32 replies to this topic

[forexworld12]

I have been taking mirtazapine 7.5 mg from a week and . it helps me sleep but i do wake up to pee 2 times at night ...the next morning I am feeling very drowsy and sleepy .

 

so I switched to 15mg mirtazapine - this dosage gives me drowsiness + severe brain bog 

 

I have read 30 mg mirtazapine is less sedative and more of an antidepressant ---- is this true ?

 

My trail goal  is to antagonize the serotonin receptors for a sex drive/libido increase + reduce Ahnedonia.

come on guys no one has any exp with mirtazapine dosage ? 

[Al Capacino]

Mirtazapine was a great motivating anti depressant and anti anxiety for me.
I took it 15 mg for a week then moved up to 30 then eventually 45mg. The higher the dosage the better the anti depressant effect. I never really shook off the sedative effect though which was the main downside for me. But I was a machine at work, so motivated then I started working out, running and even teaching myself to modify my car! I swear it has some nootropic effects, I always knew what to say whereas in baseline and on most other antidepressants my mind is constantly blank and reactive rather than proactive.

I strongly suggest you give it a good try. I was supposed to go up to 60mg but I was not getting on with my fiancee at the time as I felt quite unemotional so stopped...then I quit my job and to this day I still wonder if I should give it another bash. I was so confident on it. But being sedated isn't really living is it? I don't know.

On another note robin Williams was taking mirtazapine when he died! I admit I did sometimes have more suicidal ideation on it too.

But to answer ur question, higher dosage is where you feel the antidepressant effect stronger

[forexworld12]

Thanks man ..I was actually hoping for a better answer to be true 

 

did you notice less sedation on the higher dosage ? and did you notice a sex drive increase .........It's quite weird your were unemotional as mirtazapine blocks serotonin receptors so it should have let dopamine flow into various areas of the brain and give back emotions . It might be the dopamine is down-regulated ?

 

I was on 2 ssri's that persistently desensitized the serotonin receptor even after quitting it so now more serotonin is flowing into various other area's of the brain and so my libido was gone and still is after 2 years .... and also my dopamine is downregulated that gave me ahnedonia (excessive porn and after ejactuation 3 times in a row - everything swtiched off)

 

I am looking to block Most serotonin receptor esp the 5htia , 5ht2c and 5ht2a so that it can get to pre ssri state and let other major transmitter like dopamine flow freely ... my serotonin receptor are desensitized and to much of it is flowing around .. I would guess antagonism of mirtazapine at serotonin receptor should have brought back libido ..

 

any other exp guys ?

[datrat]

I'm on mirtazapine and agree with Al C. higher doses are far more stimulating. For me, 30 mgs actually increased my anxiety so I couldn't use it as a stand alone AD. I've never had any suicidal ideation on it though. It's really not all that great as a 5ht antagonist, except on the 5ht1a receptor, probably one of the reasons it made me more anxious. You might have to look at something with a stronger binding profile at 5th2a and 2c to get the effect you want. A very low dose ( 1-4 mgs) of trazadone would really be effective for 5ht2a antagonism.

[forexworld12]

Thanks darat ....

 

any suggestion of  stronger 5HT - 2A,2C,1A  antagonism or a combination of drugs !

[Mind_Paralysis]

My experience with Mirtazapine isn't very good, I must say.

 

But I don't just have recurring Anhedonia, I have ADHD-PI as well, with commorbid anxiety. My problems may not be your problems.

 

Do you have problems with anxiety as well? If so, DON'T use Mirtazapine! The norepinephrine on-set that it stimulates started getting a cumulative effect, and when I used it with a stimulant I got something that I can only describe as "norepinephrine-syndrom" and basically had a panic-attack.

 

If you don't have dysfunction in your norepinephrine-system, and anxiety-issues, then upping the norepinephrine-levels in your brain is going to more or less fry your entire system.

 

Why not try something entirely different than your traditional anti-depressants for your problem? I'm thinking a regimen of NSI-189 might be beneficial - perhaps combine it with some Fasoracetam, to get back some of that mental clarity. It's got a mild anti-depressant effect as well - theoretically it has to do with the fact that it's a potent gaba-agonist.

[forexworld12]

Ya, heard NSI-189 does neuroregression in the brain .... well that might be a great thing but i don't see it up-reguating dopamine in any way or provide antagonism at serotonin receptor !

[Area-1255]

Thanks darat ....

 

any suggestion of  stronger 5HT - 2A,2C,1A  antagonism or a combination of drugs !

I told ya forex, wouldn't lead ya wrong brother!

 

High doses = receptors for histamine sensitize quicker!

[forexworld12]

 

Thanks darat ....

 

any suggestion of  stronger 5HT - 2A,2C,1A  antagonism or a combination of drugs !

I told ya forex, wouldn't lead ya wrong brother!

 

High doses = receptors for histamine sensitize quicker!

 

ya brother You did ... this was just for information purpose ...

While mirtazapine 7.5 mg makes me sleep but the next day I am very drowsy - 15 mg - I can't get out of the bed next day with severe brain bog so I am kinda worried if 30mg would kill me - lol 

[Al Capacino]

Lol I do get knocked out a bit for next couple days every time you increase dose but it wears off. It's certainly easier to get out of bed On 45mg I found. Sedation does stay with you to some degree like I found I was awful at some sports that relied on my body twisting and turning and fast reactions like football (soccer). One of main reasons I stopped

[Area-1255]

Lol I do get knocked out a bit for next couple days every time you increase dose but it wears off. It's certainly easier to get out of bed On 45mg I found. Sedation does stay with you to some degree like I found I was awful at some sports that relied on my body twisting and turning and fast reactions like football (soccer). One of main reasons I stopped

This is my experience as well, but you add pitolisant and this effect goes away ...you just have to modulate the dosage better to make the two work with each other.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Forexworld: Why do you need upregulating of dopamine? Are you an ADHD-sufferer as well?

The reason I suggested NSI-189 is because I assumed you needed some info on how to get better from depression, and it does help with depression - it helps your brain recover from the "virus" that is depression, it helps you get back the gray-matter that you lose from depression, and hence, your brain gets better at recovering from the challenge of depression.

 

But if you need some dopamine-action as well, then maybe try and get some Strattera on subscription - BUT...! Combine it with Intuniv! = ) Yes, I know, both of them are primarily used as adhd-drugs, but they both have potential anti-depressant effects.

 

Intuniv primarily works on the Alpha-2 adrenal receptors, and help lower cAMP - BUT, they also seem to, ( therefore? Not a 100% on this one...) block Norepinephrine -action in the brain, to some extent. = ) The result is far less side-effects when used in conjunction with stimulants. It might help to block the norepinephrine in atomoxetine, and allow the weak dopamine-effect to be more pronounced.

 

Intuniv is also a potent 5-ht2b agonist, it would appear, so you'll be getting some of that action as well. I know you want to antagonise instead of agonise, in order to reset your receptors, but I imagine since Atomoxetine and Intuniv is so different from SSRI's, that they might be an alternative, in order to get back in the grove, so to speak.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 30 November 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[Al Capacino]

Lol I do get knocked out a bit for next couple days every time you increase dose but it wears off. It's certainly easier to get out of bed On 45mg I found. Sedation does stay with you to some degree like I found I was awful at some sports that relied on my body twisting and turning and fast reactions like football (soccer). One of main reasons I stopped

This is my experience as well, but you add pitolisant and this effect goes away ...you just have to modulate the dosage better to make the two work with each other.

Where do you buy pitolisant from? I bought some from tht.co but I felt nothing from taking it. Funnily enough I bought nsi 189 and bpap from tht aswell and felt nothing from any of it. I've had nsi from another retailer which did have noticeable effects and it didn't match the smell or taste or effects of tht so I'm convinced tht is fake.

I've tried modafinil but it's pretty heavy hangover on the days I fancy a rest from it and it messes up my sleeping pattern

[forexworld12]

Forexworld: Why do you need upregulating of dopamine? Are you an ADHD-sufferer as well?

The reason I suggested NSI-189 is because I assumed you needed some info on how to get better from depression, and it does help with depression - it helps your brain recover from the "virus" that is depression, it helps you get back the gray-matter that you lose from depression, and hence, your brain gets better at recovering from the challenge of depression.

 

But if you need some dopamine-action as well, then maybe try and get some Strattera on subscription - BUT...! Combine it with Intuniv! = ) Yes, I know, both of them are primarily used as adhd-drugs, but they both have potential anti-depressant effects.

 

Intuniv primarily works on the Alpha-2 adrenal receptors, and help lower cAMP - BUT, they also seem to, ( therefore? Not a 100% on this one...) block Norepinephrine -action in the brain, to some extent. = ) The result is far less side-effects when used in conjunction with stimulants. It might help to block the norepinephrine in atomoxetine, and allow the weak dopamine-effect to be more pronounced.

Hi stinkorninjor -I have read NSI-189 gives back emotions and happy feelings .. maybe it does have some up-regulation type effect on dopamine but undiscovered ..

 

I suffered persistent dead libido even after staying clean of SSRI's so one day (after 11 months) in frustration   I was watching excessive porn just like that and masturbated 3 times in a row - the 3rd time I ejacuated - BOOM every emotion just turned off  I could feel it go away and I went into major depression ... but this time with No emotion - I can feel nothing ... so basically I overstimulated my dopamine receptor which led to = downregulation . My serotonin receptors are persistently desensitized after 2 ssri's use and now my dopamine got down-regulated as well ... this is one reason why wellbutrin didin't have any effect at all ..

 

Hmm thanks for the suggesion , really appreciate it ..

[Area-1255]

 

 

Lol I do get knocked out a bit for next couple days every time you increase dose but it wears off. It's certainly easier to get out of bed On 45mg I found. Sedation does stay with you to some degree like I found I was awful at some sports that relied on my body twisting and turning and fast reactions like football (soccer). One of main reasons I stopped

This is my experience as well, but you add pitolisant and this effect goes away ...you just have to modulate the dosage better to make the two work with each other.

Where do you buy pitolisant from? I bought some from tht.co but I felt nothing from taking it. Funnily enough I bought nsi 189 and bpap from tht aswell and felt nothing from any of it. I've had nsi from another retailer which did have noticeable effects and it didn't match the smell or taste or effects of tht so I'm convinced tht is fake.

I've tried modafinil but it's pretty heavy hangover on the days I fancy a rest from it and it messes up my sleeping pattern

 

From transhuman, I noticed on pitolisant, my racing thoughts decreased a bit - presumably because of an enhancement of histamine activity on GABAergic neurons and a reduction of glutamate by histamine.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Forexworld12: Sounds to me like you've beaten your brain pretty hard.

If we are to come up with a strategy here, I imagine it's going to take some pretty long-term planning.

All right... how does this sound?

1. Resistance-training
2. Dopamine-building supplements
3. Serotonin-building supplements
4. Neuro-regenerative nootropics
5. Out-doors vacation to kick it all off

 

Basically, my idea is that you enter a whole new environment for a few weeks, where you mainly work on yourself - you build up your body and mind there - preferrably in a quiet, safe, out-doors environment.
Perhaps you know someone who has a cabin you can borrow? Some sort of simpler home. There, you will take NSI-189, and other neuro-regenerative drugs, as well as supplement quite a bit. You will go out into the woods around this location, and exercise HARD!

 

All in all, this regimen, should help your brain - it should improve SOME of it. It should kick-start all sorts of processes.

 

Motivation might be difficult - seek help from various family-members and friends - see if someone is feeling mentally ill in some way as well - they might be interested in joining you on this "resort" - and together you might be able to help each other.

 

Social systems is the key to human survival - it's the basis of human evolutionary success. With others, there is nothing you can't achieve.

 

This forum is proof of this.

 

 

Now then, what say you of this proposal? And if you approve of the idea, shall we help you to prepare?

Gents: What serotonin and dopamine building -blocks should he supplement with? What training-exercises, which are simple and easy to perform without equipment, should he be doing? And what neuro-regenerative compounds are there?

 

( my main idea with neuro-regeneratives, is that the brain is in general quite good at compensating for effed up systems, but when your entire global system has tons of damage, compensating for certain systems, such as receptor-fatigue, is much more difficult then when the rest of the system is in good shape. So, by repairing lots of other systems in the brain artificially, via NSI-189, the brain will build up system-redundancy once more, and his brain will be able to restore its faulty receptors faster, than without neuro-regenerative drugs. )

[forexworld12]

Forexworld12: Sounds to me like you've beaten your brain pretty hard.

If we are to come up with a strategy here, I imagine it's going to take some pretty long-term planning.

All right... how does this sound?

1. Resistance-training
2. Dopamine-building supplements
3. Serotonin-building supplements
4. Neuro-regenerative nootropics
5. Out-doors vacation to kick it all off

 

Basically, my idea is that you enter a whole new environment for a few weeks, where you mainly work on yourself - you build up your body and mind there - preferrably in a quiet, safe, out-doors environment.
Perhaps you know someone who has a cabin you can borrow? Some sort of simpler home. There, you will take NSI-189, and other neuro-regenerative drugs, as well as supplement quite a bit. You will go out into the woods around this location, and exercise HARD!

 

All in all, this regimen, should help your brain - it should improve SOME of it. It should kick-start all sorts of processes.

 

Motivation might be difficult - seek help from various family-members and friends - see if someone is feeling mentally ill in some way as well - they might be interested in joining you on this "resort" - and together you might be able to help each other.

 

Social systems is the key to human survival - it's the basis of human evolutionary success. With others, there is nothing you can't achieve.

 

This forum is proof of this.

 

 

Now then, what say you of this proposal? And if you approve of the idea, shall we help you to prepare?

Gents: What serotonin and dopamine building -blocks should he supplement with? What training-exercises, which are simple and easy to perform without equipment, should he be doing? And what neuro-regenerative compounds are there?

 

( my main idea with neuro-regeneratives, is that the brain is in general quite good at compensating for effed up systems, but when your entire global system has tons of damage, compensating for certain systems, such as receptor-fatigue, is much more difficult then when the rest of the system is in good shape. So, by repairing lots of other systems in the brain artificially, via NSI-189, the brain will build up system-redundancy once more, and his brain will be able to restore its faulty receptors faster, than without neuro-regenerative drugs. )

Hey stinkorninjor .. Thanks a lot for the help man , really appreciate it .....

 

First of all I don't exercise at all , I'm obese ,my eating was crap and just oily and fatty food ... I have just been eating healthy since 2 weeks and got my hormones tests done on advice by area-1255  ... after ssri's and anti-psyhotic use . here are some reports - 

 

SHBG -     7.2  nmol/l                                        Normal levels -   15 - 48.4 nmol/l

 

Morning Cortisol -    7.54 ug/dl                          Normal levels -     6.2 - 19.4  ug/dl   

 

Estrodiol (E2) /Oestrogen -    31.20 pg/ml         Normal level -  (Adult male -  0 - 32 pg/ml)  

 

free testosterone  -   5.18 pg/ml                         Normal level -  4.30 - 32 pg/ml               

 

Prolactin -        18.88  ng/ml                                Normal level -  2.1 - 17 ng/ml

 

Evening Cortisol -   8.50 ug/dl                             Normal range ---- 2.3 - 11 ug/dl  

 

So as you can see according to my age which is 20 My estrogen is too high , my prolactin is High as well , my SHBG is too low and my free testosterone is very Low too . So basically most important things are fucked up and this is coming from the desentiszation of serotonin and dopamine receptor and previous ssri's and anti-psychotic use ... this is only 33% part of why I have persistent PSSD - low libido , numb penis - the other 2 requires fxixing of serotonin and dopamine 

 

Now what I am basically doing is from 2 weeks I have been on a healthy diet with some failures ! I have an appointment with an endocrinologist after tomorrow so hopefully he can prescribe me arimidex and a few other for getting hormones in control and boosting testo and bringing it up to a very high level ( maybe clomid)

 

There's a park nearby so I am planning to wake up every morning and do a running + jogging there(more effective than treadmill ) .. then I am going to do various kinds of intense cardio exercises 

 

Exercise modulates + up-regulates dopamine receptors and various other neurotransmitter  ( I'm a smoker so i'll just try to quit slowly)

 

http://www.reuniting.info/node/7200

http://www.jneurosci...27/20/5291.full

www.mdpi.com/2076-3425/3/1/39/pdf

 

Supplements like Vitamin B multiplex , Vitamin A ,C D and E and others 

 

Supplements that are known to regulate -> up-regulate -> enhance and increase Dopamine in different part of the brain are - Magnesium, Zinc, Inositol, forskolin , Rhodiola Rosea, Vitamin D, Curcumin,B12,B9,B6,Green tea

 

Some other supplements that can overall benefit dopamine and hormones in general - Ginko biloba ,Tongkat Ali, Maca, Horny goat weed - 50% icariin , Panax ginseng, tribulus , american ginseng, muira puama

 

These substance deplete serotonin and enhance dopamine signalling - Shilajit , vitex , ginko biloba 

 

Nootropic's that are known to do Up-regulate dopamine Long term -   phenylpiracetam,sulbutiamine,cdp-choline,uridine,Piracetam 

 

Drugs -  Tianeptine,NDMA antagonist, Low dose - amisulpride (Problem is it elevates prolactin), Selegiline , mianserin http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8741935

 

I am considering some of the above in combination with intense exercise and good diet !

 

this would end phase 2 - Phase 3 - I would need to totally block the serotonin receptors - any  natural recommendations ?

Edited by forexworld12, 01 December 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Forexworld12: That sounds great! = ) It's good to see that you've got a plan here - these are some solid actions you are about to take. What I would recommend is not only cardio-training, but a little bit of resistance, muscle-building training as well - a few push-ups, a few sit-ups, and so on.

And it doesn't have to be much, just a topper on your other training - it will balance things out pretty well.

 

All right, let's have a look at Serotonin antagonists now...

I found some articles claiming that the serotonin 5-ht-1b -receptors are involved with addiction, and that there is some ideas that blocking them might be a good strategy while weening patients off various drugs.

https://www.scripps....9/parsons2.html

SO! Perhaps we'll look at blocking that receptor to start with, yeah? I also figure, you could do the blocking in a very... soft way. Use many different compounds, but only small amounts, and cycle them often.

 

Like, 4 days on this antagonist, then 4 days on a completely different antagonist. Basically, you exercise your serotonin-receptors, by blocking them slightly, a few receptors at a time - thereby the brain won't get used to having that perticular receptor permanently blocked - instead it will be trying to upregulate different receptors in intervals - 5-ht-1b here, then 5ht-2c here, etc.

 

And I don't think you need to antagonize EVERY serotonin-receptor - there is apparently quite a few of them, and not all of them appear to be related to your issues - to mood, addiction, and down-regulation.

 

 

SO! Here's a few compounds that antagonize different receptors - I tried picking receptors that affected sexuality and penile erection, since that is at the core of your issues.

 

 

5-HT_1A - Lecozotan

A drug currently under research for treating alzheimers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecozotan

 

5-HT_2A ,5-HT_2C- Nefazodone

Nefazodone is dangerous to the liver, however, that is with prolonged use, and you're not supposed to use it for more than a few days at a time. If you cycle it accordingly, and go low-dose, then there shouldn't be any problems.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Nefazodone

 

5-HT_1B, 5-HT_1D, 5-HT_2A, 5-HT_2B, Yohimbine

Now... you need to think very carefully about Yohimbine, because it's pretty dangerous stuff, but - it really does work for sexual dysfunction, and it antagonises a ton, ton, ton of receptors. It doesn't just antagonise serotonin, but Dopamine as well. BUT, it's main mode of effect is on a completely different receptor - it antagonises the Alpha-2 adrenal receptors. Use with extreme caution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohimbine

 

5-HT_2A,5-HT_2B, 5-HT_2C  Cyproheptadine

Another "magic bullet" - with quite a few side-effects, but not quite as dangerous as Yohimbine, it doesn't tax the liver for instance. It antagonises a WIIIDE range of receptors, simmilar to Yohimbine, so use with caution. It's actually an old first-gen antihistamine allergy-pill, with some DAMN strong effects - it's even got local anaestethic properties, and used as such on animals.

 

5-HT_2C Agomelatine

An old friend of mine! Fantastic for the first week or so, and then the brain very quickly adapts, and the effect becomes more or less nill, once more. You can only use this one IN-BETWEEN every other drug, since the build-up of tolerance is super-fast. It's the go-to drug in this list when it comes to side-effects tho' - fantastic in that regard, damn near perfect. The anti-depressant effect is quite small tho', but that doesn't matter much in this case - the general idea is to use it as a weening -off between these other compounds. Only use it for one day at a time.

When I first tried it, the effect of the 5-ht-2c antagonism was incredible - it disinhibited my dopamine and norepinephrine, resulting in DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED SLEEP, DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED MOOD, and a dramatic lessening of ADHD-PI symptoms - I've rarely felt as happy or productive as I was those first two days on Agomelatine. But then tolerance will hit you... and the drug becomes nearly useless. It's effects taper off so fast, that it's hard to even explain it clearly - the effect WILL hit you nearly immediately - the day after administration you will feel the effect, but unlike SSRI's, it will then FALL immediately afterwards.

 

 

Can't quite find any perticular natural compounds that antagonize Serotonin - the closest thing I can imagine is deathly FEAR! A friend of mine had lost all will to live, when her first husband died, but a friend of hers wouldn't have none of it - instead he took her out into the South-African outback ( that's where they're from, SA), and forced her to meet all of the biggest and most fearsome of the animals on the savanna, for days!

 

When they were done - she had recovered her will to live! = D The effect was one of drastic environmental change, and extreme, unexpected duress - the result was that her entire brain started reorganizing itself, and because of the new functions it had to develop, the old damage began to heal.

 

Now... I'm not sure how... enticing that sounds - short-burst intense FEAR isn't exactly a preferrable method of treatment - but my thinking with the environmental change is similar - do something very different from what you normally do, while you try to get better.

 

 

[Area-1255]

Forexworld12: That sounds great! = ) It's good to see that you've got a plan here - these are some solid actions you are about to take. What I would recommend is not only cardio-training, but a little bit of resistance, muscle-building training as well - a few push-ups, a few sit-ups, and so on.

And it doesn't have to be much, just a topper on your other training - it will balance things out pretty well.

 

All right, let's have a look at Serotonin antagonists now...

I found some articles claiming that the serotonin 5-ht-1b -receptors are involved with addiction, and that there is some ideas that blocking them might be a good strategy while weening patients off various drugs.

https://www.scripps....9/parsons2.html

SO! Perhaps we'll look at blocking that receptor to start with, yeah? I also figure, you could do the blocking in a very... soft way. Use many different compounds, but only small amounts, and cycle them often.

 

Like, 4 days on this antagonist, then 4 days on a completely different antagonist. Basically, you exercise your serotonin-receptors, by blocking them slightly, a few receptors at a time - thereby the brain won't get used to having that perticular receptor permanently blocked - instead it will be trying to upregulate different receptors in intervals - 5-ht-1b here, then 5ht-2c here, etc.

 

And I don't think you need to antagonize EVERY serotonin-receptor - there is apparently quite a few of them, and not all of them appear to be related to your issues - to mood, addiction, and down-regulation.

 

 

SO! Here's a few compounds that antagonize different receptors - I tried picking receptors that affected sexuality and penile erection, since that is at the core of your issues.

 

 

5-HT_1A - Lecozotan

A drug currently under research for treating alzheimers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecozotan

 

5-HT_2A ,5-HT_2C- Nefazodone

Nefazodone is dangerous to the liver, however, that is with prolonged use, and you're not supposed to use it for more than a few days at a time. If you cycle it accordingly, and go low-dose, then there shouldn't be any problems.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Nefazodone

 

5-HT_1B, 5-HT_1D, 5-HT_2A, 5-HT_2B, Yohimbine

Now... you need to think very carefully about Yohimbine, because it's pretty dangerous stuff, but - it really does work for sexual dysfunction, and it antagonises a ton, ton, ton of receptors. It doesn't just antagonise serotonin, but Dopamine as well. BUT, it's main mode of effect is on a completely different receptor - it antagonises the Alpha-2 adrenal receptors. Use with extreme caution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohimbine

 

5-HT_2A,5-HT_2B, 5-HT_2C  Cyproheptadine

Another "magic bullet" - with quite a few side-effects, but not quite as dangerous as Yohimbine, it doesn't tax the liver for instance. It antagonises a WIIIDE range of receptors, simmilar to Yohimbine, so use with caution. It's actually an old first-gen antihistamine allergy-pill, with some DAMN strong effects - it's even got local anaestethic properties, and used as such on animals.

 

5-HT_2C Agomelatine

An old friend of mine! Fantastic for the first week or so, and then the brain very quickly adapts, and the effect becomes more or less nill, once more. You can only use this one IN-BETWEEN every other drug, since the build-up of tolerance is super-fast. It's the go-to drug in this list when it comes to side-effects tho' - fantastic in that regard, damn near perfect. The anti-depressant effect is quite small tho', but that doesn't matter much in this case - the general idea is to use it as a weening -off between these other compounds. Only use it for one day at a time.

When I first tried it, the effect of the 5-ht-2c antagonism was incredible - it disinhibited my dopamine and norepinephrine, resulting in DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED SLEEP, DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED MOOD, and a dramatic lessening of ADHD-PI symptoms - I've rarely felt as happy or productive as I was those first two days on Agomelatine. But then tolerance will hit you... and the drug becomes nearly useless. It's effects taper off so fast, that it's hard to even explain it clearly - the effect WILL hit you nearly immediately - the day after administration you will feel the effect, but unlike SSRI's, it will then FALL immediately afterwards.

 

 

Can't quite find any perticular natural compounds that antagonize Serotonin - the closest thing I can imagine is deathly FEAR! A friend of mine had lost all will to live, when her first husband died, but a friend of hers wouldn't have none of it - instead he took her out into the South-African outback ( that's where they're from, SA), and forced her to meet all of the biggest and most fearsome of the animals on the savanna, for days!

 

When they were done - she had recovered her will to live! = D The effect was one of drastic environmental change, and extreme, unexpected duress - the result was that her entire brain started reorganizing itself, and because of the new functions it had to develop, the old damage began to heal.

 

Now... I'm not sure how... enticing that sounds - short-burst intense FEAR isn't exactly a preferrable method of treatment - but my thinking with the environmental change is similar - do something very different from what you normally do, while you try to get better.

I agree with most of this post, but cyproheptadine is more controversial, it also antagonizes histamine h2 receptors which we want to keep around for cognitive function and for proper libido as well. Also, blocking histamine h2's can lead to psychosis and delirium, as well as unwarranted aggressive behavior ----- not good. In regards to YOHIMBINE, the affinity of yohimbine is defined as 339 nm for human D2R 's, that means that it is unlikely there will be a significant dopamine blockade property, and this can be easily beaten with almost any other dopamine agonist, if the affinity for d2 receptors by yohimbine were less than 200, then I'd be concerned..but think about it this way, if yohimbine is an aphrodisiac, but the dopamine blockade was potent, then it wouldn't be an aphrodisiac at all, thus, the affinity, by common sense alone CAN'T BE SIGNIFICANT because it would automatically de-classify it's classification!

[forexworld12]

Forexworld12: That sounds great! = ) It's good to see that you've got a plan here - these are some solid actions you are about to take. What I would recommend is not only cardio-training, but a little bit of resistance, muscle-building training as well - a few push-ups, a few sit-ups, and so on.

And it doesn't have to be much, just a topper on your other training - it will balance things out pretty well.

 

All right, let's have a look at Serotonin antagonists now...

I found some articles claiming that the serotonin 5-ht-1b -receptors are involved with addiction, and that there is some ideas that blocking them might be a good strategy while weening patients off various drugs.

https://www.scripps....9/parsons2.html

SO! Perhaps we'll look at blocking that receptor to start with, yeah? I also figure, you could do the blocking in a very... soft way. Use many different compounds, but only small amounts, and cycle them often.

 

Like, 4 days on this antagonist, then 4 days on a completely different antagonist. Basically, you exercise your serotonin-receptors, by blocking them slightly, a few receptors at a time - thereby the brain won't get used to having that perticular receptor permanently blocked - instead it will be trying to upregulate different receptors in intervals - 5-ht-1b here, then 5ht-2c here, etc.

 

And I don't think you need to antagonize EVERY serotonin-receptor - there is apparently quite a few of them, and not all of them appear to be related to your issues - to mood, addiction, and down-regulation.

 

 

SO! Here's a few compounds that antagonize different receptors - I tried picking receptors that affected sexuality and penile erection, since that is at the core of your issues.

 

 

5-HT_1A - Lecozotan

A drug currently under research for treating alzheimers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecozotan

 

5-HT_2A ,5-HT_2C- Nefazodone

Nefazodone is dangerous to the liver, however, that is with prolonged use, and you're not supposed to use it for more than a few days at a time. If you cycle it accordingly, and go low-dose, then there shouldn't be any problems.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Nefazodone

 

5-HT_1B, 5-HT_1D, 5-HT_2A, 5-HT_2B, Yohimbine

Now... you need to think very carefully about Yohimbine, because it's pretty dangerous stuff, but - it really does work for sexual dysfunction, and it antagonises a ton, ton, ton of receptors. It doesn't just antagonise serotonin, but Dopamine as well. BUT, it's main mode of effect is on a completely different receptor - it antagonises the Alpha-2 adrenal receptors. Use with extreme caution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohimbine

 

5-HT_2A,5-HT_2B, 5-HT_2C  Cyproheptadine

Another "magic bullet" - with quite a few side-effects, but not quite as dangerous as Yohimbine, it doesn't tax the liver for instance. It antagonises a WIIIDE range of receptors, simmilar to Yohimbine, so use with caution. It's actually an old first-gen antihistamine allergy-pill, with some DAMN strong effects - it's even got local anaestethic properties, and used as such on animals.

 

5-HT_2C Agomelatine

An old friend of mine! Fantastic for the first week or so, and then the brain very quickly adapts, and the effect becomes more or less nill, once more. You can only use this one IN-BETWEEN every other drug, since the build-up of tolerance is super-fast. It's the go-to drug in this list when it comes to side-effects tho' - fantastic in that regard, damn near perfect. The anti-depressant effect is quite small tho', but that doesn't matter much in this case - the general idea is to use it as a weening -off between these other compounds. Only use it for one day at a time.

When I first tried it, the effect of the 5-ht-2c antagonism was incredible - it disinhibited my dopamine and norepinephrine, resulting in DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED SLEEP, DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED MOOD, and a dramatic lessening of ADHD-PI symptoms - I've rarely felt as happy or productive as I was those first two days on Agomelatine. But then tolerance will hit you... and the drug becomes nearly useless. It's effects taper off so fast, that it's hard to even explain it clearly - the effect WILL hit you nearly immediately - the day after administration you will feel the effect, but unlike SSRI's, it will then FALL immediately afterwards.

 

 

Can't quite find any perticular natural compounds that antagonize Serotonin - the closest thing I can imagine is deathly FEAR! A friend of mine had lost all will to live, when her first husband died, but a friend of hers wouldn't have none of it - instead he took her out into the South-African outback ( that's where they're from, SA), and forced her to meet all of the biggest and most fearsome of the animals on the savanna, for days!

 

When they were done - she had recovered her will to live! = D The effect was one of drastic environmental change, and extreme, unexpected duress - the result was that her entire brain started reorganizing itself, and because of the new functions it had to develop, the old damage began to heal.

 

Now... I'm not sure how... enticing that sounds - short-burst intense FEAR isn't exactly a preferrable method of treatment - but my thinking with the environmental change is similar - do something very different from what you normally do, while you try to get better.

hey stinkorninjor , thanks for the detailed response man !

 

I don't think The fear stuff will work since i can't "feel" anything ..lol

 

that's the first time I have heard that cycling between antagonist ...

 

Nefazodone looks good and I read - "The incidence of severe liver damage is approximately 1 in every 250,000 to 300,000 patient-years"

 

 

I have heard good things about agomelatine , Heck Some reports says its more potent Than Tianeptine in reversing Ahnedonia , I got a little confused at first since Tianpetine Up-regulates Dopamine receptors D1,D2,D3 and D4 and lowers Serotonin as well but on the other hand agomelatine doesn't do that but it does  Antagonise  5-HT2C receptors that results in an increase of dopamine and norepinephrine activity in the frontal cortex ! ! This would tell us prefrontal cortex has a bigger role than just involved in logical thinking or decision making , or maybe prefrontal cortex coud play a role in signalling and up-regulating other areas of the brain as well

 

TOLERANCE SOUNDS AN ISSUE AND A THING I HATE THE MOST - I WAS SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING THAT WORKS AS LONG AS ONE TAKES IT

 

While yohimbine blocks with moderate or low affinity at a lot of serotonin receptors which Looks excellent but side effects as I read are nasty esp anxiety ... 

 

What do you think about mianserin - something close to mirtazapine ?- Mianserin is an antagonist/inverse agonist of the H1, 5-HT1D, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT3, 5-HT6, 5-HT7,α1-adrenergic, and α2-adrenergic receptors , It also enhances dopamine x6

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8741935

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2424124/

[YoungSchizo]

Is that the only difference between Mirtazapine and Mianserin, that Miaserin enhances dopamine? (interesting drug Mianserin, first time I ever heard/read about it)

[Mind_Paralysis]

Is that the only difference between Mirtazapine and Mianserin, that Miaserin enhances dopamine? (interesting drug Mianserin, first time I ever heard/read about it)

 

No, there appears to be quite a few differences - one notable one being that Mianserin is a POWERFUL Octopamine -agonist. And yeah, I had no idea what octopamine was either, until I read up about it.

Apparently it's a neuro-transmitter with a similar profile to Norepinephrine, but very rare within the mammalian body - it's far more commonly used by the nervous systems of invertebrates, it would seem.

It does exist within our own bodies tho', for instance, once you've used MAOI's, it would appear as if Octopamine -levels increase noticeably.

 

The knowledge of the role of Octopamine in the human body is still in its infancy - and since Mianserin is actually one of the more powerful agonists known, then I would be rather suspicious of it.

It's hard to tell what the side-effects are.

Buuut... on the other hand, Octopamine seems to have a limited role in vertebrate biology, and Mianserin is a legimitate, prescribed anti-depressant here in Europe, so even tho' we don't know much about this perticular effect, there doesn't appear to be too much weighing against it either.

 

And unlike many of the other substances noted here, Mianserin actually appears to be FAIRLY easily obtained.

 

 

Area-1255: What do you think? I actually still believe in the small dosages- high cycling -idea myself, and as such, Mianserin might actually be pretty useful, but the Octopamine side-effect has me a bit doubtful.

[Area-1255]

Honestly I haven't done much research on Octopamine, but it would likely influence ATP transfer/uptake into cells, it also seems to interact with MAPK; mitogen activated protein kinase. Octopamine was used in some fat burners under the above claims, and research supports it in partiality. However, because we don't know what the CNS effects are, we should be careful of the highly complex pathway interactions especially when Caffeine and other chemicals acting through Adensosinergic pathways are being co-employed.

It's a touchy thing, and mianserins kappa opioid agonist properties would have me doubly concerned.

ImHo, either trazodone or mirtazapine are more effective.

Is that the only difference between Mirtazapine and Mianserin, that Miaserin enhances dopamine? (interesting drug Mianserin, first time I ever heard/read about it)

No, there appears to be quite a few differences - one notable one being that Mianserin is a POWERFUL Octopamine -agonist. And yeah, I had no idea what octopamine was either, until I read up about it.

Apparently it's a neuro-transmitter with a similar profile to Norepinephrine, but very rare within the mammalian body - it's far more commonly used by the nervous systems of invertebrates, it would seem.
It does exist within our own bodies tho', for instance, once you've used MAOI's, it would appear as if Octopamine -levels increase noticeably.

The knowledge of the role of Octopamine in the human body is still in its infancy - and since Mianserin is actually one of the more powerful agonists known, then I would be rather suspicious of it.

It's hard to tell what the side-effects are.

Buuut... on the other hand, Octopamine seems to have a limited role in vertebrate biology, and Mianserin is a legimitate, prescribed anti-depressant here in Europe, so even tho' we don't know much about this perticular effect, there doesn't appear to be too much weighing against it either.

And unlike many of the other substances noted here, Mianserin actually appears to be FAIRLY easily obtained.


Area-1255: What do you think? I actually still believe in the small dosages- high cycling -idea myself, and as such, Mianserin might actually be pretty useful, but the Octopamine side-effect has me a bit doubtful.

Edited by Area-1255, 04 December 2014 - 08:15 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

Was just about to type that I'll also have a look into Octopamine but you guys got me covered, thanks.

Since I find Mirtazapine such a clean drug makes me wonder how Mianserin effect is compared to Mirtazapine when taken. I'll have look into Mianserin user experiences.

[forexworld12]

Honestly I haven't done much research on Octopamine, but it would likely influence ATP transfer/uptake into cells, it also seems to interact with MAPK; mitogen activated protein kinase. Octopamine was used in some fat burners under the above claims, and research supports it in partiality. However, because we don't know what the CNS effects are, we should be careful of the highly complex pathway interactions especially when Caffeine and other chemicals acting through Adensosinergic pathways are being co-employed.

It's a touchy thing, and mianserins kappa opioid agonist properties would have me doubly concerned.

ImHo, either trazodone or mirtazapine are more effective!

 

 

Mirtazapine doesn't work for me...ya haven't tried for more than 2 days of use but it was enough to make me give up !! also read it causes ahnedonia/mood blunting ... so would that indicate mianserin wouldn't work as well

Edited by forexworld12, 05 December 2014 - 06:32 AM.

[Area-1255]

Honestly I haven't done much research on Octopamine, but it would likely influence ATP transfer/uptake into cells, it also seems to interact with MAPK; mitogen activated protein kinase. Octopamine was used in some fat burners under the above claims, and research supports it in partiality. However, because we don't know what the CNS effects are, we should be careful of the highly complex pathway interactions especially when Caffeine and other chemicals acting through Adensosinergic pathways are being co-employed.

It's a touchy thing, and mianserins kappa opioid agonist properties would have me doubly concerned.

ImHo, either trazodone or mirtazapine are more effective!

Mirtazapine doesn't work for me...ya haven't tried for more than 2 days of use but it was enough to make me give up !! also read it causes ahnedonia/mood blunting ... so would that indicate mianserin wouldn't work as well

Well, follow the Endocrine system first brother!

[scibor1]

I've been having some problems after stopping Mirtazapine. I was only taking a low dose (3-7.5mg) for 2 weeks and I stopped it cold turkey. I know it sounds strange that such a low dose might do this.. but either it is some kind of protracted withdrawal, or it triggered something weird. I have always been very prone to experience EPS/akathisia on SSRIs and AAPs anyway.

 

For the past 9 weeks I've had: 

 

* mental and physical restless .. I can only describe the restlessness as akathisia: things like sitting down to concentrate and write an email can be unbearable and terror-inducing, I can't watch TV or listen to a podcast, I kind of writhe around and feel this horrible inner pressure, accompanied by anxiety/panic/terror. I can't drive. I have essentially spent the past 9 weeks bedridden.

 

* Mentally, my thoughts are messy and disorganized, I become very compulsive and can't stop checking my email/phone or eating etc. I suppose this accompanies the 2-minute attention span though. To put it crudely, I feel like I have too much NE or have had 6 cups of coffee .. my mind is blank, I feel slightly dissociated, intense exercise does nothing to rid me of the horrible restlessness.

 

* My muscles feel rigid .. my whole face feels stiff; it feels like my jaw is being pulled taught, and I constantly have headaches as a result. 

 

* My legs are restless and I have to jiggle them constantly. My muscles twitch randomly.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What I've tried:

 

Benzos (paradoxical reactions to all)

Beta-blockers (slight help, but bad side-effects like fatigue, depression, hypoglycemia)

Going back on Mirtazapine -- made problem worse

Other antihistamines -- made problem worse

Cogentin -- made anxiety worse

Paracetemol/Codeine mix -- eliminates symptoms by about 35%, improves mood a lot, but scared to use paracetemol regularly and find Codeine kind of activating

Niacin -- slight help

Manganese -- think I felt more anxious

 

Right now, I'm trying Lyrica. I'm taking 150mg at night and 75mg in the morning. I titrated up and have been on it for about 9 days total. So far, it does nothing for the mental or physical anxiety, but I find it easier to sit still.. to the point where I can write this message or go for a walk, but still can't really read very well or concentrate for more than 10 mins. I don't get sedated on the Lyrica and still have trouble sleeping, so am worried it might be activating me. 

 

Other clues: Herbs like Quercetin that target COMT/MAOI improve the restlessness, but make agitation worse; caffeine and nicotine likewise improve restlessness but induce a different kind of overstimulation. 

 

I took Neurontin once for 2 months to sleep. It was energizing until I hit 1000mg, where it was fantastic for anxiety, but destroyed my cognition.. I was in a haze. I guess it's an option though. 

 

My GP gave me a script for Requip. I am curious and thought about trying it once or twice to maybe confirm whether there is a neurological component to this .. but it's expensive and I don't want to be on it regularly.

 

I have no money and can't afford to see any specialists .. and I am worried about being put on a dopamine agonist if I saw a neurologist; my doctor referred me to one but there's a 3 month wait. Also, I *know* this isn't strictly neurological .. I do suffer from anxiety and depression regardless, and things are always bad due to my med sensitivities and treatment-resistance, but I was definitely not *this* incapacitated before I started the Mirtazapine. I feel like I should be on a mood-stabilizer, but don't know if it will stop the restlessness.

 

I can't take any NMDA antagonists or GABAergics due to more anxiety, so supplement-wise Magnesium, Taurine etc. are out, as well as NAC, which seems like it would've been ideal but agitates me. Anything else I could try?

 

Thank you for any help!

Edited by scibor1, 10 January 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Area-1255]

 

I've been having some problems after stopping Mirtazapine. I was only taking a low dose (3-7.5mg) for 2 weeks and I stopped it cold turkey. I know it sounds strange that such a low dose might do this.. but either it is some kind of protracted withdrawal, or it triggered something weird. I have always been very prone to experience EPS/akathisia on SSRIs and AAPs anyway.

 

For the past 9 weeks I've had: 

 

* mental and physical restless .. I can only describe the restlessness as akathisia: things like sitting down to concentrate and write an email can be unbearable and terror-inducing, I can't watch TV or listen to a podcast, I kind of writhe around and feel this horrible inner pressure, accompanied by anxiety/panic/terror. I can't drive. I have essentially spent the past 9 weeks bedridden.

 

* Mentally, my thoughts are messy and disorganized, I become very compulsive and can't stop checking my email/phone or eating etc. I suppose this accompanies the 2-minute attention span though. To put it crudely, I feel like I have too much NE or have had 6 cups of coffee .. my mind is blank, I feel slightly dissociated, intense exercise does nothing to rid me of the horrible restlessness.

 

* My muscles feel rigid .. my whole face feels stiff; it feels like my jaw is being pulled taught, and I constantly have headaches as a result. 

 

* My legs are restless and I have to jiggle them constantly. My muscles twitch randomly.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What I've tried:

 

Benzos (paradoxical reactions to all)

Beta-blockers (slight help, but bad side-effects like fatigue, depression, hypoglycemia)

Going back on Mirtazapine -- made problem worse

Other antihistamines -- made problem worse

Cogentin -- made anxiety worse

Paracetemol/Codeine mix -- eliminates symptoms by about 35%, improves mood a lot, but scared to use paracetemol regularly and find Codeine kind of activating

Niacin -- slight help

Manganese -- think I felt more anxious

 

Right now, I'm trying Lyrica. I'm taking 150mg at night and 75mg in the morning. I titrated up and have been on it for about 9 days total. So far, it does nothing for the mental or physical anxiety, but I find it easier to sit still.. to the point where I can write this message or go for a walk, but still can't really read very well or concentrate for more than 10 mins. I don't get sedated on the Lyrica and still have trouble sleeping, so am worried it might be activating me. 

 

Other clues: Herbs like Quercetin that target COMT/MAOI improve the restlessness, but make agitation worse; caffeine and nicotine likewise improve restlessness but induce a different kind of overstimulation. 

 

I took Neurontin once for 2 months to sleep. It was energizing until I hit 1000mg, where it was fantastic for anxiety, but destroyed my cognition.. I was in a haze. I guess it's an option though. 

 

My GP gave me a script for Requip. I am curious and thought about trying it once or twice to maybe confirm whether there is a neurological component to this .. but it's expensive and I don't want to be on it regularly.

 

I have no money and can't afford to see any specialists .. and I am worried about being put on a dopamine agonist if I saw a neurologist; my doctor referred me to one but there's a 3 month wait. Also, I *know* this isn't strictly neurological .. I do suffer from anxiety and depression regardless, and things are always bad due to my med sensitivities and treatment-resistance, but I was definitely not *this* incapacitated before I started the Mirtazapine. I feel like I should be on a mood-stabilizer, but don't know if it will stop the restlessness.

 

I can't take any NMDA antagonists or GABAergics due to more anxiety, so supplement-wise Magnesium, Taurine etc. are out, as well as NAC, which seems like it would've been ideal but agitates me. Anything else I could try?

 

Thank you for any help!

 

Weird, I've never gotten any withdrawal symptoms from mirtazapine..maybe a little restlessness....

 

You're likely noticing a sensitization or immediate re-cooperation of the histamine H1R recruited Ca2+ release...it's also possible that mirtazapine downregulated your type 2 (and possibly others) serotonin receptors...normally, this is a good thing in some ways...but you may also be experiencing de-sensitization of the 1A receptor if you had been on it for long-periods of time and / or had also used SSRI-antidepressants in the past....as I've explained to forexworld, there's a such thing as paradoxical anxiety, IF INDEED YOUR 5-HT1AR's are de-sensitized, either from an SSRI, MIRTZAPINE, OR BOTH, then likely the issue is being compounded by the serotonin-induced restlessness, which is most likely coming from the 5-HT4 receptor....so I would take something that blocks that...are you having any diarrhea or bowel discomfort?

 

Check out l-lysine and chamomile, which may stop 5-HT4 agonism...this may help the anxiety if it is induced by dis-inhibited/excess serotonin.

 

If it's noradrenaline, you can also do the above; chamomile and lysine...but I would also look into a protein kinase C inhibitor, such as lemon verbena leaf extract..

 

Try to relax...definitely heed the suggestions above.

 

Are you.

 

1.) Experiencing nausea?

2.) DIARRHEA?

3.) COLD HANDS AND FEET?

 

INBOX ME if you need personal help.

 

~JAY~

[atrw55]

On the topic of NE: Maybe a2-adreno receptor blockade increased NE transmission such that post-synaptic a2 receptors were agonized and downregulated while a1 receptors were antagonized by the mirtazapine and upregulated. So upon withdrawal, a2 autoreceptors are upregulated, decreasing NE transmission (postsynaptic a2) and a1 receptors are by contrast sensitized. Then you take some time off, the NE system tries to normalize. You resume mirtazapine and then it is stimulating again because post-synaptic a2 receptors were upregulated. Speculation. If that were the case then it would just take time off the drug. It could also involve the 5-ht system. 5-ht1a upregulation would lower 5-ht transmission. Funny, the only thing I can think of that rapidly normalizes both systems is estrogen

[Area-1255]

On the topic of NE: Maybe a2-adreno receptor blockade increased NE transmission such that post-synaptic a2 receptors were agonized and downregulated while a1 receptors were antagonized by the mirtazapine and upregulated. So upon withdrawal, a2 autoreceptors are upregulated, decreasing NE transmission (postsynaptic a2) and a1 receptors are by contrast sensitized. Then you take some time off, the NE system tries to normalize. You resume mirtazapine and then it is stimulating again because post-synaptic a2 receptors were upregulated. Speculation. If that were the case then it would just take time off the drug. It could also involve the 5-ht system. 5-ht1a upregulation would lower 5-ht transmission. Funny, the only thing I can think of that rapidly normalizes both systems is estrogen

Second post and you're already trying to play doctor? GTFOH!

Here, lemme help you to the exit...do you have any studies to back up that wild claim before you go?

No? Thought so.