepezil: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19001543
 

 

Okey so to get to the point here,; I, would like to know if there is any other drug/herb(s) that can increase the activity in the left inferior frontal gyrus, and thereby increasing verbal fluency, i am greatful for any response on this matter, as this problem is one which my psychdoc dont think need be solved, "its a part of the diagnose".

[Flex]

Bump

 

Btw: Just for Your consideration

Piracetam causes oxidative stress in the Brain.

The abstracts are posted here on Longecity

[Metagene]

Et tu, Flex?

Admittedly my understanding is limited but the paper highlighted that both piracetam and vinpocetine could possibly behave as pro-oxidants at higher dosages. The entire purpose of the study was to access the role of piracetam and vinpocetine in treating demyelination disease so I find it difficult to except that piracetam innately causes oxidative stress in the brain on this basis. (Semantic discussion aside)

An intriguing explanation for these observations is that at their high concentration, these drugs exhibit pro-oxidant properties and increase free radical production or act as a free radical and in this latter case, it is possible that either piratcetam or vinpocetine react with other free radicals or antioxidant
systems other than glutathione, which is spared in this condition.

In summary, findings in the present study indicates that demyelination due to the local injection of ethidium bro- mide into the rat brain is associated with increased oxida- tive stress. The study suggests an antioxidant effect for the nootropic drugs vinpocetine and piracetam at low doses. In contrast, the higher doses were associated with an increase in oxidative stress, though both drugs offered significant protection against GSH depletion induced by ethidium bromide. The clinical significance of these findings needs to be determined.

https://docs.google....sp=docslist_api

Edited by Metagene, 04 October 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[Metagene]

the_apollo out of curiosity have you ever taken a facial emotion recognition test? Not to derail but that was X-factor in distinguishing DCD from the negative symptoms of Schizophrenia or autism in my case. Despite extremely accurate facial emotion recognition I struggle with verbal fluency nonetheless.

Very insightful topic.

[Metagene]

Effect of propranolol on word fluency in autism.


Abstract
OBJECTIVE AND BACKGROUND: Autism is characterized by repetitive behaviors and impaired socialization and communication. Preliminary evidence showed possible language benefits in autism from the β-adrenergic antagonist propranolol. Earlier studies in other populations suggested propranolol might benefit performance on tasks involving a search of semantic and associative networks under certain conditions. Therefore, we wished to determine whether this benefit of propranolol includes an effect on semantic fluency in autism.

METHODS: A sample of 14 high-functioning adolescent and adult participants with autism and 14 matched controls were given letter and category word fluency tasks on 2 separate testing sessions; 1 test was given 60 minutes after the administration of 40 mg propranolol orally, and 1 test was given after placebo, administered in a double-blinded, counterbalanced manner.

RESULTS: Participants with autism were significantly impaired compared with controls on both fluency tasks. Propranolol significantly improved performance on category fluency, but not letter fluency among autism participants. No drug effect was observed among controls. Expected drug effects on heart rate and blood pressure were observed in both the groups.

CONCLUSIONS: Results are consistent with a selective beneficial effect of propranolol on flexibility of access to semantic and associative networks in autism, with no observed effect on phonological networks. Further study will be necessary to understand potential clinical implications of this finding.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/21487259/

I will try to find something more current.

[Flex]

@ Metagene

Sorry my fault.

[Monostereo]

While I've never been officially diagnosed with Asperger's (though I wouldn't be surprised) I have been dealing with Chronic Fatigue for some time. One supplement that helped a lot with verbal acuity was Cal-Mag Butyrate. 

After starting the Butyrate I found that I was able to express myself in ways that were too exhausting before. Like having casual conversations with people. In fact, the feeling I have is that before I was 'locked-in', unable to get words in my head to my mouth. I was always able to express myself through writing, but talking was so difficult. There was an initial big boost in the ability to express myself when I first started taking it that became less significant as I continued the treatment. I don't know if the supplement should be cycled, or if the body builds up resistance or if I've just gotten used to a new normal. 

 

Here's a possible mechanism, "Butyrate… may also have a positive effect on some neurological problems associated with CFS. Dr. Cheney proposes that an imbalance in the actions of the neuroexcitatory chemical NMDA and the nueuroinhibitor GABA may lead to many of the troubling neurological symptoms experienced by patients with CFS (insomnia, intolerance of sensory stimuli, etc.)"

 

http://books.google....t guide&f=false

 

Butyrate seems to be fairly safe, though there really isn't enough info. On one hand, there are bacteria in the intestines that actively create butyrate. Some people on the Paleo diet try to encourage this production by ingesting resistant starch. Also, it seems to act as an anti-carcinogen most of the time but may act as a pro-carcinogen if cancer is already present. But I don't think that anyone really knows at this point.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that butyrate is a cure or permanent solution for articulation. But it has helped me so far. I use the Pharmax brand found on Amazon. I tried the Bodybio brand but it didn't seem to be as effective.

Also, you might want to look into the recent Autism study on Sulforaphane: http://www.washingto...tism-treatment/

 

[Flex]

I´ve forgott what all helped me but here are some of them:

NSI-189 = gave me the drive to talk.

The one thing is that my mind is sometimes blank in regards to what to talk about, but the drive is sometimes for me even more improtant.

 

MAO-B = Also kind of drive + a bit lesser blank mind IIRC

e.g. neuravena extract, also a PDE4 and partial PDE10 inhibitor

 

Carnosine = no drive but a bit more able to more express myself and being slight extroverted.

Edited by Flex, 25 October 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[Monostereo]

Reading the actual autism sulforphane study reveals that verbal communication improved 42.3% over placebo controls (0%). 

http://www.pnas.org/...1.full.pdf html
 

----------

Table 2. Clinical Global Impression-Improvement (CGI-I) scores at 18 wk for the 37 subjects for

whom scores were available

 

Number of subjects’ scored as either “much improved” or

“very much improved” after 18 wk/total number of

subjects (% of total number evaluated)

 

Subscore / Placebo / Sulforphane / P for-difference

 

Overall level of autism /  0/11 (0%)  /  0/26 (0%) /   –

Social interaction  /   0/11 (0%)    / 12/26 (46.2%)  /   0.007

Aberrant/abnormal behavior /     1/11 (9.1%)   /   14/26 (53.8%) /   0.014

Repetitive and stereotypical behavior   /   0/11 (0%)  /   6/26 (23.1%)  /   0.15

Verbal communication  /   0/11 (0%)  /   11/26  (42.3%) /   0.015

Nonverbal communication  /   1/11 (9.1%)  /   5/26 (19.2%)  /   0.65

Hyperactivity and inattention   / 0/11 (0%) /     3/26 (11.5%)  /   0.54

Anxiety /     0/11 (0%)  /   2/26(7.7%)  /   >0.99

Sensory sensitivities  /   0/11 (0%)  /   6/26 (23.1%) /     0.15

Restricted and narrow interests /   0/11 (0%)  /   0/26 (0%)  /   –

 

[Flex]

Could You please tell via which mechanism ?

[Monostereo]

"The researchers called for more study of links between how sulforphane and fevers affect people with autism. “Widespread anecdotal reports have suggested that fever can dramatically but temporarily ameliorate the disturbed behavior of many autistic patients,” the researchers wrote. They theorized sulforaphane triggers a biological reaction similar to having a fever, which causes a “heat-shock response” that reduces inflammation in cells."

 

http://www.washingto...tism-treatment/

 

It should be noted that this is the first study of this kind. The study will need to be expanded and replicated before and firm conclusions are made.

[Flex]

wow interresting.

didnt expect that.

Thx

[jaiho]

Modafinil made me articulate as fuck. Drugs/noots vary so much in people though. some people will become less articulate from the same drug.

[rebecca123]

Oh yeah, I can definitely relate to this problem. For some reason, I can never express myself as eloquently as I would have liked, I also stutter a bit or have big pauses in and between my sentences. I always end up sounding like a retard in some way. By coincidence I lately experienced a small but noticable difference with this because of my thiamine supplementation (or so I think). I feel I have more self-confidence, am more assertive and verbally fluent! I think it's worth a try if you're like me!

[the_apollo]

While I've never been officially diagnosed with Asperger's (though I wouldn't be surprised) I have been dealing with Chronic Fatigue for some time. One supplement that helped a lot with verbal acuity was Cal-Mag Butyrate. 

After starting the Butyrate I found that I was able to express myself in ways that were too exhausting before. Like having casual conversations with people. In fact, the feeling I have is that before I was 'locked-in', unable to get words in my head to my mouth. I was always able to express myself through writing, but talking was so difficult. There was an initial big boost in the ability to express myself when I first started taking it that became less significant as I continued the treatment. I don't know if the supplement should be cycled, or if the body builds up resistance or if I've just gotten used to a new normal. 

 

Here's a possible mechanism, "Butyrate… may also have a positive effect on some neurological problems associated with CFS. Dr. Cheney proposes that an imbalance in the actions of the neuroexcitatory chemical NMDA and the nueuroinhibitor GABA may lead to many of the troubling neurological symptoms experienced by patients with CFS (insomnia, intolerance of sensory stimuli, etc.)"

 

http://books.google....t guide&f=false

 

Butyrate seems to be fairly safe, though there really isn't enough info. On one hand, there are bacteria in the intestines that actively create butyrate. Some people on the Paleo diet try to encourage this production by ingesting resistant starch. Also, it seems to act as an anti-carcinogen most of the time but may act as a pro-carcinogen if cancer is already present. But I don't think that anyone really knows at this point.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that butyrate is a cure or permanent solution for articulation. But it has helped me so far. I use the Pharmax brand found on Amazon. I tried the Bodybio brand but it didn't seem to be as effective.

Also, you might want to look into the recent Autism study on Sulforaphane: http://www.washingto...tism-treatment/

 

Of what i could read there it just mentioned some intestinal problems related to CFS that butyrate ameliorates, and that because of some patients with CFS having intestinal problems..

Out of curiosity, i went ahead and tried it, (for two weeks now), i got absolutelely no improvement in verbal fluency or anything that i actually want,

but taking a dump is just fenomental, like eating a lot of fiber, so there is that..

[the_apollo]

I´ve forgott what all helped me but here are some of them:

NSI-189 = gave me the drive to talk.

The one thing is that my mind is sometimes blank in regards to what to talk about, but the drive is sometimes for me even more improtant.

 

MAO-B = Also kind of drive + a bit lesser blank mind IIRC

e.g. neuravena extract, also a PDE4 and partial PDE10 inhibitor

 

Carnosine = no drive but a bit more able to more express myself and being slight extroverted.

 

Not knowing what to say/blank mind is actually my more major problem in with the whole thing here, i can talk, but sound like an illiterate when i do, when i actually know what to say, that is.

I have also tried MAOIs, two herbal and one chemical/medicinal, which was Selegiline. All three of them made me more anxious, stressed and anhedonic..

[Monostereo]

 

Of what i could read there it just mentioned some intestinal problems related to CFS that butyrate ameliorates, and that because of some patients with CFS having intestinal problems..

Out of curiosity, i went ahead and tried it, (for two weeks now), i got absolutelely no improvement in verbal fluency or anything that i actually want,

but taking a dump is just fenomental, like eating a lot of fiber, so there is that..

 

 

Effect might depend on the brand. I've found the Pharmax Butyrate on Amazon is effective, but the BodyBio is not. Anyway, for digestive health, try making your own Kefir  

 

http://www.motherear...x#axzz3JeLPfv00

[drg]

I used to be extremely nonverbal. I believe it was more due to fatigue and cognitive sluggishness than anything else.

Here are the highlights of my stack.

 

NSI189

Riluzole

Lamotrigine

Lithium

 

I take a lot of shit but I believe those helped my ability to communicate most. I was treating the underlying cause though, not the verbal fluency itself, but as a result my speaking is much better in any case.  

 

[resveratrol_guy]

I have found that Super Quercetin improved my verbal fluency in a persistent manner. As my neurologist put it, I would "pause for word choice" too often and for too long, following a brain injury last year; now, I don't have this problem any more than I did when I was in my 20s. This is not placebo because I was talking it with the expectation of a different benefit, and noticed that the effect correlated to consumption within a day. 2 (two) capsules contain: 500 mg quercetin, 140 mg bromelain,  100 mg citrus bioflavonoid complex including 40 mg hesperidin, 25 mg acerola, 25 mg rose hips, and 20 mg rutin. I don't have a good theory as to why this occurs. By contrast, c60oo gave me verbal hyperfluidity, but the effect was transient.

 

[resveratrol_guy]

One other thought, the_apollo: exploit the brain's affinity for association to leverage your way into enhanced verbal fluency, like this, which I've done for several months but never bothered to mention, as part of my recovery from mild cognitive impairment:

 

1. Start by listening a song that you like on the radio. Ideally, this should be a simple song with a tempo which isn't too fast and repeats similar phrases over and over again. Try to "sing along" in your head, simulating actual verbal competency.

 

2. Once you're familiar with the song, try to visualize the words in text as you hear them, as though printed on a piece of paper. When you get good at this, do the same while listening to John Moschitta in his YouTube FedEx commercial and other fast talkers.

 

3. (This part might require visual enhancement, e.g. my favorite shiitake/maitake extract.) Do #1 and #2, but now, select a font in which the text should appear, and try to make the text appear in that font.

 

4. Do all of the above, but imagine the font is written on old parchment paper. Visualize the paper fibers in the parchment, the ink dropping in concentration with distance from the edges of each letter due to diffusion into the parchment, some wrinkles in the paper, etc. Do this in real time, with the song. If possible, switch fonts between words while maintaining a high level of physical text photorealism. (We are attempting to enhance the connectivity among your verbal, auditory, text parsing, and 2D image processing circuitry.)

 

5. Do #1-#3, but not #4 anymore. This time, make a front out of, say, highrise buildings shaped like letters. Try to see the metal and glass structure, the plumbing network, the electrical network, the ventilation system, the interior finishings, the furniture, etc., in kind of a see-through way. So in other words, you see the "ghost" of a fully occupied "R"-shaped highrise building, as the letter "R" in a song about a "R"iver. See one word at a time, like a group of "letter buildings" on an otherwise normal city block. (Now we're trying to tie in 3D image processing.)

 

6. (BTW I hope you're not doing this while driving...) Now, if you've gotten this far, instead of merely "singing along", translate the song into another language, so for instance, you're mentally singing in French while you're hearing the song in English and visualizing the words as highrise buildings. (I can't crack this one very well, but you might be able to.)

 

7. You get the idea. Try other stuff, like making the words into flocks of birds that morph into each other, behind your head as though you could read backwards, etc.

 

The whole point is to exploit associative processing to achieve verbal fluidity indirectly, instead of narrowly focussing on it in isolation. This works for achieving "memory master" competency by hijacking your visual memory for word memorization, for example. Maybe it will work for your purpose as well.

 

So what has this done for me? It's hard to separate the effects from the rest of my recovery regimen, but I can say: (1) I seldom have problems anymore with excessive word choice latency. (2) I often find myself wishing that I could turn up the "talking speed" dial so that people would talk to me faster in order to help me pay better attention to them. By contrast, at the depths of my brain problems, as I said elsewhere, I would sit there for a few seconds trying extract meaning from the sentence that someone had just uttered at me.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 November 2014 - 08:52 PM.

[rezin]

My environment thinks of me as a very confident individual while I have to work hard to keep selling this 'image'. While doing so I encountered big problems every time I was talking to people 'superior' to me. Superior in regards of position, age, power. Examples are my boss, to whom I am related, or my girlfriend's parents, although I have a good relationship with both of them.

When my boss supervises me while speaking to customers I started to stutter slightly but it was enough for him to notice. 

 

I just recently started to take a stack of:

• curcumin (tea)
• black pepper
• l-theanine (matcha tea)
• caffeine (matcha tea)
• b vitamins
• ginseng

What I noticed first was my elevated mood and increased energy (curcumin and ginseng, probably). While talking to these 'superior' people with this elevated mood and reduced anxiety I suddenly was talking to them more fluently and stopped feeling inferior to them. 

Conclusion: If your verbal influency is somehow connected to anxiety I suggest trying a stack including ginseng, curcumin and black pepper.

[Al Capacino]

The one time in my life when I always knew what to say and never went away thinking I wish I said this, that and the other was when I took mirtazapine at 45mg.

Usually I have a blank mind when under pressure but I was so in control then. Might go back!

I think mirtazapine has nootropic effects at the higher doses especially. You just have to put up with your legs feeling like lead weights and the slight daytime sedation :/ if it wasn't for that though mirt was nearly perfect

[the_apollo]

The one time in my life when I always knew what to say and never went away thinking I wish I said this, that and the other was when I took mirtazapine at 45mg.

Usually I have a blank mind when under pressure but I was so in control then. Might go back!

I think mirtazapine has nootropic effects at the higher doses especially. You just have to put up with your legs feeling like lead weights and the slight daytime sedation :/ if it wasn't for that though mirt was nearly perfect

 

Interesting,, Im curious to know, did you have any mental problems that you used mirtazapine to treat?

Before you used to take mirtazapine, did you have problems with verbal fluency, or did that fluency just improved by mirtazapine?

[Blackkzeus]

Anybody else have any other suggestions to improve verbal fluency? I find I have a hard time completing sentences when I'm talking even though I know exactly what I want to say. I just can't remember the words to articulate my thoughts. I think it might be related to stress and anxiety. I've been chronically stressed for like the past 10 years and I think the stress has completed diminished my ability to think spontaneously and recall words and memories in a timely manner. I also used to be a pretty good speller before the stress and now I find I can't spell to save my life. Anybody know how I can reverse this cognitive deficit? 

[AlexCanada]

Not sure about speaking because I was isolated at the time but Memantine within the 2nd day made me write like an absolute genius. I was articulating in such a brilliant fashion as if all I had learned throughout my years was just so naturally and effortlessly accessible. It was absolutely astonishing. Unfortunately I had some bad side effects such as what may have been disassociation but perhaps with a different combo it will work more effectively for me in the future.