14 replies to this topic

[cloudcell]

Ray Kurzweil and Terry Grossman suggest that phosphatidylcholine (PC) must be at least 50% pure. Please, read the quote below. They also suggest to take about 900 milligrams two to four times a day (in the same book).

 

Phosphatidylcholine (PC) is a major component of your cell membranes. As you age, the level of PC in the cell wall diminishes, which is an important aging process. By supplementing with PC, you can stop and even reverse this process. Research indicates that PC can stimulate reverse cholesterol transport-that is, removal of cholesterol from artery plaque-essentially the same process that HDL promotes. PC, both as an oral supplement and as an intravenous therapy, is widely used in Germany and approved by the German equivalent of the FDA. When taking oral PC, it is important to use one that is at least 50 percent pure. Many supplements labeled as phosphatidylcholine are actually only about 30 percent PC. Food-grade lecithin contains PC, but only about 20 to 25 percent is PC.

Ray Kurzweil;Terry Grossman. Transcend: Nine Steps to Living Well Forever (Kindle Locations 637-642). Kindle Edition. 

 

The question is as follows:

Why is that important to take PC with purity of 50% and above? If PC (lecithin) is 33.3% pure, why one cannot just increase the dosage? (In this case, one would simply have to take 3 times as much lecithin). 

 

Please refer to scientific studies, if possible.

 

Edited by crowdcell, 18 October 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

what about increase or reverse this aging process in a smarter manner ? Supplementing in the raw component can have adverse effect. It seems like supplementing with co Q10 or hyaluronic acic.. Im really not a big fan

[cloudcell]

Thanks Tom, but have you read the book? This is a tiny piece of a comprehensive program. The question in no way addresses a possibility of any alternative, or what you might refer to 'smarter' manner of reversing aging. I am asking a very specific question related to the purity of PC. Kurzweil and Grossman must have based their advice on some research. I am trying to get hold of that particular piece of research. Maybe someone knows Ray or Terry well enough so they could ask them?

[krillin]

It looks like Ray and Terry sell standard 35% phosphatidylcholine. The label says 420 mg phosphatidylcholine and 10 calories, and 10 calories would make it ~1200 mg total weight.

[cloudcell]

Thanks for the link krillin! Even though the weight of components on the label is not straightforward for me, I found this list of literature at the webpage you gave the link to (see below).

 

References:

1. J Nutr. 1995. Jun;125(6): 1484-1489. S. Y. Chung et al.
2. Clin Neuropharmacol. 1993. Dec;16(6): 540-549.S. L. Ladd et al.\
3. Journal of Lipid Research. 2001. Oct(42): 1586-1593. M. N. Nanjee et al.
4. Circ Res. 2002. May 17;90(9): 974-980. G. Chiesa.
5. Circulation. 2001. Jun 26;103(25): 3047-3050. P. K. Shah et al.

If anyone is willing to help by going through these documents (this is what I found online for the references mentioned above):

1. J Nutr.: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7782901

2. Clin Neuropharmacol.: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9377589

3. Journal of Lipid Research: http://www.jlr.org/content/by/year

4. Circ Res.: http://circres.ahajo...t/90/9/974.long

5. Circulation: http://circ.ahajourn...tent/103/25.toc

 

These may or may not explain the reason why more pure PH is advised, however.

I will also write to info@rayandterry.com and if they give me an answer, I'll post it here myself.

 

Feel free to answer if you find the explanation first.

[mitomutant]

Maybe a bit offtopic, but NTFactor[1] came to my mind when reading this. I have always thought that NTFactor is some mumbo-jumbo and I have been reluctant to try it.

This is a good review of the so called "Lipid replacement therapy" [2]

 

[1] http://ntfactor.com/#&panel1-1

[2] http://www.nleducati...une-connection/

[cloudcell]

Thanks mitomutant. Ray Kurzweil and Terry Grossman actually give a list of chemical compounds that is quite similar to Lipid replacement therapy (LRT) you mentioned. Phosphatidylcholine (aka PC, or PtC) is just one component of the many suggested in the book, and one of several components that comprise the LRT therapy (in your links).

 

I am trying to use one source of supplement recommendations (the book TRANSCEND by Kurzweil and Grossman) at the moment to keep things simple. The simplicity also comes from the fact that the authors provide recommendations for one chemical compound at a time rather than giving a patented mixture (as is the case with LRT). Each chemical recommendation is supported by extensive research. However, sometimes the book contains somewhat ambiguous statements that lack specific references to proper research. That was the reason I started this topic. 

 

Edited by crowdcell, 29 October 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[mitomutant]

Thanks mitomutant. Ray Kurzweil and Terry Grossman actually give a list of chemical compounds that is quite similar to Lipid replacement therapy (LRT) you mentioned. 

Phosphatidylcholine (aka PC, or PtC) is just one component of the many suggested in the book, and one of several components that comprise the LRT therapy (in your links).

 

 

I am trying to use one source of supplement recommendations (the book TRANSCEND by Kurzweil and Grossman) at the moment to keep things simple. The simplicity also comes from the fact that the authors provide recommendations for each chemical compound at a time rather than giving you a patented mixture (as is the case with LRT). Each chemical recommendation is supported by extensive research, but, unfortunately, sometimes the book contains somewhat ambiguous statements that lack references to proper research, which is why I started this topic. 

Too bad I didn´t know about this book. Just bought the Kindle version.

 

Now that I think about it, protecting the mitochondrial membrane is actually a good line of defense for my condition. Maybe I have been too centered in reducing ROS and it´s time to explore this. Thanks.

[cloudcell]

I contacted customer support at the site of the book (info@rayandterry.com) a couple of times and finally got the answer. I asked them the initial question and also asked why the product they sell differs from what they recommend in the book. Here is their answer (shortened):

 

"Our PtC is oil-based and derived from lecithin. Many available formulas use PC derived from lecithin as a 35% material. Many of the stronger concentrations must be delivered by IV.

We are currently looking for a more concentrated PC product to offer even higher amounts, but feel that up to 4 of our soft gels per day is a sufficient level for most people’s general needs.

The PtC type we hope to offer will be a nano-encapsulated product. This is the next step in oral supplementation of PtC. We hope to roll this product out within the next year.

 

The 35% part is the purity of the Ptc ingredient only, it’s not meant is 35% of the weight of each capsule. The label is just indicating how the product is made up – from that “bulk” oil, there is 420 mg of Ptc per capsule."

 

To summarize, there is "bulk PtC" and "pure PtC" and purity has nothing to do how much "bulk PtC" weighs relative to the weight of the pill/capsule. Purity is "pure PtC" weight divided by "bulk PtC" weight. (Correct me if I misread anything).

 

 

1) What is the total weight of one capsule? 

"The capsules weigh 1751mg +/- 40mg."

 

2) In their book, Ray and Terry talk about purity of PtC. I will re-quote from the letter below: "When taking oral PC, it is important to use one that is at least 50 percent pure." It follows that they suggest that people take 50% pure PtC when only 35% purity is available at their store... Could you please comment on this?

 

"We have looked into a higher concentration and are interested in finding a pure material, but have not yet located one that is both reasonable in cost and available for oral formulations.

For the purest form, you may want to consider getting it in IV form through a complementary physician."

 

So, I suppose, PtC that is over 50% pure is unreasonably expensive, it just won't sell.

 

3) How did Ray and Terry come up with that 50% purity level? (Please point me to a specific research paper.)

"The reason R&T recommend such a high purity is because of the difficulty in absorbing PtC orally. There are no specific citations regarding this advice and specific number. ...

You could email Terry directly, perhaps he could offer you a more in depth answer regarding the percentage. Also he may be able to refer you to a physician offering IV PtC. ..."

 

[krillin]

3) How did Ray and Terry come up with that 50% purity level? (Please point me to a specific research paper.)

"The reason R&T recommend such a high purity is because of the difficulty in absorbing PtC orally. There are no specific citations regarding this advice and specific number. ...

You could email Terry directly, perhaps he could offer you a more in depth answer regarding the percentage. Also he may be able to refer you to a physician offering IV PtC. ..."

 

 

Clean lecithin (i.e. no trimethylamine (TMA) contamination) does not result in TMA in the urine, while free choline does. That implies that the choline in phosphatidyl choline is completely absorbed before it can get to the gut bacteria that make TMA.
 

[cloudcell]

Thanks krillin! That page looks like it's about to disappear (with graphs missing). So I attached it to this letter. This is the quote from the paper to which (I think) you are referring:

 

A 1999 study by other authors came to similar conclusions.  They looked at the urinary excretion of both trimethylamine and its detoxification product TMAO in humans.  They found that 60 percent of free choline and 30 percent of carnitine, another potential precursor, was excreted in the urine as one of these two products, but that neither betaine nor phosphatidylcholine converted to either product at all. In fact, these authors even fed 46 different foods to humans and looked at the subsequent excretion of trimethylamine and TMAO.  Choline-rich foods like liver and eggs did not produce any increase in urinary trimethylamine or TMAO over control levels.  In fact, even carnitine-rich meats failed to increase excretion of these compounds.  The only foods that increased excretion of TMAO were seafoods, which naturally contain some trimethylamine, giving them their “fishy” smell. Here is a representative selection of seafoods and other animal foods: Here we see that only seafoods, naturally contaminated with trimethylamine, increase the urinary excretion of trimethylamine and TMAO in humans.  Liver, eggs, and meat do not. These authors explained their results by citing research showing that the enzyme phospholipase A cleaves phosphatidylcholine, or lecithin, into a compound called lysolecithin in the small intestine where it is efficiently absorbed.  By contrast, other forms of choline travel to the colon where gut bacteria make enzymes that convert them to trimethylamine.

 

I wish the study was not "closed access" one. Here it is: "Dietary precursors of trimethylamine in man: a pilot study" http://www.sciencedi...l/02786915/37/5. 

 

However, the authors were themselves citing another source, which I guess (since I can't read the paper itself) is this: "FACTORS INFLUENCING CHOLINE ABSORPTION IN THE INTESTINAL TRACT" (see file JCI102646.pdf in the attachment, downloaded from http://www.jci.org/a...view/102646/pdf). And this is a quote from the summary of the above-mentioned document: "The TTMA excretion does not increase as much after the administration of lecithin as after the administration of an equivalent amount of choline, suggesting that a greater amount of choline is absorbed if it is given in bound form." The study has been published in 1952. It's kind of old. I wonder if there's something more up-to-date?

Attached Files

•  www-westonaprice-org.pdf   454.26KB   1388 downloads
•  JCI102646.pdf   887.23KB   481 downloads

[MachineGhostX]

Annoying.  My impression is hucksters Kurzweil/Grossman are once again just talking out of their bums.  They are conflating choline with PC.  PC is only 13% choline, so I think what they really mean is they want a relatively larger dose of choline than the pityful 195mg in a tablespoon of lecithin, which is only 23% PC, and to be able to sell such a product at premium like all their other overpriced, privately labeled supplements.

 

The solution to me seems to be just take choline bitartrate which is about 41% choline.  Nature's Way sells a mislabeled elephant-sized 1300mg tablet which provides 500mg of choline.  For $8 or so.

Edited by MachineGhostX, 19 January 2015 - 01:48 PM.

[logan113]

doesn't seem to difficult too get high concentration of PC : http://www.americanl.../aboutphos.html

Edited by logan113, 24 January 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Multivitz]

Your body likes a negative ion environment to heal and grow. A cheap phosphorus rich supplement has an adverse effect on this environment forcing the body to dump precious alkalines like magnesium to maintain the status quo. Thats why its good to do green juicing but even plants have mineral deficiencies! I found PC could use all my available zinc stores in a couple of days, even on half dose!! PC from solgar and prienerspride (or something) are the ones I have tried and I must say the stuff is fantastic at rebuilding the whole body period. Im in my mid forties and can read the bottom line on the eye test chart and can hear them pesky anti loitering alarms on some days! It stops pulled muscles, stiff necks, rebuilds organs, it made my heart shrink as my left part of breast bone was raised beforehand(reasearch swollen hearts) I am currently fighting a blood fungus infection that will go away soon (I have been trying remedies for a year now lol but its under control, honest). It improves cognative functions but long term memory relies on your plasma fields so I recommend Magnesium (not oxide or citrated!!). Don't forget its the whole diet that gets results things will slow down if something is missing. I have a friend who added L-Proline to great effect, but just go easy with the aminos or you'll be mega dosing the vitamins before you know it lol.

[Multivitz]

It must be in oil form at least. The nano sized droplets can go through the tiny pores in a cell wall and also resist stomach actions when in an oil form.