149 replies to this topic

[aza]

my last post to stop derailing this thread any further, i do appreciate the information though timar.

You seem to have the impression that i eat a huge amount of protein, i would hardly classify 130g of protein as an excessive amount.

I tend to focus moreso on my micronutrient's (like nutrient interactions and lesser known trace minerals), useful suppliments and my general lifestyle then on my macro's in any case.

I'm also lucky enough to have access to organic pastured meat in an area that im pretty sure is low in dioxins, i also marinate my meat to reduce cooking carcinogens and i eat it medium rare/medium.

I do have one last question though, i was aware of the IGF-1 reduction from intermittent fasting but i was wondering if you knew whether it was only during the actual fasting period or continuous throughout the day.

Just in case i can use this to get slightly better effects by timing my workouts. :]

Edited by aza, 11 June 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[aribadabar]

 i would hardly classify 130g of protein as an excessive amount.

 

Unless you are a 130kg very active athlete, it is an excessive amount.

Most people don't need more than 0.5g protein/kg body weight daily to function normally.

[aza]

 

 i would hardly classify 130g of protein as an excessive amount.

 

Unless you are a 130kg very active athlete, it is an excessive amount.

Most people don't need more than 0.5g protein/kg body weight daily to function normally.

 

 

130kg seems a stretch, i'm around 85. I still dont think 130g is excessive. but oh well.
 

Edited by aza, 14 June 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[ceridwen]

That's all very well but the only diet known to reverse cognitive decline in clinical trials is low glycemic, low carb

[Maecenas]

Don't know if anyone else here has the same problem, but I feel constantly hungry on a vegetarian/vegan diet. I once tried to switch to that type of a diet, but I suffered from pangs of hunger all the time. It seems I am naturally predisposed to eating animal foods, as I couldn't convert to vegetarianism even after a couple of months.

 

After reading lots about nutrition, I came to the conclusion that there are stark differences between human populations in regards to what can be considered a healthy diet. Take, for example, people with a nordic phenotype - the vast majority of them can consume large amounts of milk. The same diet wouldn't be suitable for people from the eastern Asia. I think most people with nordic phenotype or other far North phenotypes are much more carnivouros than the rest of humanity. It doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit from a diet including more fruits and vegetables - they just don't experience as many bad consequences from eating foods high in animal fats and proteins as people from the southern regions.

Edited by Maecenas, 15 June 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[timar]

You seem to have the impression that i eat a huge amount of protein, i would hardly classify 130g of protein as an excessive amount.

I tend to focus moreso on my micronutrient's (like nutrient interactions and lesser known trace minerals), useful suppliments and my general lifestyle then on my macro's in any case.

I'm also lucky enough to have access to organic pastured meat in an area that im pretty sure is low in dioxins, i also marinate my meat to reduce cooking carcinogens and i eat it medium rare/medium.

I do have one last question though, i was aware of the IGF-1 reduction from intermittent fasting but i was wondering if you knew whether it was only during the actual fasting period or continuous throughout the day.

Just in case i can use this to get slightly better effects by timing my workouts. :]

 

130 g is an excessive amount for anybody, even for a 300 lb beefcake. The high protein group in the study by Levine et al. (75% higher all-cause mortality and a 4-fold increase in cancer and diabetes mortality compared to the low protein group), consumed an average of 24% protein of a 1600 kcal diet, which is less than 100 g of protein. Given that 10% is more than sufficient to maintain and gain muscle mass (the low protein group consumed an average of 8.5%), I would cosider anything above 15 % (the overall and medium protein group average) excessive.

 

The IGF-1 lowering effect of regular intermittent fasting indeed seems to sustain even through the ad libitum periods. Hence my remark that it doesn't make much sense to boost IGF-1 by consuming excessive amounts of protein and then engage in intermittent fasting to get it down again to a healthy (albeit less anabolic) level, where it could have been in the first place by consuming less animal protein.

Edited by timar, 16 June 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[aza]

i decided to have a deeper look, and i mostly agree with you. I have decided to lower my protien a little, but not nearly as low as what you suggest.

I had a look at a few studies and articles, but i found this one the most interesting. http://bayesianbodyb...r-bodybuilders/

•    Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
•    Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
•    Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
•    Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
•    Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

 

 "There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up. There hasn’t been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb. The only exceptions to this rule could be individuals with extraordinarily high anabolic hormone levels.
•    Optimal protein intake decreases with training age, because your body becomes more efficient at preventing protein breakdown resulting from training and less protein is needed for the increasingly smaller amount of muscle that is built after each training session. The magnitude of this effect is unclear. "

 

It looks like 102g of protein is probably sufficient for my bodyweight and 120g is probably a decent markup. I will lower my diet to 120g protein. :]

[timar]

Nice literature review you have done!

 

I'd just like to add that although the absolute amount of protein required for optimum maintainance increases with lean body mass, the required amount of total calories increases proportionally - at least when one engages in proper maintainance exercise. My basal metabolic rate should be about 1800 kcal but currently I'm exercising quite vigorously (biking 300-400 km per week) and my actual caloric requirement is probably about twice as high (3600 kcal), which would yield 145 g of protein from my usual ~15% protein diet  (Damn, 145 g! I hate when I have to correct myself, but I'm affraid my previous statement may have been in fact somewhat exaggerated ), which would give exactly 1.8 g/kg for my bodyweight of 80 kg. However, I eat a lot of foods high in carbohydrate during exercise, such as fruits and granola bars, in order to replenish muscle glycogen, hence the relative amount of protein in my diet is lower when I'm doing more exercise (right now probably around 100 g). Otherwise my protein intake - even from a largely plant-based diet that puts no special emphasis on protein rich foods other than including grains, legumes and moderate amounts of dairy and fish and very little meat - would in fact turn out excessive.

 

So much for the myth that during heavy exercise, one has to put a special emphasis on protein rich food. The opposite is the case!

 

 

Edited by timar, 16 June 2015 - 04:30 PM.

[HaloTeK]

Carbs spare protein.

[aza]

I would just like to add that that wasnt my review, it was from the article. I had a look around and found a few of those studies previously, but that was the best overview i could find. Just giving credit where its due :]

[revenant]

breakfast   tempeh-bacon a peach and 3 cups of strong coffee with soy milk

lunch        bowl of lentils and a pbj on semi white bread

dinner       fake chicken with brown rice and a green salad

[Matman32]

breakfast   tempeh-bacon a peach and 3 cups of strong coffee with soy milk

lunch        bowl of lentils and a pbj on semi white bread

dinner       fake chicken with brown rice and a green salad

 

Being vegetarian is fine, but you're not a bit skeptical about that fake meat? 

[timar]

Sadly, asparagus season is slowly drawing to an end here, so I eat as much asparagus as I can while it lasts. Seriously, I could eat asparagus every single day and probably have during the last weeks. My menue from the last two days gives some examples:

 

Tuesday

 

Breakfast: Timar's special muesli

 

Lunch: Whole durum wheat spagetti with diced red onions, eggplant, sun-dried tomatoes, green olives, and chopped walnuts, herbs (rosemary, thyme, organo, parsley) and garlic sautéd in olive and canola oil (from the canned sun-dried tomatoes), tossed with peppery arugula, olive oil and some grated Parmigiano.

(Sounds like a lot of effort for a week day's lunch, but it was actually the leftover from last day's dinner which I often have for lunch. Saves not only the money for eating out, but also one from being tempted by all the unhealthy dishes on the menu.)

 

Dinner: Oven-baked green asparagus with oyster mushrooms tossed in a marinade of olive oil, chopped herbs (s.a.), lemon zest, garlic and black pepper and sprinkled with some white wine while baking in the oven. To go with it: Insalata Caprese, a bowl of arugula with aceto balsamico and olive oil and freshly baked walnut baugette. A glass of red wine and a half cup of home-made ice cream with blueberries for dessert.

 

Snacks: A banana, a peach, an apple, some grapes, a cup of strawberries, some dark chocolate and a small piece of baklava.

Drinks: Two cups of filtered coffee, an espresso, two cups of orange juice mixed with sour milk and chrushed ice (one part each - a nice refreshing drink. It put it in my thermos and it keeps cool a whole hot summer's day long), a glass of wine and lots of water.

 

Wednesday

 

Breakfast. s.a., plus a piece of walnut baugette with Camembert and home-made blackberry jam.

 

Lunch: a bowl of ready-to-eat "Mexican" salad from the grocery (mixed greens, grated carrots, tomatoes, sweet corn, kidney beans and chicken breast with a canola oil-based dressing) with a "multi grain" roll. I pimped the salad with some freshly gathered wild greens (dandelion, garlic mustard and ground elder).

 

Dinner: Steamed white asparagus wrapped in Black Forest ham with steamed new potatoes tossed with melted, pastered butter, lots of chopped, curley-leafed parsley and finished a pinch of black pepper and nutmeg (the traditional German way of eating asparagus. The combination is far too good to give up the ham, but I go easy on it by using a very thin ~1 oz slice for wrapping 1/2 lb of steamed asparagus.) A bowl of mixed salad greens with radishes, spring onions, tomatoes and cucumber with honey-mustard dressing. And, of course, a glass of Riesling wine. A cup of strawberries with vanilla yogurt for dessert.

 

Snacks: Two bananas, two peaches, a cup of cherries, a cup of strawberries, a scoop of ice-cream and a granola-nut bar.

Drinks: Three cups of filtered coffee, a glass of wine, a glass of champange and lots of water.

 

If all that sounds like a lot of calories - it proabably is (I never bother to count them), but as I've said, I'm currently exercising quite vigorously.

 

Oh by the way, I love oyster mushrooms just as much as I love asparagus! If you don't like the mushy consistency cooked mushrooms often have, you should try broiled or oven-roasted oyster mushrooms tossed with garlic, herbs and olive oil. They have a firm, meat-like consistency unlike any other mushroom. What's also unlike any other popular, edible mushroom is that about 2% of the dry mass of oyster mushrooms is made up of lovastatin (some fascinating facts in this article). Hence, eating a 1/2 lb serving of oyster mushrooms should supply you with a hefty dose of ~500 mg lovastatin, about ten times the higher prescription dose - yet I have never experienced nor heard about any serious side effect from eating oyster mushrooms! When I think about how often I've had them during the last weeks, I'm curious what my cholesterol level is right now. Maybe I should have some blood drawn to find out.

 

 

Edited by timar, 18 June 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Kalliste]

Here is my breakfeast porridge. Contains... everything.
Olive oil. Coconut oil. Blueberries. One apple. One banana. Walnuts. Almonds. Sunflower seeds. Teaspoon of Cinnamon, Cardamom, Gingerpowder. Psyllium seeds. Some grapeseed powder. Milled Flax seeds and a bunch of other fullgrains that I am too lazy to google the english name for.
Heated for six mins in a microwave.

Attached Files

•  20150618_085549.jpg   91.11KB   3 downloads

[DAMI]

Timar, what is your motivation for eating an overly refined food like tofu rather than whole soy beans?

[timar]

Timar, what is your motivation for eating an overly refined food like tofu rather than whole soy beans?

 

I enjoy both tofu and edamame, although not quite regularly. Anyway, it is absurd to consider tofu an "overly refined food". In fact, it doesn't get any more traditional than tofu, which has been produced for more than 2000 years by cooking ground soy beans with water, draining off the soy milk and letting it coagulate by adding nigari - just like it is done with ruminants' milk and rennet in the European tradition of cheese making.

 

The organic tofu I use to buy, like most tofu, is still produced the same way. Ingredients: soy beans, nigari, sea salt.

Edited by timar, 18 June 2015 - 12:55 PM.

[sthira]

^^ Timar your diet looks amazing. And more importantly it looks like you actually enjoy preparing and eating healthy meals. That is, it seems as if you're not simply eating well, but also enjoying the process, and I think that's a really overlooked aspect of eating healthy. Enjoyment. I wish I did. For me, although I eat healthy foods, I don't seem to get much love out of it. Eating well -- I eat only whole foods -- fruits, vegetables, legumes, nuts, small amounts of grains, chocolate, some dried berries -- eating has become more like a joyless habit for me. A chore. I'm kind of ashamed to admit that, frankly. Yet I think there's something significant that goes along with sending good vibes with the eating process. We should be grateful, I think, that we're able to eat in ways that are extremely healthy and most people here on planet earth just don't have the same opportunities.

Sorry for the rant.

[aza]

only soy stuff i'll use is natto and fermented soy sauce :P

But i second what sthira said timar, its healthy and you look like you enjoy it.

I've personally decided to try a new recipe at least twice a week, should keep things interesting :]

Starting with chilli con carne and minestrone :D

Edited by aza, 18 June 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[misterE]

delete please 

Edited by misterE, 18 June 2015 - 01:41 PM.

[misterE]

 

 

 

it is absurd to consider tofu an "overly refined food". In fact, it doesn't get any more traditional than tofu, which has been produced for more than 2000 years

 

Same could be said with bread and flour; eaten since biblical times.

[sthira]

it is absurd to consider tofu an "overly refined food". In fact, it doesn't get any more traditional than tofu, which has been produced for more than 2000 years

Same could be said with bread and flour; eaten since biblical times.

Except that "bread" (at least in my case) seems to send my blood sugar levels screaming. Maybe I'm misguided, but I consider eating bread for "health" -- even though it's an ancient staple -- to be enjoyed seldom and in very small doses. Maybe certain types of coarse bread, or homemade bread are healthier options. But most (not all, of course) of the preprocessed and packaged commodity bread that's on sale in Western markets seems like junk food to me. Take a blood sugar reading, eat some junk bread, and then retake your blood sugar reading later. If these spikes appear acceptable to you, then by all means enjoy your bread and your flour and your starches, don't look back, and why give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about it?

[DAMI]

 

it is absurd to consider tofu an "overly refined food". In fact, it doesn't get any more traditional than tofu, which has been produced for more than 2000 years

 

Being a traditional food doesn't say much about its healthfulness. After all white bread has also been made since antiquity.

I consider the removal of the soy milk pulp (okara) in the tofu-making process as akin to the removal of bran and germ in the production of white flour.

[Matman32]

I think I heard before that Asians traditionally ate mostly fermented soy, which tofu is not? I don't eat much soy beside some tamari sauce, but I would be open to try natto. I didn't find it yet without added MSG.

[1jol1uvcaaq]

Breakfast - 6 egg smoothie

Lunch - filet mignon, 1 sweet potato

Supper - bacon, salmon, 2 cup cooked spinach

[timar]

 

 

it is absurd to consider tofu an "overly refined food". In fact, it doesn't get any more traditional than tofu, which has been produced for more than 2000 years

 

Being a traditional food doesn't say much about its healthfulness. After all white bread has also been made since antiquity.

I consider the removal of the soy milk pulp (okara) in the tofu-making process as akin to the removal of bran and germ in the production of white flour.

 

 

I agree that it doesn't say much about the healthfulness of that particular food per se, but the epidemiology is clear about the healthfulness of the dietary patterns containing those foods. The fact that those foods have been dietary staples in the very places where people have enjoyed the highest life expectancy on Earth (e.g. Sardinia and Okinawa) should tell you something. Anyway, I still don't see the point to your comment as I have never claimed tofu or baugette to be a health food, have I? I've just mentioned that I had some of them - together with a meal rich in unprocessed whole plant food. I don't eat a 110% health food diet (nor have I ever claimed to), because I as much as I enjoy eating a good and healthy diet, I avoid obsessing about every single food in contains and whether it is kosher/halal/organic/non-GMO/vegan/WFPB/paleo/gluten-free/additive-free or whatever seal of approval required by a certain dietary ideology. A diet is much more than just the physiological aspects of the food you eat (as the reductionist approach of nutritional science allures us into thinking), it is - in the broadest sense - about relating yourself to the World, about Communion. By following an overly restrictive diet that is not part of your own cultural heritage (it is of course perfectly fine for a Muslim to eat halal, or a Jew to eat kosher, because by doing so they relate to their own tradition shared with their people) you tend to cut your self off those vital relations and isolate yourself socially (by shunning the food the people around you eat) as well as culturally. I'm sure that the psychological stress and isolation caused by this behaviour ultimately outweigh any strictly physiological benefits one may derive from adhering to such a diet.

Edited by timar, 29 July 2015 - 09:10 AM.

[TheFountain]

Last night I had a whole oven roasted chicken for dinner. 

 

This morning I had some dark chocolate dipped in natural peanut butter and a bowl of flax/chia seed gluten free cereal with Banana slices in it. 

[Duchykins]

I don't follow the 3-meals-a-day paradigm.  It's not something that was deliberate, though.  I eat when I'm hungry, don't eat when I'm not hungry, only strict rule I have is absolutely nothing except water or tea after 8 pm.  If we call them "meals" then there's about 6 or 7 per day.  But I think they're too small to be called meals.

 

Typical week (I usually just default to my cravings rather than following an organized diet plan, but it's easy for me because it's very rare for me to crave junk food):

 

spinach

broccoli

baby carrots

orange or yellow bell peppers

cucumbers

sweet peas

snow peas

sugar snap peas

corn on the cob

baby corn

kiwis

blueberries

lemons

sprouts

artichokes

water chestnuts

green onions

pesto

green olives

pepperonchinis

seaweed

kefir

soymilk

mixed frozen fruits, other random stuff thrown in the blender

ginger/turmeric tea

gingko tea

other teas 

jasmine rice (brown or white), sometimes calrose instead

pasta or ravoli or tortellini

oatmeal

raisin bran (not the ones crusted with sugar) or oatmeal squares

chia

savory hemp/flax blend (seasoning)

chicken 

fish

 

typical snacks, usually for a study session:

 

whole milk cottage cheese w/ mandarin oranges & chia

peanut butter, apricot jam sandwich (whole wheat bread)

protein-oatmeal English muffin

breakfast biscuits (the hard, cracker-like kind) or granola bars or fig bars

chunky salmon dip with crackers

hummus dip with carrots or crackers

sourdough bread & butter (or extra virgin coconut oil)

homemade chia drink (these are cool you can flavor them however you want)

something chocolate, cacao powder/drink or bar (real chocolate, not white "chocolate")

 

 

(infrequently) reward/pleasure food

 

BLT sandwich

BBQ Beef Hot Pocket     

homemade chicken potstickers pan-fried in olive oil

mint & chip ice cream

olive & mushroom pan pizza

house fried rice w/ lemon sauce (but only from this small local place because I know how they do it)

 

 

 

 

This sort of diet makes my brain happy.  As long as my brain is happy, all is right with the world.  

Edited by Duchykins, 06 August 2015 - 05:38 PM.

[bosharpe]

Breakfast:

1 boiled egg on wholemeal bread with olive oil, 2 tbsp of tomato puree and garlic puree. A slice of melon. Sunflower seeds, chia, flax, pumpkin seeds, almonds, brazil nuts, cocoa nibs,  cinnamon, blueberries, strawberries. Green tea. Two heaped tbsp of Green superfood powder with a squeeze of lemon in a pint of water. Vitamin MK-7, Pom extract, D3, Bladderwrack and zinc.

 

Lunch: chocolate with peanut butter and more green tea.

 

Dinner: Roasted veggies with a bean burger and flat bread.

[bosharpe]

Naawww .. One dislike? someone didn't like what I ate yesterday :(

[Duchykins]

Naawww .. One dislike? someone didn't like what I ate yesterday :(

 

Don't worry, it was an ideologically obligatory downvote from one of the vegans, no doubt.