60 replies to this topic

[ikon2]

 

 

I currently use reishi as my mTOR inhibitor.

 

 

I do too, but didn't realize I had to cycle it.

 

What is your daily dose and what is the frequency of your cycle?

 

Thanks.

 

 

A gram a day of Swanson's extract that has triterpenes and cracked spores like the Pharmanex ReishiMax extract. My cycle is 11 weeks on and then for 2 weeks I use the evil things: whey protein, leucine, growth hormone releasers (glycine, glutamine, ornithine, and some leftover agmatine that I'm not sure will work for this purpose), and RNA. 11/2 was arbitrarily  chosen to make a cycle quarterly. Rapamycin has been studied in 2 weeks on/2 weeks off cycles, but it's probably way more powerful than reishi.

 

 

Wow, glycine evil?  Please expand on what you interpret the net negative of Glycine is?  It may possibly have a mild uptick in GH (ultimately IFG-1) secretion but it is a powerful Methionine scavenger which is material to this thread.  Do you not feel that this far outweighs its marginal at best GH uptick causation?  I use Methionine as a constant staple in my diet.  Look at this study (albeit in mice) that shows a huge life-extension, both mean and maximum to high glycine supplementation:

 

http://www.fasebj.or...Abstracts/528.2

 

It also shows that there was in fact a decrease in IGF-1, which indicates a decrease in GH.

 

I use gelatin protein exclusively as its almost nil on Methionine and high in Glycine.  I even then add glycine and Serine (scavenges Cystine, Me's little brother for purposes of this thread).  I use a bit of extra Leucine and then add a good amount, usually a heaping teaspoon of an organic reishi powder.  I add then some sweet potato powder and that's my staple meal.  I eat almost no animal meat or other foods high in Me.  IGF seems to be a double edged sword and helpful in some areas whereas Me is almost all negative.  I'm super athletic and I feel this is the best way to proceed to maintain/increase muscle.

 

Also, what do you mean about RNA?  Are you saying you supplement occasionally with something like Uridine?  and you view it as an "evil"?  Again, please explain as I am curious if there's something I'm missing.

 

I'm certainly open to your theory but please advise as to why you feel the way you do.

Edited by ikon2, 02 January 2015 - 04:23 PM.

[ikon2]

 

Very Interesting niner, thank you.  And thank you to everyone else who responded; a lot of valid points.  I think I will try concentrating my protein to around my workout and see what happens.  I guess it's mostly trial and error, and the reason I posted this question was out of laziness, but alas.  Anyways , I hope that I can get in great shape without extra protein...but we shall see.  Damn mTOR!

50 grams for a 50 kilo  sedentary adult is just about enough to maintain muscle mass (repair) 

 

If you weigh more than 50 kilos, and do any kind of strength training you will see adverse effects.

 

In order for me to maintain muscle mass -- not increase just maintain -- because I am extremely active and exercise with resistance and plyo at 75 kilos I need 170-180 grams of protein a day.

 

It is easy to get that from food -- four 8 oz chicken breasts will give you 172 grams right there.

 

I'd recommend .75 -1.0 grams per pound of body weight for you.

 

You can always supplement with glutamine as well.

 

 

This approach is advocating eating a food that is high in Methionine, exactly what the OP said she's looking to avoid.

[ikon2]

A possible approach to accomplish your purposes here of building.maintaining muscle while keeping protein intake low might be to add citrulline to your diet.  The study also suggest the MOA is independent of insulin action or effect on IGF-1, which is nice for longevity purposes as well.  What I question here though is then what is the MOA?  Can anyone chime in with their thoughts?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24972455

 

Citrulline stimulates muscle protein synthesis in the post-absorptive state in healthy people fed a low-protein diet - A pilot study.

Abstract

BACKGROUND & AIMS:

Amino acid (AA) availability is critical to maintain protein homeostasis and reduced protein intake causes a decline in protein synthesis. Citrulline, an amino acid metabolite, has been reported to stimulate muscle protein synthesis in malnourished rats.

METHODS:

To determine whether citrulline stimulates muscle protein synthesis in healthy adults while on a low-protein diet, we studied 8 healthy participants twice in a cross-over study design. Following a 3-days of low-protein intake, either citrulline or a non-essential AA mixture (NEAA) was given orally as small boluses over the course of 8 h. [ring-13C6] phenylalanine and [15N] tyrosine were administered as tracers to assess protein metabolism. Fractional synthesis rates (FSR) of muscle proteins were measured using phenylalanine enrichment in muscle tissue fluid as the precursor pool.

RESULTS:

FSR of mixed muscle protein was higher during the administration of citrulline than during NEAA (NEAA: 0.049 ± 0.005; citrulline: 0.060 ± 0.006; P = 0.03), while muscle mitochondrial protein FSR and whole-body protein turnover were not different between the studies. Citrulline administration increased arginine and ornithine plasma concentrations without any effect on glucose, insulin, C-peptide, and IGF-1 levels. Citrulline administration did not promote mitochondria protein synthesis, transcripts, or citrate synthesis.

CONCLUSIONS:

Citrulline ingestion enhances mixed muscle protein synthesis in healthy participants on 3-day low-protein intake. This anabolic action of citrulline appears to be independent of insulin action and may offer potential clinical application in conditions involving low amino acid intake.

 

[drew_ab]

Citrulline is also well known for it's viagra-like effects.  Best source? Watermelon. 

[baptized_in_flames]

It's a common misconception that guys who are built, work out for the muscle. While this may be true, it's not true for all of us who lift. Take me for example...I lift for the exact same reason a drunk goes to the bar and gets tanked. I lift because it gets me high as a kite, and live for the feeling I get when I climb my tired self into the truck after an honest workout. I earn my good mood on a daily basis.

 

sensei, last time I checked - 8 oz of chicken breasts contained 40 g of protein. And actually, it's not easy at all to consume 170 g of protein a day.

 

It becomes far easier to consume more food if you have major muscle groups that are sore, such as chest, back, legs, glutes etc.

 

40-50g whey shakes and egg whites are very helpful for me, some guys like to eat loads of beef and chicken, but I prefer the quickness of egg whites and whey, and limit my chicken and beef meals to two a day. So,

 

Morning is 12 egg whites and rice w/ Ezekiel sodiumless bread

Snack is 50g protein with oatmeal

Lunch is chicken breast with sriracha and rice, followed with a baby spinach and water blended drink.(Gross but you need it)

Snack is 50g protein with oatmeal

-workout-

Post workout snack is another 50g protein with oatmeal

Dinner at home is chicken, steak, or fish with rice, and another spinach blended with water drink, or a salad if you're less of a health nut than I am.

 

There's your 300 grams of protein

 

edit- keep in mind that these meals are spaced out three hours apart, each.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by baptized_in_flames, 02 January 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[baptized_in_flames]

Citrulline is also well known for it's viagra-like effects.  Best source? Watermelon. 

 

Just order the bulk powder, it's easier. Not advertising any brands...but it's easy to find if you look on amazon or ebay.

 

It's far more useful for obtaining and keeping solid pumps in the gym than using it for a boner.

 

If you want a ridiculous erection, eat a couple handfuls of blueberries, then take a ginger root pill, then have a cup of coffee. You heard it here first.

[baptized_in_flames]

For tennis I would recommend emphasizing on the legs, glutes and calves moreso than pushups. Plus you'll look better in yoga pants!!

[ikon2]

It's a common misconception that guys who are built, work out for the muscle. While this may be true, it's not true for all of us who lift. Take me for example...I lift for the exact same reason a drunk goes to the bar and gets tanked. I lift because it gets me high as a kite, and live for the feeling I get when I climb my tired self into the truck after an honest workout. I earn my good mood on a daily basis.

 

sensei, last time I checked - 8 oz of chicken breasts contained 40 g of protein. And actually, it's not easy at all to consume 170 g of protein a day.

 

It becomes far easier to consume more food if you have major muscle groups that are sore, such as chest, back, legs, glutes etc.

 

40-50g whey shakes and egg whites are very helpful for me, some guys like to eat loads of beef and chicken, but I prefer the quickness of egg whites and whey, and limit my chicken and beef meals to two a day. So,

 

Morning is 12 egg whites and rice w/ Ezekiel sodiumless bread

Snack is 50g protein with oatmeal

Lunch is chicken breast with sriracha and rice, followed with a baby spinach and water blended drink.(Gross but you need it)

Snack is 50g protein with oatmeal

-workout-

Post workout snack is another 50g protein with oatmeal

Dinner at home is chicken, steak, or fish with rice, and another spinach blended with water drink, or a salad if you're less of a health nut than I am.

 

There's your 300 grams of protein

 

edit- keep in mind that these meals are spaced out three hours apart, each.

 

With all due respect, this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about, and advocating high Methionine protein intake, especially 12 egg whites as eggs are highest in protein.  This goes directly against the anti-aging protein intake and Methionine intake versus protein needed to have/build muscle the OP was talking about.  Probably a great way to shorten life span as a result.

[baptized_in_flames]

 

It's a common misconception that guys who are built, work out for the muscle. While this may be true, it's not true for all of us who lift. Take me for example...I lift for the exact same reason a drunk goes to the bar and gets tanked. I lift because it gets me high as a kite, and live for the feeling I get when I climb my tired self into the truck after an honest workout. I earn my good mood on a daily basis.

 

sensei, last time I checked - 8 oz of chicken breasts contained 40 g of protein. And actually, it's not easy at all to consume 170 g of protein a day.

 

It becomes far easier to consume more food if you have major muscle groups that are sore, such as chest, back, legs, glutes etc.

 

40-50g whey shakes and egg whites are very helpful for me, some guys like to eat loads of beef and chicken, but I prefer the quickness of egg whites and whey, and limit my chicken and beef meals to two a day. So,

 

Morning is 12 egg whites and rice w/ Ezekiel sodiumless bread

Snack is 50g protein with oatmeal

Lunch is chicken breast with sriracha and rice, followed with a baby spinach and water blended drink.(Gross but you need it)

Snack is 50g protein with oatmeal

-workout-

Post workout snack is another 50g protein with oatmeal

Dinner at home is chicken, steak, or fish with rice, and another spinach blended with water drink, or a salad if you're less of a health nut than I am.

 

There's your 300 grams of protein

 

edit- keep in mind that these meals are spaced out three hours apart, each.

 

With all due respect, this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about, and advocating high Methionine protein intake, especially 12 egg whites as eggs are highest in protein.  This goes directly against the anti-aging protein intake and Methionine intake versus protein needed to have/build muscle the OP was talking about.  Probably a great way to shorten life span as a result.
 

 

I was responding to the guy who was talking about it being difficult to consume a certain amount of protein, as he seemed confused on what to consume to make it easier to get the higher protein numbers. The OP made it clear she cared about Meth. I didn't think the guy I was responding to did.

 

Wow. Shortened lifespan? You seem pretty knowledgeable about this, so I'll throw it your way. Just curious, how much of a shortened lifespan would I expect with this diet?

[ikon2]

 

 

Wow. Shortened lifespan? You seem pretty knowledgeable about this, so I'll throw it your way. Just curious, how much of a shortened lifespan would I expect with this diet?

 

 

Well, I would guess it't not an exact, predictable number but if one looks at the research, Me seems to have a cumulative/net influence on overall mean and max lifespans.  It also seems the sweet spot for Me restriction is about 40-60% of normal.  I think one would safely assume that jacking up Me rich food intake would have the opposite effect.  There are so many variables that would have to go into the calculation to arriave at a reasonable answer that I'm not about to do it at the moment but these variables are also mentioned below in this quote from an article, along with the benefits of Glycine supplementation, which I noted in an earlier post in this thread.

 

Substantial evidence indicates that as much as half of the life-extension benefits of CRAN (Calorie Restriction with Adequate Nutrition) are due to restriction of the single amino acid methionine. In a study of rats given 20% the dietary methionine of control rats, mean lifespan increased 42% and maximum lifespan increased 44% [THE FASEB JOURNAL;Richie,JP; 8(15):1302-1307 (1994)]. Blood glutathionelevels were 81% higher in the methionine-restricted rats at maturity, and 164% higher in old age. In other studies, methionine-restricted rats showed greater insulin sensitivity and reduced fat deposition [AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSIOLOGY; Hasek,BE; 299:R728-R739 (2010) and AGING CELL; Malloy,VL; 5(4):305-314 (2006)].

An experiment on mice given 35% the methionine of controls showed only a 7% increase in median life span (so it would seem that the more significant the Me restriction is, the benefit goes up exponentially) [JOURNALS OF GERONTOLOGY; Sun,L; 64(7):711-722 (2009)]. Another mouse study showed lowered serum insulin, IGF−1, glucose, and thyroid hormone for methionine at one-third the normal intake. There was significant mouse mortality for methionine less than one-third normal intake (so if you are a mouse at least, you wouldn't want to reduce your Me intake beyond 70%), but with one-third intake of methionine maximum lifespan was significantly increased [AGING CELL; Miller,RA; 4(3):119-125 (2005)]. Rats generally show greater longevity benefits from CRAN than mice.

Mitochondrial free radical generation is believed by many biogerontologists to be a significant contributor to aging damage. Rats given 20% the dietary methionine of control rats show significantly decreased free radical generation from complex I and complex III of liver mitochondria as well as from complex I of heart mitochondria — associated with reduced oxidative damage to mitochondrial DNA and protein [THE FASEB JOURNAL;Sanz,A; 20(8):1064-1073 (2006)]. These results are comparable to the reduced mitochondrial free radical generation seen in CRAN rats [ENDOCRINOLOGY; Gredilla,R; 146(9):3713-3717 (2005)]. Rats given 60% rather than 20% of the methionine of control rats showed nearly the same amount of reduced mitochondrial free radical generation and damage [BIOCHEMICA ET BIOPHYSICA ACTA; Lopez-Torres,M; 1780(11):1337-1347 (2008)]. Body weight was not reduced with 60% dietary methionine, leading to the conclusion that such reduction would not result in reduced growth in children [REJUVENATION RESEARCH; Caro,P; 12(6):421-434 (2009)]. It was concluded that methionine restriction is the sole reason for reduced mitochondrial free radical generation and damage associated with CRAN [Ibid.] and protein restriction [BIOGERONTOLOGY; Caro,P; 9(3):183-196 (2008)].

Evidence for the suggestion that methionine oxidation plays a significant role in lifespan can be found in the considerable lifespan extension benefits seen in transgenic fruit flies that overexpress a gene for repairing oxidized methionine in protein [PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES (USA); Ruan,H; 99(5):2748 (2002)]. The sulfur-containing amino acids methionine and cyteine are more easily oxidized in proteins than other amino acids [JOURNAL OF PHYSIOLOGY)], which is apparently related to the reduced free radical generation in mitochondria seen in methionine restriction. Both the fruit fly experiment and the methionine restriction experiments indicate a significant impact on lifespan from methionine oxidation.

It has been suggested that glycine supplementation has the same effect as methionine restriction. An experiment with glycine supplementation in rats showed a 30% extension in maximum lifespan [FASEB JOURNAL; Brind,J; 25:528.2 (2011)]. Additionally, three grams of glycine daily has been shown to improve sleep quality in young (average age 31) female Japanese adults [SLEEP AND BIOLOGICAL RHYTHM; Inagawa,K; 4:75-77 (2006)]

 

 

The article with some links to good Me restriction studies can be found therein, along with some good tables listing what foods have what Me content.

 

http://www.benbest.c...ories/Meth.html

[baptized_in_flames]

I guess it's difficult for me to buy all that stuff for various reasons, but I'll start with the most obvious, in the things you cited, there's no human studies, only rats.

 

But moving further, I suppose I am inclined to be content with dying around age 75 or 80, considering the size of my body (6ft4, 280 lbs) and amount of physical activity I do per day, (training heart rate zone about 2 hours a day) I've pretty much already accepted the fact that not only will I probably die around 75 or 80 if I'm lucky, hell, I'll be lucky to not have a pig valve in my heart by then. But there again, out of all the people I've come into contact with over the age of 80-85, the majority of them seem afflicted in ways that I would rather not experience, personally.

 

 

[RonBurgandy]

If you're trying to avoid methionine...You want to stay away from dairy and other animal proteins. Ideally, your sources should be plant based. Pea protein isolate is a great source of protein if you're going this approach. Foods like almonds, oatmeal, rice, etc.. These can all provide you adequate protein towards your macro goal. One could easily design and diet with around 1g protein/lb body weight, while still keeping the methionine content to a minimum. 

[ikon2]

I guess it's difficult for me to buy all that stuff for various reasons, but I'll start with the most obvious, in the things you cited, there's no human studies, only rats.

 

But moving further, I suppose I am inclined to be content with dying around age 75 or 80, considering the size of my body (6ft4, 280 lbs) and amount of physical activity I do per day, (training heart rate zone about 2 hours a day) I've pretty much already accepted the fact that not only will I probably die around 75 or 80 if I'm lucky, hell, I'll be lucky to not have a pig valve in my heart by then. But there again, out of all the people I've come into contact with over the age of 80-85, the majority of them seem afflicted in ways that I would rather not experience, personally.

 

"Difficult top buy"?  There is a TON of data there and that's only the tip of the iceberg.  There are a significant number of studies done, and in higher life forms as well.  Moreover, the pathways referred to in these studies generally translate to humans as well. If you are waiting for a large human study to be conducted over the course of 100+ years, you might be waiting a long time.  I guess I'm just confused as you asked for info and I gave you an overwhelming amount based on well done, scientific studies and you reply that you "don't buy all that stuff for various reasons".  Beside your pointing out many studies were done in rats, what is not to "buy"?  Sulfuric amino acids oxidizing in mitochondria is a generally a chemical process, and not specific to rodents or absent in humans.  That is the compelling underlying point of the benefits of restricting Methionine and Cystine.

 

And if you've "pretty much accepted that you will die around 75 or 80" then why are you asking about how to extend life through something like Methionine restriction?

 

Moreover, the "people you've come in contact with over the age of 80-85" were not fortunate enough to have the science we do now.  At the risk of stating the obvious, the very point of this forum is to investigate and share information relative to life-extension and to not end up like those people at that age.  They probably used to think rubbing butter on wounds was helpful as well but that has zero to do it the price of tea in China.  Not sure how your comment is relevant.  Do you have any actual information that supports your disagreement with what the mounting evidence to the benefits of Me restriction are?  Because I could go all day with studies that show the benefits.

 

How about this relative to human prostate cancer cell proliferation arrest through Me restriction?

 

Molecular mechanisms of cell cycle block by methionine restriction in human prostate cancer cells.

Abstract

Previous studies have shown that dietary or pharmacological methionine restriction inhibits growth of human prostate cancer cells in vitro or as xenografts in mice. We undertook the present studies to clarify the molecular mechanisms by which methionine restriction inhibits prostate cancer cell growth. We found that PC-3 and DU 145 cells stopped proliferating within six days in growth medium containing homocysteine in place of methionine. In contrast, proliferation of LNCaP cells was only partially inhibited by the absence of methionine. Using flow cytometry, we found that methionine restriction caused PC-3 cells to arrest in all phases of the cell cycle, but predominantly in the G2/M phase, whereas LNCaP cells accumulated exclusively in the G1 phase. Methionine restriction led to accumulation of the cyclin-dependent kinase inhibitors p21 and p27, as determined by Western blot analysis, and inhibited the enzymatic activities of the cyclin-dependent kinases CDK2 and cdc2, as determined by an in vitro kinase assay: However, methionine restriction had little or no effect on CDK2 or cdc2 protein levels. Methionine restriction also induced PC-3 cells to undergo apoptosis, as indicated by the appearance of a typical nucleosomal ladder on gel electrophoresis of genomic DNA. We conclude that methionine restriction has potential as a novel treatment strategy for prostate cancer.

 

Or how about this?  The glutathione related redox pathways in the rat are similar to that in humans.

 

Methionine restriction affects oxidative stress and glutathione-related redox pathways in the rat.

Abstract

Lifelong dietary methionine restriction (MR) is associated with increased longevity and decreased incidence of age-related disorders and diseases in rats and mice. A reduction in the levels of oxidative stress may be a contributing mechanistic factor for the beneficial effects of MR. To examine this, we determined the effects of an 80% dietary restriction of Met on different biomarkers of oxidative stress and antioxidant pathways in blood, liver, kidney and brain in the rat. Male F-344 rats were fed control (0.86% methionine) or MR (0.17% methionine) diets for up to six months. Blood and tissues were analyzed for glutathione (GSH) concentrations, related enzyme activities and biomarkers of oxidative stress. MR was associated with reductions in oxidative stress biomarkers including plasma 8-hydoxydeoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) and 8-isoprostane and erythrocyte protein-bound glutathione after one month with levels remaining low for at least six months (P < 0.05). Levels of free GSH in blood were increased after 1-6 months of MR feeding whereas liver GSH levels were reduced over this time (P < 0.05). In MR rats, GSH peroxidase activity was decreased in liver and increased in kidney compared with controls. No changes in the activities of GSH reductase in liver and kidney and superoxide dismutase in liver were observed as a result of MR feeding. Altogether, these findings indicate that oxidative stress is reduced by MR feeding in rats, but this effect cannot be explained by changes in the activity of antioxidant enzymes.

 

Or how can you argue with this???  Mitochondrial ROS are responsible for aging in humans in the same manner as they are in rats and Me restriction clearly arrests this.

 

Mitochondrial oxidative stress, aging and caloric restriction: The protein and methionine connection

• Abstract

Caloric restriction (CR) decreases aging rate and mitochondrial ROS (MitROS) production and oxidative stress in rat postmitotic tissues. Low levels of these parameters are also typical traits of long-lived mammals and birds. However, it is not known what dietary components are responsible for these changes during CR. It was recently observed that 40% protein restriction without strong CR also decreases MitROS generation and oxidative stress. This is interesting because protein restriction also increases maximum longevity (although to a lower extent than CR) and is a much more practicable intervention for humans than CR. Moreover, it was recently found that 80% methionine restriction substituting it for l-glutamate in the diet also decreases MitROS generation in rat liver. Thus, methionine restriction seems to be responsible for the decrease in ROS production observed in caloric restriction. This is interesting because it is known that exactly that procedure of methionine restriction also increases maximum longevity. Moreover, recent data show that methionine levels in tissue proteins negatively correlate with maximum longevity in mammals and birds. All these suggest that lowering of methionine levels is involved in the control of mitochondrial oxidative stress and vertebrate longevity by at least two different mechanisms: decreasing the sensitivity of proteins to oxidative damage, and lowering of the rate of ROS generation at mitochondria.

 

The point is, all of these studies suggest, even from the researchers' points of view the value as it would likely translate to humans.  And the pathways they find the benefits of Me restriction are known pathways that translate well over to humans.

 

Please offer some relevant information to this thread in opposition, if any, rather than just a blanket disagreement.

[TheFountain]

I'd rather spend more time focusing on fight mechanics than weight lifting mechanics. 

 

My muscle memory will commit my tendon strength and muscle fibers toward punching/kicking/grappling than toward a motion that is less applicable in the real world, thus not confusing my muscle memory. 

 

I think this is why there are so many smaller guys dominant in MMA.

 

Plus, fight mechanics builds muscles naturally without overdoing it to useless proportions. 

[misterE]

I believe that when you exercise, you become highly catabolic and increase catabolic-hormones like cortisol, glucagon, GH and adrenaline. These hormones cause the breakdown of body-fat and muscle. When you eat your next meal (high carb/moderate protein) the insulin you produce from the meal, drives all of the energy and protein into your muscles for growth and repair. Anabolic-hormones like testosterone, insulin and IGF-1, along with mTOR all build and maintain the structure of the body and muscles.

 

Diabetics, who are known for their muscle-wasting and for undergoing excessive lipolysis, have chronically high levels of cortisol, glucagon, GH and other catabolic hormones, and they have very low levels of testosterone, IGF-1, mTOR and are resistant to the effects of insulin. That is why exercising helps prevent diabetes, because exercise increases your sensitivity to insulin and when you are sensitive to insulin, your body can assimilate the nutrients and energy from your food to better rejuvenate you.

[misterE]

The most anabolic foods are:

 

1. Milk-protein. Whey and casein stimulate the release of incretins (GIP and GLP-1) which stimulates insulin secretion.

2. Potatoes.

3. Pinto-beans. The combination of protein and starch is very insulinogenic.

4. Flour.

5. Sugar.

6. Egg-whites. The high levels of essential amino-acids stimulates incretin secretion, especially if combined with starch and sugar.

7. Saturated-fats. Saturated free-fatty-acids released during lipolysis potentiate insulin-secretion once glucose is eaten.

 

Staying in a positive calorie-surplus will also stimulate anabolic-hormones and mTOR.

Edited by misterE, 09 January 2015 - 12:40 AM.

[misterE]

Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Apr;49(4):608-11. Hormonal response to overfeeding. Forbes GB, Brown MR, Welle SL.

 

 

J Clin Invest. 1997 Jul 15;100(2):398-403. The insulinotropic potency of fatty acids is influenced profoundly by their chain length and degree of saturation. Stein DT, Stevenson BE, Chester MW.

 

Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1264-76. An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. Holt SH, Miller JC, Petocz P.

 

J Appl Physiol (1985). 1992 May;72(5):1854-9. Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise. Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL.

 

Diabetologia. 2014 Sep;57(9):1807-11. Incretin, insulinotropic and glucose-lowering effects of whey protein pre-load in type 2 diabetes: a randomised clinical trial. Jakubowicz D, Froy O, Ahrén B.

 

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2009 Sep;63(9):1076-83. Differential effects of casein versus whey on fasting plasma levels of insulin, IGF-1 and IGF-1/IGFBP-3: results from a randomized 7-day supplementation study in prepubertal boys. Hoppe C, Mølgaard C, Dalum C.

Edited by misterE, 11 January 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[Brett Black]

It seems there may be a recurring pattern in the (very limited) research into the connection between dietary protein intake and longevity: plant-derived protein doesn't seem to have the negative impacts that animal-derived protein does. Here's one widely reported study in agreement with the pattern:
http://www.nih.gov/r...2014protein.htm

[mealz13]

      Thanks for everyone putting their 2 cents into this thread; to me, it still seems like there are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of different opinions on how to approach this.  For now, I am revising what I said before; I am going to try eliminating animal protein, dairy, and eggs, and when I feel like I need more muscle mass, jack up on the pea protein.  I'm staying away from BCAAs, whey, and other bad stuff.  And I don't even know if I'm going to use more protein powder for 6 months; maybe just 3.  And the rest of the year, eat low protein/low cal/moderate fat/moderate carbs and take mTOR inhibitors.  Sorry for this, just had to get my thoughts down.  And sadly, they will probably change as more research comes out.  But for now, I'm playing it safe.

[Brett Black]

Thanks for everyone putting their 2 cents into this thread; to me, it still seems like there are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of different opinions on how to approach this.  For now, I am revising what I said before; I am going to try eliminating animal protein, dairy, and eggs, and when I feel like I need more muscle mass, jack up on the pea protein.  I'm staying away from BCAAs, whey, and other bad stuff.  And I don't even know if I'm going to use more protein powder for 6 months; maybe just 3.  And the rest of the year, eat low protein/low cal/moderate fat/moderate carbs and take mTOR inhibitors.  Sorry for this, just had to get my thoughts down.  And sadly, they will probably change as more research comes out.  But for now, I'm playing it safe.

Ideally I think you should try to isolate and quantify the effectiveness (or lack of effectiveness) of any dietary scheme you institute. Keep a log of regular standardized measurements (e.g. circumference of specific body parts, body weight, impedance-based body composition testing, photographic records, strength testing etc.) Also try to quantify and account for measurement inaccuracy (something as seemingly simple as waist circumference measurements can be surprisingly difficult to repeat with high accuracy, time of day can affects measures etc etc.) Unless the changes happen rather rapidly and/or dramatically it may be difficult to notice them othwerwise.

[Brett Black]

Of course you wouldn't necessarily have to do all the measurements I suggested. Something as simple as a series of photos of your body from different angles could have value.

[sensei]

      Thanks for everyone putting their 2 cents into this thread; to me, it still seems like there are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of different opinions on how to approach this.  For now, I am revising what I said before; I am going to try eliminating animal protein, dairy, and eggs, and when I feel like I need more muscle mass, jack up on the pea protein.  I'm staying away from BCAAs, whey, and other bad stuff.  And I don't even know if I'm going to use more protein powder for 6 months; maybe just 3.  And the rest of the year, eat low protein/low cal/moderate fat/moderate carbs and take mTOR inhibitors.  Sorry for this, just had to get my thoughts down.  And sadly, they will probably change as more research comes out.  But for now, I'm playing it safe.

 

If you are going to restrict methionine -- you need to supplement taurine and l-carnitine -- Methionine is a direct precursor, hence it being an ESSENTIAL AMINO ACID.

 

Glycine antagonizes Methionine -- perhaps you may want to look at that.

 

also:

 

'Loss of methionine has been linked to senile greying of hair. Its lack leads to a buildup of hydrogen peroxide in hair follicles, a reduction in tyrosinase effectiveness and a gradual loss of hair color."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19237503

 

Edited by sensei, 12 January 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[misterE]

    and take mTOR inhibitors.

This could be problematic. mTOR is needed for cell regeneration. Diabetics; on one end of a spectrum, have very low levels of mTOR while cancer-victims; on the other end of the spectrum, have very high levels. There must be a balance. Plant-proteins don't stimulate mTOR as much as animal-proteins, but milk-protein is actually considered a mTOR signaling-protein [1]. Which makes sense, because milk is anabolic. The way in which it promotes anabolic effects in the body is by increasing insulin secretion, which stimulates the growth of every tissue in the body and prevents the death of those tissues as well. To much growth (and less apoptosis) and you could develop cancer, too little growth (and more apoptosis) then you develop diabetes and waste away.

 

 

 

 

[1] Nutr J. 2013 Jul 25;12:103. Milk is not just food but most likely a genetic transfection system activating mTORC1 signaling for postnatal growth. Melnik BC, John SM, Schmitz G.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ikon2]

The most anabolic foods are:

 

1. Milk-protein. Whey and casein stimulate the release of incretins (GIP and GLP-1) which stimulates insulin secretion.

2. Potatoes.

3. Pinto-beans. The combination of protein and starch is very insulinogenic.

4. Flour.

5. Sugar.

6. Egg-whites. The high levels of essential amino-acids stimulates incretin secretion, especially if combined with starch and sugar.

7. Saturated-fats. Saturated free-fatty-acids released during lipolysis potentiate insulin-secretion once glucose is eaten.

 

Staying in a positive calorie-surplus will also stimulate anabolic-hormones and mTOR.

 

misterE, you know I like your posts and info, and you seem to very a very smart contributor but I just want to point out that egg whites are extremely high in methionine.  I know you weren't saying that they weren't and rather just pointing out that they are anabolic.  I'm just stating this for purposes of this thread as the OP asked about this specifically.  I don't want anyone reading the thread to get confused is all.

[TheFountain]

 

The most anabolic foods are:

 

1. Milk-protein. Whey and casein stimulate the release of incretins (GIP and GLP-1) which stimulates insulin secretion.

2. Potatoes.

3. Pinto-beans. The combination of protein and starch is very insulinogenic.

4. Flour.

5. Sugar.

6. Egg-whites. The high levels of essential amino-acids stimulates incretin secretion, especially if combined with starch and sugar.

7. Saturated-fats. Saturated free-fatty-acids released during lipolysis potentiate insulin-secretion once glucose is eaten.

 

Staying in a positive calorie-surplus will also stimulate anabolic-hormones and mTOR.

 

misterE, you know I like your posts and info, and you seem to very a very smart contributor but I just want to point out that egg whites are extremely high in methionine.  I know you weren't saying that they weren't and rather just pointing out that they are anabolic.  I'm just stating this for purposes of this thread as the OP asked about this specifically.  I don't want anyone reading the thread to get confused is all.

 

Also egg whites contribute to biotin deficiency because they are high in Avidin which depletes the body of biotin. Which is why biotin exists in whole eggs (the yolk part) via natures pure wisdom!

[TheFountain]

I believe that when you exercise, you become highly catabolic and increase catabolic-hormones like cortisol, glucagon, GH and adrenaline. These hormones cause the breakdown of body-fat and muscle. When you eat your next meal (high carb/moderate protein) the insulin you produce from the meal, drives all of the energy and protein into your muscles for growth and repair. Anabolic-hormones like testosterone, insulin and IGF-1, along with mTOR all build and maintain the structure of the body and muscles.

 

Diabetics, who are known for their muscle-wasting and for undergoing excessive lipolysis, have chronically high levels of cortisol, glucagon, GH and other catabolic hormones, and they have very low levels of testosterone, IGF-1, mTOR and are resistant to the effects of insulin. That is why exercising helps prevent diabetes, because exercise increases your sensitivity to insulin and when you are sensitive to insulin, your body can assimilate the nutrients and energy from your food to better rejuvenate you.

 

Only excessive steady state cardio makes you swing into catabolic pussy mode. 

[proileri]

There's one important thing to remember here: increasing strength is not dependent on increasing muscle mass.

 

Muscle strength has a lot to do with neural development: improving the nerve-muscle connection and the muscle fiber recruitment. This develops independently when training with high resistance / low (1-4) reps per set. Muscle mass development happens better at higher rep ranges (6-12). For example, see weight lifters in low weight categories, or athletes in sports where good strength/mass-ratio is beneficial (martial arts, track & field etc. - or tennis players, in this case). Some minor muscle mass increase may happen from strength-oriented training, and larger muscle mass can help to gain higher strength level and vice versa, but the two don't improve hand in hand. 

 

So yes, working out at a gym will improve your strength levels, especially if you focus on high weight / low reps training, even when consuming no extra protein. Small amount of extra protein has been shown to be beneficial for optimal recovery etc., especially if you exercise a lot, but it's not absolutely necessary.    

Edited by proileri, 23 February 2015 - 05:57 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

Low levels of protein extend lifespan more than calorie restriction alone
" The Ratio of Macronutrients, Not Caloric Intake, Dictates Cardiometabolic Health, Aging, and Longevity in Ad Libitum-Fed Mice "
Summary
The fundamental questions of what represents a macronutritionally balanced diet and how this maintains health and longevity remain unanswered. Here, the Geometric Framework, a state-space nutritional modeling method, was used to measure interactive effects of dietary energy, protein, fat, and carbohydrate on food intake, cardiometabolic phenotype, and longevity in mice fed one of 25 diets ad libitum. Food intake was regulated primarily by protein and carbohydrate content. Longevity and health were optimized when protein was replaced with carbohydrate to limit compensatory feeding for protein and suppress protein intake. These consequences are associated with hepatic mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) activation and mitochondrial function and, in turn, related to circulating branched-chain amino acids and glucose. Calorie restriction achieved by high-protein diets or dietary dilution had no beneficial effects on lifespan. The results suggest that longevity can be extended in ad libitum-fed animals by manipulating the ratio of macronutrients to inhibit mTOR activation.
http://www.sciencedi...550413114000655

[son of shen nong]

I think muscles are vastly overrated as a sign of great health.  Excessive protein intake can also tax the liver & kidneys.

If that's the look you want, by all means go for it, but exercise, like pretty much everything else, needs to be done in the right amount

to be an aid to health & longevity.

Externals are nice, but how you feel inside is a better gauge for how healthy you are.

Just my 2 cents.

[nowayout]

It's a common misconception that guys who are built, work out for the muscle.

 

I always thought guys who are built work out for the sex.   I know I do, and so does every other gay man I know.