27 replies to this topic

[eon]

I think most of the world drinks caffeinated drinks whether tea, coffee, soda, etc. I'm not sure if I can remember being "off" caffeine. Could it be the cause of all our problems? I'm looking into it. I think it gave me a heart defect (mitral valve prolapse) and psychological disorders, but I won't point fingers. Much like a drug addict or an alcoholic will not blame their vices.

 

I'm experimenting with not having any caffeine for a week and see how I feel sort of like resetting the brain and body or fasting off caffeine. I know lots of people who can't imagine not having a cup of coffee for a day. Psychologically they think they can't function without it. A lot of these people think they are productive yet they haven't done anything or they are on a plateau year after year for most or the rest of their lives. I don't want to be in this trap and want to break this cycle.

 

Maybe caffeine is a problem?

Edited by eon, 21 November 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Nootropic Milk Hotel]

I have never touched coffee and I'm far from where I would like to be, cognitively. I'm sure caffeine causes problems in people who consume a ton of it every day, but I haven't seen any evidence that moderate caffeine consumption is harmful.

[Kalliste]

Caffeine is probably the most frequently ingested pharmacologically active substance in the world. If it did carry some serious toxicity we would know about that. But consumed in it's traditional form (coffee and tea) it seems like a very good substance for most people who do not have medical contra-indications. I suspect the hormetic effect is the key. Do a pubmed search and you will find tons of positive stuff re cancer, dementia, obesity.

[gamesguru]

Mitrial valve prolapse caused by caffeine? That's a new one. Had you said something about caffeine causing arrhythmias or palpitations I might have afforded you an ounce of credibility...

Agreed that moderate caffeine consumption seems healthy. Probably two-three cups of coffee daily would be bordering on immoderate. But just one cup a day causing cognitive dysfunction?

 

Doubtful. The likelier explanation is a poor diet, genetics, or retarding environmental factors, with the bulk of the blame probably attributable to genetics.

 

Consider Paul Erdos, a caffeine and amphetamine addict, an anorexic man who neglected his health for work, constantly traveling, never resting or recuperating. What would your first impression be of a character described thusly? He must be down and out, destitute, must have died young, and been unproductive and scatter-brained from stimulant abuse. Quite the contrary, Erdos was the most prolific mathematician of the 20th century, publishing nearly 2000 papers in 50 years! So impressed by his colleague was Alfred Renyi that he made the bold statement "a mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems".

 

 

 

For fifteen days I struggled to prove that no functions
analogous to those I have since called Fuchsian functions
could exist; I was then very ignorant. Every day I sat
down at my work table where I spent an hour or two; I
tried a great number of combinations and arrived at no
result. One evening, contrary to my custom, I took black
coffee; I could not go to sleep; ideas swarmed up in clouds;
I sensed them clashing until, to put it so, a pair would hook
together to form a stable combination. By morning I had
established the existence of a class of Fuchsian functions,
those derived from the hypergeometric series. I had only to
write up the results, which took me a few hours.
Nest I wished to represent these functions by the quo-
tient of two series; this idea was perfectly conscious and
thought out; analogy with elliptic functions guided me. I
asked myself what must be the properties of these series if
they existed, and without diiTiculty I constructed the series
which I called thetafuchsian.

 

 

 

 

Want less anecdotes more research?

 

This study leads one to conclude tea (preferably white or green)  is superior to coffee. This one shows evidence that chronic caffeine consumption is anxiolytic, that is anti-stress. Unrelated but an interesting tidbit, tea may additionally improve dental health. Such a wonderful plant.

 

My advice, try cutting caffeine out for a month, when you realize that has done nothing to improve your intelligence, add 3 cups of tea daily, and start blaming other factors (ones you can control) diet, exercise, shallow environmental factors (and ones you cannot control) genetics, deep environmental factors. When you realize you're not cut out to be some universal genius, nobel laureate, recipient of the shock prize and fields medal, try not to beat yourself up too much or to be too disappointed or indignant, because despite your best efforts, whatever supplements you take, however healthy you eat, however much you exercise, you'll probably be a mediocre average Joe on the street, IQ<125. Your NZT hopes and dreams will be frustrated, our skill hasn't placed cognitive enhancement within our reach. When will it be within reach? Probably in another 200-500 years.

Edited by dasheenster, 21 November 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

My advice, try cutting caffeine out for a month, when you realize that has done nothing to improve your intelligence, add 3 cups of tea daily

 

I went off caffeine completely last year around this time for just over a month and felt it was beneficial to me. It definitely did not make me smarter. However, there were clear and obvious positive effects once the initial drowsy/headachy period was over:

- the lack of (sometimes too extreme) energy highs and lows through the day.

- better sensitivity/effects to exercise and diet. 

 

Once just over a month had passed, I reintroduced caffeine in the form of green tea. I would have a small shot of espresso with milk only whenever I really needed the boost. And I've kept up a schedule of less coffee, some days none, since then. And I plan to do another month without caffeine starting from mid-January next year.

 

In summary, quitting caffeine is not a nootropic, but depending on your genetic makeup it can still be an overall positive change. Try it and see how you feel. (Have to stick it out past week one, or you'll likely only experience the withdrawal effects).

 

[JellyRev]

caffeine is a stimulant. 

 

I've went on and off caffeine. 

 

Without caffeine I do not feel a crash but I do get tired much earlier. 

 

When I used to drink my caffeine of choice diet mountain all day I could keep going all day. 

 

It is also difficult for me to consume alcohol without caffeine. I just end up getting tired without it. But on it I can drink way past where I should be drinking. 

 

 Trying to stay off both atm. Alpha GPC takes up the slack, or pitolisant I'm trialing. adrafinil if I really need to stay awake. But I do not get much out of adrafinil except wakefulness. 

 

 

[gamesguru]

I went off caffeine completely last year around this time for just over a month and felt it was beneficial to me. There were clear and obvious positive effects once the initial drowsy/headachy period was over:

- the lack of (sometimes too extreme) energy highs and lows through the day.

- better sensitivity/effects to exercise and diet. 

 

How much caffeine were you consuming per day? It must have been bordering on immoderate to cause such extreme fatigue and disturbances in one's homeostasis, or even to experience noticeable withdrawal symptoms ie) headache and drowsiness. If I were to go cold turkey on tea, I would not have noticeable withdrawal symptoms, nor would I feel rejuvenated and less of a crash, I would presumably feel worse, less alert, less vigilant without my prized elixir...that's 3 cups a day, ~150mg caffeine, the equivalent of one cup of coffee. Very moderate.

 

caffeine is a stimulant. 

YES.
 

I've went on and off caffeine. 

I TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT.
 

Without caffeine I do not feel a crash but I do get tired much earlier. 

IF YOU FEEL BETTER WITHOUT IT, WHY TRY TO WORK AT AN UNNATURAL, INHUMAN PACE? WHEN YOU BECOME TIRED (AT 2PM), TAKE A BREAK FROM WORK; ONCE YOU ARE RESTED, RETURN TO YOUR WORK. SUBMIT TO YOUR BODY CLOCK AND SLEEP DRIVE. DO NOT RESIST THEM WITH STIMULANTS, OR YOU SHALL CRASH.

 

When I used to drink caffeine all day I could keep going all day. 

EXCESSIVE CAFFEINE CONSUMPTION IS NOT RECOMMENDED.

 

It is also difficult for me to consume alcohol without caffeine. I just end up getting tired without it. But on it I can drink way past where I should be drinking. 
ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION IS NOT RECOMMENDED, NOT RED WINE OR EVEN SPINACH WINE; MAY AS WELL JUST EAT CONCORD GRAPES, OR SPINACH. FERMENTED CABBAGE  (SAUERKRAUT) MAY BE HEALTHIER THAN RAW CABBAGE, BUT CAN YOU MAKE A CASE THAT FERMENTED DRINKS ARE HEALTHIER THAN THEIR RAW FOODS? I THINK NOT.

 

 Trying to stay off both atm. Alpha GPC[A] takes up the slack, or pitolisant[B] I'm trialing. adrafinil[C] if I really need to stay awake. But I do not get much out of adrafinil except wakefulness.
NOR IS THE CONSUMPTION OF [A], [B], OR [C].

 

Edited by dasheenster, 22 November 2014 - 12:33 AM.

[JellyRev]

I do get any other withdrawal symptoms from caffeine. just tired. 

 

I would say I had consumption levels around 400mgs a day. 

now please lecture me some more about it lol. 

 

I do not know what your profession is but in construction you don't just take a break/siesta at 2.

 

400mgs was when I was working 12-14 hour days sometimes 7 days a week. its life.

 

as I said I know it was a high dose

 

I hope you don't freak out at every person here who has experimented with nootropics in megadoses or those who admit to benzo, ghb, gbl, opiate, amphetamine, etc abuse in the past. There are a lot here.

Let alone those group buys of non-trialed/barely trialed drugs/nootropics lol.  

[eon]

There was a finding that guarana caused or may have exacerbate mitral valve prolapse and caused a death. Mitral valve prolapse is a magnesium deficiency and caffeine depletes magnesium (afaik). Of course guarana is a stronger source of caffeine than coffee is, but just proves there's a connection. If you do a google search there are information out there saying coffee is not really good for the heart. Arrythmias and palpitations may lead to mitral valve prolapse, who knows. I'm sure this is dose dependent. It does something to the brain as well.

 

I know all you coffee lovers would disagree. It's like telling a crackhead cocaine is bad for you, she would disagree. I do miss caffeine, it's only been 2 days since I'm off it. Like I said I'm only experimenting for a week without it. I'm already craving it. i'm not here to change your mind or make you agree with me.

 

Caffeine being anxiolytic is new to me. It's opposite of that considering your heart is pounding and you're "alert" ready to fight whatever the day brings you. Far from an anxiolytic. That study may have been paid for by the yuppies who own Starbuck's stocks or Dunkin Donut's stock.

 

Mitrial valve prolapse caused by caffeine? That's a new one. Had you said something about caffeine causing arrhythmias or palpitations I might have afforded you an ounce of credibility...

Agreed that moderate caffeine consumption seems healthy. Probably two-three cups of coffee daily would be bordering on immoderate. But just one cup a day causing cognitive dysfunction?

 

Doubtful. The likelier explanation is a poor diet, genetics, or retarding environmental factors, with the bulk of the blame probably attributable to genetics.

 

Consider Paul Erdos, a caffeine and amphetamine addict, an anorexic man who neglected his health for work, constantly traveling, never resting or recuperating. What would your first impression be of a character described thusly? He must be down and out, destitute, must have died young, and been unproductive and scatter-brained from stimulant abuse. Quite the contrary, Erdos was the most prolific mathematician of the 20th century, publishing nearly 2000 papers in 50 years! So impressed by his colleague was Alfred Renyi that he made the bold statement "a mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems".

 

 

 

For fifteen days I struggled to prove that no functions
analogous to those I have since called Fuchsian functions
could exist; I was then very ignorant. Every day I sat
down at my work table where I spent an hour or two; I
tried a great number of combinations and arrived at no
result. One evening, contrary to my custom, I took black
coffee; I could not go to sleep; ideas swarmed up in clouds;
I sensed them clashing until, to put it so, a pair would hook
together to form a stable combination. By morning I had
established the existence of a class of Fuchsian functions,
those derived from the hypergeometric series. I had only to
write up the results, which took me a few hours.
Nest I wished to represent these functions by the quo-
tient of two series; this idea was perfectly conscious and
thought out; analogy with elliptic functions guided me. I
asked myself what must be the properties of these series if
they existed, and without diiTiculty I constructed the series
which I called thetafuchsian.

 

 

 

 

Want less anecdotes more research?

 

This study leads one to conclude tea (preferably white or green)  is superior to coffee. This one shows evidence that chronic caffeine consumption is anxiolytic, that is anti-stress. Unrelated but an interesting tidbit, tea may additionally improve dental health. Such a wonderful plant.

 

My advice, try cutting caffeine out for a month, when you realize that has done nothing to improve your intelligence, add 3 cups of tea daily, and start blaming other factors (ones you can control) diet, exercise, shallow environmental factors (and ones you cannot control) genetics, deep environmental factors. When you realize you're not cut out to be some universal genius, nobel laureate, recipient of the shock prize and fields medal, try not to beat yourself up too much or to be too disappointed or indignant, because despite your best efforts, whatever supplements you take, however healthy you eat, however much you exercise, you'll probably be a mediocre average Joe on the street, IQ<125. Your NZT hopes and dreams will be frustrated, our skill hasn't placed cognitive enhancement within our reach. When will it be within reach? Probably in another 200-500 years.

 

Edited by eon, 22 November 2014 - 01:27 AM.

[gamesguru]

I don't get any other withdrawal symptoms from caffeine. just tired. 

 

I would say I had consumption levels around 400mgs a day. 

now please lecture me some more about it lol. 

 

I do not know what your profession is but in construction you don't just take a break/siesta at 2.

 

400mgs was when I was working 12-14 hour days sometimes 7 days a week. its life.

 

as I said I know it was a high dose

 

I hope you don't freak out at every person here who has experimented with nootropics in megadoses or those who admit to benzo, ghb, gbl, opiate, amphetamine, etc abuse in the past. There are a lot here.

Let alone those group buys of non-trialed/barely trialed drugs/nootropics lol.  

It's unusual not to get withdrawal effects after quitting a 3cups coffee per day habit, but not something to complain about. 

 

If one cannot simply take a generous lunch break, one could prepare at home and transport to work in a glass or steel thermos 3cups worth of tea to be quickly downed when the first signs of tiredness appear. A good way for the overworked to remedy their midday crash.

 

Harm reduction is a form of "freaking out". I've done my fair share of stupid stuff, including racetams and GPC, vinpocetine (terrible stuff), rhodiola, amphetamine, THC, and LSD...but at some point you have to wisen up, quit taking research chems, like a guniea pig being fed plutonium, it can't be as benign or sustainable as low dose caffeine. A couple years ago I may have joined a group buy, but now it seems risky and I'd rather stick to more proven means, whole plant foods.

Probably all these people should curb their enthusiasm, and wait for mouse studies, as many of these compounds if not harmful, will prove completely useless, not helping or harming anyone's health. So why waste the money and run the risk? They look to things like 7,8-dihydroxyflavone and Dihexa to cure for dementia and depression, C60 for general aging...great if they work and are proven, but they're not proven and won't be proven until there are controlled studies on humans & mice.

 

 

 

 

[1]There was a finding that guarana caused or may have exacerbate mitral valve prolapse and caused a death. [2]Mitral valve prolapse is a magnesium deficiency and caffeine depletes magnesium (afaik). Of course guarana is a stronger source of caffeine than coffee is, but just proves there's a connection. If you do a google search there are information out there saying coffee is not really good for the heart. Arrythmias and palpitations may lead to mitral valve prolapse, who knows. I'm sure this is dose dependent. [3]It does something to the brain as well.

 

I know all you coffee lovers would disagree. It's like telling a crackhead cocaine is bad for you, she would disagree. [4]I do miss caffeine, it's only been 2 days since I'm off it. Like I said I'm only experimenting for a week without it. I'm already craving it. i'm not here to change your mind or make you agree with me.

 

[5]Caffeine being anxiolytic is new to me. [6]It's opposite of that considering your heart is pounding and you're "alert" ready to fight whatever the day brings you. Far from an anxiolytic. That study may have been paid for by the yuppies who own Starbuck's stocks or Dunkin Donut's stock.

[1] That's guano, er Guarana. And you said it caused ONE death? That's a wealth of evidence to pool from, chief. Consider caffeine causes thousands of deaths every year related to arrhythmia, now that's a wealth of evidence.

 

[2] Mitrial prolapse is not the same thing as magnesium deficiency. Some prolapses may be seriously exacerbated by a magnesium deficiency, if that's the case one should increase dietary intake of magnesium. Magnesium, along with potassium, calcium and vitamin D, is one of the most difficult nutrients to obtain in sufficiency from one's diet without supplementation, and in vegans this is also true of B12; a survey found that less than 1 out of 4 Americans obtained the RDA for magnesium on a daily basis. Good sources of magnesium include pepitas (250mg/100g), boiled quinoa (60mg/100g), boiled brown rice (40mg/100g) & boiled beans (80mg/100g), boiled spinach (80mg/100g), and bananas (30mg/100g). To further aid absorption, don't consume other healthy foods, for example calcium sources, with your magnesium source, give it preference for a whole meal, once a day, allowing the magnesium adaquete time to absorb. "Frequent consumption of alcohol, coffee, food components ie, phytates [beans], phosphorous, fiber, saturated fats, tannins[fruits], polyphenols [tea] can block or decrease mineral absorption." In short, you may have to supplement magnesium, or stuff your face with only the finest foods.

 

[3] Such a precise statement, chief.

 

[4]Only two days? Only planning to abstain for a week, then you're reverting to addiction denial and being a caffeine-head? Do as you please, chief.

 

[5]Perhaps isolated caffeine is more adaptogenic than anxiolytic. The studies with theanine and caffeine though clearly demonstrate a significant  anxiolytic effect, that's multiple studies verified and reproduced, multiple universities, different funding sources...hard to deny. Some extremely sharp witted yuppies indeed: "The aim of this study was to compare 50 mg caffeine, with and without 100 mg L-theanine, on cognition and mood in healthy volunteers. The effects of these treatments on word recognition, rapid visual information processing, critical flicker fusion threshold, attention switching and mood were compared to placebo in 27 participants. Performance was measured at baseline and again 60 min and 90 min after each treatment (separated by a 7-day washout). Caffeine improved subjective alertness at 60 min and accuracy on the attention-switching task at 90 min. The L-theanine and caffeine combination improved both speed and accuracy of performance of the attention-switching task at 60 min, and reduced susceptibility to distracting information in the memory task at both 60 min and 90 min. These results replicate previous evidence which suggests that L-theanine and caffeine in combination are beneficial for improving performance on cognitively demanding tasks."

 

[6]Caffeine is bad for the heart you say? A study of 40,530 Japanese adults found that participants who drank more than five cups of tea a day had a 26% lower risk of heart attack or stroke than those who drank less than one cup of tea a day. Cheers.

Edited by dasheenster, 22 November 2014 - 03:23 AM.

[JellyRev]

 

If one cannot simply take a generous lunch break, one could prepare at home and transport to work in a glass or steel thermos 3cups worth of tea to be quickly downed when the first signs of tiredness appear. A good way for the overworked to remedy their midday crash.

 

Harm reduction is a form of "freaking out". I've done my fair share of stupid stuff, including racetams and GPC, vinpocetine (terrible stuff), rhodiola, amphetamine, THC, and LSD...but at some point you have to wisen up, quit taking research chems, like a guniea pig being fed plutonium, it can't be as benign or sustainable as low dose caffeine. A couple years ago I may have joined agroup buy, but now it seems risky and I'd rather stick to more proven means, whole plant foods.

Probably all these people should curb their enthusiasm, and wait for mouse studies, as many of these compounds if not harmful, will prove completely useless, not helping or harming anyone's health. So why waste the money and run the risk? They look to things like 7,8-dihydroxyflavone and Dihexa to cure for dementia and depression, C60 for general aging...great if they work and are proven, but they're not proven and won't be proven until there are controlled studies on humans & mice.

I said I don't crash anymore but I get tired as soon work is over. almost like my body knows work is over.

 

I had cancer with radiation and a couple years of chemotherapy as a toddler as treatment, an experimental treatment. I am trying to correct issues that likely came from that. I am not a typical case as my body has already been fried by chemicals. 

[medicineman]

caffeine retrospectively prolongs lifespan. it also has anti-dementia, anti-parkinsonian, anti-hyperglycemic, and inotropic effects. I wouldn't quit caffeine.

[Gerrans]

I am not surprised to read reports that normal regular coffee or tea consumption is not harmful. My theory is this. All plant matter contains stimulants, and so we are adapted to ingesting them. When we concentrate or increase stimulant content in a certain food, such as coffee, guarana capsules, or whatever, obviously that has more effect and becomes druglike. But most people manage their intake of stimulants below a level that makes them feel uncomfortable.

[gamesguru]

I said I don't crash anymore but I get tired as soon work is over. almost like my body knows work is over.

 

I had cancer with radiation and a couple years of chemotherapy as a toddler as treatment, an experimental treatment. I am trying to correct issues that likely came from that. I am not a typical case as my body has already been fried by chemicals. 

 

If you're not getting tired till like 6-7pm, maybe you're better off without the caffeine. It just seemed you admitted to getting tired around 2PM after quitting. Even so, it might be good to trial some loose leaf tea (Japanese sencha and Chinese or Indian silver needle won't disappoint).

 

For someone who had cancer as a toddler, I would be especially inclined to recommend you to a predominantly organic, plant-based, lightly cooked diet. Animal products should be pasture raised, inorganic foods or foods cooked at high temperatures should be eaten with copious amounts of fruits and vegetables (my personal recommendations being cooked garlic "Diallyl disulfide was the most efficient organosulfur compound in reducing benzo(a)pyrene genotoxicity. S-allyl cysteine and allyl mercaptan significantly decreased DNA breaks in HepG2 cells treated with N-Nitrosodimethylamine." and kiwifruit "Purine oxidation in lymphocyte DNA decreased significantly after one kiwifruit per day, pyrimidine oxidation decreased after two fruits per day.").

 

It is the best diet for cellular healing and preventative care. All other things constant, the person eating healthier will be healthier and live longer. Although such a diet takes a lot of time and commitment it doesn't take much money, probably $20/day; a whole day's worth of healthy food, cheaper than one dinner at a three star restaurant.

 

 

 

I am not surprised to read reports that normal regular coffee or tea consumption is not harmful. My theory is this. All plant matter contains stimulants, and so we are adapted to ingesting them. When we concentrate or increase stimulant content in a certain food, such as coffee, guarana capsules, or whatever, obviously that has more effect and becomes druglike. But most people manage their intake of stimulants below a level that makes them feel uncomfortable.

 

Firstly, not all plant contains stimulants; does white willow, no, but it contains an analgesic: salicin. Depends how addictive the stimulant is. For crack cocaine or amphetamine salts, abuse is more common and less likely to be self-regulated than for caffeine or LSD. So to say we're adapted to ingesting them and we tend to moderate our intake seems to suggest they are harmless and cause no organ damage, an assertion contrary to what we know for example about chewing tobacco which is far more harmful than chewing tea leaves, although both are plants, or about cocaine which is far more harmful than caffeine, although both are naturally-occurring alkaloids.

Edited by dasheenster, 22 November 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Caffeine may not cause mitral valve prolapse, but people with MVP usually don't handle caffeine well; furthermore caffeine may increase mechanical stess on an already-flawed valve, so in this sense, caffeine consumption could exacerbate MVP. MVP and related phenomena are discussed here.

 

As stated above, caffeine is epidemiologically associated with reduced dementia and cancer. Perhaps that's due to enhanced tissue perfusion. But perhaps it's just because caffeine happens to be in drinks which are otherwise rich in flavonols, like green tea and black coffee. Cola has plenty of caffeine, but it's certainly not associated with health improvements. If you want to "do" caffeine, take a hint from Jean Calment (lived to 122, "ate nearly one kilogram (2.2 lb) of chocolate every week") and Sarah Knauss (lived to 119, "nibbling on milk chocolate turtles"): get it from (organic, fair-trade, 70%+) dark chocolate. I personally used to get ill from the stuff; c60oo seems to have put an end to that, and now I eat 700 g/week. I guess I need to add 40% to that in order to compete with Calment, even before adjusting for body weight. This is gonna be fun...

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 November 2014 - 10:24 PM.

[StevesPetRat]

To answer the thread's title: No, LOL

 

Now for a question to derail it slightly: I'm hearing good things about white tea these days. Anybody familiar with the latest research?

 

Edit: Oh, and I haven't had any caffeine in 6 months maybe. I've consumed as much as 3 energy drinks and a few cups of coffee per day regularly. Personally, it makes no difference whatsoever to me once my tolerance adjusts.

Edited by StevesPetRat, 22 November 2014 - 11:07 PM.

[drstrangeglove]

Personally I hate caffeine. It makes me jittery and stressed and then I crash and get sleepy. Green tea is OK, but anything more than 20mg seems to cause undesirable effects. 

[Godof Smallthings]

 

I went off caffeine completely last year around this time for just over a month and felt it was beneficial to me. There were clear and obvious positive effects once the initial drowsy/headachy period was over:

- the lack of (sometimes too extreme) energy highs and lows through the day.

- better sensitivity/effects to exercise and diet. 

 

How much caffeine were you consuming per day? It must have been bordering on immoderate to cause such extreme fatigue and disturbances in one's homeostasis, or even to experience noticeable withdrawal symptoms ie) headache and drowsiness. If I were to go cold turkey on tea, I would not have noticeable withdrawal symptoms, nor would I feel rejuvenated and less of a crash, I would presumably feel worse, less alert, less vigilant without my prized elixir...that's 3 cups a day, ~150mg caffeine, the equivalent of one cup of coffee. Very moderate

I don't think stopping tea causes headaches, but I know several other coffee drinkers who have experienced withdrawal headaches.

 

Personally I drank both coffee and tea, and during very intense work periods I sometimes had upwards of 4-5 large cups of espresso per day.

[Introspecta]

I've been on and off caffiene many times. Caffienes negative effects shine more when your Testosterone is low and possibly when DHEA is low. I noticed when Supplementing DHEA I did not find I needed caffiene in the morning but would still take some in fear of a headache or foggyheaded withdrawal. I did notice when going to the gym and boosting Testosterone I could get away with extra caffiene not causing extreme fatigue and adrenal burnout type symptoms. But when not exercising and eating properly. Low libido and noticeably low Test symptoms cafffienes negative effects really start showing its face. So basically It depends on how healthy you are and how much your taking. I def think we'd be much better off without it and have always felt better without it but would give in on days of less sleep.

 

When completely off Caffiene I feel much more balanced. My moods are more stable and I'm not as tired at the end of the day. The only caffiene I'd usually have is Redbull or Monster. Drinking one Lo carb monster with 140mgs of caffiene while didn't seem to cause any sort of adrenal burnout def made me crash 3 hours after drinking and causes fatigue throughout the day. When drinking 2 Monsters my mood and fatigue is out of wack. Doing this for a significant period of time 3-4 weeks seems to make me feel like shit. I'm more tired waking up in the morning. Can't function without it.

 

I've also experimented with drinking Tea only and don't find any negative effects. I assume it would be the same with coffee though coffee has much more caffiene in it. I can't see how drinking one coffee in the morning would cause any problems but when it turns to 2-3 cups thats when the problems arise. But your much better off with coffee than energy drinks. For whatever reason with me at least I feel much more up and down with them. For some reason natural caffiene feels much smoother.

 

The times I've made it 2-3 weeks without caffiene I def felt the best. I'd always manage to find my way back into drinking it in excess though. It would be nice to use on a as needed basis. Lately I've picked up some exedrin and on some days will just take 1 which is 65 mgs of caffiene. I feel good taking this small amount which still seems to wake me up but doesn't cause a crash.

 

DHEA, DLPA, L-tyrosine are all useful in helping with Caffiene Withdrawal. Also L-dopa for short periods will help quite a bit. It may even potentiate caffiene to the point were its too much. I know I've cut my caffiene intake in half when using some of these supplements.

 

Then theres the people like my father who drinks 1-2 pots of coffee a day. He always has a coffee going. I don't know how he does it. He doesn't seem to experience any excess fatigue or negative effects. 60 years old and is up after 5 hours of sleep running errands and doing work around the house before he goes to work. Some people are just senstive to the negative effects like me. Caffiene really is a shitty stimulant though. Especially when your tired it doens't seem to wake me up fully. I end up stimulated but yet my eyes are just super tired.

[JellyRev]

Thanks for the advice dasheenster

[eon]

Maybe the thread's title is a bit exaggerated. I do not drink pure coffee anymore. I drink teas. Although the caffeine in Yerba Mate tend to feel cleaner than coffee yet it wakes you up more than coffee or any teas. Which is why it is becoming a popular tea. I drink other types of teas as well some caffeinated and some not. My 3 days off caffeine was ok. I had to use some on my 4th day because I needed to stay awake. LOL. I drank some mocha frappe which is technically coffee with chocolate. I drank some iced black tea as well that same day.

 

Curious if those people who have ailments that caffeine is supposed to prevent never drank caffeinated drinks (coffee, tea, etc) which is why they were affected by the illnesses? No one will ever know this. It's not like the researchers looked into how many times the people they studied went to Starbucks or Panera Bread throughout their lives. I still doubt if they even drank coffee daily they would never be sick. I'd like to believe teas and coffee have health benefits but still people are getting sick. I know lots of people who have had psychological disorders just from coffee, yet they refuse to believe it as much as an alcoholic denies it's the alcohol or the drugs. Maybe coffee (or caffeine) is not so much a direct cause but perhaps it awakens whatever ailments are dormant (heart defect, psychological issues, etc.). Alcohol does this so does marijuana. Just because coffee (caffeine) is legal nobody looks at its adverse health effects. If it were illegal then people will be talking.

 

If I posted a thread on a marijuana forum bashing marijuana I would get the same reaction as on this coffee thread. Let's be real. I still have caffeinated drinks that I won't throw out. I only lasted 3 days without caffeine because of work demands. Had I had piracetam pills handy I probably would have chosen it to make me more alert than caffeine. I plan on capping piracetam to take with me. 

Edited by eon, 25 November 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[eon]

coffee does the same thing to me ONLY when I am well rested. For whatever reason it does a great job when I have to be up more than 24 hours due to not being able to sleep then having to go to work. This is when caffeine becomes my friend. 

 

Try Yerba Mate. It feels very clean than coffee or even tea even though it's a tea as well from South America. 

 

Personally I hate caffeine. It makes me jittery and stressed and then I crash and get sleepy. Green tea is OK, but anything more than 20mg seems to cause undesirable effects. 

 

[eon]

are you saying coffee's caffeine does not deplete magnesium? I thought I read that it does. Mitral Valve Prolapse is a magnesium deficiency. Before I became a coffee or tea drinker I was fine, no mitral valve prolapse diagnosis. After I had my anxiety/panic attack considering it affects the heart (tachycardia), I had a mitral valve prolapse diagnosis. Even then I never looked into caffeine (or coffee) as the source. I never supplemented with any vitamin then as well which is probably why I may have been depleted of magnesium. I am fine now though since I supplement with magnesium glycinate. But as the title of the thread implies, caffeine (or coffee) may have been the big elephant in the room that people missed out. I started drinking coffee in my teens as a way to stay awake because every teens are sleep deprived as I was. Big mistake. I think those instant coffee that I used to drink I may have used a bit much of it instead of a tiny teaspoon I may have used a big tablespoon at 2-3 cups a day. That may have been my mistake. It never really made me stay up considering how fatigued I got after such consumption. It was a long time ago so I can't remember how much really I was using. There was a caffeine powder death a while ago when the person consumed a teaspoon or tablespoon of it when it should have been measured using a gram scale. I'm sure that person thought it will make him/her be superman for a day. Remember caffeine is a drug.

 

I'm not here to make anyone stop drinking Starbucks coffee nor am I complete stopping caffeine intake (only when needed) but I feel my opinions and thread has validity despite people already calling me ill informed, etc.

 

http://www.caffeinei...cts-of-caffeine

 

By the way, chocolate never made me feel jittery. I wish I could afford a kilo of chocolate a week. Know any company who sells them bulk? I prefer the 90% dark chocolate which Lindt sells. What is c60oo?

 

Caffeine may not cause mitral valve prolapse, but people with MVP usually don't handle caffeine well; furthermore caffeine may increase mechanical stess on an already-flawed valve, so in this sense, caffeine consumption could exacerbate MVP. MVP and related phenomena are discussed here.

 

As stated above, caffeine is epidemiologically associated with reduced dementia and cancer. Perhaps that's due to enhanced tissue perfusion. But perhaps it's just because caffeine happens to be in drinks which are otherwise rich in flavonols, like green tea and black coffee. Cola has plenty of caffeine, but it's certainly not associated with health improvements. If you want to "do" caffeine, take a hint from Jean Calment (lived to 122, "ate nearly one kilogram (2.2 lb) of chocolate every week") and Sarah Knauss (lived to 119, "nibbling on milk chocolate turtles"): get it from (organic, fair-trade, 70%+) dark chocolate. I personally used to get ill from the stuff; c60oo seems to have put an end to that, and now I eat 700 g/week. I guess I need to add 40% to that in order to compete with Calment, even before adjusting for body weight. This is gonna be fun...

 

Edited by eon, 25 November 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[eon]

For someone who think vinpocetine is terrible stuff, you lost your credibility. I've used vinpocetine as a vasodilator, works great for workout. I've used it for tinnitus as well (ringing of the ears). Only thing I liked about caffeine is it gets me up when needed.

 

Vinpocetine is reported to have cerebral blood-flow enhancing[2] and neuroprotective effects,[3] and is used as a drug in Eastern Europe for the treatment of cerebrovascular disorders and age-related memory impairment.[4]

 

Vinpocetine is not approved in the United States for pharmaceutical use, but it can be sold as a dietary supplement. Vinpocetine is widely marketed as a supplement for vasodilation and as a nootropic for the improvement of memory and cerebral metabolism. Vinpocetine has been identified as a potent anti-inflammatory agent that might have a potential role in the treatment of Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.[5][6]

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Vinpocetine

 

1. So caffeine caused deaths from arrythmias like you said. Is that a positive to caffeine like you're so giddy about?

 

2. Mitral valve prolapse is a magnesium deficiency for the most part. Caffeine depletes magnesium. And those arrhytmias you're so giddy about couldn't be too good for the heart unless you disagree?

 

3. Yes, very precise. As precise as your statement.

 

4. I get it, you're a caffeine lover and hate caffeine snubs.

 

5. Coffee gives jitters which is technically borderline anxiety. Unless you disagree? Those (for profit) universities making such claims all have stocks with Starbucks and their school cafeteria all serve coffee. There's little money in teas. Those underpaid, overworked staff need coffee. Any such "funding" of such studies were brought to you by Starbucks and Green Mountain. I've done the caffeine with L-theanine. Worked great. I think it's the L-theanine though.

 

6. The Japanese are not known for heart attacks. Plus tea has lower levels of caffeine. I'd trust tea leaves than coffee beans. 26% lower risk isn't saying much. Come back to me when these Starbucks studies shows 100% less risk heart attacks from Japanese. They're less prone to heart attacks because it's the sushi, not the teas or coffee. The Japanese are generally slimmer than westerners.

 

7. Your non credible response shows your jitteriness. Do your self a favor and lay off the beans! You've been snorting that too long!

 

 

I don't get any other withdrawal symptoms from caffeine. just tired. 

 

I would say I had consumption levels around 400mgs a day. 

now please lecture me some more about it lol. 

 

I do not know what your profession is but in construction you don't just take a break/siesta at 2.

 

400mgs was when I was working 12-14 hour days sometimes 7 days a week. its life.

 

as I said I know it was a high dose

 

I hope you don't freak out at every person here who has experimented with nootropics in megadoses or those who admit to benzo, ghb, gbl, opiate, amphetamine, etc abuse in the past. There are a lot here.

Let alone those group buys of non-trialed/barely trialed drugs/nootropics lol.  

It's unusual not to get withdrawal effects after quitting a 3cups coffee per day habit, but not something to complain about. 

 

If one cannot simply take a generous lunch break, one could prepare at home and transport to work in a glass or steel thermos 3cups worth of tea to be quickly downed when the first signs of tiredness appear. A good way for the overworked to remedy their midday crash.

 

Harm reduction is a form of "freaking out". I've done my fair share of stupid stuff, including racetams and GPC, vinpocetine (terrible stuff), rhodiola, amphetamine, THC, and LSD...but at some point you have to wisen up, quit taking research chems, like a guniea pig being fed plutonium, it can't be as benign or sustainable as low dose caffeine. A couple years ago I may have joined a group buy, but now it seems risky and I'd rather stick to more proven means, whole plant foods.

Probably all these people should curb their enthusiasm, and wait for mouse studies, as many of these compounds if not harmful, will prove completely useless, not helping or harming anyone's health. So why waste the money and run the risk? They look to things like 7,8-dihydroxyflavone and Dihexa to cure for dementia and depression, C60 for general aging...great if they work and are proven, but they're not proven and won't be proven until there are controlled studies on humans & mice.

 

 

 

 

[1]There was a finding that guarana caused or may have exacerbate mitral valve prolapse and caused a death. [2]Mitral valve prolapse is a magnesium deficiency and caffeine depletes magnesium (afaik). Of course guarana is a stronger source of caffeine than coffee is, but just proves there's a connection. If you do a google search there are information out there saying coffee is not really good for the heart. Arrythmias and palpitations may lead to mitral valve prolapse, who knows. I'm sure this is dose dependent. [3]It does something to the brain as well.

 

I know all you coffee lovers would disagree. It's like telling a crackhead cocaine is bad for you, she would disagree. [4]I do miss caffeine, it's only been 2 days since I'm off it. Like I said I'm only experimenting for a week without it. I'm already craving it. i'm not here to change your mind or make you agree with me.

 

[5]Caffeine being anxiolytic is new to me. [6]It's opposite of that considering your heart is pounding and you're "alert" ready to fight whatever the day brings you. Far from an anxiolytic. That study may have been paid for by the yuppies who own Starbuck's stocks or Dunkin Donut's stock.

[1] That's guano, er Guarana. And you said it caused ONE death? That's a wealth of evidence to pool from, chief. Consider caffeine causes thousands of deaths every year related to arrhythmia, now that's a wealth of evidence.

 

[2] Mitrial prolapse is not the same thing as magnesium deficiency. Some prolapses may be seriously exacerbated by a magnesium deficiency, if that's the case one should increase dietary intake of magnesium. Magnesium, along with potassium, calcium and vitamin D, is one of the most difficult nutrients to obtain in sufficiency from one's diet without supplementation, and in vegans this is also true of B12; a survey found that less than 1 out of 4 Americans obtained the RDA for magnesium on a daily basis. Good sources of magnesium include pepitas (250mg/100g), boiled quinoa (60mg/100g), boiled brown rice (40mg/100g) & boiled beans (80mg/100g), boiled spinach (80mg/100g), and bananas (30mg/100g). To further aid absorption, don't consume other healthy foods, for example calcium sources, with your magnesium source, give it preference for a whole meal, once a day, allowing the magnesium adaquete time to absorb. "Frequent consumption of alcohol, coffee, food components ie, phytates [beans], phosphorous, fiber, saturated fats, tannins[fruits], polyphenols [tea] can block or decrease mineral absorption." In short, you may have to supplement magnesium, or stuff your face with only the finest foods.

 

[3] Such a precise statement, chief.

 

[4]Only two days? Only planning to abstain for a week, then you're reverting to addiction denial and being a caffeine-head? Do as you please, chief.

 

[5]Perhaps isolated caffeine is more adaptogenic than anxiolytic. The studies with theanine and caffeine though clearly demonstrate a significant  anxiolytic effect, that's multiple studies verified and reproduced, multiple universities, different funding sources...hard to deny. Some extremely sharp witted yuppies indeed: "The aim of this study was to compare 50 mg caffeine, with and without 100 mg L-theanine, on cognition and mood in healthy volunteers. The effects of these treatments on word recognition, rapid visual information processing, critical flicker fusion threshold, attention switching and mood were compared to placebo in 27 participants. Performance was measured at baseline and again 60 min and 90 min after each treatment (separated by a 7-day washout). Caffeine improved subjective alertness at 60 min and accuracy on the attention-switching task at 90 min. The L-theanine and caffeine combination improved both speed and accuracy of performance of the attention-switching task at 60 min, and reduced susceptibility to distracting information in the memory task at both 60 min and 90 min. These results replicate previous evidence which suggests that L-theanine and caffeine in combination are beneficial for improving performance on cognitively demanding tasks."

 

[6]Caffeine is bad for the heart you say? A study of 40,530 Japanese adults found that participants who drank more than five cups of tea a day had a 26% lower risk of heart attack or stroke than those who drank less than one cup of tea a day. Cheers.

 

 

Edited by eon, 25 November 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

are you saying coffee's caffeine does not deplete magnesium? I thought I read that it does. Mitral Valve Prolapse is a magnesium deficiency. Before I became a coffee or tea drinker I was fine, no mitral valve prolapse diagnosis. After I had my anxiety/panic attack considering it affects the heart (tachycardia), I had a mitral valve prolapse diagnosis. Even then I never looked into caffeine (or coffee) as the source. I never supplemented with any vitamin then as well which is probably why I may have been depleted of magnesium. I am fine now though since I supplement with magnesium glycinate. But as the title of the thread implies, caffeine (or coffee) may have been the big elephant in the room that people missed out. I started drinking coffee in my teens as a way to stay awake because every teens are sleep deprived as I was. Big mistake. I think those instant coffee that I used to drink I may have used a bit much of it instead of a tiny teaspoon I may have used a big tablespoon at 2-3 cups a day. That may have been my mistake. It never really made me stay up considering how fatigued I got after such consumption. It was a long time ago so I can't remember how much really I was using. There was a caffeine powder death a while ago when the person consumed a teaspoon or tablespoon of it when it should have been measured using a gram scale. I'm sure that person thought it will make him/her be superman for a day. Remember caffeine is a drug.

 

I'm not here to make anyone stop drinking Starbucks coffee nor am I complete stopping caffeine intake (only when needed) but I feel my opinions and thread has validity despite people already calling me ill informed, etc.

 

http://www.caffeinei...cts-of-caffeine

 

By the way, chocolate never made me feel jittery. I wish I could afford a kilo of chocolate a week. Know any company who sells them bulk? I prefer the 90% dark chocolate which Lindt sells. What is c60oo?

 

So the relationship between caffeine and MVP is complex. I'm not sure about the caffeine-magnesium connection, but that would only complicate things further. On the one hand people with MVPS (mitral valve prolapse syndrome) do not tolerate caffeine (or chocolate) well, for the most part; this might be due to a common genetic cause of the intolerance and also the valve abnormality. But from a purely mechanical perspective, the increase in heart rate caused by caffeine is only going to increase valve stress, and thus exacerbate MVP. Then again, the improved heart muscle tone (due to de facto cardio exercise) might more than compensate for this increased stress. So the bottom line is that caffeine and MVP and MVPS are intimately related, but the nature of the relationship is unclear; published studies might be informative, but given that MVPS is generally considered a bogus diagnosis along the lines of chronic fatigue syndrome, I don't expect much from academia in this vein.

 

BTW I do not believe that MVP is due to a magnesium defficiency, just because magnesium glycinate relieves its symptoms, anymore than I believe that headache is due to an aspirin defficiency. I think it's more about genetics and perhaps subclinical congenital malformation of the valve which only becomes detectable over a long period of time. Caffeine could potentially accelerate the manifestation of this dysfunction, just like driving your car in first gear all the time will over-rev the engine and cause more rapid breakdown. Fortunately, minimally invasive valve repair is commonplace and is often done with the Dante surgical robot.

 

There are many organic and fair-trade high-end chocolatiers present on the Internet, some of which specializing in ultradark or bulk supply, so have a Google. Decaffeinated chocolate, on the other hand, is hard to find; if you search for it, then be aware of "water process" decaffeination vs. other options.

 

c60oo is, IMO, Longecity's crowning achievement in crowd-sourced drug trials. It's so awesome that it has its own private forum over here.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 26 November 2014 - 02:54 AM.

[eon]

Well it's been over 2 weeks without me drinking caffeinated drinks. Other than the 100% dark chocolates I eat which I think has some trace amount of caffeine then again I do not eat these by the cup. I feel great making it to 2 weeks without the teas or mocha frappes.

 

Anyway, what could be Paul Erdos' choice of amphetamine? We could only speculate. I don't know much about his story.

[gamesguru]

Dark chocolate, per 28g, 12mg Caffeine. Yes, not very much.
20mg Benzedrine, which he began taking aged 58, shortly after his mother's death, at the recommendation of a doctor.

 

How long have you been taking vinpocetine? See this thread: http://www.longecity...etine-ditch-it/.

Also from Wikipedia:

Increases in neuronal levels of DOPAC, a metabolic breakdown product of dopamine, have been shown to occur in striatal isolated nerve endings as a result of exposure to vinpocetine.^[17] Such an effect is consistent with the biogenic pharmacology of reserpine, a structural relative of vinpocetine, which depletes catecholamine levels and causes depression as a side effect of the cardiovascular and anti-psychotic effects.^[17] However, this effect tends to be reversible upon cessation of Vinpocetine administration, with full remission typically occurring within 3–4 weeks.

 

1. Yes caffeine exacerbates arrhythmias, people with severe arrhythmias should go decaf. The polyphenols/catechins in the tea on their own, won't cause the arrhythmias; they are good for the heart. Probably in people with only mild arrhythmias, regular tea is fine; the amount of caffeine in tea is too small, and the cardioprotective effect of the polyphenols is too great for the net effect to be harmful.

 

5. Try some gyokuro, it's high in theanine, or some hojicha, it's low in caffeine.
 

6. The study was comparing Japanese who drank less tea to Japanese who drank more tea. A Japanese man with a 4% risk of heart disease went to 3%, just by drinking tea. How did he start at 4%, in short because of a healthy culture; friendly neighbors, good diet, and an active lifestyle...all the things that give him a longer lifespan than the average American.

The cultural variables were controlled among participants, only the amount of tea drinking was varied. Likewise this study finds that among a sample of French people, those who drank the most tea had a 24% lower risk of heart disease compared to those who drank none.

Probably the reason you don't see a study involving American participants is very few people drink tea, and so it's more difficult to enlist enough participants, though I can't use this excuse to explain the conspicuous absence of a British study.

 

7. I only drink tea, water, orange juice, and the occasional grassfed milk. Haven't drank anything else in 12+months.

Edited by dasheenster, 11 December 2014 - 08:17 PM.

[eon]

I've used vinpocetine off and on. It works for headaches when I was on phosphatidyl serine. It's a great vasodilator and other things. Gives me great pumps in the gym. Not everyone will like it just like with caffeine. By the way, the caffeine in the tea yerba mate seems cleaner than anything caffeinated. I do not know why this is. I could feel my heart beat fast on those sweet tea from McDonald's but not with Yerba Mate. Strange.

 

The people that did not like vinpocetine either aren't following the suggested use or they got a bunk bulk powder. I have the capsule version from Dr. Vita 10mg. I've used as much as 40mg per day.