18 replies to this topic

[caliban]

Many people at Longecity are interested in nutritional supplements and procure them from sometimes dubious sources. 

 

Given that even the biggest retailers don't always supply what is promised on the label, the need is great to have an occasional validation.

It will only ever be possible to take a random sample of products and retailers, but perhaps even the prospect that such a programme exists would help deter some offenders.      

 

There are obviously financial, logistic and even some legal challenges, but I think an occasional sampling programme supported by LongeCity may be feasible. 

 

 

I have floated this idea before - trying again to gauge interest and potential commitment.

Any productive thoughts, ideas and experiences please share below.

This topic is moderated by the treadstarter. Pointless contributions will be removed.   

Edited by YOLF, 19 June 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Very nice idea.

 

Perhaps considering the supplement effectiveness would require a control group and a group of people using the supplememnt.

 

Some of the finantial challenges can be solved.

 

For example, I suppose, that there are many people here, who take different types of supplements already. They may would like to check their effectiveness, by comapreing some measurable change with a control group. They pay for the supplements already. Their benefit can be to see if this exact supplement really works. The benefit for the people from the control group will be to see if it is a good idea to start taking the tested supplement. Thus 2 groups of people can be organized, that not to cost something for longecity. First group that already purchases some supplement with their own money and want to insure themselves about its effectiveness, and a control group of people, who don't take any supplements, and want to see if it is a good idea to spend money for the tested supplement.

 

I suggested that in a previous topic

http://www.longecity...arch +for +free

 

The key is to be gathered people, who are willing to participate.

[Ceretropic]

If you wanted to somehow integrate with our Reddit testing program, I would love to get that going. We have funding in our donation account, and can raise a lot more if needed. I am just too busy to dedicate the time needed to really get things to the next level. I have already registered www.nootropictesting.com, and am speaking with another moderator here, YOLF, about getting a nonprofit setup. There was a lawyer on Reddit offering pro bono work in doing the legal side of setting it up too. I have relationships with testing labs that we can utilize, and am building an in-house testing lab at our facility as well. I am about to buy a P-NMR, and will be getting a GC/MS sometime later this year. I pretty much have everything needed, save for time. We can even utilize Nootropics Depots lab for basic testing, to see which samples need to be tested on more expensive equipment, till we have the equipment on hand. I think having joint Reddit/Longecity effort would benefit the community as a whole.

 

If you wanted to setup a completely separate operation, since inevitably people are going to claim conflict of interest, I can just help with pointing you in the direction of things you need, or even get you funding. Just let me know. Funding is not really that big of a challenge. People want to donate to programs like these. Even vendors themselves want to donate. A lot of our funding and help has come from LiftMode and Nootropics Depot. There are ways to leverage those relationships to get things off the ground.

[Mind]

How much money have you raised thus far (through reddit)? This would help in knowing whether a collaboration is desirable or possible.

 

A couple of similar suggestions recently:

 

http://www.longecity...od-andor-supps/

 

http://www.longecity...ur-supps-foods/

Edited by Mind, 09 March 2015 - 07:48 PM.

[Ceretropic]

I think there is about $5K in the testing fund at the moment. However, I told people that we did not need more funds at this point in time. Raising more should not be an issue.

[Heisenburger]

I will gladly donate a small (I don't make much more than minimum wage at the moment) amount if the need arises again.

[cylon]

I think this is a brilliant idea. Recently subscribed to consumer labs, and. although a good source of info wonder how impartial they can be since they accept advertising

[smccomas01]

I would donate to the cause. 

[niner]

 

Given that even the biggest retailers don't always supply what is promised on the label, the need is great to have an occasional validation.

 

 

There is certainly a need for validation, particularly in the shadier parts of the supplement universe.  However, the case linked here was a person who tried to use DNA barcoding analysis to authenticate substances that didn't contain DNA.  It was just wrong, and means little or nothing.  Just like the TLR brouhaha, it was the wrong methodology for the job.

[YOLF]

Still, we're always seeing complaints and need to investigate things. This study could well be a sham or who knows what, but we've seen what happens when testing isn't done diligently enough in animal models such as when lead was in many popular dog and cat foods.

[niner]

Still, we're always seeing complaints and need to investigate things. This study could well be a sham or who knows what, but we've seen what happens when testing isn't done diligently enough in animal models such as when lead was in many popular dog and cat foods.

 

It happened to be a granstanding State Attorney General using erroneous testing results to crucify several large retail corporations for whom supplements were a tiny fraction of their business.   I'm just trying to correct the record, not argue that testing isn't needed.  It is definitely needed.  We just need to be sure that it's done correctly.

[Logic]

I assume what is meant by a 'third party testing of supplements programe' is the sending of samples to  lab to be tested?
Are we talking about getting group buy substances tested by a lab before releasing payment from an escrow account, or randomly test supps from different manufacturers?

I feel that the testing of group buy substances would be a tremendous service to the community and greatly appreciated and utilised.

Said lab would need to be completely neutral and have no financial stakes in any of the substances tested.

I would also post a link in the supplements section to here...

 

BTW:  check the spelling of the title.  'programe'  

Edited by Logic, 10 January 2016 - 04:31 PM.

[Logic]

Many members dont often come to this sub forum and would probably miss this thread.
I think this is a great idea and have taken the liberty of posting a link to here, in various sub forums frequented by members most likely to think this as good an idea as I do:


http://www.longecity...ogram/?p=757821
http://www.longecity...ogram/?p=757825
http://www.longecity...ogram/?p=757827
http://www.longecity...ogram/?p=757823
http://www.longecity...ogram/?p=757820

[EFTANG]

 

There is certainly a need for validation, particularly in the shadier parts of the supplement universe.  However, the case linked here was a person who tried to use DNA barcoding analysis to authenticate substances that didn't contain DNA.  It was just wrong, and means little or nothing.  Just like the TLR brouhaha, it was the wrong methodology for the job.

 

 

I'm all for this. The supplement industry is as corrupted as you can imagine.

 

Just read e.g. this recent report where some cases of substitution, fortification, herbal depletion and adulteration are described  (bilberry, milk thistle, silymarin extract, grapeseed extract are mentioned).

Another one is this article, which covers another prolematic area. 'Dry labbing' : issuing fake lab reports and CoA's. Complete with undercover journalists the notorious Atlas Bioscience is being unmasked (was used a lot in the supplement industry because it is cheap... duh!)

[Mind]

This is a good idea, however, testing for the potency of supplements will be kind-of expensive, because any lab that is chosen will first have to find a pure reference sample. Then test the products against the reference.

 

Testing for contamination might be a little easier and cheaper to start out. Maybe could detect fillers, toxins, heavy metals, etc...

[niner]

This is a good idea, however, testing for the potency of supplements will be kind-of expensive, because any lab that is chosen will first have to find a pure reference sample. Then test the products against the reference.

 

Testing for contamination might be a little easier and cheaper to start out. Maybe could detect fillers, toxins, heavy metals, etc...

 

There are three things that we need to know:  The first is identity-- Is it the molecule we think it is?   The second is purity--  How much of the sample is the molecule we want, and how much of the sample is garbage?  The third is related to the second:  Are any of the impurities harmful?

There are ways to determine identity without a reference sample.  NMR, IR, and MS-MS are all possibilities.  Having a reference sample simplifies the problem, but there are a lot of cases where reference samples are not available.  In some cases, the cost of the sample would exceed the cost of the spectroscopy. 

[EFTANG]

Having a reference sample simplifies the problem, but there are a lot of cases where reference samples are not available.  In some cases, the cost of the sample would exceed the cost of the spectroscopy. 

 

 

 

Very true. Reference samples are most of the time available but can be expensive. Sigma-Aldrich is the most well-known source, probably. Because of the cost it is not realistic for consumers to have samples analysed. As an example, I recently heard that determination of ganoderic acids in Reishi costs ± $7000 (relatively expensive) but beta-glucan analysis is only ± $ 350.  For a company those costs are peanuts and tax-deductible. The results will give them a unique selling point, which is great for marketing. 

 

Which is why I try to deal only with companies that invest in this. Companies that hire third party labs to analyse their products for purity and contamination. It shows that the company is not afraid of the results (because they know they have a decent product) and take both their products and their customers serious. As a matter of fact, I tend to distrust companies that do not do this. I used to contact companies and ask for COA's etc, and usually the answer was either 'that's only for qualified people / proprietary information' or no answer at all. I distrust lack of transparency.

[mikey]

I think this is a brilliant idea. Recently subscribed to consumer labs, and. although a good source of info wonder how impartial they can be since they accept advertising

 

Although they can provide some valuable information ConsumerLab is a poor source of concise in-depth information with a history of conflicts of interest.

http://www.anh-usa.o...pplement-tests/

 

http://michaelmooney...NotCredible.htm

 

I am greatly in favor of the concept to do testing, as this thread suggests, and will contribute whatever I can to it.

 

I'm not a chemist, but I'll donate.

[Logic]

 

This is a good idea, however, testing for the potency of supplements will be kind-of expensive, because any lab that is chosen will first have to find a pure reference sample. Then test the products against the reference.

 

Testing for contamination might be a little easier and cheaper to start out. Maybe could detect fillers, toxins, heavy metals, etc...

 

There are three things that we need to know:  The first is identity-- Is it the molecule we think it is?   The second is purity--  How much of the sample is the molecule we want, and how much of the sample is garbage?  The third is related to the second:  Are any of the impurities harmful?

There are ways to determine identity without a reference sample.  NMR, IR, and MS-MS are all possibilities.  Having a reference sample simplifies the problem, but there are a lot of cases where reference samples are not available.  In some cases, the cost of the sample would exceed the cost of the spectroscopy. 

 

 

Pubchem has MS-MS. GC-MS graphs for LOTS of substances:
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/#

I looked of resveratrol:

https://pubchem.ncbi...4#section=GC-MS

 

Hope that helps?