821 replies to this topic

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

Less than 1 hour - "Jive Turkey"

 

....enuff said           

 

If anyone can figure out the obvious reason why the oh, so insightful pure is oh, so misguided kudos, though it should be of so obvious to anyone who knows the dynamics of scale production

 

Really a sad character.  Sure would be nice if there was some way to find a med for that atrocity of a condition/dispsition

 

Anyway, I am sure we have not heard the last from his brilliant ratings and ravings, but maybe someone better get him his BP meds and stat 

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 28 April 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[pleb]

Perhaps pure was weaned on vinegar. ???

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Due to work obligations, I haven't had time so far to ask all the questions of the group (not TLR) about the previous testing plan that was posted. But a real quick question here: Is VERITAS INCORRUPTUS signing off his post here as Forty Six & 2? Are we speaking with one company rep with 2 accounts?

 

My Very Best to All & Best Success!

The Always Apparently Irrational and Corrupt Forty Six & 2 (please    )

 

 

[pure]

and what has "scale production" as you state below got to do with anything?

you have told the group that you synthesized a new Lot?

or are you now changing that and telling the group that this was a lie, and in actual fact you arranged to have bulk stock synthesized 1 year ago aliquoted instead?

 

And no, pleb, I wasn't weaned on vinegar. I can just spot BS a mile away. And I call a spade a spade rather than live in denial.

If it doesn't bother you that he has doctored the name of the HPLC file to change it to the year 2015 (but stupidly not realised it's not May yet), and the fact that the reports are dated 2014, then there's no helping.

 

Less than 1 hour - "Jive Turkey"

 

....enuff said           

 

If anyone can figure out the obvious reason why the oh, so insightful pure is oh, so misguided kudos, though it should be of so obvious to anyone who knows the dynamics of scale production

 

Really a sad character.  Sure would be nice if there was some way to find a med for that atrocity of a condition/dispsition

 

Anyway, I am sure we have not heard the last from his brilliant ratings and ravings, but maybe someone better get him his BP meds and stat 

 

Edited by pure, 28 April 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[Forty Six & 2]

Some of our posts are mutual, collaborative efforts and may be posted by any of the Team at timeS.

Generally Forty Six signs these regardless. Just his way.

[zorba990]

This is both sad and comical. At this point I have more confidence in my fish store methylene blue by a long shot. Tubes here but stored for the time being. I will wait for others to ingest such unknowns. Thanks for your efforts logic, I don't blame you for any of this.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

What's unknown?

 

We never claimed whole new batches were synthesized, but that we ran a new production, meaning re-doing the mixture and lyophilization and aliquoting.

 

The HPLC for both The GHK and GHK=Cu are from batches ran by our long-time supplier last year; the shelf life life is more than adequate for no significant degradation to be incurred.

 

Indeed, it is comical how so many cannot see simple facts and play up everything like there is some grand conspiracy.  

 

As stated, we have a third party lab willing to do an assay on the blend, but since nothing will seem to satisfy any of those who seem to never be satisfied it all seems just best left alone and let those with some basic rational sense move forward with what they are I am sure more than confident is a 1:1 mixture of GHK and GHK-Cu in a sterilized lyophilized powder state.

 

Not good enough for you, than likely no much else is unless it has some seal from Sigma or such, which BTW is no 1000% guarantee if you have been around the game of serious research long enough.  No discredit to them, as they are a tight outfit, but not infallibable.

 

To those pushing for progress in these important areas I thank you for your confidence and support and only hope to have TLR be able to supply more and more of the highest quality materials for such innovative research.  If that's not your cup o' tea, sorry...but for many they are MORE than satisfied and then some.

 

None of it's really comical, and it is an area admittedly of serious endeavor; however, most of what seem to pass for rational logic and evaluatuon is just downright silly.

 

Kudos to those who apparently 'get it' 

 

EOD 

 

 

[zorba990]

What's unknown?

We never claimed whole new batches were synthesized, but that we ran a new production, meaning re-doing the mixture and lyophilization and aliquoting.

The HPLC for both The GHK and GHK=Cu are from batches ran by our long-time supplier last year; the shelf life life is more than adequate for no significant degradation to be incurred.

Indeed, it is comical how so many cannot see simple facts and play up everything like there is some grand conspiracy.

As stated, we have a third party lab willing to do an assay on the blend, but since nothing will seem to satisfy any of those who seem to never be satisfied it all seems just best left alone and let those with some basic rational sense move forward with what they are I am sure more than confident is a 1:1 mixture of GHK and GHK-Cu in a sterilized lyophilized powder state.

Not good enough for you, than likely no much else is unless it has some seal from Sigma or such, which BTW is no 1000% guarantee if you have been around the game of serious research long enough. No discredit to them, as they are a tight outfit, but not infallibable.

To those pushing for progress in these important areas I thank you for your confidence and support and only hope to have TLR be able to supply more and more of the highest quality materials for such innovative research. If that's not your cup o' tea, sorry...but for many they are MORE than satisfied and then some.

None of it's really comical, and it is an area admittedly of serious endeavor; however, most of what seem to pass for rational logic and evaluatuon is just downright silly.

Kudos to those who apparently 'get it'

EOD

So you saying the material is a year old now? That's a new wrinkle. What was the deal with the delay then? You seem awfully smug for someone who has unhappy customers.

[david ellis]

 

 

These HPLC charts herein included represent the GHK and GHK-Cu materials we used to create the blend.   We as well prior offered to have the material third party assayed by a credible lab we located at a fair pricing, within a  proper chain of custody from a single 100mg vial donation (to be replaced), but nobody followed through and we assumed most here being of rationale and intelligence assumed no one was certainly looking to pull some fast one here, ...and for what reason.

 

 

 

 

 

And BTW, it's 2015.

So WTF are you posting HPLC's for GHK and GHK-Cu dated 2014? Fool.

Or is that just another "baseless" observation highlighting your jackass incompetence as well?

 

It seems you mis-understood VERITAS INCORRUPTUS "represent the GHK and GHK-Cu materials we used to create the blend" to mean that the documents were results of a test of our group buy material.   Veritas Incorruptus was very clear - he offered to test for a price and did not receive an acceptance of his offer.

 

Pure, yelling and epithets are not the way to do business.   Stay cool, don't make mistakes.   I think the problem is that our group buy is not documented by us.   I am assuming that there is not a piece of paper that covers everything (like paying for tests) approved by all the buyers.   (Or even a majority of buyers).   With out  an agreement, it is no surprise that many people are unhappy.  From TrueLife Research's viewpoint, what happened is we accepted their terms when we clicked on their link.    

[pure]

If you want to keep living in denial David, that's your prerogative.

And if it doesn't bother you that he changed the file name to indicate they are dated 2015, even though the tests are dated 2014, then that's also your prerogative.

And if all the other stuff-ups along the way don't bother you, then that too is also your prerogative.

.

But if you ask everyone who participated in the GB if they believed they were getting newly synthesized product, the answer would be "yes".

And the fact that 46+2 didn't disclose they were merely going to aliquot and lyophilize 1 year old stock (and not have new stock synthesized) is yet another reason why they are dodgy.

Aliquoting and lyophilisation takes all of 2 days. So why once the green light was pressed did it take a month or more to "produce"?

.

"Hope" is the most powerful word in the English language. It makes people do stupid things, especially if you live in it.

The people here cannot be expected to "document" the GB as you put it. There's no blame attributable to them.

I think the problem is that you are dealing with a jackass incompetent, completely unprofessional and inept supplier.

.

Heisenburger, in post 368, coined it exactly when he posted in reply to a 46+2 post:

"For God's sake, don't you even know the difference between a milligram and a microgram?"

.

But all that being said, there is an easy option to arrange testing, as stated in post 326 from Logic:

"..Ceretropic has offered to pay for the testing of TLR products.."

Someone just needs to follow it up. Possibly still not too late.

.

Though I am not sure whether the presence of Mannitol means that a HPLC is no longer possible.

BUT.. TLR have previously offered to make available a 100 mg vial for testing.

And if they are offering to do this with full knowledge that the vial contains Mannitol, then I'm sure HPLC must still be possible,

because they would surely know if Mannitol renders HPLC impossible, and thus if it does, then they would not be offering a 100 mg vial for testing.

But since they are, it must still be possible to do an HPLC on peptide containing Mannitol.

Edited by pure, 29 April 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Hebbeh]

I'll donate a 100 mg vial out of the 40 I purchased to put this issue to rest and hopefully reassure all the participants of the GB....IF we can agree on BOTH a verifiable fool proof method for testing AND a trustworthy lab.  What are our options?

[johnross47]

Got mine today, in rural Scotland; faster than expected. But I won't be starting it for a while since my doctor has just put me on new meds; it would be hard to know what to blame if there are unwanted side effects. One substance at a time! In the mean time I will watch other's results with interest.

[dz93]

Has anyone who tried this still alive to report anything? Side effects, no effects, anything at all?

[Ark]

Since GHK has been around for a while, I'm wondering if someone can compare what's been synthesized vs previous experience with GHK?

[david ellis]

I'll donate a 100 mg vial out of the 40 I purchased to put this issue to rest and hopefully reassure all the participants of the GB....IF we can agree on BOTH a verifiable fool proof method for testing AND a trustworthy lab.  What are our options?

 Loren Pickart writes -"This fragility and rapid breakdown of GHK and other simple copper peptide complexes is the major problem in developing products for clinical and cosmetic use."

 

 

True Life Research believes that GHK is robust and hasn't expired. Loren Pickart wrote that GHK is fragile.   I don't know what to do now. Will testing the GHK give a usable answer?   If so, I am in favor.

 

[Heisenburger]

I think he’s referring to in vivo enzymatic breakdown. In one of his papers he mentions a half-life in cutaneous tissue of about 30 seconds.

[niner]

From the article that david linked:

 

 

In the human body, the GHK-Cu complex can be constantly generated. However, when used as a single dose therapy, its fragility leads to rapid breakdown, clearance from the dermis, and a loss of effectiveness.       

In 1975, during attempts to isolate GHK from human blood, we found that the molecule was especially vulnerable to carboxypeptidases and was rapidly degraded by blood enzymes.  Intradermal injections of GHK are cleared from the skin in approximately 30 seconds. If added to blood, GHK is rapidly degraded into constituent amino acids by blood enzymes. Endo, Miyagi, and Ujie also reported that GHK was rapidly degraded by blood plasma and rapidly eliminated from rats. (Reference, Endo, Miyagi, and Ujie, Kissei Pharmaceutical Co., Simultaneous determination of glycyl-L-histidyl-L-lysine and its metabolite, L-histidyl-L-lysine, in rat plasma by high-performance liquid chromatography with post-column derivatization.J Chromatogr B Biomed Sci Appl 1997 Apr 25;692(1):37-42)

 

 

This is clearly talking about in vivo metabolic degradation; in other words, GHK-Cu has terrible pharmacokinetics.  This is not related to its stability in vitro (literally, "in glass")-- in the vial it comes in. 

[dz93]

From the article that david linked:

In the human body, the GHK-Cu complex can be constantly generated. However, when used as a single dose therapy, its fragility leads to rapid breakdown, clearance from the dermis, and a loss of effectiveness.
In 1975, during attempts to isolate GHK from human blood, we found that the molecule was especially vulnerable to carboxypeptidases and was rapidly degraded by blood enzymes. Intradermal injections of GHK are cleared from the skin in approximately 30 seconds. If added to blood, GHK is rapidly degraded into constituent amino acids by blood enzymes. Endo, Miyagi, and Ujie also reported that GHK was rapidly degraded by blood plasma and rapidly eliminated from rats. (Reference, Endo, Miyagi, and Ujie, Kissei Pharmaceutical Co., Simultaneous determination of glycyl-L-histidyl-L-lysine and its metabolite, L-histidyl-L-lysine, in rat plasma by high-performance liquid chromatography with post-column derivatization.J Chromatogr B Biomed Sci Appl 1997 Apr 25;692(1):37-42)

This is clearly talking about in vivo metabolic degradation; in other words, GHK-Cu has terrible pharmacokinetics. This is not related to its stability in vitro (literally, "in glass")-- in the vial it comes in.

Based on this, it seems like we all wasted money buying this right? If it only last for 30 seconds or is rapidly broken down then are we getting any benefits from it?

But more importantly, I'm wondering if someone wouldn't be able to come up with a synthetic version that is much more stable and has a better half life. I wouldn't expect that anytime soon, though.

[pleb]

This was discussed earlier and a figure of 30 seconds to 20 minutes before breaking down in the blood was mentioned. Blood goes completely round the body in less than 2 minutes.

[Heisenburger]

Also, Pickart mentions that despite the fact that the substance is degraded almost instantly in skin tissue, it sets off a chain reaction which persists for several days afterward.

[dz93]

Also, Pickart mentions that despite the fact that the substance is degraded almost instantly in skin tissue, it sets off a chain reaction which persists for several days afterward.

Link?

[Heisenburger]

Can’t find it right now. Do some digging—it will turn up. It’s been discussed and quoted here, quite possibly in this very thread. Maybe it was an oral presentation, not a published paper.

[Heisenburger]

I'm a 'tard—read niner's post (#467).

[johnross47]

Logic's post 97 seems to be the one referred to.

 

...GHK has a half-life in blood plasma of about 1/2 to 2 hours. But this may not matter since once cells are very briefly exposed to the molecule, they start a sequence of regenerative actions. For example, in our assays for stimulation of hair growth in mice, radioactive GHK was cleared from the skin less than 30 seconds, yet hair growth was strongly stimulated in about 10 days.

3. There are companies planning to add liposomal GHK to supplement mixtures. But the best mixture might be GHK, Thymogen (a dipeptide), and dalargen (an opioid). Here the effective systemic GHK needed for wound healing or bone healing is about 80-fold lower than GHK alone...

...GHK is highest in humans at age 20-25. For GHK human concentrations, we compared male medical students (20-25) (200 nanograms/ml and healthy faculty of average age 60 at UCSF (60 nanograms/ml)...

[zorba990]

So whats a reasonable oral dose? 1-2mg? More?

[pleb]

From memory the amount mentioned in the trail was 20ug to 200ug. ug in Europe is 1 millionth of a gram. I'm assuming that it's the American use of ug which would be the same as the European mcg. Can anyone confirm which was used. as both ug and mcg are used in the US for the same amount according to articles I've read on equivalent measurments online.

[dz93]

From memory the amount mentioned in the trail was 20ug to 200ug. ug in Europe is 1 millionth of a gram. I'm assuming that it's the American use of ug which would be the same as the European mcg. Can anyone confirm which was used. as both ug and mcg are used in the US for the same amount according to articles I've read on equivalent measurments online.

What are you asking? Mcg and ug both mean micrograms.

[pleb]

Im asking where the trials were done. In Europe ug is a millionth. Only in the US do they use both ug and mcg to mean the same which is thousandths.

[dz93]

As far as I know here in the US mcg means microgram which is one millionth of a gram and ug also means microgram which is still one millionth of a gram. What made you think ug and mcg mean one thousandth in the US? The metric system is the metric system. Its not any different in the US. What does ug mean in Europe? What does mcg mean in Europe?

I known I didn't answer your question about where the trials were done but I really need to know if I'm misunderstanding you when you say ug and mcg mean something different in the US

[pleb]

Sorry it appears I had a brain fart. I'm thinking milli and confused it with mg.