60 replies to this topic

[pone11]

Acu-Cell (hair mineral analysis) has an interesting page on copper: http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

 

Their historical records seem to indicate copper deficiency is almost unheard of, and excess is the norm in most populations as they age.  

I like their opinion that most trace mineral issues are not related to deficiencies, but rather to isolated and individual mineral excesses that result in imbalances.  

 

My own research seems to indicate it's very hard to be truly deficient in most any trace mineral, even if you live on junk food and beer.  It is excesses and imbalances that create problems.  The over-mineralization theory of aging and disease is one of my favorite topics of discussion and I feel chelation to more youthful mineral profiles has been the fountain of youth for me.  

 

I donate blood to lower iron and take IP6 to chelate excess trace minerals.  My hair was going gray at my temples 15 years ago, but since I've been lowering iron, it's gone back to brown.  My God, I'm getting younger!   

 

Don't supplement minerals (if you're over 30)...  Chelate them!  My only exceptions to this rule are magnesium (the most common mineral deficiency) and zinc, which is too important to ever run short on.  As I take IP6 which chelates these, I do supplement them in low doses, well away from my IP6 fountain of youth pill.  

 

Many people have iron overload issues, and donating blood to maintain low iron levels is usually very healthful.  I am really interested in your comment about grey hair.  I thought grey hair was the byproduct of too much hydrogen peroxide, and it usually blamed on falling catalase levels as you age.   Superoxide radical is converted by superoxide dismutase to hydrogen peroxide, and then by catalase to water and O2.   Someone else pointed out that glutathione peroxidase can substitute for catalase, but GP also declines as you get older.    Would the theory be that by lowering excess iron you are lowering a source of superoxide radicals, so that you get less hydrogen peroxide in the first place?   

 

Removing iron from the body - when blood tests suggest you carry too much of it - is somewhat specific to iron because iron as a mineral is very slow to leave the body.   Bleeding and donating blood are the best ways to get it out of circulation.   But most other minerals will be disposed of rapidly without chelating and without blood letting.

 

I think each mineral tells a different story.   Some minerals have a wide range of nutritional value, and toxicity only occurs at a high level.  Other minerals like manganese can become very toxic quickly and the benefit is in a narrow range.

 

I think "one size fits all" advice to chelate all minerals is not helpful.   It's better to study each mineral separately, supplement those that you do not have in significant amounts in the diet you eat, and then monitor the RBC levels over time.  Real testing on your specific biology always gives a more informed result than abstract theories that "all minerals are bad and should be reduced across the board."    98% of the population won't run an RBC test on their individual minerals, and they also won't research each mineral.   That's not a reason to not do that.   What if you run an RBC test and find out that you are extremely low (bottom 5%) on copper?   Why would you want to chelate that?   See my next post.

Edited by pone11, 02 January 2015 - 11:52 PM.

[pone11]

Acu-Cell (hair mineral analysis) has an interesting page on copper: http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

 

Their historical records seem to indicate copper deficiency is almost unheard of, and excess is the norm in most populations as they age.  

I like their opinion that most trace mineral issues are not related to deficiencies, but rather to isolated and individual mineral excesses that result in imbalances.  

 

My own research seems to indicate it's very hard to be truly deficient in most any trace mineral, even if you live on junk food and beer.  It is excesses and imbalances that create problems.  The over-mineralization theory of aging and disease is one of my favorite topics of discussion and I feel chelation to more youthful mineral profiles has been the fountain of youth for me.  

 

I donate blood to lower iron and take IP6 to chelate excess trace minerals.  My hair was going gray at my temples 15 years ago, but since I've been lowering iron, it's gone back to brown.  My God, I'm getting younger!   

 

Don't supplement minerals (if you're over 30)...  Chelate them!  My only exceptions to this rule are magnesium (the most common mineral deficiency) and zinc, which is too important to ever run short on.  As I take IP6 which chelates these, I do supplement them in low doses, well away from my IP6 fountain of youth pill.  

 

I think the following passage from Perfect Health Diet is worth quoting here:

"In a human copper restriction trial, a modest reduction of copper intake from 1.38 milligrams per day to 1 milligram per day produced heart trouble in four of twenty-three subjects, including one heart attack.   The authors commented:

'In the history of conducting numerous human studies at the Beltsville Human Nutrition Research Center involving participation by 337 subjects, there had previously been no instances of any health problem related to heart function.   During the 11 weeks of the present study in which the copper density of the diets fed the subjects was reduced....4 out of 23 subjects were diagnosed as having heart-related abnormalities.'"

 

I agree very few people have copper deficiencies.  But if you do have one, the cost of that is extremely high.   So, rather than following blind advice to never supplement, I would rather be the person who knows my copper status inside the RBC cell (not so much in plasma), and who adjusts diet or supplementation to reflect my status.   If you supplement zinc at high levels, that will make you go low on copper, so following your advice to supplement zinc and simultaneously chelate everything else, could result in a critical nutrient like copper going far below the minimum required levels.   Good science should always be based on having a hypothesis, coming up with an experiment, and then testing the result.   Most hypotheses are flawed, and only by testing do you get to reality.

[Dorian Grey]

I'm all for monitoring and tweaking trace (and macro) minerals...  The emphasis being on monitoring if you can afford to throw the money into this.  

 

I'm in your 98% who's never laid down the cash for RBC mineral analysis though, so my "poor man's" method of bloodletting and chelation is the best I can do.  As from what I've read, trace mineral deficiencies are rare, but individual excesses causing imbalance are common, I'm banking on modest chelation to pull down my elevated trace minerals and allowing them to re-balance naturally through diet.  Not perfect and I don't even know if it's working other than for iron as I do monitor ferritin.  

 

My alternatives: To do nothing, or to start pouring cash into monitoring are less attractive to me.  I've been donating blood off and on for many years, and chelating off and on for about 5 years without any adverse affects.  I'm actually rather astonished at my consistent good health...  I drank more than I should have throughout my youth and also smoke.  Switched to a pipe I puff on only in the evening about 20 years ago.  Never had a chronic illness and hearing, balance, energy and reflexes are holding up remarkably well at 58.  

 

My gray hair at my temples seemed to show up almost overnight in my mid 40s.  It was more silvery than salt & pepper gray and didn't bother me at all.  I honestly don't know what happened to turn this around, but it occurred after I started donating blood more often and before I started chelating.  My beard is still gray, but hair is full brown for over a decade again.  I don't have a link for you, but I've read iron can interfere with copper (which colors hair) when they are badly imbalanced.    

 

I'll agree aggressive and blind chelation may be unwise, but from the research I've done, accumulation/excesses of individual trace minerals is more the norm than deficiencies as we age.  I'm too cheap to monitor my levels properly so I err on the side of "less is more" when it comes to minerals.  Mag & Zinc are the exceptions to my rule, but I supplement these at very low doses.

Edited by synesthesia, 03 January 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[niner]

I think the following passage from Perfect Health Diet is worth quoting here:

"In a human copper restriction trial, a modest reduction of copper intake from 1.38 milligrams per day to 1 milligram per day produced heart trouble in four of twenty-three subjects, including one heart attack.   The authors commented:

'In the history of conducting numerous human studies at the Beltsville Human Nutrition Research Center involving participation by 337 subjects, there had previously been no instances of any health problem related to heart function.   During the 11 weeks of the present study in which the copper density of the diets fed the subjects was reduced....4 out of 23 subjects were diagnosed as having heart-related abnormalities.'"

 

I agree very few people have copper deficiencies.  But if you do have one, the cost of that is extremely high.   So, rather than following blind advice to never supplement, I would rather be the person who knows my copper status inside the RBC cell (not so much in plasma), and who adjusts diet or supplementation to reflect my status.   If you supplement zinc at high levels, that will make you go low on copper, so following your advice to supplement zinc and simultaneously chelate everything else, could result in a critical nutrient like copper going far below the minimum required levels.

 

In order to get down to 1 mg Cu per day, I would have to eat a pretty weird diet.  A lot of people get more that that just from water, without even considering food.  A 4 oz serving of potatoes has a milligram of copper, for example--  It's everywhere.   I fully agree that RBC testing for all micronutrients would be ideal, but like nearly everyone, I'm not doing that.  The vast majority of us who don't measure copper are faced with not one blind choice, but two:  We can blindly not supplement, or we can blindly supplement.  In order to distinguish which of those is more appropriate, you have to consider the odds that you have too little versus too much copper.  My analysis is that I am far more likely to have too much copper than not enough, so I don't supplement it.  Since none of my ancestors supplemented copper, going all the way back to the primordial soup, I think that blindly supplementing is not supported by evolutionary principles, in addition to all that we know about the dangers of copper excess.   

 

BTW, does typical RBC copper analysis distinguish between free and bound copper?  My impression is that it doesn't, and the free (or poorly liganded) copper number is critical, as it is the bad actor.

[Dorian Grey]

I thought the  Perfect Health study seemed rather bizarre myself...  Less than 3 months on a very modestly copper restricted diet and substantial numbers suffered clinical cardiac issues?  I know the body stores copper in the liver...  Shocking to hear all hell could break loose under such a modest restriction over such a brief time.  

 

Whenever I see a study like this, I always try to find some legitimate research that might confirm it.  The study of vitamins, minerals and nutrition has thousands of references in PubMed.  It would be interesting to search for anything that would corroborate this extraordinary claim.  

[pone11]

 

I think the following passage from Perfect Health Diet is worth quoting here:

"In a human copper restriction trial, a modest reduction of copper intake from 1.38 milligrams per day to 1 milligram per day produced heart trouble in four of twenty-three subjects, including one heart attack.   The authors commented:

'In the history of conducting numerous human studies at the Beltsville Human Nutrition Research Center involving participation by 337 subjects, there had previously been no instances of any health problem related to heart function.   During the 11 weeks of the present study in which the copper density of the diets fed the subjects was reduced....4 out of 23 subjects were diagnosed as having heart-related abnormalities.'"

 

I agree very few people have copper deficiencies.  But if you do have one, the cost of that is extremely high.   So, rather than following blind advice to never supplement, I would rather be the person who knows my copper status inside the RBC cell (not so much in plasma), and who adjusts diet or supplementation to reflect my status.   If you supplement zinc at high levels, that will make you go low on copper, so following your advice to supplement zinc and simultaneously chelate everything else, could result in a critical nutrient like copper going far below the minimum required levels.

 

In order to get down to 1 mg Cu per day, I would have to eat a pretty weird diet.  A lot of people get more that that just from water, without even considering food.  A 4 oz serving of potatoes has a milligram of copper, for example--  It's everywhere.   I fully agree that RBC testing for all micronutrients would be ideal, but like nearly everyone, I'm not doing that.  The vast majority of us who don't measure copper are faced with not one blind choice, but two:  We can blindly not supplement, or we can blindly supplement.  In order to distinguish which of those is more appropriate, you have to consider the odds that you have too little versus too much copper.  My analysis is that I am far more likely to have too much copper than not enough, so I don't supplement it.  Since none of my ancestors supplemented copper, going all the way back to the primordial soup, I think that blindly supplementing is not supported by evolutionary principles, in addition to all that we know about the dangers of copper excess.   

 

BTW, does typical RBC copper analysis distinguish between free and bound copper?  My impression is that it doesn't, and the free (or poorly liganded) copper number is critical, as it is the bad actor.

 

 

I wasn't aware of the free versus bound copper, but how could anyone even determine that?   There is a test named non-ceruloplasmin-bound copper (NCC) that supposedly helps to diagnose Wilson's disease, but this condition only affects 1 in 30K patients.   Do you have reason to believe that high free copper is an issue for significant numbers of people.   Thanks for making me aware of this, although I'm not sure it can be easily tested.

 

As far as being short on Copper, it depends on your source.   A 2001 study found that the median American intake of copper is around 0.759 mg.  The same study found that a full 25% of the US population gets less than 0.57 mg per day.  You get copper in diet from shellfish, nuts, and liver, and there are plenty of Americans who apparently never eat that.   US soils are depleted of copper and it does not get into the food chain through the soil.   See:

"Pang, Y.  A longitudinal investigation of aggregate oral intake of copper.  Journal of Nutrition.  131 no 8 (Aug 2001) 2171-76"

 

Given the Beltsville study showing that 1 mg was a critical value for major cardiac risk, those numbers above should raise alarm flags.

 

Now if the advise is to supplement Zinc, that sends Copper lower.  And if the advise is to also chelate minerals, those people who started out below 1 mg are seriously at risk.

 

That's why I say details matter.   If you are going to take time to research literature, get the benefit of literature and test yourself.    The real numbers will almost always have surprises.

 

In reference to the Beltsville Copper study reported by Perfect Health, I am here to tell you the literature is riddled with studies where they take copper out of animal diets, and the cardiovascular effects are routinely seen.  There are lots of heart ruptures and heart related issues in these studies, which does corroborate Beltsville.    Perfect Health also has an interesting section where they look at studies of autopsies of people who die from cardiac related diseases.   Huge percentages of those patients (80%+) are short on magnesium, copper, and chromium.   

 

I would put in a good word for Perfect Health Diet as well.   The Jaminets do a brilliant job of summarizing literature, but equally important Paul Jaminet has a real gift for making common sense recommendations for supplementation based on the research literature.   Whenever I need a refresher on literature, I always go to that book before looking further.  If you are going to take the position that you do not want to pay for testing, I think you could do much worse than just implementing Jaminet's very very conservative guidelines.  From memory, I think he recommends supplementing copper simply by eating it from food, about 1/4 pound of liver *once* a week.

 

Edited by pone11, 03 January 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[pone11]

 

My gray hair at my temples seemed to show up almost overnight in my mid 40s.  It was more silvery than salt & pepper gray and didn't bother me at all.  I honestly don't know what happened to turn this around, but it occurred after I started donating blood more often and before I started chelating.  My beard is still gray, but hair is full brown for over a decade again.  I don't have a link for you, but I've read iron can interfere with copper (which colors hair) when they are badly imbalanced.    

 

 

Frankly, that is pretty exciting!   And the thing is it probably makes a lot of sense too.  Excess iron ends up sitting in the cell and sending off free radicals, which then increases hydrogen peroxide under the action of SOD.  By getting the iron out of our bodies we are reducing oxidative stress, maybe by a lot.    Of course this all assumes you measure your iron parameters and don't make yourself anemic.   See "The Iron Elephant" for details on how to calculate if you have Iron Overload.  If you are male and over 35, you probably do.

 

I have wanted to read that for a while and your post is pushing me to do it.  I had been given advice to donate blood and I'm going to get it scheduled.  I'll probably have to give a pint six times the first year to get down to close to the target.

[Dorian Grey]

OK, well you've got me interested in Copper now...  I'll have to dig into the matter further.  Perhaps I'll even spring for a test.  Will give Perfect Health a look also.  

 

The Iron Disorders Institute has a page that gives a good indication of what an optimal level or target for stored iron (ferritin) should be.  Most labs set their upper limit of the normal range quite high, simply because most doctors consider it "normal" to accumulate substantial amounts of iron as we age, however it appears the "optimal" level is well out of triple digits set by most labs.  

 

http://www.irondisor...org/iron-tests/

 

Under "Serum Ferritin (SF)" they state:

 

"Serum ferritin measurements range from about 15–200 ng/ml for women and 20–300 ng/ml for men.  Although laboratory ranges vary, most are close to these values.  Approximately 95% of the population will fall within “normal” population range simply because ranges are calculated using standard statistical methodology.  Except for the lower ends of these ranges, which can predict anemia or iron deficiency anemia, the ranges per se do not define optimal or even healthy iron levels.  Optimal SF ranges for men and women are 25 – 75 ng/ml.  Individuals with risk factors for diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, stoke, liver diseases and cancer face amplified risks proportional to the amount of stored body iron over and above the optimal range.

 

Numerous medical research studies have demonstrated that serum ferritin above 100 ng/ml has been associated with decreased cardio vascular fitness and increased incidences of: atherosclerosis, type 2 diabetes, cancer gout and accelerated aging including osteoporosis and sarcopenia (muscle wasting) due to oxidative stress.  Fortunately this does not pertain to everyone; ferritin levels and stored iron can remain safely contained, even when ferritin exceeds 150 ng/ml, if the body’s natural antioxidant defenses are working properly (see section on GGT)."

-------------------------------------

It appears to me when it comes to ferrtion, 50 is nifty, and this is the level I maintain through blood donation.  

 

More on iron and health at the Health-e-Iron site: 

http://www.healtheir...duction-therapy

Edited by synesthesia, 03 January 2015 - 05:11 PM.

[Blackkzeus]

Website about copper toxicity: http://drlwilson.com...ty_syndrome.htm

Edited by Ed Ntuk, 03 January 2015 - 09:17 PM.

[niner]

Website about copper toxicity: http://drlwilson.com...ty_syndrome.htm

 

Hmm.  This Doctor Wilson guy has some odd views.

[StevesPetRat]

Any thoughts on using supplemental chlorophyll complex to get 1 - 2 mg of (bound? hopefully) copper when not consuming other sources?

[niner]

Any thoughts on using supplemental chlorophyll complex to get 1 - 2 mg of (bound? hopefully) copper when not consuming other sources?

 

Natural chlorophyll doesn't have copper; it has magnesium.  The magnesium can be chemically replaced with copper, creating a semi-synthetic compound called chlorophyllin.  Here's some info from LPI.  I wouldn't use it, myself.

[pone11]

The Iron Disorders Institute has a page that gives a good indication of what an optimal level or target for stored iron (ferritin) should be.  Most labs set their upper limit of the normal range quite high, simply because most doctors consider it "normal" to accumulate substantial amounts of iron as we age, however it appears the "optimal" level is well out of triple digits set by most labs.  

 

http://www.irondisor...org/iron-tests/

 

 

The test they are recommending for iron overload is only about $69 direct, and I like the layout of the test report:

http://www.healtheiron.com/

[pone11]

The Iron Disorders Institute has a page that gives a good indication of what an optimal level or target for stored iron (ferritin) should be.  Most labs set their upper limit of the normal range quite high, simply because most doctors consider it "normal" to accumulate substantial amounts of iron as we age, however it appears the "optimal" level is well out of triple digits set by most labs.  

 

http://www.irondisor...org/iron-tests/

 

 

Looking at this more, it appears their tests are just the standard Labcorp tests.   What I don't understand is that irondisorders.org refers to transferrin saturation, whereas what Labcorp reports is "iron saturation".   Are these equivalent?

[Blackkzeus]

 

Website about copper toxicity: http://drlwilson.com...ty_syndrome.htm

 

Hmm.  This Doctor Wilson guy has some odd views.

 

 

Wow, didn't see that. I believe most of what he says about copper toxicity is correct because you can find other sources on the internet that say the same thing.  

[Dorian Grey]

Ferritin is the best measure of stored iron, and it's dirt cheap at $37 ($28 for members) from Life Extension (who also use LabCorp) .  You do not need to be fasting for a ferritin lab (although the instructions say you do), and you'll run into a long line of fasting blood draws if you go in before noon.  Go in the afternoon and tell them you're fasting...  You'll still get an accurate result.  

 

http://www.lef.org/v...itin-Blood-Test

 

Under chronic inflammatory conditions or infection the body pumps out empty "apoferritin" which can create a false positive for high iron.  The best confirmatory test if you get a high ferritin result would be transferrin saturation or TSAT.  Don't know what LabCorp is referring to with "iron saturation" but Wikipedia indicates TSAT is sometimes simply called iron saturation.  

 

Serum iron should be elevated when stored iron is elevated, but serum iron jumps around from day to day and is not a reliable measure of stored iron.  Total Iron Binding Capacity TIBC and Unsaturated Iron Binding Capacity UIBC can also indicate iron status, but again, Ferritin is the best and only test you need unless you pop a high number where a full Iron Panel would be wise.  An inflammation or infection false positive/high ferritin will typically be quite high (over 200), so if you get anything in a moderately elevated range 100 to 150, it is probably reliable and accurate.  The 100 to 150 range is typical for a middle age male who has been accumulating excess iron.  Menstruating females (for comparison) typically maintain ferritin around 30 to 50 until they reach menopause.  They also live longer than males, and heart disease is almost unheard of until they stop menstruating for a decade or so.  

 

Each 500cc donation of Whole Blood should drop ferritin by 30-50 points depending on how tightly each little ferritin unit is packed with iron.  Plasma or platelet donations do not lower iron at all, so donate Whole Blood only.  Avoid donating in the morning when you are dehydrated and hungry, or immediately after a big meal as digestion diverts a lot of blood to the stomach muscle.  Go in the afternoon, well hydrated and 2 to 3 hours after a good meal.  The needle they use is a BIG one...  About the size of a pencil lead.  It really doesn't hurt much more than a blood draw at the lab but it's impressive the first time you see it.  Youtube has a lot of videos on the donation experience you can watch so you know what to expect.  

 

Over 9 million donors give over 15 million units of blood in the US every year so it really isn't all that bizarre or unusual to do.  It's just seems that way to someone who's never done it before.  

Edited by synesthesia, 04 January 2015 - 07:45 AM.

[pone11]

Ferritin is the best measure of stored iron, and it's dirt cheap at $37 ($28 for members) from Life Extension (who also use LabCorp) .  You do not need to be fasting for a ferritin lab (although the instructions say you do), and you'll run into a long line of fasting blood draws if you go in before noon.  Go in the afternoon and tell them you're fasting...  You'll still get an accurate result.  

 

http://www.lef.org/v...itin-Blood-Test

 

Under chronic inflammatory conditions or infection the body pumps out empty "apoferritin" which can create a false positive for high iron.  The best confirmatory test if you get a high ferritin result would be transferrin saturation or TSAT.  Don't know what LabCorp is referring to with "iron saturation" but Wikipedia indicates TSAT is sometimes simply called iron saturation.  

 

 

I confirmed that the Labcorp "iron saturation" is in fact "transferrin saturation".

 

The healtheiron website also recommends getting the Labcorp GGT test, which is very well correlated to iron, and apparently independently predicts many diseases.

[pone11]

BTW, does typical RBC copper analysis distinguish between free and bound copper?  My impression is that it doesn't, and the free (or poorly liganded) copper number is critical, as it is the bad actor.

 

I think you make an important point here.   Iron and copper are critical metals in the body, binding to important proteins and enzymes, such as the complexes and ATP Synthase in the electron transport chain.   

 

Unfortunately, iron and copper are two of the main culprits for generating free radicals in the mitochondria.   So this is all about making sure you have the minimum required amounts (which is not a lot), but just as important it is about making sure you do not have any excess.   Because free metals are even more reactive and will be the source of a lot of free radicals.   

 

With iron, we know how to test for too much with ferritin and transferrin saturation, and we know how to get rid of excess, by donating blood.

 

With copper, I guess it gets more complicated if you have excess.   The free copper calculation is:

 

    Serum Copper - (3 * Ceruloplasmin)

 

and the accepted range is 5-15 ug/dL.

 

I calculated mine and I am high.  I am also high on Iron.   So I guess I need to jump on that.

 

Is chelation the only way to treat high copper?

[Dorian Grey]

Those with Wilson's take Zinc to keep copper in check, but I'd really hate to mega-dose anything.  Dietary limitation would be the way to go.  

 

Copper plumbing may be the main culprit...  Particularly when water sits in the pipe for long periods of time.  I've read ice machines in refrigerators with copper supply lines can be problematic.  The ice maker only cycles every day or so as you use the ice and the water in the supply line becomes full of copper as it sits waiting for the cycle.  Copper cubes!  

 

Don't know how good the home water filters are with copper, but it shouldn't be hard to find out.  I use one, and let the cold water run hard for a minute before I fill the pitcher to run stagnant water through the copper pipes and down the drain.  

[pone11]

Those with Wilson's take Zinc to keep copper in check, but I'd really hate to mega-dose anything.  Dietary limitation would be the way to go.  

 

Copper plumbing may be the main culprit...  Particularly when water sits in the pipe for long periods of time.  I've read ice machines in refrigerators with copper supply lines can be problematic.  The ice maker only cycles every day or so as you use the ice and the water in the supply line becomes full of copper as it sits waiting for the cycle.  Copper cubes!  

 

Don't know how good the home water filters are with copper, but it shouldn't be hard to find out.  I use one, and let the cold water run hard for a minute before I fill the pitcher to run stagnant water through the copper pipes and down the drain.  

 

Doctor's Data has a test where you send them water samples and they profile metals content.   

[Dorian Grey]

There are some municipalities with high copper water, but I believe it's not all that high.  

 

I'll bet the bulk of copper in water comes from copper plumbing.  Consuming water from these pipes when it has been sitting overnight, or in the scenario with the ice maker is what will give you a thumping big dose.  Avoid consuming water (or ice made from water) that has been sitting in copper plumbing for any length of time and all is good.  

[pone11]

I found a lab that claims to make a direct measurement of free unbound copper!   Here is the test:

http://ltd.aruplab.c...sts/Pub/0020596

 

Here is their sponsored research discussing their method:

http://ajcp.ascpjour...0.full.pdf html

 

I think it is a major find to be honest, and anyone who wants to know their copper status would be well-served to get not just their plasma and RBC levels, but also a direct measurement on the unbound "free" component.

[pone11]

More "goodness" here.  I found a free copper test from National Medical Labs:

http://www.nmslabs.c...m-Plasma/1333SP

 

and this can be ordered from Labcorp as Labcorp order number 279071.

[pone11]

More "goodness" here.  I found a free copper test from National Medical Labs:

http://www.nmslabs.c...m-Plasma/1333SP

 

and this can be ordered from Labcorp as Labcorp order number 279071.

 

As a follow up, I found out that Labcorp is NOT using metal free transfer tubes for serum it draws on any of its metal and mineral tests!!!  Because Labcorp is using a green top tube, and those tubes are NOT acid-washed, there is a chance of trace metal or mineral contamination that will significantly alter a test result.

 

The NMS page I reference above is very clear that the transfer tube must be royal blue and metal-free.  

 

It's amazing to me that a major national lab cares so little about the correctness of its tests that it would do something like this.

[bemoored]

 

Also of interest:

 

Front Aging Neurosci. 2014 May 16;6:92. doi: 10.3389/fnagi.2014.00092. eCollection 2014.
Alzheimer's disease causation by copper toxicity and treatment with zinc.
Brewer GJ.

Evidence will be presented that the Alzheimer's disease (AD) epidemic is new, the disease being very rare in the 1900s. The incidence is increasing rapidly, but only in developed countries. We postulate that the new emerging environmental factor partially causal of the AD epidemic is ingestion of inorganic copper from drinking water and taking supplement pills, along with a high fat diet. Inorganic copper can be partially directly absorbed and elevate the serum free copper pool. The Squitti group has shown that serum free copper is elevated in AD, correlates with cognition, and predicts cognition loss. Thus, our inorganic copper hypothesis fits well with the Squitti group data. We have also shown that AD patients are zinc deficient compared to age-matched controls. Because zinc is a neuronal protective factor, we postulate that zinc deficiency may also be partially causative of AD. We carried out a small 6 month double blind study of a new zinc formulation and found that in patients age 70 and over, it protected against cognition loss. Zinc therapy also significantly reduced serum free copper in AD patients, so efficacy may come from restoring normal zinc levels, or from lowering serum free copper, or from both.

PMID: 24860501 PMCID: PMC4030141 Free PMC Article

 

 

One of a string of enlightening threads I'm finding on longecity!  Just thought I'd mention, Bredersen incorporated optimizing the zinc/copper ratio as one component of a multI-modal protocol for Alzheimer's, referencing a review article by Brewer on the same subject.  The cognitive impairment experienced by nine out of ten participants was substantially improved in the uncontrolled trial:

 

Reversal of cognitive decline: A novel therapeutic program (impactaging.com)

[davis89x]

[...]In order to get down to 1 mg Cu per day, I would have to eat a pretty weird diet.  A lot of people get more that that just from water, without even considering food.  A 4 oz serving of potatoes has a milligram of copper, for example--  It's everywhere.[...]

 
On the other hand I found info like this:
 

Inorganic copper must not be confused with organic copper, the copper in food that is safely bound to protein. Inorganic copper is a simple salt of copper, not bound to anything, and is in part handled differently by the intestinal absorption mechanism, such that some of it contributes immediately to the serum free copper pool [6]. This pool has been shown by Squitti and her group to be expanded in AD [7], to correlate negatively with cognition [8], and to predict deterioration in cognition [9]. So, our inorganic copper hypothesis fits well with the work of the Squitti et al. group.

http://www.hindawi.c...ad/2013/586365/

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12405264

"

Copper-dependent functions for the prion protein.

Brown DR¹, Sassoon J.

Author information

Abstract

Prion diseases such as bovine spongiform encephalopathy and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease are fatal neurodegenerative diseases. These diseases are characterized by the conversion of a normal cellular protein, the prion protein, to an abnormal isoform that is thought to be responsible for both pathogenesis in the disease and the infectious nature of the disease agent. Understanding the biology and metabolism of the normal prion protein is therefore important for understanding the nature of these diseases. This review presents evidence for the normal function of the cellular prion protein, which appears to depend on its ability to bind copper (Cu). There is now considerable evidence that the prion protein is an antioxidant. Once the prion protein binds Cu, it may have an activity like that of a superoxide dismutase. Conversion of the prion protein to an abnormal isoform might lead to a loss of antioxidant protection that could be responsible for neurodegeneration in the disease."

Can anyone explain whether this means excess copper or copper toxicity would mean increased odds of developing sporadic prion disease?

 

[ironfistx]

Remember that zinc and copper have a co-relationship, and people who supplement high doses of zinc are at particular risk of falling short of copper. If you don't supplement either it is highly unlikely that you have optimal levels from diet alone.

A handful of times now I have supplemented zinc. Originally at 50mg day, and I am quite sure I developed tendonitis, or something which felt like it, by copper deficiency.

Later I did 12.5mg 5 times a week for libido and developed tendonitis.

[zorba990]

Acu-Cell (hair mineral analysis) has an interesting page on copper: http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

Their historical records seem to indicate copper deficiency is almost unheard of, and excess is the norm in most populations as they age.
I like their opinion that most trace mineral issues are not related to deficiencies, but rather to isolated and individual mineral excesses that result in imbalances.

My own research seems to indicate it's very hard to be truly deficient in most any trace mineral, even if you live on junk food and beer. It is excesses and imbalances that create problems. The over-mineralization theory of aging and disease is one of my favorite topics of discussion and I feel chelation to more youthful mineral profiles has been the fountain of youth for me.

I donate blood to lower iron and take IP6 to chelate excess trace minerals. My hair was going gray at my temples 15 years ago, but since I've been lowering iron, it's gone back to brown. My God, I'm getting younger!

Don't supplement minerals (if you're over 30)... Chelate them! My only exceptions to this rule are magnesium (the most common mineral deficiency) and zinc, which is too important to ever run short on. As I take IP6 which chelates these, I do supplement them in low doses, well away from my IP6 fountain of youth pill.

I think the following passage from Perfect Health Diet is worth quoting here:
"In a human copper restriction trial, a modest reduction of copper intake from 1.38 milligrams per day to 1 milligram per day produced heart trouble in four of twenty-three subjects, including one heart attack. The authors commented:
'In the history of conducting numerous human studies at the Beltsville Human Nutrition Research Center involving participation by 337 subjects, there had previously been no instances of any health problem related to heart function. During the 11 weeks of the present study in which the copper density of the diets fed the subjects was reduced....4 out of 23 subjects were diagnosed as having heart-related abnormalities.'"

I agree very few people have copper deficiencies. But if you do have one, the cost of that is extremely high. So, rather than following blind advice to never supplement, I would rather be the person who knows my copper status inside the RBC cell (not so much in plasma), and who adjusts diet or supplementation to reflect my status. If you supplement zinc at high levels, that will make you go low on copper, so following your advice to supplement zinc and simultaneously chelate everything else, could result in a critical nutrient like copper going far below the minimum required levels. Good science should always be based on having a hypothesis, coming up with an experiment, and then testing the result. Most hypotheses are flawed, and only by testing do you get to reality.

Yea I can confirm an experience with copper deficiency. At one point I was regularly taking 50mg zinc (either picolinate or monomethionine), Green Tea Extract, & N-Acetyl-Cysteine which all are antagonistic to copper. I was experiencing waves of apathy, where it became difficult to smile or laugh genuinely. It took me a while to introduce copper as a supplement into my routine because I feared copper toxicity, but I had exhausted so many other "solutions", so I went for it. Almost the very next day I regained a lot of my emotional affect back.

However the twist is that I have been regularly taking copper for some time now thinking it was necessary (without blood or hair testing to confirm a deficiency, stupid, I know) and now I suspect I'm dealing with mild copper toxicity.

My point is that (even though copper toxicity is very real) those of us who use supplements and/or who radically alter their diets for longevity, could be self-inducing a copper deficiency, which is just as real as an excess.


Potential to lower Cu Levels:
N-Acetyl-Cysteine
Green Tea Extract (EGCG)
Resveratrol (mobilizes endogenous Cu. Good for cancer, but is this beneficial for Cu toxicity?)
Other Polyphenols w/ chelating properties
Vitamin C
L-Taurine
Alpha Lipoic Acid (strong chelator)
Mercury, Cadmium, & Zinc (compete for absorption)
Iron, Manganese
Molybdenum & Sulfur (bind to copper in intestines?)
Carnitine and/or ALCAR?? (study done on hens)


Some Evidence:
N-acetylcysteine attenuates copper overload-induced oxidative injury in brain of rat.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22246790
Electroanalysis of the interaction between (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) and amyloid-β in the presence of copper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23443273
Effect of taurine on toxicity of copper in rats.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/9609396
Carnitine supplementation modulates high dietary copper-induced oxidative toxicity and reduced performance in laying hens.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21710373
Resveratrol mobilizes endogenous copper in human peripheral lymphocytes leading to oxidative DNA breakage: a putativemechanism for chemoprevention of cancer.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20119749
A paradoxical relationship between Resveratrol and copper (II) with respect to degradation of DNA and RNA
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4833056/


(this is a double post from another related thread)

I beleive many of the above will also bind manganese and you may see hypermobile joints and other ligament issues in that case as well. I recall giving myself gray hairs from excessive msm supplementation.

Edited by zorba990, 05 February 2017 - 02:02 AM.