821 replies to this topic

[Heisenburger]

Does anybody know offhand the molecular weight of 1:1 GHK/GHK-Cu?

[Metagene]

Basically from what I understand if ADJ01 has a 99.16% match to taurine it means it's chemical structure is a 99.16% match to taurine in the reference library. The leftover percentage is not filler.

OK...?
So what could I add to Taurine to get a 50% match to Taurine?
Would flour, sea-sand, NSI-189 or ADJ01 (whatever that is) work ?

"leftover percentage is not filler"
Could it be the active ingredient?

Basically from what I understand if ADJ01 has a 99.16% match to taurine it means it's chemical structure is a 99.16% match to taurine in the reference library. The leftover percentage is not filler.

OK...?
So what could I add to Taurine to get a 50% match to Taurine?
Would flour, sea-sand, NSI-189 or ADJ01 (whatever that is) work ?

"leftover percentage is not filler"
Could it be the active ingredient?

No ADJ01 was reported to be just plain old taurine.

Here's a better explanation from MYASD

Take a look at the spectrum from the ADDX-OX
Now look at the spectrum from the 99.16% match Taurine (ADJ01)
See the spectrums, and how the peaks are the same?
Now look at their Memantine.
So lets say they had a 95% Taurine and 5% Memantine mixture. Those peaks from the memantine would fuck the spectrum up. We would see other things in there. Then we would have to GC/MS it to separate the ingredients, and look at the masses of each, to get a perfect picture of what the compounds were. The ADDX-OX has no other distinctive peaks in it!

No it would not. It would show the peaks in the spectrum from the other things in it, like their OB-1 capsules did. That was mostly Niacin, but did have other things in it. You can overlay the spectrums from the 99.16% Taurine sample with the ADDX-OX, and there are no other distinctive peaks. That would denote there is nothing else in there that is structurally different than Taurine.However, if people really think it's legit, I can send off a sample to be GC/MS tested. That will separate anything that does exist.

http://www.reddit.co...results/cp0452f
http://www.reddit.co...results/cp03rdt

[Logic]

No ADJ01 was reported to be just plain old taurine.

Here's a better explanation from MYASD

Take a look at the spectrum from the ADDX-OX
Now look at the spectrum from the 99.16% match Taurine (ADJ01)
See the spectrums, and how the peaks are the same?
Now look at their Memantine.
So lets say they had a 95% Taurine and 5% Memantine mixture. Those peaks from the memantine would fuck the spectrum up. We would see other things in there. Then we would have to GC/MS it to separate the ingredients, and look at the masses of each, to get a perfect picture of what the compounds were. The ADDX-OX has no other distinctive peaks in it!

No it would not. It would show the peaks in the spectrum from the other things in it, like their OB-1 capsules did. That was mostly Niacin, but did have other things in it. You can overlay the spectrums from the 99.16% Taurine sample with the ADDX-OX, and there are no other distinctive peaks. That would denote there is nothing else in there that is structurally different than Taurine.However, if people really think it's legit, I can send off a sample to be GC/MS tested. That will separate anything that does exist.

http://www.reddit.co...results/cp0452f
http://www.reddit.co...results/cp03rdt

 

Thx Metagene

I am no HPLC expert but the 2 graphs look sufficiently different for them to be slightly different compounds, or Taurine with a little something else added?

Or would 0.1% Memantine added to Taurine give spikes of the same amplitude as the 100% Memantine does in its graph?

Edited by Logic, 05 March 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[Forty Six & 2]

Does anybody know offhand the molecular weight of 1:1 GHK/GHK-Cu?

 

We are exceedingly busy with restoration of our website, which was near decimated in a hack, however, allow me to jump in and note I will gladly try to get back shortly with information regarding this and otherwise within assistance with testing.

 

We are happy to replace a vial that anyone sends to Smithx, or elsewhere, as within Smithx does not seem quite on target within this.

As well, we are happy to send Smithx or anyone else a free gram (10 x 100mg vials) for their trouble.

 

As we are intensely engaged in restoration of our website kindly note that is very consuming at the moment.

It is back up, but there is still much that needs to be restored within most all and everything was decimated.

 

We thank you greatly for your kind patience and understanding.

[niner]

That reddit thread is a lot of hullabaloo over a pretty sketchy analytical technique.  They are trying to determine purity by looking at IR spectra of a mixture, and matching the spectrum to a library spectrum.  If the mixture is mostly taurine but has a small but correct percentage of some noot, the noot peaks could easily hide under the taurine peaks.  The "percentage match" doesn't refer to purity, it comes from the matching algorithm.  That kind of software is meant to be used to obtain a plausible identification of an unknown.  Then you are expected to do more work to nail down exactly what you're dealing with.  In this case, there should have been a followup HPLC.  This case smells a bit like the NY Attorney General's grandstanding case where they tried to use DNA testing to identify supplements that were not supposed to contain DNA.  That dealt a lot of damage to the supplement industry, and I'm afraid this is doing the same thing to TLR.  TLR needs to step up and address this, if they are in fact innocent.  They are far too opaque, IMHO.

[smccomas01]

Thank you Niner I was hoping you would chime in. 

[Logic]

That reddit thread is a lot of hullabaloo over a pretty sketchy analytical technique.  They are trying to determine purity by looking at IR spectra of a mixture, and matching the spectrum to a library spectrum.  If the mixture is mostly taurine but has a small but correct percentage of some noot, the noot peaks could easily hide under the taurine peaks.  The "percentage match" doesn't refer to purity, it comes from the matching algorithm.  That kind of software is meant to be used to obtain a plausible identification of an unknown.  Then you are expected to do more work to nail down exactly what you're dealing with.  In this case, there should have been a followup HPLC.  This case smells a bit like the NY Attorney General's grandstanding case where they tried to use DNA testing to identify supplements that were not supposed to contain DNA.  That dealt a lot of damage to the supplement industry, and I'm afraid this is doing the same thing to TLR.  TLR needs to step up and address this, if they are in fact innocent.  They are far too opaque, IMHO.

Thx Niner.

I would like to organise proper testing of GHK/GHK-Cu.
Surely Genscript or similar have run HPLC etc tests on GHK and GHK-Cu if not a 50/50 mixture of both?
Is it possible to get those graphs and results from such companies and use them for comparison purposes?
Or perhaps have them test a random sample from one of us?

Plz tell us how you would go about testing GHK/GHK-Cu?

Edited by Logic, 05 March 2015 - 11:53 PM.

[Metagene]

That reddit thread is a lot of hullabaloo over a pretty sketchy analytical technique. They are trying to determine purity by looking at IR spectra of a mixture, and matching the spectrum to a library spectrum. If the mixture is mostly taurine but has a small but correct percentage of some noot, the noot peaks could easily hide under the taurine peaks. The "percentage match" doesn't refer to purity, it comes from the matching algorithm. That kind of software is meant to be used to obtain a plausible identification of an unknown. Then you are expected to do more work to nail down exactly what you're dealing with. In this case, there should have been a followup HPLC. This case smells a bit like the NY Attorney General's grandstanding case where they tried to use DNA testing to identify supplements that were not supposed to contain DNA. That dealt a lot of damage to the supplement industry, and I'm afraid this is doing the same thing to TLR. TLR needs to step up and address this, if they are in fact innocent. They are far too opaque, IMHO.

Okay thanks for clearing that up niner. The language barrier does them no favors. Almost every word amounts to empty rhetoric.

[smithx]

You can compare HPLC graphs if you duplicate the conditions perfectly and use identical media.

 

Depending on what we could get, from where, that could be possible or could not be possible.

 

The lab I usually use is a high-volume facility: they can change some parameters, but are not about to replace a column for a single test for me.

 

There's another lab I've used a bunch which will do that, but the cost will probably be $450 or $500 per sample (if not more), and at that rate I can't pay for it myself. 

 

 

 

That reddit thread is a lot of hullabaloo over a pretty sketchy analytical technique.  They are trying to determine purity by looking at IR spectra of a mixture, and matching the spectrum to a library spectrum.  If the mixture is mostly taurine but has a small but correct percentage of some noot, the noot peaks could easily hide under the taurine peaks.  The "percentage match" doesn't refer to purity, it comes from the matching algorithm.  That kind of software is meant to be used to obtain a plausible identification of an unknown.  Then you are expected to do more work to nail down exactly what you're dealing with.  In this case, there should have been a followup HPLC.  This case smells a bit like the NY Attorney General's grandstanding case where they tried to use DNA testing to identify supplements that were not supposed to contain DNA.  That dealt a lot of damage to the supplement industry, and I'm afraid this is doing the same thing to TLR.  TLR needs to step up and address this, if they are in fact innocent.  They are far too opaque, IMHO.

Thx Niner.

I would like to organise proper testing of GHK/GHK-Cu.
Surely Genscript or similar have run HPLC etc tests on GHK and GHK-Cu if not a 50/50 mixture of both?
Is it possible to get those graphs and results from such companies and use them for comparison purposes?
Or perhaps have them test a random sample from one of us?

Plz tell us how you would go about testing GHK/GHK-Cu?

 

 

[Wololo]

Hello,

 

Is the gorup buy still open or any possibility to order a couple of grams on the side?

If so i would appreciate that the conductor of this group buy contact me. Thanks in advance.

[Logic]

Hello,

 

Is the gorup buy still open or any possibility to order a couple of grams on the side?

If so i would appreciate that the conductor of this group buy contact me. Thanks in advance.

 

I'm afraid not Wololo, but there should be another soon if it works as hoped, so do keep an eye on this thread.

[tepol]

 

Hello,

 

Is the gorup buy still open or any possibility to order a couple of grams on the side?

If so i would appreciate that the conductor of this group buy contact me. Thanks in advance.

 

I'm afraid not Wololo, but there should be another soon if it works as hoped, so do keep an eye on this thread.

 

 

I'm in the same boat Wololo ...just waiting to see where all this leads ( hopefully not death ) :D

[resting]

5g of GHK and 5g of GHK-CU  has arrived from Active Peptide. Nothing from TeamLR and active was ordered way after.

 

Edited by resting, 11 March 2015 - 12:28 PM.

[smccomas01]

Resting not trying to pry, how much was the 5g from Active? 

[resting]

Copper Peptide GHK-Cu (#AP103002) Package: 5 grams 1 $165

GHK without copper (#AP103008) Quantity: 5 grams 1 $225

 

Cart Subtotal: $390

 

Shipping:$32.34 via US Domestic Delivery   Order Total:   $422.34

 

So $88.47  for 1g 50/50

Edited by resting, 11 March 2015 - 12:39 PM.

[Heisenburger]

Great. I’ll bet it didn’t take them a month and a half to get it to you, either.  I have to call Chase today to straighten out a fraudulent charge on my debit card (completely unrelated to TLR). While I'm on the phone I’ll see if there’s anything I can do about getting my money back from these fruitcakes. If I can get it back, I’ll set it aside and earmark it for a 10-gram order from AP. I’ll keep half and sell the other half on eBay, and give y’all advance notice of the listing so that you can have first crack at it. I'll just sell it at a simple 10% markup, and I'll mail it in a 5 X 7 padded envelope to avoid ridiculous shipping charges.

Edited by Heisenburger, 11 March 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[resting]

1 March 2015 ordered and arrived today. Which was exactly as expected.

 

Edited by resting, 11 March 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[pure]

Common sense, logic and reason has prevailed!

Good on you, resting, for taking the initiative.

Do you actually mean $42.23 for 1 gram 50:50, or $88.47 for 2 grams 50:50?

 

 

Copper Peptide GHK-Cu (#AP103002) Package: 5 grams 1 $165

GHK without copper (#AP103008) Quantity: 5 grams 1 $225

 

Cart Subtotal: $390

 

Shipping:$32.34 via US Domestic Delivery   Order Total:   $422.34

 

[smccomas01]

Resting thanks for the info, when do you plan to begin trial? 

[nowayout]

I think a lot of money and time are being wasted by a number of people here. 

 

Peptides are not absorbed orally - they get digested in the small intestine. 

 

They are certainly not absorbed transdermally or sublingually. 

 

 

[resting]

pure --  if you are having 0.5g of GHK  + 0.5g of GHK-Cu   then $88.47

 

smccomas01 -- probably next week. I need to work out delivery method.

 

Human skin retention and penetration of a copper tripeptide in vitro as function of skin layer towards anti-inflammatory therapy

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2945467/

 

The results obtained show that a topical organic copper complex such as GHK-Cu may be an alternative to copper delivery by injection, also potentially providing a skin reservoir likely to become available over time. This effect warrants further development toward transdermal delivery of the anti-inflammatory agent, especially when considering GHK as ligand, a nature identical carrier tripeptide [8]. In the past, several laboratories demonstrated local and systemic anti-inflammatory activity of copper compounds by oral, ip, iv, and particularly subcutaneous administration. Having shown permeation of the skin barrier by GHK-Cu in a therapeutically effective dose, however, application of this principle to transdermal dosing may now offer a realistic alternative to current, traditional therapeutic routes and agents. Taking our results a step further, one can optimize the controlled release of copper for anti-inflammatory therapy using patch technology with well-designed formulations. This would present a welcome alternative to current methods, which rely on corticosteroids, NSAIDs, chrysotherapy, or the family of COX-2 cyclooxygenase inhibitors as analgesics and anti-inflammatory agents, since most of them are associated with untoward side effects [30–32], some of them causing considerable discomfort, depending on the mode of administration.

Edited by resting, 11 March 2015 - 08:30 PM.

[mike_nyc]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11457652

 

What about nasal absorption?

[nowayout]

 

Human skin retention and penetration of a copper tripeptide in vitro as function of skin layer towards anti-inflammatory therapy

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2945467/

The article checked penetration of copper only, not of the whole compound. 

 

That was what they were mainly interested in - delivering copper, not GHK.

 

It is possible that only the copper fraction dissociated from the GHK and penetrated.  In fact, they acknowledge this explicitly.  For example:

 

 

Such high tissue retention of copper may be attributed to intradermal decomplexation and re-binding to various endogenous amino acids of higher nucleophilic donor capacity than the original ligand.

 

In other words, they are saying the GHK may well have got left behind.  They are certainly not testing for penetration of GHK at all. 

Edited by nowayout, 11 March 2015 - 11:13 PM.

[resting]

Left behind where? 

 

But as stated I need to decide deliver.

 

Edited by resting, 11 March 2015 - 11:13 PM.

[nowayout]

Left behind where? 

 

 

This is a question they don't answer.  On the skin surface for all we know, or the cytoplasm of the outer epidermal layer cells.  The point is that the paper doesn't test penetration of GHK.   

Edited by nowayout, 11 March 2015 - 11:16 PM.

[resting]

Looks like it will have to be the old fashioned way then to be 100% sure.

I will look at a possible liposomal route also.

Edited by resting, 11 March 2015 - 11:39 PM.

[Metagene]

It is possible that administration of GHK-Cu could be used as a preventive and regenerative therapy for senescent or damaged brain tissue. Using GHK-Cu has an advantage over using just GHK, since it alleviates copper deficiency without the risk of oxidative damage. Even though it is yet not clear whether or not the GHK-Cu peptide can pass the blood-brain barrier, there is a high possibility that it will do so, since GHK-Cu has a very high uptake into human skin, easily passing through the lipids of the epidermal barrier [66, 67]. The peptide could be administered intravenously or orally when encapsulated into liposomes.Strong systemic wound healing was induced in pigs at about 1.1 mg GHK-Cu per kilogram body weight which would correspond to about 75 mgs in humans. This is about 300-fold below GHK-Cu's toxic action (lowering of blood pressure). Much lower dosages may also be effective since GHK-Cu's actions on cells generally occur at a 1 nanomolar concentration [68].

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3359723/

[Metagene]

Human skin retention and penetration of a copper tripeptide in vitro as function of skin layer towards anti-inflammatory therapy

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2945467/

The article checked penetration of copper only, not of the whole compound.

That was what they were mainly interested in - delivering copper, not GHK.

It is possible that only the copper fraction dissociated from the GHK and penetrated. In fact, they acknowledge this explicitly. For example:

Such high tissue retention of copper may be attributed to intradermal decomplexation and re-binding to various endogenous amino acids of higher nucleophilic donor capacity than the original ligand.

In other words, they are saying the GHK may well have got left behind. They are certainly not testing for penetration of GHK at all.

Actually if you read the next paragraph the explanation is quite clear.

Assessing whether permeant retained in skin tissues, the stratum corneum in particular, eventually becomes available systemically is an issue of ongoing discussions. Reservoir formation in the course of in vitro studies has been addressed [17]. Retained drug may be lost to natural desquamation, limiting its eventual systemic availability. On closer analysis, however, it has been found that the fraction of chemical sloughing off versus the part that becomes systemically available depends on the ratio of lag time to the turnover time for the stratum corneum [18]. Accordingly, at least 80% of the amount in the stratum corneum will become available if the lag time for penetration through that tissue is less than approximately 16 h This corresponds to 5% of the typical stratum corneum turnover time of 14 days. Consequently, based on our results where lag times ranged from 2 to 7 h, the copper retained in the stratum corneum has the potential to become systemically available also. As a result of the experiment with dermatomed skin, by topical application of GHK-Cu under the present conditions 200–250 μg/cm2 copper may become systemically available. Since the experiment was conducted ex vivo, it is possible that even larger amounts will be retained in the deeper dermal tissue in vivo, to be followed by further diffusion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2945467/

Edited by Metagene, 12 March 2015 - 12:12 AM.

[Phoenicis]

Just to be clear I'm not interested in joining this group buy. I'm in no way qualified to give medical advice and don't take this as such. I have seen some reports on the internet of this being used topically and causing something called the ugliness in higher doses. Could this peptide have toxic effects in higher doses? Is this really something people should be messing around with without medical supervision?

[nowayout]

 

 

Human skin retention and penetration of a copper tripeptide in vitro as function of skin layer towards anti-inflammatory therapy

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2945467/

The article checked penetration of copper only, not of the whole compound.

That was what they were mainly interested in - delivering copper, not GHK.

It is possible that only the copper fraction dissociated from the GHK and penetrated. In fact, they acknowledge this explicitly. For example:

Such high tissue retention of copper may be attributed to intradermal decomplexation and re-binding to various endogenous amino acids of higher nucleophilic donor capacity than the original ligand.

In other words, they are saying the GHK may well have got left behind. They are certainly not testing for penetration of GHK at all.

Actually if you read the next paragraph the explanation is quite clear.

Assessing whether permeant retained in skin tissues, the stratum corneum in particular, eventually becomes available systemically is an issue of ongoing discussions. Reservoir formation in the course of in vitro studies has been addressed [17]. Retained drug may be lost to natural desquamation, limiting its eventual systemic availability. On closer analysis, however, it has been found that the fraction of chemical sloughing off versus the part that becomes systemically available depends on the ratio of lag time to the turnover time for the stratum corneum [18]. Accordingly, at least 80% of the amount in the stratum corneum will become available if the lag time for penetration through that tissue is less than approximately 16 h This corresponds to 5% of the typical stratum corneum turnover time of 14 days. Consequently, based on our results where lag times ranged from 2 to 7 h, the copper retained in the stratum corneum has the potential to become systemically available also. As a result of the experiment with dermatomed skin, by topical application of GHK-Cu under the present conditions 200–250 μg/cm2 copper may become systemically available. Since the experiment was conducted ex vivo, it is possible that even larger amounts will be retained in the deeper dermal tissue in vivo, to be followed by further diffusion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2945467/

 

 

They are talking about penetration the COPPER.  They explicitly hypothesize that they think the copper is retained well because it gets dissociated from the GHK, suggesting that they think the GHK would hinder retention. It is unclear why they think this and where they think the GHK goes - but they didn't try to detect GHK, so we can really not conclude anything about GHK penetration from their experiment. For all we know the GHK is lysed in the first surface cell it enters after donating the copper.  Or not.  The experiment doesn't say. 

 

 

Such high tissue retention of copper may be attributed to intradermal decomplexation and re-binding to various endogenous amino acids of higher nucleophilic donor capacity than the original ligand.

 

Edited by nowayout, 12 March 2015 - 01:29 PM.