75 replies to this topic

[Juicy]

Has anyone come across this?

 

SCP 

 

http://www.regenexx....ich-plasma-prp/

[kaypeeoh]

THis commercial company makes a big deal about not getting red cell fragments into the PRP.  But some suggest these fragments stimulate the platelets to produce fibrin sooner.  IT makes sense,   Red cell fragments in the blood stimulate platelets to degranulate and attack injured blood vessels.  It may be a good thing but not if it costs $10k.  Standard PRP works fine.   Since everybody's an expert on this website, I've had PRP several times, plus stem cell treatment.  As a veterinarian I'm using PRP and stem cells regularly for orthopedic cases. 

[Juicy]

Can we hear more from your experiences.. Are you doing it yourself or seeking someone in Wyoming that specializes in regenerative medicine? and whats your issue on the joints and such

 

GL!

[kaypeeoh]

I've been a distance runner for over thirty years.  And suffered with heel pain for the past 20 years.  I used ibuprofen by the hand-full until being kicked out of a 50 mile race due to slowness.    It was variously diagnosed as plantar fasciitis, patellar lateral luxation,  sport hernia, and lastly Achilles insertional tendinopathy.  This  is when the tendon is breaking  loose from the heel bone.  I researched and found PRP.  One doctor in Park City, Utah was doing and became well known because of success when working on the Winter Olympic athletes.  Two treatments from him fixed my left heel.  But he retired and his replacement didn't have as much success on my right heel.   After two failed attempts he sucked stem cells out of my hip and injected them into the heel bone.   This didn't help much but a final PRP treatment six weeks later seems to have finally solved the heel pain.   In my veterinary practice I generally use PRP but for tough cases have extracted stem cells from fat. 

[Juicy]

Thank you kaypeeoh,

 

The issue is a lot of people say Stem_Cell therapy derived from your own bone-marrow is controversial in actually help OA or treatments.. Many doctors say there isn't evidence but users report relief and satisfaction with this but prove me wrong.. 

 

However for some reason my theory is getting Bone Marrow Stem-Cell so frequently or Mensy. Stem-Cells say all around your joints (3x yearly) to me seems to be a more potent and effective way to keep things fluid, tendons strong and avoid injuries? or is the half-life effectiveness in Stem Cells prolonged?

[tepol]

I've been a distance runner for over thirty years.  And suffered with heel pain for the past 20 years.  I used ibuprofen by the hand-full until being kicked out of a 50 mile race due to slowness.    It was variously diagnosed as plantar fasciitis, patellar lateral luxation,  sport hernia, and lastly Achilles insertional tendinopathy.  This  is when the tendon is breaking  loose from the heel bone.  I researched and found PRP.  One doctor in Park City, Utah was doing and became well known because of success when working on the Winter Olympic athletes.  Two treatments from him fixed my left heel.  But he retired and his replacement didn't have as much success on my right heel.   After two failed attempts he sucked stem cells out of my hip and injected them into the heel bone.   This didn't help much but a final PRP treatment six weeks later seems to have finally solved the heel pain.   In my veterinary practice I generally use PRP but for tough cases have extracted stem cells from fat. 

 

What's your opinion on Cytokine Rich Plasma (CRP) ?

 

Have you heard anything about it working any better than regular PRP in any way, or is it more of a gimmick ?

 

tepol

[kaypeeoh]

A dozen companies could come out with variations on PRP.  Maybe all are good and maybe none are.  But all it would cost you is time and money since PRP is too new to be covered by most insurance.   I've wondered about adding hyaluronic acid (HA) to PRP prior to joint injection.   20 years ago HA injections were all that could be done for arthritis. 

 

kpo

[tepol]

A dozen companies could come out with variations on PRP.  Maybe all are good and maybe none are.  But all it would cost you is time and money since PRP is too new to be covered by most insurance.   I've wondered about adding hyaluronic acid (HA) to PRP prior to joint injection.   20 years ago HA injections were all that could be done for arthritis. 

 

kpo

 

Yes, there are a lot . I notice that the Prolo guys are using it too along with stem cell injections ( prob at far cheaper price ) see here but without the growth factors . It would be interesting to know if their technique differs as much the others i.e. so we coulf get some legit comparison of sorts.

 

tepol

[mpe]

Three years since my stem cell injection to my left knee.

Everything is fine.

I work as a traffic controller on Sydney roads and am on my feet for 6 to 10 hours a day.

If there was a problem I couldn't work, I have no problems what so ever.

 

Mike

[ironfistx]

I sorted my knee out with Gelatine and Horny Goat Weed.
Horney goat weed provides the same thing as stem cells without the cost and pain.

Is there any information about this? How does horny goat weed do the same thing?

Bump
Here I have a torn meniscus, too.

[sthira]

I sorted my knee out with Gelatine and Horny Goat Weed.
Horney goat weed provides the same thing as stem cells without the cost and pain.

Is there any information about this? How does horny goat weed do the same thing?

Bump
Here I have a torn meniscus, too.

Oh that sucks, man. I'm sorry. Now what? Where is the tear?

[YOLF]

 

 

 

I sorted my knee out with Gelatine and Horny Goat Weed.
Horney goat weed provides the same thing as stem cells without the cost and pain.

Is there any information about this? How does horny goat weed do the same thing?

Bump
Here I have a torn meniscus, too.

Oh that sucks, man. I'm sorry. Now what? Where is the tear?

 

Been experimenting with icariins from HGW. It should also help to take AHAs to soften the resistance on the ECM and allow the proliferating stem cells to have more of an effect. Anything that can increase FGFs or their receptors is probably a good idea too. These are the kinds of things that are going to lead to regeneration or strengthening of the tissue, though if part of it has been lost, surgery will probably be required. Also, drugs like alagebrium should work better where there is more ECM turnover such as with FGF and FGF receptors.

 

So an ideal stack imo would be made from these:

• Klotho peptide (FGF receptor)
• FGF1 
• Alagebrium (removal of glucosepane, should show efficacy similar to that in rodent studies with more FGF/klotho and a few supplements)
• Icariins (stem cell proliferation w/o differentiation), could also experiment with diffusion of allantoin in oral dosing.
• Cycloastragenol (enhance replicative capacity)
• Pyruvic, malic, lactic, or similar alpha/beta hydroxy acid (assists in ECM renovation)
• EDTA (improves cellular permeability for delivery)

I'm organizing a group buy for the top three as they aren't easy to get.

[sthira]

These are the kinds of things that are going to lead to regeneration or strengthening of the tissue, though if part of it has been lost, surgery will probably be required. Also, drugs like...

If you're trying to be helpful by offering advice for someone's torn meniscus, a few things. First, if there is no blood supply to the torn cartilage then how will the drugs or chemicals you mentioned get to the injury site? Even if they worked to regenerate new, good as original tissue and not more crappy scar tissue, then do you inject these proposed chemicals into the bloodless zone?

Second, when cartilage is torn, that's it, it's torn. Surgery itself is what causes torn tissue to then become "lost" tissue. That's because surgeons literally snip away the pieces of the tear, they abride and clean up the spaces. Removing this tissue might be one reason surgeries of some knee meniscus tears have been called into question (called into question, mind you now, a few years ago, btw. Meanwhile, there's been no news about any recent clinical advances that I know of -- please prove me wrong) that surgery may be no better in many cases than sham. That is, once it's torn, depending upon the tear, perhaps a better course is to just leave it alone, let the body attempt to heal the injury without surgical interventions.

Obviously the difficult decision a sufferer of this injury must make regarding whether or not to undergo expensive, perhaps ineffective, and possibly even detrimental surgery depends upon the unique tear of the unique meniscus because every tear in every meniscus is different.

Now would be a good time to remind us that researchers and science media have been telling us that good news is shortly on way -- indeed imminently -- for regenerating avascular cartilage tears for literally decades.

Edited by sthira, 05 October 2017 - 10:23 AM.

[kaypeeoh]

A torn meniscus is essentially the same as a torn tendon.  There isn't much blood supply to the tendon/meniscus.   PRP puts a dense concentration of platelets into the joint.  These platelets are looking for an injury to heal and will create a scaffolding for new fibrous tissue to grow.  Adding stem cells increases the healing of the tendon.   Stem cells can be harvested from bone marrow or sq fat.   There are 10-100 times more stem cells in sq fat than in bone marrow.   So it could be a simple procedure, draw blood, separate the platelets then collect sq fat, similar to liposuction, then collect the stem cells and add them to the PRP for joint injection.  I've done this a dozen times in my veterinary practice.  It works very well for ACL tears in large breed dogs.   In surgery the meniscal flap is cut out.  This ultimately leads to healing with scar tissue to replace the cartilage.   PRP and stem cells create new cartilage for better functional healing.  

 

kaypeeoh

[sthira]

... In surgery the meniscal flap is cut out. This ultimately leads to healing with scar tissue to replace the cartilage. PRP and stem cells create new cartilage for better functional healing.

Thanks, Kaypeeoh, I guess it's time to look back into PRP for meniscus regeneration. I admit I'm rusty bothering to keep up. PRP, or any success would certainly change my life -- injury ended my career -- and it'd probably help millions of others with similar suffering.

The last I checked on the PRP procedure specifically for avascular meniscus knee damage it was still controversial, expensive, and of course not covered by US insurance. I've read some great anecdotal accounts by some; athough then I've read the reverse, where it didn't seem to help much. Ask a dozen orthopedists, of course, and you'll get shrugs, dunnos, insufficient science, blah bleh

Meanwhile, to my knowledge, it's true that no large independent PRP human trials (for what ails me) have proceeded, and it seems like there's little incentive for any in future. So we're often naively left in the hands of marketing.

I'm happy to hear it helped in your feet tendons. Has the healing sustained? Do you envy aspects of veterinary medicine (with seemingly less regulation and more freedom to explore experimental procedures)?

[Astroid]

Prolotherapy, also known as Ozone Therapy, can use stem cells from your own blood to stimulate healing.. 

 

I have had it done to my left shoulder, back, exterior of the knee with great results.

 

Search the internet to find a MD near you. 

 

One can regrow knee cartilage with it, as long as you still have some to grow. 

The Ozone actually causes inflammation, to trigger the healing process. 

After a couple of weeks, I added high doses of Systemic Enzymes to speed up the healing.. it will even help tendons and ligaments heal.  

I used only the Enzymes to heal both torn biceps that had been torn for 3 years... 90% in 90 days, 5 years ago.