38 replies to this topic

[ambivalent]

Hello,

 

The evolutionary argument underpinning the regenerative effects in evidence both during and after CR/fasting is one of the body being challenged by scarcity: those responding best to the demanding circumstance win out. Both Cynthia Kenyon and Mark Mattson made similar points in their respective TED talks. Surely such reasoning invites the scientist to investigate how the body will respond to the even more critical challenge of a lack of both food and water - a scenario mimiced by those who dry fast (including myself). Yet there is no documented research that I am aware of even in rat models testing this condition. The internet consists mainly of anecdotal accounts and one primary source that of a Doctor Filanov whose thoughts and experiences are only accessible via an awkward google-translated book. Would anyone care to reason why, from an evolutionary standpoint, the body would respond, for a period, positively to a deficiency of one vital need in food, but respond detrimentally over a relatively short period of time at the denial of the vastly more critical resource of water?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

[xEva]

But where did you see that 'the body' would "respond detrimentally over a relatively short period of time at the denial of water?"

Water is more vital when we eat than when we fast. Dry fasting wins over water fasting, mainly because people, especially novices, drink too much water, especially in the first 2 days of a water fast, when it is needed the least. The matter is made worse, when they drink distilled water. Some already sodium deficient "health-nuts" develop electrolyte imbalance in as little as 4 days on it. Electrolyte imbalance does not happen on a dry fast.

Climate is also an important consideration. Filonov has his clinic in Altai mountains, near a small river and, in addition, he organizes daily excursions to local lakes and river parks. This way, with proper preparation, his fasters can go for 5,7, 9 and even 11 days without water. But this would be impossible in a dry climate of a desert.

In a normal climate just about anyone can dry-fast safely for up to 3 days. ..though it's more important for an extended dry fast that a special special diet is followed prior to it. Its aim is to ensure that no vast quantities of heavy food turn to bricks in the intestines during the fast.

During the first 2 days of a fast, the body lives off liver glycogen and when glycogen is used, plenty of H2O is released into the circulation. In addition, the kidneys dump some sodium in the first 2 days of a fast, and with it they dump excess water. So, water is not really needed in the first 2 days of a fast -- in a normal climate and with empty gut that is.

Though on the 3rd day things start getting challenging, but, from what I understand (I myself never dry fasted for longer than 48h), on a dry fast a higher concentration of key hormones and also ketones is reached quicker and so the adaptation to "ketosis of starvation" goes smoother and quicker.

Still it must be stressed, especially for the novices' sake, that the main advantage of a dry fast over water fast is in avoidance of the pitfalls of the water fast, when people, lead by a misguided belief that they "must flush out the toxins", drink too much water. The right thing to do is to drink only to thirst, and never in response to hunger. And yes, indeed, it's easiest to drink almost nothing in the first 2 days.


For how long did you dry fast? I heard some marvelous stories about long term dry fasting (5-7-11 days), especially when done as 'cascade', like Filonov practices. Though I believe there is "a type" for whom dry-fasting is preferred. I'm not sure I'm that type myself.

Edited by xEva, 22 January 2015 - 02:17 AM.

[ambivalent]

Thank you for your extensive, informative repsonse xEva. I concluded the quoted statement to be the implicit view of those who believe dry-fasting to be senseless pursuit: those accepting the scientific rationale of the evolution of fasting, but affirm one must have water, that dry-fasting is bad, will assume the body would not respond to scarcity of water in a qualitatively comparable way to the reduced intake of energy, despite water being the more critical need. Extensive periods of drought would surely have been a challenge many of our ancestors faced and no doubt they'd have benefitted from an improved biological response to this enviromental stressor as it is claimed they were able to the stressor of a depletion of food availability. Very few people, it would seem, even within the fasting community believe dry-fasting to be a good idea: it may well not be, but it surely beckons further research. In fact I wrote to one leading reasearcher  a year old and the response I received was that it was 'risky, but could work'. Given the cascade of research in recent years documenting the benefits of water-fasting, it seems incredible, no effort is being made to explore what must surely be the realistic possiblity of dry-fasting producing much greater effects than fasting on water . 

 

As for my experiences, I took an interest in fasting around 30 months ago - I tried low calorie days, briefly, then moved on to water fasting - peaking at a 7-day water fast just over a couple of years ago. At the point of breaking the fast I was on my knees, I was though, most likely in error thoughout in the manner you suggested by drinking way too much water, to placate hunger pangs and as a response resaction to the rather daunting circumstance of enduring a week on water. With limited experience of water fasting (and not undertaking the fast correctly) it is difficult for me to contrast with dry fasting but I believe I experienced notable differences, particularly in the expression of old injuries and general aches and pains. I found the dry fast easier as you suggest, than water-fasting, however, one cautionary note - towards during the final full day (as I recall) of a 4.5 dry fast was a signifcant quickening of the heart a couple to a couple of minor events (moving with moderate pace up the stairs, and some computer-related frustration) - certainly take it easy. I agree a dry fast is not somehting to dive in to, and ideally not unsupervised (especially, naturally, for an extended period)

 

Reading around people do seem to have different responses, that said, the third day of my first 3.5 day first, two years ago, was quite tough, my mouth was very dry, but since then I've of undergone at least one 3-day (a couple fo weeks ago), two four and half day and many 36 hour dry-fasts - I don't recall my mouth as dry it was that first time. So perhaps the body learns to be more efficient as its exposure to fasting increases: I would generally break if my mouth is no longer moist or at worst sticky.

 

The third day of my most recent fast I awoke to a rather exalted state, I felt tremendous - alert and highly empathetic. I also experienced a very unsual dream-state, in what I felt was an untypical state of consiousness (for a dream) - instinctively, I  questioned if it was lucid dream (I've not experienced one), but I couldn't label it as such as I wasn't aware I was dreaming. There were no out of the ordinary aches and pains, save an ankle which was I felt for a while but which was soon resolved. It is common for me to experience fairly light ephermeral aches and pains during a fast - but in the early days some of the more severe old injuries flare-ups lasted weeks after.  

 

Some of Filanovs claims (biological mechanisms of dry-fasting & the scaling to water fasting) must surely be speculative - he has though written extensively but it is tough to read. But I do believe he most likely has had great results. If you have any good dry-fasting material I'd be grateful if you would post. Also do you have any thoughts on c60 and dry-fasting?

 

 

For anyone interested:

 

dry fasting in the ukraine and a talk by the woman running the retreat. I liked the lecture but it was not as rigourous, scientific or as comprehensive as I'd have hoped.

 

Articles by an experienced dry-faster Milena Albert at the Fasting Connection (Interestingly the resident expert on the site, who runs a retreat, advises against his clients dry-fasting)

 

Dry fasting - myths and reality by Dr Filonov

 

 

Once again thanks for your response.

Edited by ambivalent, 25 January 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[niner]

xEva's warning about over-hydration is good.  The opposite extreme is also problematic, if not moreso.  Dehydration can permanently injure or kill you, so this is not something to rush into blindly.  You really need to know what you're doing here.

[ambivalent]

xEva's warning about over-hydration is good.  The opposite extreme is also problematic, if not moreso.  Dehydration can permanently injure or kill you, so this is not something to rush into blindly.  You really need to know what you're doing here.

 

Hi niner,

 

One of the claims made by Filonov is that the body can extract quite a large amount of water from fats - I'm not sure of the exact figure but it was I believe between 1-2 pints.

 

One indicator I find reassuring is urination: in the morning two days in of the recent I produced a decent volume. Also a stool 3 days in suggests the body (to me) is functioning well. Critically a moist mouth too is a good sign. But presumably there is a considerable and fairly immediate risk of dehydration (and doubtless other problems) if you start to create a demand of water you body cannot meet from drawing water from fats.  I read of one experienced faster who was climbing the walls he was so thirsty: this is too risky for me. At no point was I desperately thirsty, but I have no proof the above are defintive indicators of a body not on the brink of dehydration. So I am far from certain, but I am pretty careful and there are people who venture towards double figures but naturally dehydration can occur very easily in bad conditions.

 

I'm fairly active 1-2 days in, but after that I will take it easy and mostly rest.  I don't recommend dry-fasting (as I can water fasting) to people, though my experiences are positive, as there is so little scientific-evidence available (unlike water), and naturally potential risk.

 

This is certainly not a thread to affirm or encourage dry-fasting (I certainly don't have the background and or sufficient experience to do so) but hoppefully to canvass opinions and experiences and in particular what sort evolved response makes sense to a scarcity of water & why it would be contrary to that of limited food.

Edited by ambivalent, 25 January 2015 - 07:50 PM.

[Multivitz]

If one educates theirselves with knowledge about high blood acidity signs then it can't do any harm. I personally wouldn't go over 3 days, I'm very sparing with my water anyway maybe an extended fast with minimal water for me once this fungus leave me (don't ask lol).

[xEva]

I have read Filonov's book in original. You are right, his "explanation" of how dry-fasting works is a mere speculation. However, his empirical knowledge and methods he developed are undisputedly very valuable. Regarding endogenous water, it is true, when glycogen and/or fat are broken down and utilized, H2O is released. I don't have the refs handy, but the number he gives sounds right.

Regarding the concerns about dehydration, you have to realize that the volume of blood plasma is determined by the amount of sodium in it. The concentration of Na is maintained in a very narrow range. So when Na goes down (quickly on too much water), the volume of blood plasma diminishes. Kidneys work hard to maintain the right concentration of Na. While they dump excess water, they try to conserve Na, but this can't be done beyond a certain gradient and some Na is always lost in urine. This stresses the kidneys and when they can't keep up, the excess water seeps from blood vessels into the extracellular environment, causing edema.

And so, paradoxically, drinking too much water, just as drinking too little, results in the same condition: low volume of plasma and => thickening of the blood. Though I must say that the first case, when one drinks too much, feels much worse than when one drinks none or too little (for many reasons that go beyond just the blood volume). That's the main reason why many novice fasters, having done water fasting all wrong, soon sway into another extreme and start swearing by dry fasting. But I believe that both extremes are unwise. 

On a dry fast, when water becomes scarce, the opposite thing happens from when one drinks too  much: it gets drawn from the tissues into the blood vessels, presumably, with much of what is dissolved in it -- to be filtered by kidneys and liver. I believe in this lies the main therapeutic effect of a dry fast, i.e. the extracellular environment gets forcefully renewed (when the dry fast is broken). Some also say that "heavy water" (with deuterium) gets dumped this way, but that's a speculation.

There are conditions, like what used to be called "dropsy" and various edemas, etc., where dry fasting seems very therapeutic, and people with those conditions sort of "know it by heart" and are naturally drawn to it. As for water fasting, drinking lots of water -- with electrolytes, the main of which is Na++ -- can also be very therapeutic for another set of conditions. Alas, there are a lot of misconceptions in fasting communities where it is widely believed that salt is poison to be avoided at all costs, especially on a fast. That comes from scarce and outdated fasting literature by the likes of Shelton and Bragg. I personally read the scientific literature, both in ru and en, starting with Cahill and Owen in 1960s and then following those who referenced them.

In 2013 a study on dry fasting came out, the first as far as I know, 10 healthy adults, 5 days, "Anthropometric, Hemodynamic, Metabolic, and Renal Responses during 5 Days of Food and Water Deprivation" here: http://www.karger.co...FullText/357718

Edited by xEva, 26 January 2015 - 01:32 AM.

[Multivitz]

magnesium and potassium combine to form an small oxygen carrying molecule that feeds the cells where blood cells can't reach. Sodium is not all its cracked up to be. Magnesium acts as a superior electrolyte and forms a more friendlier yet potent digestive enzyme. This whole system works with the immune system, nervous system and bones. In many spiritual practices sodium chloride is prohibited. Magnesium is found in nature perfectly balanced with potassium in chlorophyll. Magnesium also lowers excess sodium levels. It enabled me to see my light and experience the zen state in the day(I didnt close my heart chakaras for 2 weeks) was awake for days on end without fatigue minimal sleep woke up fresh everymorning. Looking at flowers and having peak experiences at will, having the birds sing for me (now that freaked me out at first but soon realised I was shouting from my heart, they didn't mind bless em they just sung earth's tune out loud in harmony with me shouting like a fool without being audible). Fasting works but when everything is in place and D3 levels are high expect the truth of humanity to visit you not just a detox.

[niner]

Here is a source that discusses in detail the amount of water that can be created by the oxidation of fatty acids. One gram of palmitate yields 9 ml water. Fat contains a glycerol esterified to three fatty acids, so is slightly less energy dense than palmitate, but not a lot. If we approximate the water available from fat oxidation as 9ml/gm, then one pound of fat will produce:

1 lb * (454g/lb) * (9ml water/gm) = 4086 ml = 4 liters.

 

That's a lot of water.  This is how camels can go for long periods without drinking.   Humans aren't camels, however.  We lose a lot of water to respiration and also to perspiration.  If I was going to do a dry fast, I'd want a way to monitor my electrolyte levels.  It would be ironic to die from something that was supposed to make you healthier.

[xEva]

Here is a source that discusses in detail the amount of water that can be created by the oxidation of fatty acids. One gram of palmitate yields 9 ml water. Fat contains a glycerol esterified to three fatty acids, so is slightly less energy dense than palmitate, but not a lot. If we approximate the water available from fat oxidation as 9ml/gm, then one pound of fat will produce:

1 lb * (454g/lb) * (9ml water/gm) = 4086 ml = 4 liters.
 
That's a lot of water.  This is how camels can go for long periods without drinking.   Humans aren't camels, however.  We lose a lot of water to respiration and also to perspiration.  If I was going to do a dry fast, I'd want a way to monitor my electrolyte levels.  It would be ironic to die from something that was supposed to make you healthier.

niner, I did not look at your source yet, but there is something terribly, terribly wrong with your calculation lol. There is no way in hell that a pound of fat (~0.5 kg) could contain 4 liters of water (4 kg).

And guess you did not bother reading my lengthy posts above. Here is a brief summary for you: it's a water fast, not a dry fast, when one should monitor the electrolyte levels.

Also, having read over the years hundreds of fasting reports, though it's true that people put themselves through unnecessary suffering and even sabotage their fasts by drinking much water without supplementing electrolytes, no one ever died of electrolyte imbalance. There was a death though, about a year ago, on curezone. But that woman died of starvation (as in fasting too long).

[xEva]

Multivitz, don't know who clicked on those red "feedback" buttons, it was not me. Though I can see what must have put them off. There is a lot of misconceptions in your posts about Na, K and Mg and their roles in the body. Also, it's not true that "In many spiritual practices sodium chloride is prohibited." It's New Age imitations of a real thing where salt is prohibited.

But thanks for sharing your fasting experience. Most people cannot imagine that one can experience a surge of energy and euphoria on a fast. ..and yes, the perceptions become super-sharp.

[Multivitz]

I beg to differ on the sodium use as Qigong practice limits its use, as does the macrobiotic diet. For super sacred training of Qigong(up in the mountains!), which very little is known anywhere, adding salt to food is prohibited. Those are the guys who put chopsticks through 2 inch thick teak table tops! Maybe theres just enough in the spring water to prevent ill health? I gradually went into my fast with regorous exercise, raw eggs, sun bathing, limited water(3-4 urinations a day as per macrobiotics), 0-7 grams of sodium acsorbate(theres the sodium, but no Chloride!!) raw veg, no fruit(its too yin, even strawberries have a chemical that inhibits cell energy proliferation!) and rice(for the first 2 weeks!). I was just going with the flow at the time and had some macrobiotic knowledge. At the time I could push myself to think of 6 different treads of thought simultaniously, afterwards I could apreciate when a woman multitasks, I learnt myself speed reading which had always puzzled me. In one of my meditations I regressed back to when I was  20 months old and confirmed the experiences with my parents, they were amazed, I could have gone back further but I wanted to wipe the slate clean. My personallity had changed, but I managed to join my old self back but paying hed to new found truths. I tried afterwards to explain to myself what went down, biologically, scientifically as best as I could, and after many years of trial, science study, I have a solid factual foundation of very, very deep insights to a host of subjects. Still I learn stuff from others most days, but the big questions have happy answers for me, so my hunger for knowledge is waining lol.

[Mind]

 

 

no one ever died of electrolyte imbalance.

 

Some people have: http://en.wikipedia....er_intoxication, but it is rare and due to water drinking contests mostly.

[xEva]

no one ever died of electrolyte imbalance.

 
Some people have: http://en.wikipedia....er_intoxication, but it is rare and due to water drinking contests mostly.

Yes, what I meant was that no-one died of electrolyte imbalance during a fast. That's because the very first symptom of Na+ deficiency is water aversion, i.e. plain water starts tasting bad. And so people can only sip a bit at a time and if they try to gulp down some they promptly throw up.

Edited by xEva, 31 January 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[niner]

 

Here is a source that discusses in detail the amount of water that can be created by the oxidation of fatty acids. One gram of palmitate yields 9 ml water. Fat contains a glycerol esterified to three fatty acids, so is slightly less energy dense than palmitate, but not a lot. If we approximate the water available from fat oxidation as 9ml/gm, then one pound of fat will produce:

1 lb * (454g/lb) * (9ml water/gm) = 4086 ml = 4 liters.

niner, I did not look at your source yet, but there is something terribly, terribly wrong with your calculation lol. There is no way in hell that a pound of fat (~0.5 kg) could contain 4 liters of water (4 kg).

And guess you did not bother reading my lengthy posts above. Here is a brief summary for you: it's a water fast, not a dry fast, when one should monitor the electrolyte levels.

Also, having read over the years hundreds of fasting reports, though it's true that people put themselves through unnecessary suffering and even sabotage their fasts by drinking much water without supplementing electrolytes, no one ever died of electrolyte imbalance. There was a death though, about a year ago, on curezone. But that woman died of starvation (as in fasting too long).

 

 

A pound of fat can not produce 4 liters of water by simple combustion, but 89% of the water produced strictly via oxidation comes from the oxygen in air that is used to oxidize the hydrogen in the fat.  Here is the approximate oxidation reaction for palmitic acid:

 

C₁₆H₃₂O_{2 +  24O2 -> 16CO2 + 16H2O}

 

454g palmitate * (mol/256g palmitate) * (16 mol water/mol palmitate) * (18.02 ml water/mol) = 511 ml.  That's a fair amount of water, but it's only one eighth the amount claimed in that document.   They claim that all that extra water is produced via the oxidation of NADH and FADH2 and via the ATP synthesis reaction.  The claimed net production of water is 129 mols per mol of palmitate.  I suppose that's true if you are only metabolizing a small amount of palmitate, like tens of grams, but how much NADH and FADH2 do we have?  All that hydrogen has to come from somewhere.   That source implied that you could run that reaction forever, as the camel crosses the desert or whatnot.  Now that I think about, that's probably wrong.  That was a good catch on your part. 

 

As far as watching electrolyte levels, my real concern there was dehydration.  I thought that you'd see hypernatremia, which is an electrolyte concentration problem, but dehydration is also commonly hypovolemic while maintaining reasonable tonicity.   I just wouldn't want to be dehydrated, that's all.  There must be a good way to measure it, but I'm not sure what it is.

Edited by niner, 31 January 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[niner]

No one ever died of an electrolyte imbalance?  It's quite common; water intoxication would be a relatively  unusual way for it to occur. Lots of people die from electrolyte imbalances.  Maybe they aren't common in a fast if the faster knows what they're doing, but this is the internet.  Noobs abound.

[xEva]

Re hypernatremia, imo this can happen only when one ingests lots of salt (or some other source of Na, like there has been a talk lately about sodium butyrate). This comes with unbelievable thirst and then plain water tastes like manna. According to the article linked above hypernatremia did not develop on a 5-day dry fast. The urine is produced daily throughout the fast, and healthy kidneys manage to maintain the proper balance.

[xEva]

No one ever died of an electrolyte imbalance?  It's quite common; water intoxication would be a relatively  unusual way for it to occur. Lots of people die from electrolyte imbalances.  Maybe they aren't common in a fast if the faster knows what they're doing, but this is the internet.  Noobs abound.

I missed this post. And you probably missed mine above, where I describe the built-in physiological mechanisms which prevent a faster from continuing drinking water once Na+ becomes deficient. Again: people develop strong aversion to water --despite thirst! When they force themselves to gulp down some, they throw up within minutes. And they can't help that. That's a reflex.

Funny how it shows that our physiology, which evolved for hundreds of millions of years, is much smarter than that puny newest addition we're so proud about

[niner]

Hyponatremia is unusual, but I'm using the term "electrolyte imbalance" fairly broadly-  either too much or too little of any of our various ions.   As one example, hyperkalemia can be lethal.  It's not very difficult even for healthy people to become dehydrated (not related to fasting), and there are all manner of problems that crop up in unhealthy people that result in electrolyte issues. That's not counting people doing stupid things like eating or supplementing in very unhealthy ways.  There are a lot of sick people out there, and a lot of people who do things that are ill-advised.

[xEva]

Hyponatremia is not that unusual. A mild form of it is quite common in the "health-nut" community, where it is widely believed that salt is poison. These people do not salt their food nor do they eat any junk or processed foods which usually contain a fair amount of sodium. If they also like coffee or any other diuretic (== euphemism for Na-removal) this aggravates their deficiency.
 
There is a simple test for Na deficiency, which works in healthy people: if you feel mildly thirsty and yet plain water tastes terrible to you and you would rather drink anything but plain water, this is a sure sign of low sodium. Add a pinch of salt to the same water and see how suddenly it becomes delicious.
 
Regarding the rest of electrolytes, one has to be on a weird diet to develop a deficiency in any of them. Excesses can happen with supplementation, but healthy kidneys are pretty good at maintaining the balance, despite their owner's follies.

Edited by xEva, 01 February 2015 - 05:36 AM.

[Multivitz]

Chew your drinks and drink your foods, or, sip your water, or throw up lol The vomit reflex is dependant on the ion balance between the stomach content and the nerves lining the stomach, but also pressure/presense of contents on a sensitive lining. The mid brain is heavily linked to the stomach, and relies on Niacinimide(made in the Thyroid gland)to biuld Calcium ion content in the nerves, OCD, travel sickness, fear of spiders, fear of speed, nausia from map reading whilst moving, restless legs, are some symptoms of this Calcium Deficient condition caused by low Niacinimide(Not necessarily minerals like Sodium, charged or otherwise!) this is a very well understood mechanism of phsiology.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My advice is don't be a hardcore faster, walk before you can run. I used to do it once a week, and a longer one every year. After a long fast, don't just start eating straight away at the end of it!! Buy a good fasting book, preferably a book that finds YOU! Read up online. People do die of too much calcium, to little magnesium, too much water, or too little water. Minerals are the chief hydrator of the blood, so a Maple syrup and lemon juiced water may ease people into a fast. If you're 100% healthy, why not have a dry fast. If in doubt leave it out! All biological things have water around them, don't fall into the trap of consumming inorganic minerals. Ok some minerals are made organic by you and your flora, but it's inorganic/waste products that block energy pathways to begin with! A dry fast may antagonis things, you wouldn't want your stomach to dissolve itself now would you? Coffee is an insecticide, certain types are used for special enimas. Bio light fields are enhanced when water is at its optimal in a biological system, which is at the lowest concentration, that goes along way to explaining the feelgood factor of dry fasting, just beware of dangerous acidic conditions/symptoms! I hope this lot helps. Remember most soils are low in minerals and modern agriculture's ways depletes soil bacteria, the plant uses the bacteria to make its minerals absorbable(organic). Selenium is almost inexistant, zinc used to come from fishmeal over fields, magnesium from pot ash, how do you know you are getting enough of the most fundemental of simple things? Then ofcourse there's transmutation!!

Edited by Multivitz, 03 February 2015 - 05:42 PM.

[ambivalent]

I have read Filonov's book in original. You are right, his "explanation" of how dry-fasting works is a mere speculation. However, his empirical knowledge and methods he developed are undisputedly very valuable. Regarding endogenous water, it is true, when glycogen and/or fat are broken down and utilized, H2O is released. I don't have the refs handy, but the number he gives sounds right.

Regarding the concerns about dehydration, you have to realize that the volume of blood plasma is determined by the amount of sodium in it. The concentration of Na is maintained in a very narrow range.  [...]

There are conditions, like what used to be called "dropsy" and various edemas, etc., where dry fasting seems very therapeutic[...]

 

Alas, there are a lot of misconceptions in fasting communities where it is widely believed that salt is poison to be avoided at all costs, especially on a fast.[...]
In 2013 a study on dry fasting came out, the first as far as I know, 10 healthy adults, 5 days, "Anthropometric, Hemodynamic, Metabolic, and Renal Responses during 5 Days of Food and Water Deprivation" here: http://www.karger.co...FullText/357718

 

Hi xEva,

 

Thank you very much for posting the paper on dry-fasting, that was a terrific find. Hopefully it will serve to partly reassure and placate those family and friends of mine who are, understandably, concerned :-)

 

Given the apparent simplicity of the study and also since it is the first paper on dry-fasting it seems remarkable it took them 6 years to publish! I was surprised they had them exercising so much, seems tough to insist on this towards the end of the fast, particularly as they indicated, there is little mainstream understanding of dry fasting. Are there any comparative results available for water-fasting? It was also useful to note how they came off the fast - I've suspected I forced my body to return to normal diet too quickly.

 

What source would you use a guide to water-fasting? I'm not planning to go down that route, but I suspect some people I know might.

 

On camels! I dived into Filanov's book the other day and I see he discusses the remarkable immune systems they have, which he presumably attributes to their routine abstention form water. I found a couple of articles on research attempting to use camel's antibodies to fight disease - one pretty old, another in 2011

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/1702393.stm

 

http://www.emirates2...-01-12-1.341187

 

 

On negative feedback - to be honest, I question its value on forums. Affirmations are useful since it effectively substitutes posts which simply wish to convey agreement or to acknowledge a good point. Rarely is it sufficient, though, to state 'I disagree', explanations are often courteous, useful and necessary - a blob of red circumvents that requirement: it can make for lazy discussion. Also, it can force posters to conform to a certain mindset because individuals will anticipate a thumbs down and perhaps become disinclined to continue posting: nobody wants to see a splatter of red every time they post. In addition, to disagree, can often be respectful and not warrant a '-1'. Also off-topic, needs references are valid feedback but perhaps should warrant an amber response. Personally, I'd most likely only use negative feedback for offensive remarks which a simple rebuke might avoid the possibility of a thread decaying into a spat. That all said the standard is pretty good here.   

 

Once again, thanks for your contributions xEva.

                                                                                                              

 

Edited by Michael, 23 February 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[ambivalent]

Update: back in February I completeted a 5-day dry fast. It came on the back of a 3-day fast a couple of weeks earlier; I'd not previously experienced lengthy fasts so close together. I recall a sense of surprise that little seemed to be going on - ususally I'd expect to notice quite a few aches and pains, some fleeting others persistent. But towards the end of the of the fast I noticed my skin had become incredibly soft; it was quite an experience, simply youthful. However I wouldn't say it was visibly transformative: my face didn't seem different but naturally it was fairly gaunt.  I'd undertaken a couple of comparable length fasts previously and I'd not noticed this before so I wondered whether the proximity of the 3-day had made a difference: would skin rejuvenation be the lower priority job the body was free to undertake in the subsequent fast given the more routine repair work had only recently been performed? 

 

Anyhow, there was also considerable caution. Breaking the fast was difficult, discpline was naturally tough, I sipped water at too frequent intervals and I felt a heaviness and discomfort from drinking. I stayed on just water for another 12 hours until mid-day, sleeping in periods during the night. The following day I broke with fruit and veg and felt pretty good until later in the evening I visited a friend when I noticed brain-fog descend. Very briefly during the conversation I noticed a word or two slur but in general I felt very slow in thinking. My friend subesequently humoursly added that it was like witnessing a closing down sale. I seemed to be ok the next and he remarked I seemed fine when catching up a couple of days later. After this I began a high-dose course of c60 and the day after (or the day itself) of taking I experienced a real hightened state of awareness. I dry-fasted at times during the follow 17 days of the c60 course with no problem. My skin felt great and did so for many weeks after; c60 may naturally may have augmented the effect. 

 

The slowness of thought is naturally a concern; so I need to research and plan to better break the fast and hopefully avoid the danger of rehydrating too quickly next time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[niner]

I can understand how not eating food might provide a useful hormetic response.  It's less clear to me what the hormetic mechanism might be from not drinking water.  Is this something that's well understood?  Are there demonstrated benefits from dry fasting that aren't seen with a water fast?   During the evolution of multicellular life, periods of unavailability of food and/or water were presumably common.  It makes sense that we would evolve ways for successfully dealing with them.  But.. what's the benefit of dry fasting?

[son of shen nong]

Word of caution.

I dry fasted for 5 days maybe 18 months ago & ended up w some kidney stones.  Textbook symptoms.  Flank pain & pain upon urination.  Kept drinking water @ that point & slowly ( & painfully) passed some sediment after 3 or 4 hours.  By way of passing them, each time I urinated pain decreased a little as stones descended.  Good thing they were small.  I'd hate to pass a big one.

[ambivalent]

Hi niner, 

 

Xeva will provide a better response as he has read Dr Filanov's book (he has a website too but it needs translation). The only research is the one he linked above:

 

http://www.karger.co...FullText/357718

 

I've seldom noted anyone with negative accounts of dry-fasting; Andre Kruger at the fastingconnection doesn't recommend it to his clients at his retreat (although they have a dry fasting forum) and I seem to recall him remarking a few years back that he thought the results were inconsistent. There is also a forum at the curezone.

 

I'll try and dig it up what Filanov says but, very loosely, I seem to recall he asserts the dry-fasted environment naturally creates fierce competition for water: weaker cells are sacrificed (incinerated he claims) and unpleasant organisms that flourish in hydrated environments struggle to survive.

 

Unless our ancestors rarely deprived of water for long periods, I'd have thought it likely we would have developed a competitive response to water-deprivation as we have to starvation.

 

I wrote to a leading researcher in fasting around 18 months ago asking him what he thought about dry-fasting and he replied 'risky, but it could work'.  I sent him the Karger paper but I didn't receive a reply. Naturally, I'd like to be more certain but my experiences have been by and large very good (except for my above breaking experience); unfortunately it feels it will be some time before there is further research.

 

 

[ambivalent]

Word of caution.

I dry fasted for 5 days maybe 18 months ago & ended up w some kidney stones.  Textbook symptoms.  Flank pain & pain upon urination.  Kept drinking water @ that point & slowly ( & painfully) passed some sediment after 3 or 4 hours.  By way of passing them, each time I urinated pain decreased a little as stones descended.  Good thing they were small.  I'd hate to pass a big one.

 

Thanks for the information SSN and I'm sorry you had a rough experience. Had you dry-fasted much before? Did you pass urine comfortably and frequently during the fast? I've passed urine daily and on some days stools during my fast. It might be helpful to the community if you posted your experience on say the curezone forum.

 

I experienced considerable flank pain during my first 3-day dry fast in Dec 2012 and some in possibly the following fast, but none since. I was and still am unclear whether it was kidney pain  as many old injuries flared up and I had experienced lower back problems years before.

Edited by ambivalent, 19 May 2015 - 12:12 AM.

[niner]

I experienced considerable flank pain during my first 3-day dry fast in Dec 2012 and some in possibly the following fast, but none since. I was and still am unclear whether it was kidney pain  as many old injuries flared up and I had experienced lower back problems years before.

 

Maybe you had some very small kidney stones.  That's the sort of thing that I'd worry about.   The more I think about dry fasting, the more I see ways to injure yourself.   So far we have talk of weak cells "incinerating" themselves... I'll chalk that up to bad translation, but it doesn't give me confidence.  I had a friend who was hospitalized for days with kidney failure due to dehydration.  He wasn't dry fasting, so I won't make an apples vs. oranges comparison, but dehydration is pretty dangerous; potentially lethal.  I don't see why old injuries should flare up from a beneficial metabolic procedure.  If it's in fact beneficial, that is.

[ambivalent]

 

Maybe you had some very small kidney stones.  That's the sort of thing that I'd worry about.   The more I think about dry fasting, the more I see ways to injure yourself.   So far we have talk of weak cells "incinerating" themselves... I'll chalk that up to bad translation, but it doesn't give me confidence.  I had a friend who was hospitalized for days with kidney failure due to dehydration.  He wasn't dry fasting, so I won't make an apples vs. oranges comparison, but dehydration is pretty dangerous; potentially lethal.  I don't see why old injuries should flare up from a beneficial metabolic procedure.  If it's in fact beneficial, that is.

 

 

Poor translation, or perhaps poor memory. Well when I was first interested in water-fasting I tried to find some timeline of the fasting process/cycle. I came across what was I supposed  a yogi site - they commented that one of the downside was experiencing old injuries flaring up as they are being (re)repaired. This has certainly been an effect I've observed. A week after a seven day water fast I knelt down and I could feel the crutiate ligament strain I'd  20 odd years before: that was the most unambigous effect. During one dry fast my chest muscle became very tender and lasted for a couple of weeks after: excessive coughing due to allergies had caused real strain in that  muscle in previous years.

 

This journalist BBC journalist decided (there are three articles) to try a not a overly adventurous form of fasting:

 

My blood tests also detected a significant rise in a type of cell, which may play a role in the regeneration of tissues and organs.

 

"Your data corresponds to pre-clinical data that we got from animal models that shows that cycles of fasting could elevate this particular substance, considered to be stem cells," said Dr Min Wei, the lead investigator.

 

When I read this I wondered whether this might explain what I'd experienced with the injuries; certainly it might explain my skin regeneration.

 

But I'd have thought dehydration is not contingent (but naturally correlated) with the amount of water in the body; so long as the body can obtain water at the rate it is needed dehydration shouldn't occur?  I know when I fast what sort of limited activity I will be doing, I don't continue fasting if my mouth is dry and it is not to be done unsupervised. It is of course going to be dangerous if not done properly and it won't be by some. I hope it is researched because as fasting is obviously becoming very peopular and so the tail of the distribution will undoubtedly get thicker and that's where the dry-fasters are. 

 

I certainly appreciate and pay heed to your advice niner; only those doing it think it is a sensible thing to do :-)

Edited by ambivalent, 19 May 2015 - 01:45 AM.

[ambivalent]

 

Maybe you had some very small kidney stones.  That's the sort of thing that I'd worry about.   The more I think about dry fasting, the more I see ways to injure yourself.   So far we have talk of weak cells "incinerating" themselves... I'll chalk that up to bad translation, but it doesn't give me confidence.  I had a friend who was hospitalized for days with kidney failure due to dehydration.  He wasn't dry fasting, so I won't make an apples vs. oranges comparison, but dehydration is pretty dangerous; potentially lethal.  I don't see why old injuries should flare up from a beneficial metabolic procedure.  If it's in fact beneficial, that is.

 

 

If you're interested. This is Filonov's website: http://filonov.net/ : there is a lot of content.

 

From the handful of paragraphs I've read it appears the translation (via google translate) is far more readable than the book.

Edited by ambivalent, 20 May 2015 - 02:06 PM.