821 replies to this topic

[zen]

There seems to be little support for 3rd party testing.    I would like to know if enough people are interested, so please PM me with a few words about testing support.

 

I am interested in testing the stuff we received from TLR. However, I have zero experience regarding the testing procedures, the proper lab we would have to use, pricing etc. Because of that my participation has to be limited to providing a couple of sample vials for testing and paying a part of the testing cost expense.

I think it would be very useful (not only for this particular group buy but also for the future group buys initiatives) if we could work out a reliable testing procedure instead of trying to reinvent a wheel each time we have a new group buy.

However, for this to happen we would need someone with a proper education and experience in that area who is willing to help us with that effort.
Also, I think it would be good if we could figure out a reasonable way to compensate the person for his/her time.

I hope this makes sense.

Edited by zen, 31 May 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[dz93]

There seems to be little support for 3rd party testing. I would like to know if enough people are interested, so please PM me with a few words about testing support.

I emailed a few companies with no response which is why I think I shouldn't be the one contacting a company. Maybe I'm not saying the right things or I'm just too uneducated about testing for them to take me seriously.

Either way I'm surprised that hardly anyone who participated in this buy are willing to support third party testing.

As I've said before I am willing to contribute money for testing, not completely because I want to find out if my GHK is really GHK but because I want to know whether or not TLR is a sketchy business.

So if someone can get through to a company for LC/MS testing please contact me and I'll help pay.

Edit: As the poster above suggested, we really should have a reliable place where we can get things tested after group buys like this. Group buys are absolutely great but not having confidence in the product you've bought isn't. Im really surprised no one have come up with a platform for group buys or at least used some outside software or app that could help organize these things more efficiently.

You'd think there would be something where people who wanted to join a group buy could add fill out a form where it would request their name, contact info, amount to be purchased, etc and then once they've filled out the form they would be submitted into the group where private info will be kept private but other users can see who's all in, the total amount being bought, etc and then have a final date to be entered in and after that date submissions will be closed. People who are in the buy could submit their payment to escrow, where they could pull out at anytime if they wish for whatever reason, even though that should be discouraged, and once the final arrangements for the synthesis or whatever is finished, the money in escrow could be sent to the synth company. But in order to make sure not just one person is in charge of the money, the payment could only be made once everyone has accepted the terms and have "unlocked" their money I'm escrow to be sent. If someone doesn't unlock their money in time they forfeit the buy.

Of course there's more details that need to be thought of but something like that seems like it would be a great platform for group buys. I'm sure someone has already made something like that but its just an idea.

Edited by dz93, 31 May 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[tintinet]

There seems to be little support for 3rd party testing.    I would like to know if enough people are interested, so please PM me with a few words about testing support.

 

I'm up for financially supporting 3rd party testing.

[Hebbeh]

I'll donate a 100 mg vial out of the 40 I purchased to put this issue to rest and hopefully reassure all the participants of the GB....IF we can agree on BOTH a verifiable fool proof method for testing AND a trustworthy lab.  What are our options?

 

As previously mentioned, if anybody has both the expertise and contacts to accommodate testing in a worthwhile and affordable manner, I will participate.

[Ark]

Did you message ceretropic? They have said in the past they would test questionable products. (If I remember correctly)

[dz93]

Did you message ceretropic? They have said in the past they would test questionable products. (If I remember correctly)

They already tested it, even though the test may have no been able to detect GHK so it may not be correct, I'm not sure they would want to pay for LC/MS testing. I'd imagine it'd cost more than some of the other methods of testing. But then again I know too little about this. I'll send them a message just to see what they say.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

So has anyone here actually done anything with their GHK from TLR? I agree with Zen, David and others interested in testing. I have 40 vials on ice until testing is done. PM sent.

[david ellis]

Somebody worried that the  GHK-Cu had failed testing, niner had a lot to say about that.

 

 

http://www.longecity...-17#entry729142

 

Niner wrote - "Oh Lord, here we go again.  This is the same half-assed analytical methodology we saw last time.  There was no ghk-cu in their database, so it picked the next best thing, something called "poria", along with several other compounds of dubious nature.   This means nothing.  Hang on to your samples.  Don't throw them out or set them on fire.  You need to run a sample through an LC/MS.  That will separate all the individual components in the mixture and characterize them by their MW at the very least."

 

We are a group of six at this count.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ark]

Somebody worried that the GHK-Cu had failed testing, niner had a lot to say about that.


http://www.longecity...-17#entry729142

Niner wrote - "Oh Lord, here we go again. This is the same half-assed analytical methodology we saw last time. There was no ghk-cu in their database, so it picked the next best thing, something called "poria", along with several other compounds of dubious nature. This means nothing. Hang on to your samples. Don't throw them out or set them on fire. You need to run a sample through an LC/MS. That will separate all the individual components in the mixture and characterize them by their MW at the very least."

We are a group of six at this count.

And just how would a normal forum members go about doing that...

[david ellis]

 

We are a group of six at this count.
 

And just how would a normal forum members go about doing that...

 

My first question, do you have skin in this game?

[Ark]

We are a group of six at this count.

And just how would a normal forum members go about doing that...

My first question, do you have skin in this game?

Yes, not that it's any of your business.

We are a group of six at this count.

And just how would a normal forum members go about doing that...

My first question, do you have skin in this game?

Now answer my question.

[Ark]

Considering TLRs roll on Longecity as a sponsor, anyone that might directly or indirectly do business with them has "skin" or a interest in discovering the truth. Considering I have had a checkered past with a shill named Dagger on Longecity, which pretty much gave the game away for me.


Part of the problem here is people who have used them in the past think they are way to smart to be duped, it's like TLR used people's egos against themselves.

Edited by Ark, 02 June 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Ark]

We are a group of six at this count.

And just how would a normal forum members go about doing that...

My first question, do you have skin in this game?

Why are you against progress?

[Ark]

Somebody worried that the GHK-Cu had failed testing, niner had a lot to say about that.


http://www.longecity...-17#entry729142

Niner wrote - "Oh Lord, here we go again. This is the same half-assed analytical methodology we saw last time. There was no ghk-cu in their database, so it picked the next best thing, something called "poria", along with several other compounds of dubious nature. This means nothing. Hang on to your samples. Don't throw them out or set them on fire. You need to run a sample through an LC/MS. That will separate all the individual components in the mixture and characterize them by their MW at the very least."

We are a group of six at this count.

IMHO niner is extremely biased in favor of TLR, I'm not saying he's wrong but he gives them the benefit of the doubt every time no matter what it seems.

[Ark]

Why is it whenever anyone comes to defend TLR on everything from marketing to special mystery blends it's always Niners word as proof that TLR is legit. I get the fact he's been here forever, but he's not infallible no matter how smart he is, and which he appears very intelligent. But still it's not the same thing as solid testing and lab results+ nothing can explain away the dishonesty I've seen on this thread, just skim through and it's clear they tried to mislead people.

Edited by Ark, 02 June 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[dz93]

From Ceretropic.com

"FTIR is a very valid testing method. We did not just look at the library results it matched to. We looked at the whole spectrum, and analyzed where the peaks should be. It is clearly missing many functional groups. Ketones always show up in the same place on an FTIR, and are very pronounced. Those peaks alone not showing up tell us it is not GHK. I sat down and analyzed the spectrum results for 2 hours with multiple chemists. They both agreed that sample cannot contain GHK. It might contain copper II, as that peak was off our snapshot. However, that is not really a big deal when the peptide itself is wrong.

I am not saying it is Poria. That is just the closest spectral match. I am saying that the sample is missing multiple functional groups that GHK should have. FTIR is very suited to pickup up functional groups. I can send off for LC/MS if you want. That is not an issue. It will just take some time to get the results. Our HPLC will be here in a day or so too. So we can LC the components, and test each individually as well.

On another note, I sent those other TLR samples that came back as Taurine to the lab. The lab manager there said he did not believe it was going to come up as Taurine, just based on the color of the powder. However, he called me a few days ago and said that all four perfectly matched Taurine. He was dumbfounded, since he thought it was for sure going to come up as something else. He is still finalizing the results of those for me."

"I've spent a lot of time the past couple months learning analytical chemistry methods, and have hired two chemists now as well. FTIR is great at picking up functional groups, if you know how to analyze it. It is a good tool to use for a quick idea of what you have. Our HPLC is going to allow us to separate components, and give us hard purity numbers. Then we are getting an NMR sometime later this year as well. With all three of those, we can pretty much test anything. A mass spec would be the only other thing that could be used in some cases.

Keep in mind that for us to get 100% certainty on this TLR sample, we need to separate the components via GC or LC. Our HPLC will allow us to separate the components. There is clearly mannitol in there, as would be expected in a lyophilized peptide. Separating that out on the HPLC, and then testing the other compound in it, will give us a complete picture."


I've told them I'd post the email here for you guys to see and we can decide whether or not we still want to pursue LC/MS testing.

[zorba990]

From Ceretropic.com

"FTIR is a very valid testing method. We did not just look at the library results it matched to. We looked at the whole spectrum, and analyzed where the peaks should be. It is clearly missing many functional groups. Ketones always show up in the same place on an FTIR, and are very pronounced. Those peaks alone not showing up tell us it is not GHK. I sat down and analyzed the spectrum results for 2 hours with multiple chemists. They both agreed that sample cannot contain GHK. It might contain copper II, as that peak was off our snapshot. However, that is not really a big deal when the peptide itself is wrong.

I am not saying it is Poria. That is just the closest spectral match. I am saying that the sample is missing multiple functional groups that GHK should have. FTIR is very suited to pickup up functional groups. I can send off for LC/MS if you want. That is not an issue. It will just take some time to get the results. Our HPLC will be here in a day or so too. So we can LC the components, and test each individually as well.

On another note, I sent those other TLR samples that came back as Taurine to the lab. The lab manager there said he did not believe it was going to come up as Taurine, just based on the color of the powder. However, he called me a few days ago and said that all four perfectly matched Taurine. He was dumbfounded, since he thought it was for sure going to come up as something else. He is still finalizing the results of those for me."

"I've spent a lot of time the past couple months learning analytical chemistry methods, and have hired two chemists now as well. FTIR is great at picking up functional groups, if you know how to analyze it. It is a good tool to use for a quick idea of what you have. Our HPLC is going to allow us to separate components, and give us hard purity numbers. Then we are getting an NMR sometime later this year as well. With all three of those, we can pretty much test anything. A mass spec would be the only other thing that could be used in some cases.

Keep in mind that for us to get 100% certainty on this TLR sample, we need to separate the components via GC or LC. Our HPLC will allow us to separate the components. There is clearly mannitol in there, as would be expected in a lyophilized peptide. Separating that out on the HPLC, and then testing the other compound in it, will give us a complete picture."


I've told them I'd post the email here for you guys to see and we can decide whether or not we still want to pursue LC/MS testing.

Since GHK-CU portion contains copper, wouldn't that also be off the snapshot?

[Volcanic]

 

Since GHK-CU portion contains copper, wouldn't that also be off the snapshot?

 

 

You mean the whole GHK-Cu? I don't think the testing works that way; it's detecting individual atoms and chemical bonds, not whole molecules. So, Cu (II) might be in there, but the GHK surrounding it is not. According to Ceretropic.

[dz93]

This is going no where. Since only two other people are willing to help pay for testing, im dropping out. Its obvious that everyone else who has bought this stuff doesn't care what's in it otherwise we would be seeing more support for group testing.

I trust ceretropic and I trust their ability to accurately test and analyze compounds. Ceretropic has never given me any reason to doubt them or their products. TLR has on numerous occasions.

I'm buying GHK again but this time from a more reliable vendor. The rest of you can have fun with whatever is in those vials. I don't want anything to do with this group buy anymore. Waste of time.

And I'm not saying all group buys are a waste. Some have been very successful. We just made a huge mistake with who we decided to purchase it from.

[Hebbeh]

If you read the thread, at least 6 or 7 have posted as willing to participate in testing and there may be more....the problem lies in a plan for accomplishing testing. I agree though....I don't have high expectations that we have the peptide...but would like to find out one way or the other.

[dz93]

If you read the thread, at least 6 or 7 have posted as willing to participate in testing and there may be more....the problem lies in a plan for accomplishing testing. I agree though....I don't have high expectations that we have the peptide...but would like to find out one way or the other.

There is a plan. I emailed Ceretropic. The emails are a few posts above. They state the results ceretropic obtained from their testing method then stated that they are still willing to do LC/MS if we want.

The plan is done. All I need to do is let them know that we want to move forward with LC/MS testing and then I'm sure we'll have to send them a sample and have them send us a price. Then we can all send money to ceretropic to perform testing. Since ceretropic is a trusted company I don't see any problem with just sending them the money direct over PayPal. That way no one here on the forums is responsible for anything.

The plan is done and made. Now it waiting on you guys to make the decision. Move forward with LC/MS or not? Its a simple yes or no question but everyone has avoided that question.

[Hebbeh]

As posted previously, I can donate a vial out of my 40 and am willing to contribute to the cost if not cost prohibitive....guess we need a price and then see who really wants to pony up.

[dz93]

As posted previously, I can donate a vial out of my 40 and am willing to contribute to the cost if not cost prohibitive....guess we need a price and then see who really wants to pony up.

Just sent back another email asking for an estimated cost for the testing. I will let you guys know the price as soon as I know.

[niner]

IMHO niner is extremely biased in favor of TLR, I'm not saying he's wrong but he gives them the benefit of the doubt every time no matter what it seems.

 

It's not that I'm biased in favor of TLR, it's that I don't want to see anyone's business destroyed by amateur analytical results that may well be incorrect.

 

 

Why is it whenever anyone comes to defend TLR on everything from marketing to special mystery blends it's always Niners word as proof that TLR is legit. I get the fact he's been here forever, but he's not infallible no matter how smart he is, and which he appears very intelligent. But still it's not the same thing as solid testing and lab results+ nothing can explain away the dishonesty I've seen on this thread, just skim through and it's clear they tried to mislead people.

 

Well, thanks for the kind words.   No one should take anything I say as proof that TLR is legit.  I'm just saying that what's been shown by Ceretropic doesn't prove that TLR is NOT legit.   Ceretropic is not an analytical chemist, but he's posting things on the internet that look sciency, and are sufficient to generate a reddit lynch mob.   I don't know if Ceretropic is a competitor of TLR or not, but if he is, that is a distinct conflict of interest.

[dz93]

IMHO niner is extremely biased in favor of TLR, I'm not saying he's wrong but he gives them the benefit of the doubt every time no matter what it seems.

It's not that I'm biased in favor of TLR, it's that I don't want to see anyone's business destroyed by amateur analytical results that may well be incorrect.

Why is it whenever anyone comes to defend TLR on everything from marketing to special mystery blends it's always Niners word as proof that TLR is legit. I get the fact he's been here forever, but he's not infallible no matter how smart he is, and which he appears very intelligent. But still it's not the same thing as solid testing and lab results+ nothing can explain away the dishonesty I've seen on this thread, just skim through and it's clear they tried to mislead people.

Well, thanks for the kind words. No one should take anything I say as proof that TLR is legit. I'm just saying that what's been shown by Ceretropic doesn't prove that TLR is NOT legit. Ceretropic is not an analytical chemist, but he's posting things on the internet that look sciency, and are sufficient to generate a reddit lynch mob. I don't know if Ceretropic is a competitor of TLR or not, but if he is, that is a distinct conflict of interest.

Not trying to be a smart ass, as this is a legit question, what experience do you have in analytical testing? Basically, why should we believe that you know what you're talking about?

I know this sounds like I'm trying to be a smartass or challenge your credibility but it is a legit question. No harm or arguments intended.

Edit: and if it'll be a conflict of interest to have ceretropic help us with LC/MS testing, where can we get this testing done? I've already emailed two other companies that perform LC/MS analysis but none have emailed me back. I suspect they don't take individual requests. Therefore I'm at a loss here. I just want this issue to be done with.

Niner, based on what you've been saying you do seem to be slightly educated in testing methods. Can you not help us organize or find a company to get this tested? As you said, you'd hate to see a company be ruined based on inaccurate testing. So you should be even more inclined to figure out the true results than any of us here.

Edited by dz93, 03 June 2015 - 08:50 PM.

[niner]

There is a plan. I emailed Ceretropic. The emails are a few posts above. They state the results ceretropic obtained from their testing method then stated that they are still willing to do LC/MS if we want.

The plan is done. All I need to do is let them know that we want to move forward with LC/MS testing and then I'm sure we'll have to send them a sample and have them send us a price. Then we can all send money to ceretropic to perform testing. Since ceretropic is a trusted company I don't see any problem with just sending them the money direct over PayPal. That way no one here on the forums is responsible for anything.

The plan is done and made. Now it waiting on you guys to make the decision. Move forward with LC/MS or not? Its a simple yes or no question but everyone has avoided that question.

 

Is Ceretropic in fact a trusted company?  They said they could send the sample out for LC/MS testing; wouldn't it be better if one of us dealt with the lab?  It would also be nice to know if the lab is legit.  Here are some professional labs that came up in a quick google search:  (search term = analytical labs lc)  There are undoubtedly plenty more, this is just an example of real labs.   Assuming that they will deal with individuals, you'd tell them that your sample is supposed to contain whatever it's supposed to be, and that you'd like to get a quote on tests for identity, purity, and hazardous contaminants.  I wouldn't expect it to be cheap, which is why so many people skip this step.
 
www.avomeen.com/‎
www.intertek.com/analytical-laboratories/
www.chemir.com/

[dz93]

There is a plan. I emailed Ceretropic. The emails are a few posts above. They state the results ceretropic obtained from their testing method then stated that they are still willing to do LC/MS if we want.

The plan is done. All I need to do is let them know that we want to move forward with LC/MS testing and then I'm sure we'll have to send them a sample and have them send us a price. Then we can all send money to ceretropic to perform testing. Since ceretropic is a trusted company I don't see any problem with just sending them the money direct over PayPal. That way no one here on the forums is responsible for anything.

The plan is done and made. Now it waiting on you guys to make the decision. Move forward with LC/MS or not? Its a simple yes or no question but everyone has avoided that question.

Is Ceretropic in fact a trusted company? They said they could send the sample out for LC/MS testing; wouldn't it be better if one of us dealt with the lab? It would also be nice to know if the lab is legit. Here are some professional labs that came up in a quick google search: (search term = analytical labs lc) There are undoubtedly plenty more, this is just an example of real labs. Assuming that they will deal with individuals, you'd tell them that your sample is supposed to contain whatever it's supposed to be, and that you'd like to get a quote on tests for identity, purity, and hazardous contaminants. I wouldn't expect it to be cheap, which is why so many people skip this step.

www.avomeen.com/‎
www.intertek.com/analytical-laboratories/
www.chemir.com/

Thank you Niner. I'll email them immediately. And yes, I'm sure it would be expensive which is why I proposed the idea of group testing.

So I'll email them and post the responses as soon as I get them. I'll also still post the quote from ceretropic and I'll ask which company they were going to go through so we can determine whether it'll be a good company for us to go through ourselves or not.

After Niners response, I think it'll be a good idea to keep ceretropic out of this. That way there will be absolutely no way to dispute the test.

[niner]

Not trying to be a smart ass, as this is a legit question, what experience do you have in analytical testing? Basically, why should we believe that you know what you're talking about?

I know this sounds like I'm trying to be a smartass or challenge your credibility but it is a legit question. No harm or arguments intended.

Edit: and if it'll be a conflict of interest to have ceretropic help us with LC/MS testing, where can we get this testing done? I've already emailed two other companies that perform LC/MS analysis but none have emailed me back. I suspect they don't take individual requests. Therefore I'm at a loss here. I just want this issue to be done with.

Niner, based on what you've been saying you do seem to be slightly educated in testing methods. Can you not help us organize or find a company to get this tested? As you said, you'd hate to see a company be ruined based on inaccurate testing. So you should be even more inclined to figure out the true results than any of us here.

 

That's a legit question.  My formal training (BS, MS, PHD) is in various areas of chemistry.  I've taken some courses in various analytical techniques and the usual basic lab stuff.  I've run various forms of spectroscopy and chromatography in school, and worked in pharma where I was around it a lot but didn't run it myself. 

 

I don't really have a dog in this fight, although I'm in favor of truth and justice...  I was composing my last post during the time that you posted this, so I hadn't seen it yet.  I could send out a couple emails and see what they say.  My major concerns are whether or not they'll work with individuals and what it would cost.

 

BTW, what is this stuff supposed to be again, it's been so long I've forgotten. (I'm not a part of the group buy)  My recollection is that it's 50% GHK, 50% GHK-Cu, and we think some mannitol.  Is that what it is?

 

Edit:  Just saw your last post-- thanks for volunteering to email.  (I should learn to post faster!)

Edited by niner, 03 June 2015 - 09:51 PM.

[dz93]

Not trying to be a smart ass, as this is a legit question, what experience do you have in analytical testing? Basically, why should we believe that you know what you're talking about?
I know this sounds like I'm trying to be a smartass or challenge your credibility but it is a legit question. No harm or arguments intended.

Edit: and if it'll be a conflict of interest to have ceretropic help us with LC/MS testing, where can we get this testing done? I've already emailed two other companies that perform LC/MS analysis but none have emailed me back. I suspect they don't take individual requests. Therefore I'm at a loss here. I just want this issue to be done with.

Niner, based on what you've been saying you do seem to be slightly educated in testing methods. Can you not help us organize or find a company to get this tested? As you said, you'd hate to see a company be ruined based on inaccurate testing. So you should be even more inclined to figure out the true results than any of us here.

That's a legit question. My formal training (BS, MS, PHD) is in various areas of chemistry. I've taken some courses in various analytical techniques and the usual basic lab stuff. I've run various forms of spectroscopy and chromatography in school, and worked in pharma where I was around it a lot but didn't run it myself.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, although I'm in favor of truth and justice... I was composing my last post during the time that you posted this, so I hadn't seen it yet. I could send out a couple emails and see what they say. My major concerns are whether or not they'll work with individuals and what it would cost.

BTW, what is this stuff supposed to be again, it's been so long I've forgotten. (I'm not a part of the group buy) My recollection is that it's 50% GHK, 50% GHK-Cu, and we think some mannitol. Is that what it is?

Thank you for answering. And yes, it is 50 50 GHK-Cu/GHK with mannitol. According to ceretropic, the sample does indeed contain mannitol. Its GHK that we're trying to figure out. I've submitted quote requests to all three of those companies. I should also note that as soon as I gave intertek my phone number I immediately got a spam text message... Maybe a coincidence. Or my information just got sold lol. Who knows. Anyways, hopefully I'll get a response this time.

[dz93]

Avomeen gave me a quote of $4,000 to $6,0000 for indentification, purity and testing for volatile or hazardous substances. I asked what it would cost for just indetification alone and that's around $2,000 to $3,000. They said the peptide testing is the most expensive part.

 

On a side note, Ceretropic gave me quote for testing at $600.

 

I'll wait a few days until I hear back from the other two companies. I'd imagine Avomeen is out of the question lol.

 

Edit: I was thinking, if testing is really in the four figure range then it may be best to go with ceretropic. I know Niner mentioned it would be a conflict of interest but what if Ceretropic infrormed us of the testing company, allowed us to send them the sample directly, and just pay ceretropic for testing. The results can then be emailed direct from the company to someone here on the forums. We would be going through ceretropic but they wouldn't have access to the sample nor the results so that way we know no one has messed with the results or sample.

It's just an idea but it may be our only option if testing will be this expensive. I trust Ceretropic but by doing it this way, people who don't trust them can be sure the results are legit.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by dz93, 04 June 2015 - 01:39 PM.