60 replies to this topic

[mealz13]

   I know that muscle matters to most men; hence the numerous men in the general populace chugging down whey protein and going to the gym constantly.  And I know that for a lot of men, even after hearing the possible effects of leucine restriction and methionine restriction, the whey chugging will continue.  Muscle is nice.  I am a cis-female, and even I like muscle, and I don't really want to put a lot of work into maximizing the amount of pushups (yes, real pushups) when I'm only eating ~50 grams protein a day.  I do not supplement with whey; I used to supplement with BCAAS but don't anymore, after hearing about leucine.

        So on to my question.  As it is genetically impossible without injected Testoerone, I am not looking to body-build.  However, I am looking to gain muscle from doing pushups and other exercises to improve my tennis game.  Is eating significantly less protein (~ RDA) going to make my training worthless?  Or is just meeting the RDA enough for women, and also men, to gain lean muscle mass and attain noticeable gains at the gym and/or sports performance?  I am assuming the answer is yes, however, before starting on my new muscle building routine, I want to know if all the sacrifice (yes, 1 hour a day at the gym is a sacrifice) is going to be worth it in the long run, given my protein consumption.  

[drew_ab]

http://www.forksover...better-athlete/

 

I just saw this today, and this thread make me think of it.

[JohnD60]

http://www.forksover...better-athlete/

 

I just saw this today, and this thread make me think of it.

 

He is a former pro body builder, he didn't build those muscles on a plant based diet. He has only been on a plant based diet since 2012. If you do a search you will see older pics of him more muscular than he is now, those pics of him in the red trunks are from early 2012. And just because he is on a plant based diet doesn't mean he isn't still injecting PEDs (or he is some 1 in 1000 genetic freak). He may not be a pro body builder anymore, but he is still selling something, his personal training service, all personal trainers claim they are natural.
 

Edited by JohnD60, 15 November 2014 - 05:41 AM.

[misterE]

Eat all the protein you want, if you are not in a calorie-surplus... you cannot build muscle. When you overfeed your body, you go into an anabolic-metabolism and your body handles and retains protein-stores (muscle) much more efficiently.  

Edited by misterE, 15 November 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[Maecenas]

I personally have quite big muscles and eat lots of protein - at least 100-120 g of pure protein daily. I weigh 81 kilograms. Since recently I began to substitute animal protein with soy. I take 40-50 g of soy protein daily for the last 5 months instead of eating meat or fish with no other changes in diet. I once read that famous fitness guru Jack Lalanne did the same for his entire life, taking 50 g of soy protein after his morning training.  Haven't noticed any improvement or worsening in my well-being, muscle size or definition so I plan to continue doing it. But in the summer I'd double the dosage to see if I'd be able to increase muscle size with soy. 

In my opinion, RDA numbers are too low to build any muscles, you need to consume twice as much protein to see significant results.

Edited by Maecenas, 15 November 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[krillin]

According to this graph, at the protein RDA strength training still builds more muscle than endurance training or net surfing.

[niner]

If you want to get the most out of a small amount of protein, try to concentrate your protein intake around your workout.  You should probably concentrate some Calories there as well, to avoid catabolism.  Supposedly there is a threshold effect in muscle-building, such that if your protein level is below the threshold, you don't grow.  If you spread your protein throughout the day, you may stay under the threshold the entire time.  I don't have quantitative information on any of this, but see the link that krillin posted.

[mealz13]

Very Interesting niner, thank you.  And thank you to everyone else who responded; a lot of valid points.  I think I will try concentrating my protein to around my workout and see what happens.  I guess it's mostly trial and error, and the reason I posted this question was out of laziness, but alas.  Anyways , I hope that I can get in great shape without extra protein...but we shall see.  Damn mTOR!

[tfor]

@ mealz

 

What exactly is wrong about leucine? I use whey protein daily, but only 30 grams in my morning shake to add some protein. Is there anything bad about this?

[krillin]

I concentrate protein after my workouts too, but it doesn't look like it's necessary.

 

J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2013 Dec 3;10(1):53. 

The effect of protein timing on muscle strength and hypertrophy: a meta-analysis.

Schoenfeld BJ, Aragon AA, Krieger JW.

Abstract 

Protein timing is a popular dietary strategy designed to optimize the adaptive response to exercise. The strategy involves consuming protein in and around a training session in an effort to facilitate muscular repair and remodeling, and thereby enhance post-exercise strength- and hypertrophy-related adaptations. Despite the apparent biological plausibility of the strategy, however, the effectiveness of protein timing in chronic training studies has been decidedly mixed. The purpose of this paper therefore was to conduct a multi-level meta-regression of randomized controlled trials to determine whether protein timing is a viable strategy for enhancing post-exercise muscular adaptations. The strength analysis comprised 478 subjects and 96 ESs, nested within 41 treatment or control groups and 20 studies. The hypertrophy analysis comprised 525 subjects and 132 ESs, nested with 47 treatment or control groups and 23 studies. A simple pooled analysis of protein timing without controlling for covariates showed a small to moderate effect on muscle hypertrophy with no significant effect found on muscle strength. In the full meta-regression model controlling for all covariates, however, no significant differences were found between treatment and control for strength or hypertrophy. The reduced model was not significantly different from the full model for either strength or hypertrophy. With respect to hypertrophy, total protein intake was the strongest predictor of ES magnitude. These results refute the commonly held belief that the timing of protein intake in and around a training session is critical to muscular adaptations and indicate that consuming adequate protein in combination with resistance exercise is the key factor for maximizing muscle protein accretion. 

PMID: 24299050

[krillin]

@ mealz

 

What exactly is wrong about leucine? I use whey protein daily, but only 30 grams in my morning shake to add some protein. Is there anything bad about this?

 

Leucine and whey protein are mTOR stimulants. Stimulating mTOR will make your stem cells resistant to mTOR and they'll stop responding. Inhibiting mTOR restores sensitivity and stem cells can then divide again when you cycle off of the mTOR inhibitor. Leucine and whey might be a good idea during this window. I currently use reishi as my mTOR inhibitor. (Reference 2. They underdosed the mice by an order of magnitude, so it's remarkable that it worked. They forgot the factor of 12.3 for human -> mice, and they wanted to use twice the human dose of 1 g, so they ended up using 2000 mg/70 kg = 28 mg/kg.)

 

Sci Signal. 2009 Nov 24;2(98):ra75. 

mTOR regulation and therapeutic rejuvenation of aging hematopoietic stem cells.

Chen C, Liu Y, Liu Y, Zheng P.

Abstract 

Age-related declines in hematopoietic stem cell (HSC) function may contribute to anemia, poor response to vaccination, and tumorigenesis. Here, we show that mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) activity is increased in HSCs from old mice compared to those from young mice. mTOR activation through conditional deletion of Tsc1 in the HSCs of young mice mimicked the phenotype of HSCs from aged mice in various ways. These included increased abundance of the messenger RNA encoding the CDK inhibitors p16(Ink4a), p19(Arf), and p21(Cip1); a relative decrease in lymphopoiesis; and impaired capacity to reconstitute the hematopoietic system. In old mice, rapamycin increased life span, restored the self-renewal and hematopoiesis of HSCs, and enabled effective vaccination against a lethal challenge with influenza virus. Together, our data implicate mTOR signaling in HSC aging and show the potential of mTOR inhibitors for restoring hematopoiesis in the elderly. 

PMID:     19934433

 

PLoS One. 2013;8(2):e57431.

Anti-tumor effects of Ganoderma lucidum (reishi) in inflammatory breast cancer in in vivo and in vitro models.

Suarez-Arroyo IJ, Rosario-Acevedo R, Aguilar-Perez A, Clemente PL, Cubano LA, Serrano J, Schneider RJ, Martínez-Montemayor MM.

Abstract 

The medicinal mushroom Ganoderma lucidum (Reishi) was tested as a potential therapeutic for Inflammatory Breast Cancer (IBC) using in vivo and in vitro IBC models. IBC is a lethal and aggressive form of breast cancer that manifests itself without a typical tumor mass. Studies show that IBC tissue biopsies overexpress E-cadherin and the eukaryotic initiation factor 4GI (eIF4GI), two proteins that are partially responsible for the unique pathological properties of this disease. IBC is treated with a multimodal approach that includes non-targeted systemic chemotherapy, surgery, and radiation. Because of its non-toxic and selective anti-cancer activity, medicinal mushroom extracts have received attention for their use in cancer therapy. Our previous studies demonstrate these selective anti-cancer effects of Reishi, where IBC cell viability and invasion, as well as the expression of key IBC molecules, including eIF4G is compromised. Thus, herein we define the mechanistic effects of Reishi focusing on the phosphoinositide-3-kinase (PI3K)/AKT/mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) pathway, a regulator of cell survival and growth. The present study demonstrates that Reishi treated IBC SUM-149 cells have reduced expression of mTOR downstream effectors at early treatment times, as we observe reduced eIF4G levels coupled with increased levels of eIF4E bound to 4E-BP, with consequential protein synthesis reduction. Severe combined immunodeficient mice injected with IBC cells treated with Reishi for 13 weeks show reduced tumor growth and weight by ∼50%, and Reishi treated tumors showed reduced expression of E-cadherin, mTOR, eIF4G, and p70S6K, and activity of extracellular regulated kinase (ERK1/2). Our results provide evidence that Reishi suppresses protein synthesis and tumor growth by affecting survival and proliferative signaling pathways that act on translation, suggesting that Reishi is a potential natural therapeutic for breast and other cancers. 

PMID:     23468988

[tfor]

I have been using whey protein for many years.

What does this mean now?

 

And what if all kinds of other foods also stimulate mTOR? Then cutting out whey wouldn't make any difference.

Is it really worth to get obsessed with such things and then not use whey anymore because of mTOR?

[lucid]

A couple thoughts:

Protien affects muscle growth because it is used as building blocks for muscles (which are made largely of protien) and because it signals anabolism and muscle growth.

 

However the main reason to eat lots of protien is because of the second reason - it signals muscle growth. Not much protien is required to build muscle --- you can look at gorillas which eat high carb low protien diets and are obviously extraordinarily strong and muscular primates. This is because not a tremendous ammount of protien is required to build muscle.

 

Muscle signalling via protien seems to be largedly mediated by BCAA's (a certain subset of the total amino acids that make up protien) and maybe just Leucine in particular. As mentioned before, the muscle growth effects are mediated through the TOR pathway.

 

The take away here is that you should be able to take BCAA's instead of protien to get alot of the muscle stimulation.

 

In the body building world, most body builders use BCAA's during their cutting phase only since BCAA's are more expensive and more calories are welcome in the bulking phase. BCAA's are great during cutting because they allow for some anabolic signals to be present even though the body is at a calorie deficit. Below is a picture that I found and added some additional pathways too. (I added the boxes for testosterone, Leucine, Myostatin, PEPCK etc)

 

This is significant because it means that some pathways (FOXO / Daf-16) could promoting longevity while the TOR pathway would be promoting muscle growth. Net effect you might sustain a musclar physique while having CR related repair mechanisms turned on in the medium / long run. This is pretty speculative based on my interpretation of some biological pathways and studies and I don't believe that it has been shown in practice.

Attached Files

•  Muscle Growth.png   738.38KB   7 downloads

[mealz13]

Thanks Lucid.  You know what, maybe I'll just jack up my BCAAs while going lowish on methionine; that way, at least I'll stop one of the culprits.  So I'll take BCAAs during a workout, have maybe say a scoop of whey and eat less protein in general.  Then once I reach middle age I may cut it out entirely, but for now I think cutting out one is enough, coupled with mTOR inhibitors like krillin suggested.

Edited by mealz13, 20 November 2014 - 12:58 AM.

[krillin]

I have been using whey protein for many years.

What does this mean now?

 

And what if all kinds of other foods also stimulate mTOR? Then cutting out whey wouldn't make any difference.

Is it really worth to get obsessed with such things and then not use whey anymore because of mTOR?

 

Other foods have less leucine so they stimulate mTOR less. How does one justify using whey protein from a longevity perspective when it is high in leucine, methionine, and cysteine? (Other than briefly cycling it as I mentioned above.) Lactoferrin is available separately so that's not an acceptable reason.

[RJ100]

I currently use reishi as my mTOR inhibitor.

 

 

I do too, but didn't realize I had to cycle it.

 

What is your daily dose and what is the frequency of your cycle?

 

Thanks.

[krillin]

 

I currently use reishi as my mTOR inhibitor.

 

 

I do too, but didn't realize I had to cycle it.

 

What is your daily dose and what is the frequency of your cycle?

 

Thanks.

 

 

A gram a day of Swanson's extract that has triterpenes and cracked spores like the Pharmanex ReishiMax extract. My cycle is 11 weeks on and then for 2 weeks I use the evil things: whey protein, leucine, growth hormone releasers (glycine, glutamine, ornithine, and some leftover agmatine that I'm not sure will work for this purpose), and RNA. 11/2 was arbitrarily  chosen to make a cycle quarterly. Rapamycin has been studied in 2 weeks on/2 weeks off cycles, but it's probably way more powerful than reishi.

[ikon2]

 

 

The take away here is that you should be able to take BCAA's instead of protien to get alot of the muscle stimulation.

 

 

 

Yes, but leucine is one of the BCAA's.  So how would taking BCAA's vs. whole protein benefit from an mTOR perspective?

 

I personally think a good approach (if one wants to build some muscle) is too use gelatin protein throughout the day (low in methionine, cysteine, etc) and then use BCAA's during workout and after, for that "magic window" niner mentioned.  Then one could go off the BCAA's for a while and use Reshi/Rapamycin.  Granted this is not optimal in terms of either mTOR or muscle building, but might be an acceptable compromise between the two.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by ikon2, 26 November 2014 - 03:28 PM.

[ikon2]

 

@ mealz

 

What exactly is wrong about leucine? I use whey protein daily, but only 30 grams in my morning shake to add some protein. Is there anything bad about this?

 

Leucine and whey protein are mTOR stimulants. Stimulating mTOR will make your stem cells resistant to mTOR and they'll stop responding. Inhibiting mTOR restores sensitivity and stem cells can then divide again when you cycle off of the mTOR inhibitor. Leucine and whey might be a good idea during this window. I currently use reishi as my mTOR inhibitor. (Reference 2. They underdosed the mice by an order of magnitude, so it's remarkable that it worked. They forgot the factor of 12.3 for human -> mice, and they wanted to use twice the human dose of 1 g, so they ended up using 2000 mg/70 kg = 28 mg/kg.)

 

Krillin, would a plausible avenue to accomplish both muscle building and inhibiting mTOR be to both consume moderate protein AND supplement with Reishi?  Or am I missing an obvious fact that the stimulation of mTOR IS a mediator of muscle growth?  Or rather, is mTOR stimulation simply a side effect of protein consumption, i.e. - are the two pathways different?  Conversely, if it is the same pathway, would taking a Resishi supplement inhibit muscle growth?  And finally, is it only the leucine that we are concerned with in terms of mTOR stimulation or is it other aminos as well?  Because in the event its only the leucine, then one could feasibly find another amino (or set of) for muscle building purposes, while hopefully keeping mTOR stimulation low.  Granted, leucine is king in muscledom, but others in high dose, combined with leucine can also be effective (can't find study at the moment).  And let's not even get into the igf-1 angle.  Ugh.

[mealz13]

 

 

 

The take away here is that you should be able to take BCAA's instead of protien to get alot of the muscle stimulation.

 

 

 

Yes, but leucine is one of the BCAA's.  So how would taking BCAA's vs. whole protein benefit from an mTOR perspective?

 

I personally think a good approach (if one wants to build some muscle) is too use gelatin protein throughout the day (low in methionine, cysteine, etc) and then use BCAA's during workout and after, for that "magic window" niner mentioned.  Then one could go off the BCAA's for a while and use Reshi/Rapamycin.  Granted this is not optimal in terms of either mTOR or muscle building, but might be an acceptable compromise between the two.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

That sounds like a reasonable compromise.  I had never heard of gelatin being used as a protein powder; after further investigation I found that it yields about 11 grams per tablespoon, so it definitely could be used.  I think using BCAAS for harder workouts for that extra "push" is a good idea, and then going off of them and using an mTOR inhibitor like you said is a good idea as well.  I personally have begun using pea protein because of low methionine, but gelatin is similar, so I am basically doing what you are suggesting and what krillin mentioned, a sort of on-off cycle with mTOR inhibitors.  It seems like the best compromise.  Yes, our muscles won't grow as strong as they would have without the inhibitors, but hopefully this cycling would make a dent in life extension.

 

 

 

@ mealz

 

What exactly is wrong about leucine? I use whey protein daily, but only 30 grams in my morning shake to add some protein. Is there anything bad about this?

 

Leucine and whey protein are mTOR stimulants. Stimulating mTOR will make your stem cells resistant to mTOR and they'll stop responding. Inhibiting mTOR restores sensitivity and stem cells can then divide again when you cycle off of the mTOR inhibitor. Leucine and whey might be a good idea during this window. I currently use reishi as my mTOR inhibitor. (Reference 2. They underdosed the mice by an order of magnitude, so it's remarkable that it worked. They forgot the factor of 12.3 for human -> mice, and they wanted to use twice the human dose of 1 g, so they ended up using 2000 mg/70 kg = 28 mg/kg.)

 

Krillin, would a plausible avenue to accomplish both muscle building and inhibiting mTOR be to both consume moderate protein AND supplement with Reishi?  Or am I missing an obvious fact that the stimulation of mTOR IS a mediator of muscle growth?  Or rather, is mTOR stimulation simply a side effect of protein consumption, i.e. - are the two pathways different?  Conversely, if it is the same pathway, would taking a Resishi supplement inhibit muscle growth?  And finally, is it only the leucine that we are concerned with in terms of mTOR stimulation or is it other aminos as well?  Because in the event its only the leucine, then one could feasibly find another amino (or set of) for muscle building purposes, while hopefully keeping mTOR stimulation low.  Granted, leucine is king in muscledom, but others in high dose, combined with leucine can also be effective (can't find study at the moment).  And let's not even get into the igf-1 angle.  Ugh.

 

Great question, I have no idea either.  Also, I know igf-1 is important, but what does it do again?  I've been focusing so much on mTOR that I forget there are other just as equally important pathways when it comes to life extension.  

[ikon2]

 

Great question, I have no idea either.  Also, I know igf-1 is important, but what does it do again?  I've been focusing so much on mTOR that I forget there are other just as equally important pathways when it comes to life extension.  

 

Krillin, would a plausible avenue to accomplish both muscle building and inhibiting mTOR be to both consume moderate protein AND supplement with Reishi?  Or am I missing an obvious fact that the stimulation of mTOR IS a mediator of muscle growth?  Or rather, is mTOR stimulation simply a side effect of protein consumption, i.e. - are the two pathways different?  Conversely, if it is the same pathway, would taking a Resishi supplement inhibit muscle growth?  And finally, is it only the leucine that we are concerned with in terms of mTOR stimulation or is it other aminos as well?  Because in the event its only the leucine, then one could feasibly find another amino (or set of) for muscle building purposes, while hopefully keeping mTOR stimulation low.  Granted, leucine is king in muscledom, but others in high dose, combined with leucine can also be effective (can't find study at the moment).  And let's not even get into the igf-1 angle.  Ugh.

 

 

 

Well, IGF-1 seems to be one of the largest double-edged swords out there.  Its important for muscle growth, but generally, when older, not goof for longevity as it directly influences growth of everything, including cancer/tumors, etc.  But also too little seems like it has its own problems.  Super confusing.

 

Krillin?

[mealz13]

So I have a new plan that I think gets the best of all worlds:

    From September to all of February, I am not going to let my protein consumption go beyond the RDA, and I am going to take every mTOR inhibitor I can find, and be super super aware of what I am putting into my body.  Then, from March until August, I am going to allow myself to have as much pea protein and BCAAs as I want, and stop the mTOR inhibitors, because after some research, I have found that mTOR does promote muscle growth, and is not simply a byproduct of protein consumption, and during this time, I want muscles.  This way, I'll have the body I want when I need it most (for tennis, but also bikini season, lol) and will also give myself a little psychological break.  

        I think it's the best of both worlds; I really am doing what Krillin so eloquently said, except my cycle is 6 months, not 11 weeks.  However, I still think in those 6 hyper aware months I will reap the life-extending benefits of mTOR inhibition.  I will continue this cycling until I hit middle age, where I think I will really need to cut back on protein all together, but I'm young, so I won't worry about that now.  Thoughts?

[tfor]

 

Other foods have less leucine so they stimulate mTOR less. How does one justify using whey protein from a longevity perspective when it is high in leucine, methionine, and cysteine? (Other than briefly cycling it as I mentioned above.) Lactoferrin is available separately so that's not an acceptable reason.

 

 

I always thought that whey is healthy because it contains globulines and all that stuff.

Can you tell me what's bad about cysteine and methionine?

I thought cysteine is good, too. NAC also contains cysteine.

 

And what powder alternatives are there to whey protein?

[RJ100]

Can you tell me what's bad about cysteine and methionine?

 

 

There are good threads around here, but basically - http://en.wikipedia....ine_restriction

 

I restrict it (and leucine) by not eating egg whites, brazil nuts, protein powder and I limit my meat intake. I still lift weights but it's just for the exercise, I'm not building much mass because of my diet.

[ikon2]

 

 

Other foods have less leucine so they stimulate mTOR less. How does one justify using whey protein from a longevity perspective when it is high in leucine, methionine, and cysteine? (Other than briefly cycling it as I mentioned above.) Lactoferrin is available separately so that's not an acceptable reason.

 

 

I always thought that whey is healthy because it contains globulines and all that stuff.

Can you tell me what's bad about cysteine and methionine?

I thought cysteine is good, too. NAC also contains cysteine.

 

And what powder alternatives are there to whey protein?

 

 

 

RJ100 gave you below a good starting point.  It's all very complicated but essentially Methionine, and Cysteine to a lesser degree have a direct, inverse relationship on longevity.  There have been numerous studies now that show Me and C restriction mimic calorie restriction/life extension, and there is some evidence that suggests that the benefits of CR are not that of overall caloric reduction but rather that the benefit is actually derived because of the overall lower Me and C intake as a result of restriction calories.

 

NAC does indeed contain Cysteine but the benefit of taking NAC is that it raises Glutathione levels.  Glutathione is the master anti-oxidant and generally higher level equate to a longer, healthier life.

 

And to answer you other question about protein powders, trhat's complicated.  Gelatin protein has almost zero Me and low C.  But it is also low in Leucine.  RJ100 mixes Leucine into the word mix with ME and C but it can be life-limiting for another reason and should not be construed in the same argument as ME and C.  Leucien potentiates IGF-1 release, which is implicated in cancer, etc.  But it is also implicated in longer life in some experiments so the jury is out IMO on Leucine.  Leucine also upregulates the mTOR pathway, which in turn limits life.  For instance, Rapamycin does the opposite and it has been shown to extend life.  But Leucine does trigger protein synthesis and muscle growth.

 

So I try to do the best of all worlds.in that I use Gelatin protein powder and go just above the RDA protein intake, and then after my workout I add in a scoop of Leucine.  Sure I don't get the max benefit whey would give for muscle growth but its a good compromise.

 

I also add in Glycine and Serine with all my shakes as they are shown to scavenge/clear exc ess ME ande C, respectively from the body.

[tfor]

Wow, this is really complicated. I had no idea that single amino acids can be such detrimental.

I remember years ago there was a huge Leucine craze in bodybuilding. I even thought about buying pure Leucine powder back then.

 

I wonder what do bodybuilders who are into longecity about that? How can you get huge amounts of protein if you have to avoid these amino acids?

Or would it be possible for whey protein manufacturers to bring out whey where ME and C have been filtered out? But even if you filter them out then

it would still be a problem cause if a protein lacks certain aminos which are necessary for muscle building then it's not very effective.

[sensei]

Very Interesting niner, thank you.  And thank you to everyone else who responded; a lot of valid points.  I think I will try concentrating my protein to around my workout and see what happens.  I guess it's mostly trial and error, and the reason I posted this question was out of laziness, but alas.  Anyways , I hope that I can get in great shape without extra protein...but we shall see.  Damn mTOR!

50 grams for a 50 kilo  sedentary adult is just about enough to maintain muscle mass (repair) 

 

If you weigh more than 50 kilos, and do any kind of strength training you will see adverse effects.

 

In order for me to maintain muscle mass -- not increase just maintain -- because I am extremely active and exercise with resistance and plyo at 75 kilos I need 170-180 grams of protein a day.

 

It is easy to get that from food -- four 8 oz chicken breasts will give you 172 grams right there.

 

I'd recommend .75 -1.0 grams per pound of body weight for you.

 

You can always supplement with glutamine as well.

Edited by sensei, 30 December 2014 - 01:19 AM.

[Maecenas]

sensei, last time I checked - 8 oz of chicken breasts contained 40 g of protein. And actually, it's not easy at all to consume 170 g of protein a day.

[sensei]

sensei, last time I checked - 8 oz of chicken breasts contained 40 g of protein. And actually, it's not easy at all to consume 170 g of protein a day.

 

6 grams per ounce of boneless skinless, some sources quote 7

 

this one quotes 8

 

http://www.fitday.co...n-breast.html#b

 

And yes it is I do it all the time.

 

It is not easy preparing the food, but it is quite easy to eat it.

 

Breakfast: 1 cup chickpeas plus 3 extra large eggs over a bed of salad greens with oil dressing - 58 grams protein

 

12 ounce ribeye steak for lunch - 75 grams protein

 

1 large chicken breast dinner - 48 grams 

 

Voila 170, and not a supplement used (although Myoplex 42 grams protein shake is good at only 300 calories)

 

And that includes no protein from probiotic yougurts, or cheese.

 

Or snacks like nuts

 

Substitute Tuna, pork, whatever in the same amounts and you end up with the same thing.

Edited by sensei, 30 December 2014 - 02:31 AM.

[factsmachine]

 

@ mealz

 

What exactly is wrong about leucine? I use whey protein daily, but only 30 grams in my morning shake to add some protein. Is there anything bad about this?

 

Leucine and whey protein are mTOR stimulants. Stimulating mTOR will make your stem cells resistant to mTOR and they'll stop responding. Inhibiting mTOR restores sensitivity and stem cells can then divide again when you cycle off of the mTOR inhibitor. Leucine and whey might be a good idea during this window. I currently use reishi as my mTOR inhibitor. (Reference 2. They underdosed the mice by an order of magnitude, so it's remarkable that it worked. They forgot the factor of 12.3 for human -> mice, and they wanted to use twice the human dose of 1 g, so they ended up using 2000 mg/70 kg = 28 mg/kg.)

 

Sci Signal. 2009 Nov 24;2(98):ra75. 

mTOR regulation and therapeutic rejuvenation of aging hematopoietic stem cells.

Chen C, Liu Y, Liu Y, Zheng P.

Abstract 

Age-related declines in hematopoietic stem cell (HSC) function may contribute to anemia, poor response to vaccination, and tumorigenesis. Here, we show that mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) activity is increased in HSCs from old mice compared to those from young mice. mTOR activation through conditional deletion of Tsc1 in the HSCs of young mice mimicked the phenotype of HSCs from aged mice in various ways. These included increased abundance of the messenger RNA encoding the CDK inhibitors p16(Ink4a), p19(Arf), and p21(Cip1); a relative decrease in lymphopoiesis; and impaired capacity to reconstitute the hematopoietic system. In old mice, rapamycin increased life span, restored the self-renewal and hematopoiesis of HSCs, and enabled effective vaccination against a lethal challenge with influenza virus. Together, our data implicate mTOR signaling in HSC aging and show the potential of mTOR inhibitors for restoring hematopoiesis in the elderly. 

PMID:     19934433

 

PLoS One. 2013;8(2):e57431.

Anti-tumor effects of Ganoderma lucidum (reishi) in inflammatory breast cancer in in vivo and in vitro models.

Suarez-Arroyo IJ, Rosario-Acevedo R, Aguilar-Perez A, Clemente PL, Cubano LA, Serrano J, Schneider RJ, Martínez-Montemayor MM.

Abstract 

The medicinal mushroom Ganoderma lucidum (Reishi) was tested as a potential therapeutic for Inflammatory Breast Cancer (IBC) using in vivo and in vitro IBC models. IBC is a lethal and aggressive form of breast cancer that manifests itself without a typical tumor mass. Studies show that IBC tissue biopsies overexpress E-cadherin and the eukaryotic initiation factor 4GI (eIF4GI), two proteins that are partially responsible for the unique pathological properties of this disease. IBC is treated with a multimodal approach that includes non-targeted systemic chemotherapy, surgery, and radiation. Because of its non-toxic and selective anti-cancer activity, medicinal mushroom extracts have received attention for their use in cancer therapy. Our previous studies demonstrate these selective anti-cancer effects of Reishi, where IBC cell viability and invasion, as well as the expression of key IBC molecules, including eIF4G is compromised. Thus, herein we define the mechanistic effects of Reishi focusing on the phosphoinositide-3-kinase (PI3K)/AKT/mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) pathway, a regulator of cell survival and growth. The present study demonstrates that Reishi treated IBC SUM-149 cells have reduced expression of mTOR downstream effectors at early treatment times, as we observe reduced eIF4G levels coupled with increased levels of eIF4E bound to 4E-BP, with consequential protein synthesis reduction. Severe combined immunodeficient mice injected with IBC cells treated with Reishi for 13 weeks show reduced tumor growth and weight by ∼50%, and Reishi treated tumors showed reduced expression of E-cadherin, mTOR, eIF4G, and p70S6K, and activity of extracellular regulated kinase (ERK1/2). Our results provide evidence that Reishi suppresses protein synthesis and tumor growth by affecting survival and proliferative signaling pathways that act on translation, suggesting that Reishi is a potential natural therapeutic for breast and other cancers. 

PMID:     23468988

Edit: Also, super high protein intake doesn't do much for anabolism, please dig for the studies. It's 3:10am where I'm at and sooo tired....

Hello, I know the mTOR causes muscle growth, it has something to do with cigarettes, and also has something to do with acne. 
I am on extremely high dose Testosterone, and my acne is gone, because I've hardly eaten, however my muscles have deflated as well. 
Could you explain these things into simpler terms, my friend?

Whey protein and leucine activate anabolism, and mtor signaling. What does this have to do with life expectancy?
I want to live large, have an enjoyable life. Longevity is hardly a concern but being that I'm only 19, what steps can I take to increase my life expectancy?
I take Vit D. Fish oil, lots of legal and illegal drugs such as benzos and opiates. Benzos are Rx, however, legality is not my concern.
What can I do to optimize my life, without compromising my life expectancy? I am also a smoker too... do exercise though. What other things can I replace cigarettes with? As in substances, not activities, I have a need for neurostimulation. 
Maybe I dont get out enough, but I'm in opiate withdrawl and its hard to find enjoyment in life. Let's change this.

 

Edited by factsmachine, 01 January 2015 - 11:10 AM.