6 replies to this topic

[bandario]

Morning all, 

I do hope I am posting in the right section; I just finished reading this and other topics and it seems there are some knowledgeable individuals here who might be able to help. http://www.longecity...e-or-withdrawal- if I am in the wrong place, please redirect my post rather than deleting.



My story, as I interpret it is that I have suffered near crippling insomnia all my life. Even as a baby I never slept, and as a child, adolescent and adult just in blocks of 1-2 hours at a time which never really agreed with the outside world and my place in it. Through highschool and early university I just sort of dealt with it, but in final year university and my first 3 years in the professional world going without sleep was just no longer an option.

After years of research my primary theory for my high strung, poor sleeper nature was that I have a higher than normal circulating level of epinephrine. Living in the state I was in probably also sent my cortisol levels sky high, but that is largely in check these days thanks to some medicine, but I am jumping the gun.


I used to drink heavily to put myself to sleep at night, and I do still battle with daily drinking but nowhere in the realms of what I used to. I discovered phenibut at university and it was like a magic bullet. For the first time in my life I was able to get uninterrupted sleep, and wake feeling refreshed and recharged. I was a machine. Fit, healthy and feeling amazing.

I was aware of how quickly the required dosage could increase and so for a good few years I would only ever take it 3 nights per week, no matter what. Often that meant I would either go without sleep all weekend or just drink myself to sleep; not realising I was just messing with the same receptors anyway. Because phenibut has such a long half-life I was often able to get a bit of sleep on my off nights if I spread the on-nights correctly.

Fast forward to a few years later and somebody hands me the Principalship of an entire school. I could no longer afford to have nights without sleep and so I started to take phenibut almost every night, and stilnox on the off nights. The dosage creeped up slowly over a couple of years until I was getting side effects/ withdrawal in the daytime. At this point I started taking bacopa and ashwagandha and went through an extremely nasty withdrawal during one school holiday.

Soon it was time to go back to school, I had planned nothing and felt no better....even after weeks of protracted withdrawal. I had to start taking phenibut again.

Thanks to the ash and bacopa, my effective dosage of the phenibut was back down to a quarter of what I was taking and I was quite happy with that. I kept my dosage at that level for another 18 months but this time, I seldom took breaks.

Again I started to experience huge attacks of anxiety in the day, and my sleep became unreliable. Over a 2 week school break, I went through another cold turkey withdrawal and again I felt no improvement. 5 nights without a wink of sleep had me contemplating suicide and wondering if I could ever recover from this mess I had made. I had tried to taper down in the past but of course as soon as I got to a certain level there was no sleep for me.

After a trip to the emergency room thinking I was having some sort of cardiac event, I just walked away. 6 years of education and 4 years in the industry and I just walked away, hoping that the stressful environment was the source of some of these problems. I took a low stress, low pay job but alas; all jobs demand a regular sleep cycle. Not only did I not have one, my gaba system was so shot that I still had a choice between either not sleeping at all or taking some form of gaba drug or huge amounts of alcohol.

I tried at least 20 different doctors during this time and aside from offering me valium prescriptions (which i'm glad I refused), nobody knew what to do. I was at the point of trying to get myself commited to a psych ward when I stumbled on the details of a doctor who ran an alcohol treatment program in my area utilising baclofen.

My 'normal' drinking, when not trying to get myself to sleep had never bothered me that much. I generally have about 3 beers and 3 glasses of wine per night and it has never really caused me any concern. After some protracted conversations about physiology and pharmacology, I came to an unspoken agreement with the doc; I could enter the program but it must be under the guise of alcohol treatment as phenibut withdrawal was not part of the entry...nobody has even heard of it.


So here I am, it is about 14 months since I started this treatment: 25mg of baclofen and 5mg of pindolol (antagonistic of adrenaline) taken morning and night, with a dose of valdoxan (melatonin agonist) at night to kick my arse to sleepland. I still drink daily but never in the heroic quantities that I used to when trying to get to sleep.

I feel amazing. I sleep every single night, my anxiety is almost nil and aside from having a bit of a hard time getting up to an alarm clock, the world is rosy. I don't take ashwagandha or bacopa anymore, and haven't had a dose of phenibut since I started this program.


So why am I posting this? Well, I just don't see an end in sight. I have discussed with the doc many times, what comes next? and really, he has no answers for me.  It costs me over $200 per month for the medications I am taking. Honestly, that is not the part that worries me. I'd be prepared to pay that cost for the rest of my life to keep getting this quality and amount of sleep. 

The thing that troubles me, is I don't feel that I have actually fixed anything. If I miss a dose of my medication, I am a mess. I know full well what it would feel like if I were to stop cold turkey, just like all the other times. In my mind, all I have done is substitute a cheap gaba agonist (phenibut) for a very expensive one that comes from a doctor and seems to have a few less side effects...but what of my liver? Valdoxan is known to cause liver complications in some people, and I am still drinking a bit.

Lately I am having thoughts of attempting to taper off of all these drugs, and start taking ashwagandha, bacopa, chewable melatonin and lemon balm. The thread I referenced at the top however, makes me think that ashwagandha is just another gaba agonist and again...I'm achieving nothing, my brain is still broken. 

I want to fix myself, not be reliant on medication my entire life. How long can you even take baclofen? 

Does anyone see any utility in taking bacopa with my current cocktail, and perhaps reduce my drinking even further to try and upregulate my gaba system? 


If you made it this far down, I'd really appreciate your thoughts, however harsh they may be.


TL:DR - years of gaba drug abuse have wrecked my brain, I'm afraid my current solution is just prolonging or making the problem worse. Where is the way out?

 

Edited by bandario, 14 February 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[JellyRev]

A definitive answer has not been found yet.

alcoholics are using baclofen in much higher doses to essentially sub in for alcohol.

 

$200 a month? I think you could get those products much cheaper online unless most of the cost is valodoxan in which case it could be subbed out for melatonin.  

 

 

Pretty sure baclofen can be taken for a long time but just watch out for the withdrawal. 

 

I'm in a similar boat as you, Just trialed baclofen and propanolol for 2 months, although it did help numb anxiety it was not fixing the cause and they have other problems that come with them. 

 

I'm thinking there is something upstream because I do on rare occasion get these alcohol hangovers where all my symptoms are relieved until I eat. 

[StevesPetRat]

Kava kava seems to upregulate GABA receptors while also being an agonist. Cerebrolysin helps a lot of people, too. Are you unusually short or anything? GH also plays a role in maintaining sleep, maybe MK-677 for that. Good luck.

[Dichotohmy]

This might be controversial, but have you ever considered medical marijuana? Insomnia can be a green-light condition to get a prescription, and buying from a medical collective (or growing your own) is about the only way to be sure you're getting a strain with the desired medical effects - versus buying from the smelly dude with dreadlocks, from whom you have no idea what you're getting. It doesn't increase the quality of my sleep (nothing seems to), but MM sure has a way of inducing sleepiness. THC has melatonergic effects. Cannabidiol products, or CBD-rich strains, are also good for battling insomnia and reducing anxiety, which your post suggests is a problem for you. 

 

I used to be dependent on alcohol as well, largely for getting to sleep at a decent hour, so I get where you're coming from. Straight-up gaba agonists, tricyclics, and the standard supplements like magnesium, valerian, etc advise aren't nearly as effective for me in maintaining a circadian rhythm as MM.

 

 

Edited by Dichotohmy, 14 February 2015 - 09:38 PM.

[bandario]

No, I'm quite tall. I long suspected a mild form of cushings but most doctors just laugh that one out the door.



Sadly, medical marijuana is a distant dream in this redneck wonderland. Not to mention my new industry does drug testing. I'd be interested to see what a pure indica strain, high in cannabinoids could do for me but 90% of the weed I've ever tried has kept me awake. Sativa + high THC just sends my mind racing and I roll around all night, and that seems to be what everyone breeds for.


I have kicked around the idea of swapping out my nightcap for kava, maybe i'll give this a go with some bacopa and see how I feel...perhaps I could start tapering down on the baclofen. Thanks for the replies.

[3mp0w3r]

Sadly, medical marijuana is a distant dream in this redneck wonderland. Not to mention my new industry does drug testing. I'd be interested to see what a pure indica strain, high in cannabinoids could do for me but 90% of the weed I've ever tried has kept me awake. Sativa + high THC just sends my mind racing and I roll around all night, and that seems to be what everyone breeds for.
 

 

I used to live in Brisbane.  QLD refuses to use daylight savings time.  In summer the sun comes up at like 430AM and it is dark by around 530-6PM.  Seems insane unless you are an early morning surfer.   

 

The concept of medical marijuana would be scoffed at by 90% of Aussie docs.  It isn't taught in med school so only a few people have any knowledge of it.  

 

There are a few of us that seem to be wired for alertness at night time.  Delayed sleep-phase disorder (DSPD) is a concept I recently came across.  Not sure if this applies to you.  Essentially the time at which you become sleepy is delayed relative to normal people.  (ie. 4am is time for bed, 10am is time for waking up if you just allow your own circadian rhythm to take place).  

 

The way I see it, you have 2 problems.  Drinking and the sleep disorder.  It is going to be difficult to quit drinking.  You essentially have to clear the whole house of alcohol and stop hanging out with friends that are heavy drinkers.  Late night exercise might help.  You would be replacing drinking with another activity and it would require a 24hr gym membership.  You would need to focus on anaerobic training since cardio can make people more awake.  Just an idea.  

[Brett Black]

I want to fix myself, not be reliant on medication my entire life. How long can you even take baclofen?

I seem to recall that baclofen is considered suitable for life-long use to treat spasticity - some people have implanted automatic baclofen pumps. Are you sure you need every one of these medications? I don't know your exact situation, but baclofen alone has shown evidence of improving sleep, maybe you could experiment with increasing the baclofen dose and weaning off the other drugs (or perhaps vice versa)?