26 replies to this topic

[eon]

I'm not only talking about drugs. Food and sex can become addiction as well. The internet as well. What is addiction? Isn't getting attention also a form of addiction? I've seen people waste their time pursuing the significant other and sometimes when these people text back and forth on their phones it appears similar to a crack or heroin addict calling or texting their dealers to get their fix. Sometimes the dealer is too busy to give the addict what they want. I suppose this is similar when a person seeks to get attention from a significant other or person of interest in hopes of getting what they want (sex, attention, etc.) even though you can't always get what you want unless you have money. Similar to a drug addict story in other words. How does the brain fight this urge to want something?

Edited by eon, 02 November 2014 - 07:57 AM.

[eon]

Interesting, no response yet.

 

When people think of addiction they automatically think "drugs". Isn't it possible to be addicted to people as well? People that you like, whether people in the same town as you, the opposite sex, or public figures like celebrities, etc. I've seen people waste their time chasing this "high" of chasing a person of interest, mostly for romantic involvement. This can be as bad as looking for that drug to get you high. What causes this addiction?

 

When an addict does not get their fix, they get depressed. Just today, a coworker of mine who seem to like the new person at work, hanged around at the workplace on his day off, the new girl wasn't there, but I know what's going on with him. He wants her. If only I could tell him that he is wasting his time. I think this happens to a lot of people, this addiction, this craving for attention which is why they go to bars, clubs, social gatherings, facebook, to look important or cool, much the same way a drug addict uses up as much drugs to get high, to impress other drug users who are so caught up in the drug culture. Remember a time when chat rooms were cool? How many hours were you on it? I can remember a time when I was there all day. It felt like a drug, you feel so happy talking to new people, but you crash at the end of the day realizing you wasted your life doing nothing productive at all. Yet I came back daily, year after year till yahoo shut down their chat rooms. What is this "switch" to turn off such addiction? Just saying no sometimes isn't even enough.

Edited by eon, 05 November 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[jroseland]

Addiction is a little bit fuzzy because it's takes so many forms. There are so many mechanism of addiction... That's why one person can be addicted to Alcohol, another to sex and another to technology. I did two interviews with psychology experts on this topic... Hopefully you'll find them illuminating

 

What do you have addiction issues with? For me... I struggle with workaholiscm mostly and I spend too much time using technology.

 

[Bateau]

I don't have time/motivation to go into a full response since its incredibly complicated but if you look into ΔFosB and NMDA receptors and how they control addiction then maybe that'll set you on the path you're looking for.

 

Long story short, NMDA receptors and ΔFosB will be some of your more proven and ubiquitous etiologies of a wide variety of addictions, and NMDA inhibitors (Dextromethorphan and Memantine being the most commonly suggested/used, with Ibogaine having lots of potential) and ΔJunD activators will be some of the most ubiquitously effective treatments of such addictions.

 

Basically is stuff you already know. Reward system that were evolutionarily essential to make you desire to do the things that make you and your species survive (eat, exercise, have sex etc., the more "shallow" dopaminergic rewards; alot of the less "shallow" rewards, e.g. taking care of loved ones, have more to do with other neurotransmitters like serotonin, oxytocin and vasopressin) get hijacked in a manner that evolution has never set us up to deal with, since such things have never been deleterious to the ability of our species, as a whole, to survive and thrive.

Edited by Bateau, 08 November 2014 - 04:32 AM.

[eon]

I need a bit of clarification, so using dextrometorphan (DXM) which is an OTC cough medicine (Robitussin has DMX), this will fight "addiction" since it is an NMDA inhibitor? The other drugs you mentioned are prescription and or illegal (ibogaine).

 

I have no clue what the JunD activators are.

Edited by eon, 08 November 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[Thew]

For me, I can say it is an "addiction" if it causes harm to self/others.

[Bateau]

I need a bit of clarification, so using dextrometorphan (DXM) which is an OTC cough medicine (Robitussin has DMX), this will fight "addiction" since it is an NMDA inhibitor? The other drugs you mentioned are prescription and or illegal (ibogaine).

 

I have no clue what the JunD activators are.

 

Not exactly. Taking DXM with whatever potentially addicting thing will help your brain maintain naivety and prevent some of the adaptations that lead to tolerance and addiction. Wouldnt openly suggest this as DXM could interact with alot of drugs e.g. I've heard of nurses almost killing patients with opiates due to patients failing to mention taking DXM.

 

Most of the potent agents at reducing cravings acutely are prescription anti-psychotics (not suggesting you take).

 

Kinda hard to give proper advice without knowing more specifics.

Edited by Bateau, 08 November 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Arjuna]

Addictions include alcoholism, nicotine, sex, porn, gaming, gambling, pornography, and internet/social media/text messaging addiction. I believe the porn/internet/social media/text messaging/email/twitter type addictions are especially dangerous not in how destructive they are but how unnoticed they are. While they don't affect someone like a full blown cocaine addiction, they are completely socially acceptable and subversive, like smoking was in the 50s. Attention and infatuation are of course addictive, and someone who acts upon these motivations is considered by everyone as immature and a fool for love. Seeing someone going through an abrupt break up is like seeing a junkie with no fix.

How does the brain fight this urge to want something? It doesn't. Over time desires fade, but the brain is always primed to desire. All we can do is become aware of the process, that is what maturity is about. Why else would rites of passage to become an adult in so many cultures independently arise as near death experiences, acetic practices, or extremely painful experiences? They are there to accustom people with true pain, so that they can act without fear of losing what they desire, it is the only way to freedom. So be optimistic about your heartbreak or drug addiction, it is your chance to be free.


How to fix addictions:

Fixing addiction is a two pronged approach: by allowing the neurology to rebuild and by developing new habits. You can think of the hardware/software metaphor for the human brain. Through abstinence and time the reward centers (hardware) become sensitive to pleasure again, but if one doesn't have healthy habits or thought patterns (software) the cycle repeats itself. This isn't a perfect metaphor because the software is the hardware when taken literally. For example the prefrontal cortex (hardware) is developed as one gets better at self control (software). Also pathways to the reward centers (hardware) are connected more to healthy choices or thought patterns (software).



Ways to fix software:
-Building a routine of good habits. As you achieve things you wish to do you will build confidence in your ability to help yourself.
-Meditation. Becoming aware of your emotional states will help you cope with stress in a healthy way.
-Developing self control. Use things like reading or dual n back to develop your willpower, which is finite, and must be used only in short bursts to prevent relapses.
-Therapy, socializing, and or artistic expression. If you are able to relate with others about what you are going through it will aid in actualizing who you are and get you through the process by externalizing the problem as a separate identity.
-Removing the guilt cycle. Once you know you are (for lack of better words) powerless to something you must not devalue yourself for using it, or else guilt for using it becomes reason to self harm further by using it more. If you do this it will become a cycle and repeat itself. If you use your addiction then do so in a completely aware and honest way, it is not inherently wrong, it is just where you are in the process.
- - Psychedelics. They put you in a trance state where you became acutely aware of all the previous points, this is not necessary but they show promise in addiction.


Ways to fix hardware:
- Avoid stress. The addicted brain copes poorly with stress from diet or life experiences, so try to limit stress during withdrawals. This is the point of rehab, to go to a place where the addict has zero life responsibilities affecting their brain chemistry. Also a poor diet with low antioxidants is extremely stressful on the brain.
- Sleep. This is when your brain builds, get as much effective sleep as you can. Take melatonin (low dose), magnesium, and/or ashwagandha at night for sleep.
- Give the brain the building blocks it needs to grow neurons and synapses. This needs to happen in a low stress enviroment, so a good diet and antioxidant intake is necessary to begin with.
- Exercise. Voluntary, not over-training or stress producing exercise, is helpful for addicts.
- Give time for the reward center to repair itself. The brain is plastic. It takes 2 weeks for a minor addiction to rebuild dopamine receptors, so that is how long it takes for symptoms of anhedonia to go away, but this is not a sign that addiction is gone. It takes months for habits to become reliable in the brain because new pathways to the reward center take a while to develop, so even if you are feeling good you are still vulnerable to old behaviors. The means months of abstinence for minor addictions or permanent abstinence for major addictions are the only solutions.



BASIC SUPPLEMENTS
These are the supplements required just to have the brain able to repair itself at the normal rate.

Multivitamin

Magnesium (glycinate, threonate, or spray) and Zinc (methionine)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17536489
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1844558
http://omicsonline.o...05.php?aid=6610
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23950577
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7599515

Omega 3 (2-3g DHA and EPA combined)
http://examine.com/s...Oil/#summary5-3
-There is too much to cite here, but omega 3s are required for brain health and repair.



ADVANCED SUPPLEMENTS
These are supplements that show promise for repairing the brain at a faster rate than normal. Anything that upregulates NGF, BDNF, or GDNF can be thrown into this category such as ALCAR, PQQ, Lion's Mane, Royal Jelly. Anthing that is a building block for neuron membrane can go in this category such as inositol, serine, or choline.

Uridine
http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/

Ashwagandha
http://www.sciencedi...222180812602795
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19594760
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23439798
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22096544




ANTI ADDICTIVE SUPPLEMENTS
These are supplements that have direct anti-addictive properties.

agmatine
This one is less promising.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19066410
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10628739

D-Serine, Sarcosine, Glycine-site agonists
This is especially interesting because glycine site dysfunction on the NMDAR is a likely cause of schizophrenia, which shares characteristics with addict pathology.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23518710
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19595781
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20541592
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22728761



DOPAMINE RECEPTOR UP-REGULATION SUPPLEMENTS
These supplements will correct the pleasure response and fight anhedonia, but will not provide any solution to destructive habits (does not fix the software). These will give motivation and willpower, both of which are finite and will not get the addict out of addiction without habit corrections, and the supplements are not perfect solutions for anhedonia. These are not long term solutions.

Forskolin
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9376541
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9353595

NMDA Receptor antagonists
Magnesium does this naturally, but at a lower level. Agmatine is also a nmda antagonist. Memantine is a go-to for this. Some use DXM, but that has a really shitty anecdotal back up.
http://www.longecity...e-does-it-work/
It seems that the NMDA receptor functions best when it is not limited by glycine activation but by magnesium activation.





... good luck

Edited by Arjuna, 08 November 2014 - 06:02 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

GABA-B agonists like Baclofen have some evidence being anti-addictive.

[Bateau]

- Sleep.  This is when your brain builds, get as much effective sleep as you can.  Take metformin, magnesium, and/or ashwagandha at night for sleep.

Agmantine

This one is less promising.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19066410

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10628739

 

NMDA Receptor antagonists

Magnesium does this naturally, but at a lower level.  Memantine is a go-to for this. Some use DXM, but that has a really shitty anecdotal back up.

http://www.longecity...e-does-it-work/

It seems that the NMDA receptor functions best when it is not limited by glycine activation but by magnesium activation.

 

I'm pretty sure you mean melatonin instead of metformin, a diabetic medication (that's pretty friggin awesome)
 

Agmatine's primary MoA is NMDA antagonism (also some nNOS inhibition and maybe some other stuff) so it should be in that category, and also should be considered more effective than magnesium but less effective than memantine.

 

Also wanna agree that memantine seems to be the go-to while DXM, although legal, generally has shitty anecdotes unless regarding opiates for some reason.

[Arjuna]

Hah, yes I meant melatonin. Less than .5 mg preferable.

And agmatine should be in that category, but the fact that it down regulates adrenaline receptors makes it separate in effects, and probably synergistic with other anti addictive drugs like nmda antagonists. I wish people would consider skipping that whole Nmda antagonist route and just take magnesium because we are all deficient in it, and it is nature's anti addictive.

Edited by Arjuna, 08 November 2014 - 06:00 PM.

[medievil]

Ibogaine looks by far the most interesting compound, it completely reverses tolerance and mental addiction to most drugs after a trip or when taken in low daily doses.

[eon]

the low daily dosage isn't for tripping then? What does one feel when on it? I have used psilocybin mushrooms before at hallucinogenic dose of 2 grams (dried). I grew it my self. I've read somewhere non hallucinogenic dose would be just as therapeutic. I would assume low enough not to hallucinate but still a good amount of it, maybe 0.5 gram or less? 

 

Regarding ibogaine; "Derivatives of ibogaine that lack the substance's psychedelic properties are under development". Curious what they are and if they are available now? Any idea? There was one I believe called Lambarene which was derived from Ibogaine, but I can't find anyone selling them or if it's even available.

 

Since Iboga is a tryptamine, wouldn't anything tryptamine work as well such as DMT?

 

Ibogaine looks by far the most interesting compound, it completely reverses tolerance and mental addiction to most drugs after a trip or when taken in low daily doses.

 

Edited by eon, 09 November 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[eon]

Arjuna, I have never tried DHA and EPA at a high dose of 2-3 g. The most I have taken I think was 1.2 grams a day. I have yet to see the effect of a high dose DHA and EPA. One time I only took DHA, no EPA. EPA seem to be less important than DHA. I have tried the algae based DHA Neuromins up to 200mg max. It gave one of my eye a weird tiny white bump that was irritating which I thought was ocular herpes, The issue has been gone ever since I stopped supplementing with algae based DHA. I wonder what if any did it do to my brain? Anyway, do I stick with fish oil or what is the better DHA/EPA source? Krill? Cod Liver?

Edited by eon, 09 November 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[eon]

the plant family Apocynaceae is where Ibogaine can be found especially in Voacanga Africana and others as well. I've seen Vinpocetine sold with that name so upon looking it up, Vinca, where Vinpocetine is made from (vinca minor) also belonged to the Apocynaceae family of plants. Curious what the potential is of VInpocetine. I've used it and liked it. It isn't hallucinogenic though.

 

Ibogaine looks by far the most interesting compound, it completely reverses tolerance and mental addiction to most drugs after a trip or when taken in low daily doses.

 

[Flex]

Cocaine and other hard Drugs arent easy to handle.

Just google for cocaine experience reports.

 

HDAC and other play a role in this

This is my approach for it:

http://www.longecity...eversal-thread/

[eon]

I'd have to google what HDAC is, but can you explain what it is or if there is a supplement to take that could work for it specifically. I've seen your link mention NAC supplement which I have tried. It is great for treating trichotillomania and other OCD symptoms. Not sure if that is relevant to the thread's topic which is addiction. Maybe addiction is related to OCD? The compulsive part ala compulsive gambling which gambling is an addiction.

 

Cocaine and other hard Drugs arent easy to handle.

Just google for cocaine experience reports.

 

HDAC and other play a role in this

This is my approach for it:

http://www.longecity...eversal-thread/

 

Edited by eon, 11 November 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Flex]

NAC has been investigated for Gambling, Cocaine and other addictions with a few good results.

http://www.nature.co...pp2011164a.html

http://www.reddit.co...tylcysteine_or/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24676047

 

In regards to HDAC, well thats the problem.

I dont know which OTC or herb could inhibit HDAC definite.

 

HDAC is one of several ways to increase or decrease gene expression ( e.g. DNMT, Sirt, Gene methylation & etc.)

For example: Cocaine decreases cognitive flexibility via increased deacetylation of class 1 HDAC

( dont confuse "class" III or 3 with HDAC3 and other)

http://www.nature.co...ll/nn.3354.html

And this "could" be one of the reasons why cocaine has a long-lasting effect, since Gene expression is sometimes long-lasting

Also here, dont get confused with inherent Epi genetic alterations. They are unchangeable in some cases.

Afaik, some addicted think of Cocaine even after 6 Years (!)

 

More informations:

http://www.longecity...e-4#entry696487

 

According to table No.2, Skullcap and Gold Thread have HDAC inhibitory actions as well as some other compounds and some (of them) do actually increase Histone deacetylaction

http://www.biomedcen...1472-6882/14/68

http://www.biomedcen.../14/68/table/T2

http://www.hindawi.c...me/2013/821082/

 

The problem is, that I dont know whether they can pass the Blood brain barrier and if, would they also affect HDAC like in the other body parts ?

That are just my amateurish critical thoughts so dont rely on my assumptions/theories.

 

Another option would be to try Vorinostat

(consider allways on anything the possible side-effects)

http://www.longecity...problems/page-5

Just dont ask for the "regular" conditions.. its 10k

 

Whether a few 100 mg would be sufficient and whether HDAC inhibition is allways a good thing with no great side effects, is the next question.. I dont know

ask some body here or on reddit or elsewhere.

 

Edited by Flex, 11 November 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[eon]

skullcap is a known anxiolytic so I'm not sure what its role is regarding addiciton. I guess when one is less anxious, you become less to seek out this rush, this addiction?

[Flex]

As said, its at least a HDAC inhibitor for the peripheral cells.

Wheter its in the CNS/Brain, I dont know.

 

Other way arround: if Skullcap is a HDAC class 1 (and perhaps class 2) inhibitor, it would be helpful for addiction.

I´ve noticed actually the opposite after using Skullcap the first time : a seeking for cocaine, albeit very minor.

My last time of coc was long ago, nearly 2 years and even then consumed only 2-3 grams in total.

Admittely I could live with this, but want somehow obssesively to erradicate as much as possible of the traces in my Mind and Brain.

 

Dont know what caused this, because skullcap has other effects too

(IIRC) e.g. parp-1 activation.

 

As You´ve said rush, it popped in my mind that there are several aspects of addiction.

like: Rush seeking, coping with stress & etc.

 

This could be related to the rush:

Cell-Type Specific Expression of p11 Controls Cocaine Reward.

CONCLUSIONS:

Our data provide evidence that disruption of p11 homeostasis in the NAc, particularly in dopamine receptor-1 expressing medium spiny neurons, may underlie pathophysiological mechanisms of cocaine rewarding action. Treatments to counter maladaptation of p11 levels may provide novel therapeutic opportunities for cocaine addiction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24725970

 

or

Activation of the trace amine-associated receptor 1 prevents relapse to cocaine seeking.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24722355

 

via e.g.tyramine

http://www.longecity...pic-damn/page-6

 

Persistent reduction of cocaine seeking by pharmacological manipulation of adenosine A1 and A 2A receptors during extinction training in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24562064

 

via Cordyceps. Although its not selctive for adenosine A1

http://www.hindawi.c...am/2013/840134/

 

And this is for the stress related use:

Kappa opioid receptors regulate stress-induced cocaine seeking and synaptic plasticity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23473323

 

Dont know whether You are looking for Your self or for someone but:

Be in general allways carefull.

So dont exceed any recommendations or mix them & etc.

A hermorrhage or anything else could otherwise happen !

 

Edited by Flex, 12 November 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[Bateau]

@Flex

 

Skullcap has a weak dopamine reuptake inhibitor in it, which is what cocaine is, albeit much more potent. Perhaps that's the reason you felt an increase in cravings?

[Flex]

Hmm I cant say it for sure, but rhodiola rosea a mao inhibitor or Mucuna didnt caused this.

I could be perhaps also sensitive to DRI in regards to addiction-memories, as You´ve said but I dont know.

 

 

[Bateau]

Hmm I cant say it for sure, but rhodiola rosea a mao inhibitor or Mucuna didnt caused this.

I could be perhaps also sensitive to DRI in regards to addiction-memories, as You´ve said but I dont know.

 

Rhodiola's MAOI activity is probably not relevant in vivo, so I wouldn't consider the rhodiola anecdote relevant. 

The influence on monoamine oxidase has been brought into question as it has been found that oral Rhodiola ingestion failed to modify the 5-HT/5-HIAA ratio.[38]

→ source (external link)

[eon]

does this mean skullcap is not dopaminergic or only slightly?

 

@Flex

 

Skullcap has a weak dopamine reuptake inhibitor in it, which is what cocaine is, albeit much more potent. Perhaps that's the reason you felt an increase in cravings?

 

[eon]

Flex,

 

I've used cordyceps supplements before only as pre-workout boost. It is said to provide athletic prowess.

 

Regarding kappa opioid; menthol is suppose to work on the kappa opioid, which is why I drink peppermint teas (high in menthol). My addiction isn't so much drugs but sex. I already have a girlfriend but I'm easy to seek out more. That's also because the other girls wanted to be "chased" as well, hard to resist (like a drug per se). If I turn someone down, I get called a homo or simply a rejector, which I am not. LOL. I'm not the type to seek out attention either. I do not go to bars or clubs or have a Facebook, etc. I wish I could just "say no" to such addiction. 

[Major Legend]

This is where brain hardware and anti tolerance/withdrawal aid medicine. I have websites that supply either affordably (pm me if you wanna check them out, please let me know the exact kind of issue you are suffering from) - brain hardware to modulate the brain from tendencies, and chemicals to subdue the effects of withdrawal. In terms of habitual addiction, only brain hardware would suffice.

 

Oh also intermittentfasting and general calorific restrition helps loads in addiction. Also switch your phone, devices off for 4 hours a day, and anything that even produces electronic noise. It goes miles for me. I also recommend brain evolution system's free demo tape, but no need to buy the rest of the program, as the rest of the paid program focuses on "becoming in touch with god" type of stuff which is largely not very useful, but the free demo tape helps loads in seeing the big picture and refraining from addictive tendencies. Just get the free demo and then remove yourself from the annoying annoying newsletters.

 

It's just sounds of waterfalls and some holo synish  ech I don't quite understand, also executive function helps - for a non medical approach you can always try focus at will website which is also completely free.

 

ALSO reward yourself with feasts of stimulation everynow and then, traditional in evolution our bodies would not eat in predetermined times and cycles, starve for a long time and suddenly feast on stuff. Your body is well equiped to break the rules and just smash it every now and then, and if u don't do that over time you will just eventually end up with a suddenly insane outbreak of gorging on unhealthy foods, spending, drugs, hookers, gambling, dumping your wife/husband, have a candle put up your ass for stimulation or whatever  floats your boat, then proceed to regret it like you are some human being with uncontrollable demons...

Edited by Major Legend, 13 November 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[kurdishfella]

psychological or biological addiction? Addiction becomes when you do it everyday and train your body and so your body neurontransmitters adjust to it so you get your dopamine only when you do that addiction but not other things.So slowly incoperate other things and do it less and less until your body does not get depended on it like food and water.

Edited by kurdishfella, 08 August 2021 - 12:14 PM.