13 replies to this topic

[sub7]

There has been such excellent discussion regarding Cocoa on this forum, but I have not been able to get to the bottom of a few important issues despite all of my readings. I have started this thread since I think others may be in a similar situation due to the fragmented nature of the info. Let us please put these few issues to rest once and for all.

 

First of all, what do you guys think of store bought regular cocoa powder -the kind that is sold in the baking section of supermarkets?

Is it worth getting raw / unprocessed or some other kind of more exotic cocoa powder (despite the lower price and convenience of the store bought stuff)?

 

How about the chocolate bars that are somewhere between 80% - 99% cocoa? The main difference between these bars and cocoa powder is that the bars -even the 99% one- have far far higher fat content (correct me if I am wrong). I assume this is the coca fat, which is largely absent in the coca powder. Is there any evidence that 1)this cocoa fat contains any alkaloids or other protective substances in large quantities that make it worthwhile to consume those extra calories? 2) this fat is needed to increase the bio-availability of beneficial ingredients in the powder?

 

Finally, is there an upper limit to how much cocoa powder you guys think one should consume at most? What is the limit beyond which either the theobromine or anything else (such as substances found exclusively in processed powders) would start presenting issues?

 

Thanks to all in advance

 

 

[Gerrans]

For the last few weeks I have been experimenting with store-bought cocoa powder--Cadbury's Bournville. Speaking anecdotally, I just want to say that, whatever its shortcomings as a Dutch-processed product, this stuff is by no means punchless. First of all, I find it mildly addictive--there must be more to that than the flavour, because I cannot say cocoa is a particularly favourite flavour of mine.

 

Recently I switched from two heaped teaspoons to three in each drink, on the principle that you probably have to ingest a lot of a Dutch-processed powder to access any effects. I have found myself very slightly mentally wired, producing a lot of new creative ideas and an increased work ethic. Along the way I have cut out one of my three eating times a day so that I can get more work done. This is unlike me.

 

That brings me to what is the most pronounced effect of this stuff on me, which is satiation. I do not need to lose weight, but I would recommend Bournville to someone looking for an appetite suppressant. I realised how powerful the effect is the other day when I was finishing off a tin and probably put a good four heaped teaspoons in one cup. After that (mid afternoon) I did not eat for the rest of the day. The satiation was not particularly pleasant at this dose, more a peripheral nausea. It reminded me of experiments I have done on myself eating high amounts of fats such as coconut oil, nut oils, butter, etc. The mechanism I believe is a slowing down of stomach emptying, caused by the body needing to reduce the rate at which it digests fats or other substances that take time to digest. This causes a slightly sickly feeling in the lower stomach that deters you from putting more things in your system. I do not suppose this is the sort of effect people are looking for from cocoa; but, again, it suggests to me that the off-the-shelf powders are not merely factory dust.

 

To sum up: in my experience, standard cocoa powder helps me to do more work, both by mildly stimulating my brain--presumably through any theobromine that survived the Dutching process--and by cutting down my eating breaks. I intend to try the raw cocoa products eventually; but, as usual, I like to start at the cheap end with such things and work up until I see an effect. In this case, I seem to have had an effect just from a supermarket product.

Edited by Gerrans, 23 December 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[jonnyD]

Regarding to my personal experiences: Raw Cocoa is way more effective as a nootropic than regular cocoa from supermarket. 

[mike_nyc]

I thought this was helpful.  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19754118

 

"A survey of a broad range of chocolate- and cocoa-containing products marketed in the United States was conducted to provide a more detailed analysis of flavan-3-ol monomers, oligomers, and polymers, which can be grouped into a class of compounds called procyanidins.  ... On a gram weight basis epicatechin and catechin content of the products follow in decreasing order: cocoa powder > baking chocolate > dark chocolate = baking chips > milk chocolate > chocolate syrup. ... The cocoa-containing products tested range from cocoa powder with 227.34 +/- 17.23 mg of procyanidins per serving to 25.75 +/- 9.91 mg of procyanidins per serving for chocolate syrup."

[sub7]

Regarding to my personal experiences: Raw Cocoa is way more effective as a nootropic than regular cocoa from supermarket. 

 

Thanks a lot for chiming in. Couple questions

 

When we say raw cocoa, are we talking about the powder obtained by grinding up completely raw (i.e. not roasted cocoa beans)?

 

Is the taste bearable? Very bitter? Could one consume it by mixing it into some yogurt for example?

 

How many grams do you think is approximately needed to obtain a notable nootropic effect?

[Mr Serendipity]

For the last few weeks I have been experimenting with store-bought cocoa powder--Cadbury's Bournville. Speaking anecdotally, I just want to say that, whatever its shortcomings as a Dutch-processed product, this stuff is by no means punchless. First of all, I find it mildly addictive--there must be more to that than the flavour, because I cannot say cocoa is a particularly favourite flavour of mine.

 

Recently I switched from two heaped teaspoons to three in each drink, on the principle that you probably have to ingest a lot of a Dutch-processed powder to access any effects. I have found myself very slightly mentally wired, producing a lot of new creative ideas and an increased work ethic. Along the way I have cut out one of my three eating times a day so that I can get more work done. This is unlike me.

 

That brings me to what is the most pronounced effect of this stuff on me, which is satiation. I do not need to lose weight, but I would recommend Bournville to someone looking for an appetite suppressant. I realised how powerful the effect is the other day when I was finishing off a tin and probably put a good four heaped teaspoons in one cup. After that (mid afternoon) I did not eat for the rest of the day. The satiation was not particularly pleasant at this dose, more a peripheral nausea. It reminded me of experiments I have done on myself eating high amounts of fats such as coconut oil, nut oils, butter, etc. The mechanism I believe is a slowing down of stomach emptying, caused by the body needing to reduce the rate at which it digests fats or other substances that take time to digest. This causes a slightly sickly feeling in the lower stomach that deters you from putting more things in your system. I do not suppose this is the sort of effect people are looking for from cocoa; but, again, it suggests to me that the off-the-shelf powders are not merely factory dust.

 

To sum up: in my experience, standard cocoa powder helps me to do more work, both by mildly stimulating my brain--presumably through any theobromine that survived the Dutching process--and by cutting down my eating breaks. I intend to try the raw cocoa products eventually; but, as usual, I like to start at the cheap end with such things and work up until I see an effect. In this case, I seem to have had an effect just from a supermarket product.

 

Thanks for sharing this. I use the same brand as you, which you can easily get from any supermarket here in the UK.

 

From my past experiences I remember, this stuff definitely packs a punch, it gives me an inner confidence, motivation, & positivity, where I feel I can do anything or be anyone. And the crash isn't anything like caffeine, in fact to me it's almost none existent, except the needed sleep because it's way past my bedtime (stimulation can cause insomnia). 

 

Also I remember raw cocoa powder sucked. One it's bitter, making a crap hot chocolate. Two, I got a weird side effect from it (I can't remember what it was), but when I googled the side effect and raw cocoa, other people were reporting it also. Three it cost way more.

 

Honestly the Cadbury's Bournville Cocoa from the supermarket will give me all these positive stimulation effects, and only cost £2.99 for 250g. 

 

I will definitely be testing this out again soon. After my nicotine experiment (similar to cocoa, but a ton more side effects), I thought it's time to test cocoa again. Atm I'm experimenting with megadosing liposomal vitamin c, but definitely plan to experiment with cocoa as a stimulant (and appetite suppressant) soon.

[Mind]

One thing to keep in mind is that almost all of the epidemiological studies that have been done through the years that show considerable health benefits from consuming dark chocolate and cocoa powder, have all tracked the consumption of regular mass market cocoa products.

 

Theoretically, could you do better with raw, unsweetened, non-alkalized, cocoa or cocoa nibs? Sure.

 

Is there likely still a significant benefit from the mass-produced stuff. Studies would say yes.  

[Dorian Grey]

This may sound crazy but I notice the effect of theobromine (impressive bounding pulse) from eating a Nestles Crunch bar, particularly before bed.  I used to wonder if I was developing cardiomyopathy before I discovered the "chocolate effect".  Test dose what ever form of coco you like before you lie down to bed, & if you're heart is beating like a bass drum, you're getting the juice.  

 

Jeanne Calment, the world's longest lived person (122) loved chocolate and ate up to a kilo a week.  Don't know if this was bitter/dark, but I'd be surprised if it was.  I doubt very much it was some disgusting concoction of raw cocoa powder.  

 

Don't make this too hard.  Partake of an enjoyable form!  

 

Look also at other "Xanthines" like caffeine, which may have a similar effect to theobromine in chocolate.  

 

My personal theory is that all xanthines, theobromine in chocolate and paraxanthine (a metabolite of caffeine) work their magic by disabling xanthine oxidaise, which is known to liberate iron from ferritin. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/3038086

 

The labile (free) iron pool breeds hydroxyl radicals, the most destructive force in cellular physiology. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14637247

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12673362

 

Control this, and you control aging!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 08 February 2018 - 08:40 AM.

[Mr Serendipity]

One thing to keep in mind is that almost all of the epidemiological studies that have been done through the years that show considerable health benefits from consuming dark chocolate and cocoa powder, have all tracked the consumption of regular mass market cocoa products.

 

Theoretically, could you do better with raw, unsweetened, non-alkalized, cocoa or cocoa nibs? Sure.

 

Is there likely still a significant benefit from the mass-produced stuff. Studies would say yes.  

 

This is good to know. Also as I mentioned in my previous post, I got a weird side effect from raw cocoa, which when I googled, other people had the same side effect. Unfortunately I can't remember the side effect, but I do remember chucking the whole bag away.

 

Thankfully normal cocoa powder tastes good, is cheap, and as I've jsut learnt, has the most studies behind it's positive effects anyway.

 

i.e. Don't fall for the raw cocoa scam, some things are better when processed or broken down, like raw vs cooked broccoli.

 

 

This may sound crazy but I notice the effect of theobromine (impressive bounding pulse) from eating a Nestles Crunch bar, particularly before bed.  I used to wonder if I was developing cardiomyopathy before I discovered the "chocolate effect".  Test dose what ever form of coco you like before you lie down to bed, & if you're heart is beating like a bass drum, you're getting the juice.  

 

Haha what a coincidence. I remember when I ate some dark chocolate at nighttime and will never do it again, Insomnia galore! Tick tock!

[Mr Serendipity]

https://www.eurekale...c-nsr100808.php

 

Over the past ten years, dark chocolate and cocoa have become recognized through numerous studies for flavanol antioxidant benefits. In a study published this month in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, scientists from The Hershey Company and Brunswick Laboratories of Norton, MA report on the levels of antioxidants in selected cocoa powders and the effect of processing on the antioxidant levels. The study, which analyzed Hershey's Natural Cocoa Powder and nineteen other cocoa powders, reported that natural cocoa powders have the highest levels of antioxidants. Natural cocoa powders contained an average of 34.6 mg of flavanols per gram of cocoa powder, or about 3.5% of total flavanols by weight. This places cocoa powder among the foods highest in these types of antioxidants.

The study went on to look at a variety of Dutched (alkaline processed) cocoa powders, which are commonly used by the food industry. New findings showed that the Dutched cocoa powders, especially the light- and medium-Dutched cocoa powders, retained significant amounts of cocoa flavanol antioxidants. In fact, despite the losses created by light to medium Dutch processing, these cocoa powders still were in the top 10% of flavanol-containing foods when results were compared to foods listed in the USDA Procyanidin Database.

"This is an important finding for people who like all things chocolate." said Ken Miller, the lead author of the paper. "Because cocoa powder is one of the richest sources of flavanol antioxidants to start with, even lightly- or medium-Dutched processed cocoa powders still retain significant levels of the beneficial antioxidants."

Dutching, or alkali treatment, of cocoa is a 180-year-old process used to lower the bitterness and darken the color of cocoa powder. Dutched cocoas are commonly used in beverages such as chocolate milk and hot cocoa mixes, in cakes and cookies, and in a limited number of confections. In the United States, the presence of Dutched cocoa or Dutched chocolate is indicated by looking for the terms "dutched" or "processed with alkali" on the ingredients label.

In this study, the degree of cocoa alkalization caused a progressive, but not complete loss, of flavanol antioxidants, with about 40% retained in lightly dutched cocoas, 25% retained in medium dutched cocoas, and 10% retained in heavily dutched cocoas.

 

Edited by manny, 14 March 2019 - 07:37 AM.

[Mr Serendipity]

https://www.cambridg...F49B55FC8A3CE0C

 

Polyphenols, specifically flavonoids are found abundantly in many plant foods such as fruit, vegetables, tea and cocoa, and are beneficial for health. Specifically, polyphenols in cocoa may reduce chronic inflammation(1,2) . The purity of cocoa influences the polyphenol content, with high purity cocoa powder containing a greater concentration of polyphenols compared to more processed powders. Cocoa powder can be made into beverage form, and the addition of ingredients such as diary milk may alter the bioavailability of the polyphenols in a sample(3) . The aim of this study was to determine the total polyphenol content of a range of cocoa beverages, with and without dairy cows milk. From the results of this study, the two beverages with the least and the greatest polyphenol content will be determined. Total polyphenol content of the test beverages was measured using the Folin-Ciocalteu method(4) . Cocoa drinks were purchased from Waitrose supermarket and were made using a standard protocol. Table 1 shows the various cocoa powders used and the polyphenol content of each beverage per gram of sample, with or without semi skimmed milk.

 

 

Overall, when made with both water and milk the pure cocoa beverages (Green & Blacks and Cadbury Bournville) were shown to be richer in total polyphenols compared to lower purity cocoa powder varieties. The addition of semi skimmed milk to Green & Blacks and Cadbury Bournville cocoa beverages significantly increased the amount of available polyphenols. These results show that milk may enhance the in vitro concentration of cocoa polyphenols, yet human studies would need to be performed. Although the addition of milk to cocoa powder has been shown to alter the absorption rate of polyphenols in humans, the overall polyphenol concertation was shown to be similar compared to the beverages made with water(5) . The results from the current trial will be used for a future human trial looking at the effect of a high polyphenol pure cocoa beverage compared to a low polyphenol control on chronic inflammatory status. 

 

 

 

 

Hellz yeah, my Cadbury's Bournville cocoa is awesome, and it's 100% dutched! Screw raw cocoa with a capital S. I still can't remember what side effects I got from raw cocoa all those years ago, but I remember the bag was expensive and I chucked the whole thing away. Cadbury's Bournville is delicious and high in polyphenols compared to all the over cocoa brands tested here.

Edited by Jesus is King, 12 February 2020 - 12:48 AM.

[ironfistx]

First thing, I like dark chocolate a lot.  I cannot even eat stuff under 80% anymore because it's too sweet.  But I stopped eating chocolate because possibly it causes Parkinson's.

 

Second thing, I'm glad I see you're in Europe because I'm told that Cadbury's in Europe is good, but Cadbury's here is horrible.

 

Third, look here to verify the kind of chocolate you buy is safe: https://www.asyousow...admium-in-food/

[Mr Serendipity]

Nice site but there are only 2 things of Cadbury’s on there though. Also I’m not eating chocolate much but drinking 4 teaspoons of their cocoa powder in the morning. Cadbury’s chocolate use to be awesome here in the U.K. before it was bought by a US company and they started changing the ingredients around. Now it’s meh. But like I said I’m drinking their cocoa powder, which is what’s referenced as having the highest flavanols in that study above. This stuff: https://www.tesco.co...ducts/254890351

 

I’ve drunk cocoa continuously for the last 20 days now, consuming massive quantities, and only recently settled on my sweet spot of 4 heaped teaspoons in the morning. And while the last 4 days I’ve only started experimenting with DMAE, and the last 2 days with ALCAR and 2 raw eggs yolks in the morning. I can say without a doubt my memory has improved, and I think cocoa is the main thing that caused it.

 

How do I know this?

 

Because today I was texting a friend who I went to college with. And for years now when he use to bring stuff up from college, situations, people we knew, things we did,  I couldn’t remember any of it, and we both agreed my memory was terrible and that’s been the case for years now. And these past couple of years I’ve also noticed how terrible my short term memory has become. Anyway today while texting him, within our 30 minute convo, I must have brought up 8 or more things of past college experiences I remembered, and I even said to him, damn my memory’s improved so much all of a sudden, must of be all that cocoa I’ve been drinking. I mean it’s hard to explain because they’re my memories, but before I couldn’t remember anything, very blank, while today I could remember more college experiences then I have done in years, and I mean that very literally.

 

So unless we give that credit to the DMAE I’ve only experimented with the last 4 days, or ALCAR and raw egg yolks the last 2 days, I think it’s a good indicator the 20 days of cocoa consumption is having a very positive effect on my memory.

 

Also note my memory was still terrible (until today) even though I had been taking a general health stack of minerals (zinc, magnesium), vitamins (c, e, b-complex), and herbs (gingko) for years previously, and I decided to drop the ginkgo and b-complex 6 months ago. So my memory’s better now, than years of having taken gingko and b-complex in my stack.

 

I will say it’s not completely a fair test so I can’t conclude this with absolute certainty, because I added sulbutiamine to my stack about 2 months ago, and added NAC to my stack about 10 months ago. But I can say without a doubt my memory has improved, because my memory was just terrible, including short term memory. And I’d probably give credit to cocoa consumption just because that’s what I’ve been taking the last 20 days and it has got research for memory improvement behind it, and I only noticed my memory improvement today.

 

So after years of having a bad memory, it is a big statement for me to say, my memory isn’t as bad as it use to be (whereas I could never say that before). And I’m confident if I keep seeing results, I may actually be able to say one day I have a good memory just like when I was younger.

 

Edited by Jesus is King, 01 March 2020 - 02:34 AM.

[adamh]

Is cadbury bourn vita the same thing?