60 replies to this topic

[KJx]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone has thoughts about healing/stopping Alzheimer's with nootropics. Aunt of my fiance has got Alzheimer's and I'm wondering if I can do anything to help. 

I am thinking to try this nootropics stack:
Noopept 

Choline
Sunifiram
Unifiram

Citicoline

 

Is this a good stack for Alzheimer's ? Thank you!

[resveratrol_guy]

Daniel Cooper's father is in a similar situation. Relevant threads are here, here, and here. For the sake of consolidation, I suggest sharing your case over there. You may wish to follow my dementia stem cell therapy microtrial here.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 19 November 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[Lobotomy]

That's not treating the problem, and if you're using Sunifiram, you'll be accelerating the damage.

[KJx]

Could you elaborate on that, please? How would you treat the problem? How would Sunifiram accelerate the damage?

[Lobotomy]

Sunifiram is an EXTREMELY dirty nootropic and should be used sparingly.  If you want to treat alzheimers, do some research on neurogenic compounds such as NSI-189 and Dihexa.

 

Racetams and choline won't do anything but possibly restore some functionality on a strictly temporary basis.

Edited by Lobotomy, 21 November 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[KJx]

Interesting! Could you shortly describe why would sunifiram be considered a "dirty" nootropic? Should I use unifiram alone? I read that their effects differ mostly in intensity? Sunifiram is more "rushful"? Is the mechanism of action dangerous somehow?

Thank you for mentioning the other two compounds, I will read into them! 

As for racetams and choline-based drugs being only temporary helpers, that's also good, because the person I want to help is very old-fashioned and refuses to take any medicine (although at the same time I think she's really scared of her condition) so I'm hoping to "smuggle" these nootropics so she immediatelly feels better so she would trust me enough to take even more, stronger drugs for Alzheimer's. Another problem is that I live in a second-world country and medicine is very low-level here. I will try to find out what she's prescribed right now and share it here. 

[TiredAt45]

Why would you consider using chemicals with very little scientific research behind them?  Something could very well make the patient "feel better" temporarily yet be even more damaging in the long run.  That is why, in the absence of a sound basis for acting, inaction is preferable.

 

How about looking at possible root causes?  How much poison has your potential aunt been subjected to?  Are the teeth in her mouth filled with several grams of metallic death, ie., mercury?  Other possible sources of lead, arsenic, cadmium, etc.?

 

[Lobotomy]

Differing from of most nootropics, Sunifiram has a host of reported potential side effects that could be permanent. Excitotoxicity is potentially a factor, which would assist neurodegeneration. It seems to have problems synergizing with other nootropics as well, possibly causing the side effects people have reported by (and this is my assumption, don't take this as fact) overworking the cholinergic and glutamatergic AMPA receptors.

 

The problem with nootropics for Alzheimer's, however, is the fact that they ONLY just help restore someone's functionality for as long as the drug is taken, save for possibly Coluracetam, which seems to have permanent positive effects on High Affinity Choline Uptake, but once again, this is treating the symptom, and not the disease, so to speak. Some Racetams have neuroprotective effects, but Piracetam in excess can contribute to oxidative stress, which won't help things.

 

CoQ10, Fish Oil, NSI-189, Trans-Resveratrol, Ginkgo Biloba extract

[KJx]

Okay, I did some more research and came up with a new list. I am also planning on using these substances for one Alzheimer's and one ALS patient... too bad my knowledge is so limited in this area. But the 'patients' don't have much alternative here... Could someone else with more experience in medicine stuff please comment? I could really appreciate a second opinion.
The current list:

J147 

NSI-189 

Fisetin
Unifiram maybe

PRL-8-53 

Phenylpiracetam (Could be harmful to the ALS patient because it acts as a mild stimulant?)

Noopept (maybe, could be harmful for ALS patient because it enhances the signals and that could be harmful to the already excited neurons?)

IDRA-21 (I ruled this out, probably won't include it because it causes even more damage to stroke patients and seeing as how glutamate does most of the damage for both stroke and ALS patients, this should probably be avoided I guess? Would it be harmless or even helpful at all if glutamate was lowered in other means?)

Aniracetam

Coluracetam 

Centrophenoxine 

Sulbutiamine (um, for mood enhancements, I guess..?)

Methylene Blue

Also thinking to add some curcumin or other potent turmeric-based compounds

 

Any input is very welcome!

[KJx]

Forgot to mention Citicoline. I think it's highly important as well. 

[jroseland]

Sunifiram, Unifiram, Noopept? Wow... These are very unproven smart drugs. For younger people with decades of resilience ahead them they are interesting to experiment with but I wouldn't give them to someone already suffering from cognitive decline.

 

Really clear case showing that Alpha GPC works wonders for Alzheimer's. To quote a 6 month double blind study of 261 human subjects afflicted with mild to moderate Alzheimer's:

“In this multicenter, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial, patients affected by mild to moderate dementia of the Alzheimer type were treated... Statistically significant differences were observed between treatments after 90 and 180 days...” on a variety of scales that are used to measure severity of cognitive decline as a result of supplementing 1200 milligrams (split into three doses daily) for 6 months.

 

 

[Fenix_]

Prescription memantine would be a good start.

[ceridwen]

I don't think anything will stop it. Excitoxicity is agonising. I'm in great pain. It feels like my head is on fire.

[KJx]

I don't think anything will stop it. Excitoxicity is agonising. I'm in great pain. It feels like my head is on fire.

 

Could you share your experience wtih what you had already tried? There seem to be so many experimental things on teamtlr, I think I'd try all of those indicated for Alzheimer's from them, if I had the disease. Have you tried many of the nootropics? Citicoline, methylene blue?

[ceridwen]

I have indeed. Looking at NAD at present. That seems to be the only thing that helps at all.

http://brain.oxfordj....aw002.full.pdf

That's cos none of the others worked

[ceridwen]

I also suffer from anxiety. Citicholine gave me a panic attack.

[ceridwen]

Undecided as to whetever I should try Huperzine A I've read some really bad things about it but hope to try ketone mono esters when I can get some

[ceridwen]

PRL-8-53 improved my mood.  I've tried a lot of things most didn't work

[KJx]

Thank you for sharing your experiences, please write more if you can.

 

Have you considered a ketogenic diet? I read there were quite some success for some people. Alternatively, I suppose a raw diet could prove fruitful (pun intended).

 

As for other substances, have you considered J147 ?

 

This substance looks to me particularily interesting, seeing as it is gliogenic. Could be worth a shot: http://teamtlr.com/a...e-99-n-pea.html

Edited by KJx, 26 February 2015 - 04:24 AM.

[Arisia]

I don't have Alzheimer's, but I was diagnosed with Mild Neurocognitive Disorder. If I'd have scored 1 point less on the SLUMS test I'd have been diagnosed with dementia.

 

What was helping me quite a bit, initially, was either LEF Cognitex (the one containing aswagandha), or 500mg of CDP Choline. This helped for the first two months, then it's effectiveness started tapering off.

 

Currently I'm taking the following:

 

5mg of Aricept (I'd take more but the side-effects are too much for me)

250 mg of CDP Choline

1200 mg ALCAR

500 mg Benfotiamine

480 mg R-Lipoic Acid

1000/500 mg EPA/DHA (I'm just using up what I had on hand, you really want DHA to be higher than EPA)

250 mg Uridine Monohydrate taken sublingually (if I just swallow the capsule it will negatively affect my cognition)

125 mg Ashwagandha extract (LEF Optimized Ashwagandha)

400 mg Curcumin (LEF Bio-Curcumin)

1g Lion's Mane mycelium (Host Defense)

B complex vitamin with methyl-B12 and methyl folate.

 

I've also reduced my sugar intake, and fast 12-16 hours (so no eating after dinner, until breakfast).

 

I will probably add a few more things in a few weeks. The plan is to attack this on multiple fronts.

 

1. Ensure I have enough choline and acetylcholine.

2. Ensure my glucose metabolism is optimized.

3. Try and remove any Beta Amyloids

4. Try and improve neurogenisis

5. Increase autophagy

 

 

 

 

[KJx]

Thank you for sharing your experience. You did not mention, however, how your current routine works for you? I also heard that some raw juices are really powerful against amyloids and methylene blue helps, too. 

Your regime shows that you really know what you are doing, so I guess you are not as "dumb" as the test shows, or you just had prior knowledge in this, or maybe mental processing powers =/= decision making skills...

What is your opinion about the things I suggested in my last post? Do you think ketogenic diet could be good for you? What about the two substances I mentioned?
Also, is there no way to actually know for sure that you have alzheimer's or not? Theoretically there should be lots of tracks in blood left by the brain dying... I guess in the end, brain diseases are quite similar, at least in ways of treatment and causation. May I ask how old you are? I suppose you tried mental stimulation, thoughtful computer games (Portal 2) for synergy with your treatment? Are you planning to try something more in the future?

Sorry if it's too many questions, I guess it's just a very huge topic.

[Arisia]

KJx. Currently, what I'm doing/taking is working really well. It's like night and day(due mostly to improving my acetylcholine). Now I just need to keep this from progressing.

 

I think keytone bodies are a good thing to try( both neuroprotective and a potential extra energy source for my brain) and it's next on my list of things to try. I'm not considering an actual ketogenic diet, just a low glycemic diet with keytone bodies added by MCTs.

 

Methylene Blue is in the list of potential beneficial substances I've been compiling. I'm not sure about it yet(dosage issues).

 

You know, you'd think there would be an easy way to determine whether or not one has Alzheimer's Disease... but apparently not. Or at least not as far as my doctor's are concerned. There's various factors in CSF that are indicative of Alzheimer's Disease. PET scans can show glucose utilization patterns in the brain that are indicative of AD, and there's a new marker specifically for amyloid as well. MRIs only seem useful after the disease has progressed enough to show atrophy, and I'm probably not there yet. My doctor's are taking a wait and see approach so far, but have prescribed Aricept.

 

As for age, I'm 57. I started noticing issues when I was 46, but they were minor and I thought it was due to stress and lack of sleep. I worked in the IT field so 70 hr weeks were normal, and working 20 hours straight, getting only 3-4 hours of sleep and then working another 20 hours was pretty common.

Then when I was 50 things started getting worse(couldn't do any in-depth planning anymore, things I used to do were difficult to understand, my sense of time was skewed. I couldn't always tell past events from future events(missed a lot of meetings). Couldn't understand that 1 week was not enough time to finish a 4 week project. Thought I had plenty of time... I still had 4 weeks, right?

 

My doctors eventually discovered I have Systemic Lupus, so they thought maybe that was part of the problem. The Lupus is supposedly under control at the moment, so now, we know, something else must be wrong.

 

Sorry for the long reply. I'll have to look into the J147. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TiredAt45]

 

I don't think anything will stop it. Excitoxicity is agonising. I'm in great pain. It feels like my head is on fire.

 

Could you share your experience wtih what you had already tried? There seem to be so many experimental things on teamtlr, I think I'd try all of those indicated for Alzheimer's from them, if I had the disease. Have you tried many of the nootropics? Citicoline, methylene blue?

 

 

Please stop and think, man!  These chemicals are meant for researchers in laboratories to apply to cell cultures and lab rats, not people.  How do you even know whether the stuff is real?  Unless you are prepared to independently analyse every one for structural identification, assay, and lack of toxic contaminants, then you really have no idea what is in any bottle you buy.

 

I'm fine with people putting anything they want into their own bodies.  Then it's our own personal responsibility to weigh the risks, including the risks arising from uncertainty about the authenticity of the compounds themselves, against the possible benefits.

 

But you are talking about "treating" another person, in particular someone who has some measure of cognitive decline.  This could be considered reckless and unethical UNLESS you are very sure that they want your help, want you to administer experimental drugs to them, understand fully the risks and uncertainties involved, and are mentally competent to make a choice about this.

 

But there is a big problem.  In order for them to fully understand, YOU have to fully understand and explain it to them.  However, I don't think you do understand the risks, or else you wouldn't be so eager to propose administering long lists of compounds which have very little science to support their efficacy or safety.  The vendors of these compounds are highly questionable as well.

 

Are you the medical doctor in charge of treating this patient?  If not, then I would only suggest your ideas to the actual patient's doctor, if you are sure that it's a worthy idea.  Let the Dr. decide, unless you have some rock solid logic and evidence to justify deviating from the guidance of a professional.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

400 mg Curcumin (LEF Bio-Curcumin)

 

3. Try and remove any Beta Amyloids

4. Try and improve neurogenisis

5. Increase autophagy

 

IMO, LEF biocurcumin is not the forumulation you want; Longvida has more compelling evidence. Short explanation: see this entire video. Long explanation: read this entire thread. This should help you with #3.

 

For #4, apart from your lion's mane: NGF eye drops, GCSF, and GMCSF are well worth some research. GMCSF is probably the most powerful, but thanks to Big Nanny, also the hardest to obtain because it's a powder that must be properly diluted with saline prior to intramuscular injection -- not for the amateurs out there.

 

For #5, if you're serious, have a look at Everolimus and nilotinib. Definitely autophagize and clear amyloid before you use any growth factors, as you don't want new neurons to emerge in a senescent environment.

 

Keto Force probably blows away MCTs for ketogenic benefits, BTW. But there are some technical challenges discussed here.

 

As to Alzheimer's diagnosis, NeuroVision Imaging is probably the state-of-the art in retinal amyloid imaging. But personally, I don't care about this issue, because whether or not one has Alzheimer's, the Alzheimer's diet is a vey healthy option for almost everyone. And fundamentally, Alzheimer's is a symptomatic diagnosis only peripherally related to amyloid load.

 

In the long run, phosphotau therapeutic vaccine and virally implanted NGF are some of the most promising technologies currently in trials.

 

Based on your provided personal history, sleep deprivation would be top on my list for risk factors. It impairs neural waste removal via the glymphatic system. In this particular case, you might benefit from Prevagen, which is essentially aqueoporin because Wiki says: "Clearance of soluble proteins, waste products, and excess extracellular fluid is accomplished through convective bulk flow of the ISF, facilitated by astrocytic aquaporin 4 (AQP4) water channels". (Prevagen in general dementia use is ineffective, if the anecdotes on Longecity are accurate.)

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 07 March 2015 - 05:59 PM.

[Arisia]

@resveratrol_guy: Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. I'll take a look at the threads you've mentioned, and the products as well.

 

I've been following your GCSF thread, but unless I've misread it, it's not seeming like a solution unfortunately.

 

I had considered aqueporin, but after a little research not only isn't it likely to be effective, but it looks like its not as safe as vendors would like you to believe.

 

I recently decided to add the following to the supplements I'm taking:

 

Nicotinamide Riboside

EGCG

Lithium Orotate (along with PQQ)

 

Unfortunately, I decided to stop some of the supplements I was taking in order to judge the effects of the new supplements better. This in retrospect was a mistake as it has played havock with my mental state, and made me a bit ill feeling.

 

NR was the first thing I added, and it had quite a major negative effect on me. I'm going to get back on my original plan and get to feeling well first, before trying NR again.

 

 

[resveratrol_guy]

@resveratrol_guy: Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. I'll take a look at the threads you've mentioned, and the products as well.

 

I've been following your GCSF thread, but unless I've misread it, it's not seeming like a solution unfortunately.

 

I had considered aqueporin, but after a little research not only isn't it likely to be effective, but it looks like its not as safe as vendors would like you to believe.

 

I recently decided to add the following to the supplements I'm taking:

 

Nicotinamide Riboside

EGCG

Lithium Orotate (along with PQQ)

 

Unfortunately, I decided to stop some of the supplements I was taking in order to judge the effects of the new supplements better. This in retrospect was a mistake as it has played havock with my mental state, and made me a bit ill feeling.

 

NR was the first thing I added, and it had quite a major negative effect on me. I'm going to get back on my original plan and get to feeling well first, before trying NR again.

 

Well, I do think it's fair to say that GCSF has a much stronger effect on cerebrovascular problems than purely neurological ones. At least, that's how I read the results in light of previous research on CD34 stem cells. But considering that every old brain has some vascular issues, it seems like a reasonable way to repair them before putting effort into neurological therapy. After all, brain supplements aren't very useful if the BBB is incompetent. Obviously, these benefits would need to be weighed against the unknown aspects of this growth factor, and the benefits of vitamin K2 (the poor man's approximation of GCSF). Beyond that, GMCSF might be the elephant in the room, but the data are preliminary.

 

EGCG is a good choice, on account of its antiamyloid activity. Although I wonder whether it would actually complement Longvida, or just waste money targetting the same pathway. It sounds like Longvida might act similarly to clioquinol, namely, by removing metal ions from amyloid aggregates, resulting in enhanced solubility and eventual clearance through the BBB. (BTW I have not written off clioquinol. I'm trying to determine whether the maufacturing problems with PBT1 affect generic clioquinol from various banana republic pharmacies as well.)

 

I've been debating lithium for a while, but it seems to be very dose-dependent, rather like zinc, and I have no idea how to adjust intake for maximum benefit.

 

I'm surprised NR had a negative effect on you. Given the rumors of kidney issues with both NR and D-ribose, you might check BUN and creatinine before and after restarting, in case that's the problem. Stem cell Sally experienced obvious cognitive benefits with NR, which unwound days after cessation. I believe she intends to resume soon.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 08 March 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[Arisia]

Lithium is definitely a tricky one. Even though it's effects are dose-dependent, there's at least one report of micro doses being effective. so I figure it's worth a shot. It's effects on GSK-3 and inhibition of HSV-1 make it very attractive to me.

 

Very interesting information regarding NR. I had not heard of it affecting kidney function. My last blood work had my eGFR flagged as low, so maybe something to watch out for. Thanks.

[Synzael]

If you get Cerebrolysin or P21 from ceretropic i think that would be your best bet. it has shown much promise in this area.

[Arisia]

If you get Cerebrolysin or P21 from ceretropic i think that would be your best bet. it has shown much promise in this area.

 

I have considered that. It appears to be the same or similar to peptide 6.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20697724

 

The only reason I haven't tried it yet is my concern with substances like this.

 

Thanks for the input.

[Logic]

I don't see Niacin=Nicotinic Acid (Not any form that ends in amide) mentioned.

Read Turnbuckle's profile page on why I think its a good idea.

 

MCT oils ketogenic diets are mentioned, but you are missing out on an important factor and a cheaper source of MCTs by not considering Virgin Coconut Oil:

Lauric Acid disrupts the lipid layer on lipid coated virii. (the majority of virii and the ones you cant be inoculated against)

This has 2 effects :  The lipid layer disguises the virus as a lipid ('food') disrupting the layer exposes the virus to the immune system and disrupts its ability to dock with and infect cells.

HSV, Epstein Bar etc are associated with Alz.

 

Also look into chelation/ors like M30 etc.

I would also go with C60oo if I were treating Alz.

 

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