207 replies to this topic

[pone11]

Is there a good way to get long term storage of C60+OO?   I have left it out about four months and would like to store for maybe up to a year.    Not sure if putting it in refrigerator or freezer would be appropriate.

[Kalliste]

I've been keeping it in the freezer. Even then I intend to use these bottles within 6 months and not wait longer.

[pone11]

I've been keeping it in the freezer. Even then I intend to use these bottles within 6 months and not wait longer.

 

So you store in freezer, and when that bottle is ready for use you take out and thaw and then store room temperature?

[niner]

C60oo seems pretty stable when stored reasonably.  I keep mine in a freezer, in brown glass bottles with polyseal lids.  At that temperature, it should last for years.  When I want to use it, I let it come up to room temperature before opening it.  These bottles are sized to hold one month's worth, so they only stay at room temperature for a month until they're empty.  I've never had any problem with this methodology.

Edited by niner, 26 August 2015 - 01:37 AM.

[pone11]

C60oo seems pretty stable when stored reasonably.  I keep mine in a freezer, in brown glass bottles with polyseal lids.  At that temperature, it should last for years.  When I want to use it, I let it come up to room temperature before opening it.  These bottles are sized to hold one month's worth, so they only stay at room temperature for a month until they're empty.  I've never had any problem with this methodology.

 

What do you think would be the maximum lifespan at room temperature?

[Anthropositor]

I'm going to operate on the premise that opinion and conjecture are abundant in this subject.  I read the entire thread, then came back to the first page, which I read a bit more carefully.  I am a careful empirical experimenter.  The initiator, Niner I believe engages the subject unusually well.  The various comments that C60 in olive oil is disgusting or nasty or repellent in any other way are entirely subjective, and perhaps strike fear in those who need not have that apprehension.  My wife is resistant to a second spoonful of unflavored yogurt, yet because I did not share these negative taste reactions to C60 and olive oil, she takes hers without any qualm or the slightest contortion of face.  She does not even reach for something to chase it with.  The description, seen more than once, of a peppery taste is just an enigma to me.  Having read these other opinions prior to my first purchase and first taste, when I did taste it, I entertained the notion that perhaps I had gotten an adulterated, diluted, or counterfeit product.  I truly doubt that is the case, but I am not equipped to prove it by laboratory analysis.  I just stopped, though I had today's dose upon arising this morning to consume 10 more drops which I did not rinse down with anything.  There is the slightest acridity differentiating it from plain olive oil.  I would not have noticed it if I hadn't been so carefully looking for it.

 

Opinions are all over the map as to how to take it.  Here is how I take mine, and why.  I don't mix it with food.  What I take costs in excess of $.40 per mg of C60 Fullerene, and in other brands, $.90 or more per mg.  I want the best chance to digest and absorb all of what I ingest.  I want none excreted in my feces mixed with other solid food wastes.  The cost of the olive oil portion is negligible.  Periodically I have added 60 drops to a coffee liquor which is 42 proof, (21% alcohol).  The idea is that the alcohol will break down some of the olive oil, perhaps unclothing the C60 to some extent.  In the process I take 1 oz of the liquor, add the 60 drops of Fullerene, and shake very vigorously for five minutes.  Bear in mind that 79% of the liquor is water, coffee and other unspecified flavorings.  What I expected was to have a layer separate out upon settling after the shake.  This is not what I got.  I got two layers on top, both of distinctly different colors from the dark coffee liquor itself.  Prompted by this unexpected result, I then did the experiment with gin at 40% alcohol.  This time I got the expected single layer, but the absolute clarity of the gin allowed me some other observations not possible in the first sample.  I consumed these samples on an empty stomach without ill effects, eventually followed by filtered, aged water in copious amounts.

 

My wife and myself, during the past three weeks, have between us, consumed 1 oz of the C60 Fullerene/olive oil product.  This amounts to approximately 14 mg C60 for me, and 8 mg for her.  Supplemental vitamins, minerals, biotics, enzymes and amino acids, are taken at distant parts of the day, with the full spectrum of foods we would ordinarily eat.  We will continue this protocol until some reason presents itself to alter it.  I do not, at present, foresee that happening.

 

I am not at all clear on the difference(s) between C60 and C60oo(?)  Perhaps some one could elaborate.  My guesses are that the later might be doped with something or be a clumpier conglomeration of C60.  I'll also hazard a guess that even the commercial forms of C60 in olive oil available may not be entirely C60 in content, but may also have unlisted traces of C70 and other carbon allotropes.  I would appreciate any input. 

 

 

[sthira]

^^ c60oo is c60 in olive oil. I think most people here who make their own use 99.9% or 99.95% purity, which may mean there's some trace of c70 included in the deal.

[Kalliste]

 

C60oo seems pretty stable when stored reasonably.  I keep mine in a freezer, in brown glass bottles with polyseal lids.  At that temperature, it should last for years.  When I want to use it, I let it come up to room temperature before opening it.  These bottles are sized to hold one month's worth, so they only stay at room temperature for a month until they're empty.  I've never had any problem with this methodology.

 

What do you think would be the maximum lifespan at room temperature?

 

 

Some have reported nasty oil after 1 year in room temperature in unopened (I think it was unopened) bottles.

I would not keep it longer than that in room temp and I see no reason to do it (can always buy more). The only circumstance for me would be after a nuclear war or something, and in that situation I would try it anyway

[Huckfinn]

I was wondering what the consensus is on ways of mixing C60 with OO: I use the mortar & pestle method and then shake regularly the mixture for approx. two weeks. Do you think the mortar & pestle is necessary if preparing C600OO this way?
Thanks!

[Anthropositor]

Thank you for the clarity Sthira.  In my opinion Huckfinn, if your C60 is already an exceedingly fine powder, the mortar and pestle are probably not doing much good.  If I were to make my C60OO instead of purchasing ready made, I think I would consider vibrating my mixture of C60 and olive oil in an ultrasonic bath like a jewelry cleaning device.  It occurs to me that if I were to find a source of dry C60 that was within my economic means then I could increase the concentration of the C60 beyond the current ratio of 99.95% purity Buckminsterfullerene.  The ratio of the product I'm using is 45mg C60 to 50 ml Olive Oil. I could continue to use more of the same product I am using and just add and ultrasonically vibrate more C60 within it, achieving whatever concentration I chose.  So far, I have not found a source of dry C60 in amounts I could afford though.

 

Just brainstorming a bit more though, my only reason for the interest in high purity like 99.95 or 99.99 percent is that the remainder is a trace of an unknown or at least an unidentified substance.  I would feel pretty comfortable using a mortar and pestle or some other grinding method on pristine food grade activated charcoal.  My only concern would be, if I mixed it all together, would that activated charcoal itself entrap the C60 and prevent it from being useful before it made it to the cellular interiors?   That possibility seems to suggest the notion of dosing with C60OO on alternate days or even on alternating weeks with the finely divided activated charcoal, also mixed with Olive Oil.  Certainly very, very economical, by several orders of magnitude.  Since I am a large bipedal guinea pig ready to do it, I think I have the nucleus of a game plan. The activated charcoal is entirely within my means.  Time to go to sleep and brainstorm/dream a little.

[Kalliste]

Why activated charcoal? You are aware of the study on that and lifespan from Russia being bunk are you?

[sthira]

Just brainstorming a bit more though, my only reason for the interest in high purity like 99.95 or 99.99 percent is that the remainder is a trace of an unknown or at least an unidentified substance. I would feel pretty comfortable using a mortar and pestle or some other grinding method on pristine food grade activated charcoal.

FWIW, I've tried home brew batches of 99.9%, 99.95%, and 99.99% purifies and have found no subjective differences between them. Some here have suggested that the more pure may not be worth the extra money, and some small amount of c70 may offer additional benefits. Of course we're remembering that we're guinea pigs here and dealing with longterm unknowns. Also, I found grinding with a (ceramic) mortar and pestle just made a mess, wasted c60, and didn't seem to matter much in the dissolution. Nor do I use any mechanical shaking device; rather, I pour in the c60, leave it alone for a month, maybe hand shake it a few times a day, and it'll turn magenta in time. And particles you may plainly see using a cat toy laser, and these particles seem to become less visible through time.

[Kalliste]

Also keep in mind it seems clusters are excreted with faeces. The rat study provided rats with huge amounts of nC60 and nothing much happened to them during 30 Days.

[pone11]

When are the next results due in for studies that are attempting to confirm the original C60+OO Baati result?

[Anthropositor]

Hi Sthira.  Given the economic circumstances in my situation, I don't think I am likely to mess up my C60 in a fashion which makes it unconsumable or otherwise ionically denatured.  I am not at all receptive to the notion of mixing it with activated charcoal, no matter how finely I have processed it.  My reasoning is that it is reasonable to expect that the C60 will just incorporate within the activated charcoal and become in essence inert to reactive oxygen species.  That's why I now take my C60 suspended in the olive oil on a totally empty stomach.  I haven't firmed up on the conditions for the activated charcoal; full stomach, empty stomach, suspended in oil, mixed with water, that sort of thing.  I do know I won't be ingesting it dry to avoid accidental inhalation.  And I know the dosing with the activated charcoal will be 12 hours away from the dosing of the C60.  

 

Two things disturb me about these professional scientists in the original rat experiment, presuming I understand it correctly.  First, all the rats in whichever test group were entubated from nose or mouth to stomach so that they could be precisely dosed by gavage.  This is not an entirely convenient procedure from the rat perspective, whether the scientists did it freshly for each dose, or left the tube in place, long term.  It is, after all, a longevity experiment which wound up going on for nearly double the projected lifespan of the rodents.  This does not even seem to be on the radar of these illustrious researchers.  Just standard operating procedure apparently.  After all, these rats were reaping the substantial benefit of a hugely extended lifespan.  Does anyone wonder about the quality of the life of these creatures?  were they periodically afforded the opportunity for coitus?  I understand that this is a rather frequent normal activity for rats.  And if they were not, how do we know that uniformly enforced solitary confinement and celibacy were not intrinsic contributors to the remarkably increased lifespans?

 

But the second thing is even more remarkable.  Apparently after all but one rat had died, the scientist in charge decides he is sick and tired of waiting for this most successful rat of all to croak.  What more could be learned anyway?  So this scientist in charge just premeditatedly murders this most illustrious and venerable paragon of the rodent nobility.  The exact method of execution is not public as far as I know.  Nor are the results of the autopsy if one was performed.  Perhaps said chief scientist just stepped on the foot pedal of a waste receptacle and dropped the carcass into it.  Then perhaps he stripped off his surgical gloves and went to the cafeteria for a cup of coffee, feeling great satisfaction in a job well done.     

[Anthropositor]

Hmmm.  Four anonymous button pushes,  All negative.  No details.  That would mean identifying yourselves and putting some thought into your opposition.  Off topic?  Are we not talking about the very studies which we are relying on to sort out the value of C60?  The details I have brought up certainly have potential impact on the study itself, perhaps to the extent of partially invalidating it.   Good grief!  The point was to measure the change in the lifespans of the creatures.  How can it possibly be correct or even "scientific" to kill the last of the test subjects?  How can we know how long that last creature might have lasted?  If the animal had lasted months more, would that have not changed the statistical numbers?

 

Show yourselves and defend your positions gentlemen (and other possible genders).  If you do, I stand ready to defend, retract, or revise and extend my remarks.  Currently, the only revision I can see as appropriate is the little smiley face emoticon punctuating the piece.  It was inappropriate and entirely incongruous. 

[Metrodorus]

There are EU regulations about animal welfare. These dictate euthanising elderly test subjects under certain conditions,which, I believe, were met in this instance.

 

[Anthropositor]

Thank you Metrodorus for pointing that out.  I doubt you were one of the button pushers.  I just reread my to previous posts to be sure of exactly what I said.  While I did use some dramatic terminology, I said nothing that indicated that "putting the animal to sleep" was unlawful in the country where it occurred, nor that torture was involved.  Perhaps we can agree that, at the very least, the early (utterly humane) termination of the lifespan of the test animal altered the statistical results of the study, and from that perspective should have been avoided.

 

 While I was reading the posts again, I did notice an error, but it did not change the gist of it, or my perspective meaningfully.  Peace to you sir.

[niner]

Opinions are all over the map as to how to take it.  Here is how I take mine, and why.  I don't mix it with food.  What I take costs in excess of $.40 per mg of C60 Fullerene, and in other brands, $.90 or more per mg.  I want the best chance to digest and absorb all of what I ingest.  I want none excreted in my feces mixed with other solid food wastes.  The cost of the olive oil portion is negligible.  Periodically I have added 60 drops to a coffee liquor which is 42 proof, (21% alcohol).  The idea is that the alcohol will break down some of the olive oil, perhaps unclothing the C60 to some extent.

 

 

When c60 is combined with olive oil, it doesn't just dissolve, but rather it reacts with the olive oil, forming a new molecule.  In particular, it reacts with one of the fatty acids on the olive oil trigliceride molecule.  (All common fats and vegetable oils are triglycerides.)  When you eat a triglyceride, the body has a highly evolved mechanism for digesting it.  Part of the process involves the secretion of bile, which is triggered by the presence of fats or oils in the GI tract.  In order to make sure this secretion has occurred, I like to take c60oo with a fatty meal, or in sufficiently large quantities by itself.  This particular concern may or may not be warranted, but doesn't seem to harm anything.  I don't worry about bioavailability when taken with food, since the body is pretty good at wringing the fat out of food matrices.  In fact, I rarely take it without food.  You mentioned the reported peppery taste of c60oo.  This depends entirely on the olive oil that is used to make it-- some olive oils are very peppery, some are bitter, and some are very mild.  These flavors are mainly due to the polyphenols in the oil, which vary according to cultivar and climactic condition.  The flavor is unlikely to have any bearing on the activity of the c60oo, although when consumed in sufficient quantity, olive oil polyphenols are themselves longevity-promoting.

 

Because the c60 is covalently attached to the olive oil, rather than simply dissolved, it's not possible to unmask or dissociate it, so the combination with alcohol isn't likely to do much, other than create a novel cocktail.  Probably tastes better than Homer Simpson's Vodka and Mayonnaise, at any rate.

 

$0.40/mg isn't too bad for commercial c60oo, but if you bought a gram from sesres.com and made your own, it would be closer to 10 cents a milligram or less, depending on purity.  You would then have to combine it with olive oil yourself, which isn't terrifically hard to do.

[Hebbeh]

It is, after all, a longevity experiment which wound up going on for nearly double the projected lifespan of the rodents.  This does not even seem to be on the radar of these illustrious researchers.  Just standard operating procedure apparently.  After all, these rats were reaping the substantial benefit of a hugely extended lifespan.  Does anyone wonder about the quality of the life of these creatures?  were they periodically afforded the opportunity for coitus?  I understand that this is a rather frequent normal activity for rats.  And if they were not, how do we know that uniformly enforced solitary confinement and celibacy were not intrinsic contributors to the remarkably increased lifespans?

 

But the second thing is even more remarkable.  Apparently after all but one rat had died, the scientist in charge decides he is sick and tired of waiting for this most successful rat of all to croak.  What more could be learned anyway?  So this scientist in charge just premeditatedly murders this most illustrious and venerable paragon of the rodent nobility.  The exact method of execution is not public as far as I know.  Nor are the results of the autopsy if one was performed.  Perhaps said chief scientist just stepped on the foot pedal of a waste receptacle and dropped the carcass into it.  Then perhaps he stripped off his surgical gloves and went to the cafeteria for a cup of coffee, feeling great satisfaction in a job well done.     

 

It was not a longevity experiment by any definition.  It was the opposite...a toxicity experiment.  Longevity was an unexpected side effect.  Did you even read the paper or any of the many posts discussing it?

[Huckfinn]

......." You would then have to combine it with olive oil yourself, which isn't terrifically hard to do."

How do you prepare it yourself, Niner?
And: have you tried doing it in more ways than one (like morter and pestle + shaking it for a few weeks, or no mortar and pestle, or a magnetic "mixer".....)?

[Metrodorus]

I would avoid contact with dry C60 under all circumstances, as its effects when inhaled are not good. It apparently acts to break down the surfactant layer in the lungs, causing localised collapses. Not good.

 

Using a mortar to grind it is useless - you want single molecules of C60, and no amount of grinding with a mortar will dissociate the clumps to the molecular level. Only chemical action - the dissolution that occurs, in our case, in olive oil - will work.

 

This can take several months to dissolve(I prepare my C60oo a few months in advance of when I will need it). As long as it is kept in a dark place, the oil should not go rancid. A number of studies were carried out on C60 as a preservative for oils - and it is a very effective one.

I don't bother with freezing my C60oo, or chilling it, as I reason that the chemical dissolution will continue indefinitely, as I imagine it would take many months, if not years,  for every single molecule of C60to fully dissociate from a clump and properly dissolve.

 

I believe the Baati olive oil was stored for the duration of the experiment at room temperature.

 

 

Edited by Metrodorus, 28 August 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[Anthropositor]

 

 

It was not a longevity experiment by any definition.  It was the opposite...a toxicity experiment.  Longevity was an unexpected side effect.  Did you even read the paper or any of the many posts discussing it?

 

Good question Hebbeh.  I have read so much about this experiment it can all be running together a bit, and the final result could be obscuring the original intent.  Another thing plays a part too.  Scientists often seem to choose language that is less obscure to their colleagues than it is to unlettered folk like myself.  Sort of a secret code, like doctors use on their prescription pads in their coded instructions to the pharmacist.   I bet I did read it though.  Otherwise the word gavage would not have stuck in my craw.  But the whole thing just didn't stick to my ribs.

 

Look at Niner's post above.  Clearly it was designed to communicate rather than to impress and obscure.  Oddly, it succeeded in not only clearly and crisply communicating but doing it memorably.  I will remember a month from now that I read it, and what I learned from it.

 

Worthwhile though for you to have pointed out that the actual purpose of the experiment was other than the serendipitous outcome.  Many thanks.  

[Metrodorus]

I was wondering what the consensus is on ways of mixing C60 with OO: I use the mortar & pestle method and then shake regularly the mixture for approx. two weeks. Do you think the mortar & pestle is necessary if preparing C600OO this way?
Thanks!

 

To reiterate, exposure to dry c60 dust is unsafe. Unless you are using controlled conditions, I would NOT grind dry C60, and even adding it to the olive oil by yourself at home requires care, (wear a mask) so that no particles are inadvertently inhaled. Dry C60 can cause lung problems.

 

C60 will, over time, react/dissolve with the oil, but it is a slow process - taking many weeks. 

[Turnbuckle]

 

To reiterate, exposure to dry c60 dust is unsafe. Unless you are using controlled conditions, I would NOT grind dry C60, and even adding it to the olive oil by yourself at home requires care, (wear a mask) so that no particles are inadvertently inhaled. Dry C60 can cause lung problems.

 

C60 will, over time, react/dissolve with the oil, but it is a slow process - taking many weeks. 

 

 

 

Where did you get this information? Studies in rats show the stuff is relatively benign.

 

Inflammogenic effect of well-characterized fullerenes in inhalation and intratracheal instillation studies

 

Results

 

In the intratracheal instillation study, both the 0.1 mg and 0.2 mg fullerene groups did not show a significant increase of the total cell and neutrophil count in BALF or in the expression of CINC-1,-2αβ and-3 in the lung, while the high-dose, 1 mg group only showed a transient significant increase of neutrophils and expression of CINC-1,-2αβ and -3. In the inhalation study, there were no increases of total cell and neutrophil count in BALF, CINC-1,-2αβ and-3 in the fullerene group.

 

 

 

It's probably no worse than any of the other nano-particles we are exposed to every day, and likely a lot less troublesome than fine activated carbon* that readily lofts into the air, as I haven't seen any tendency for C60 to loft at all.  As for preparing C60-EVOO, dry grinding is the one step that greatly speeds things up. I recommend using stainless (instead of ceramic) mortar and pestle and adding oil dropwise at the end of the dry grinding process, then pouring out the slurry and repeating until the mortar is clear.

 

*Inhaled carbon black is not that bad, at least for rats.

 

 

I believe the Baati olive oil was stored for the duration of the experiment at room temperature.

 

 

This may be the case, but the rats weren't given the C60 for the entire time, only for the first six months. A sample of this same material was given to AgeVivo--a member here--who did his own experiment on mice with the old oil. It was not a well designed experiment as he had no controls, no pedigree on the mice, and too few of them. Nevertheless, all the mice got cancer, while none of the treated Baati rats got it (as far as is known). So it's a mistake to think that the oil solution won't go bad and possibly turn into the opposite of what you want.

 

 

Not to rain on anyone's non-rancidity parade, but I bought a bottle of C60OO from carbon60oliveoil.com and gave it to my aunt. She didn't use it and it sat on her shelf, at room temperature (in a fairly cool to moderate climate) for a year before I discovered it. 

 

It had become rancid in that year. 

 

So the c60 doesn't magically protect the oil forever. 

 

http://www.longecity...492&qpid=719295

 

 

So best to store what you don't plan to use in the next few months in the freezer. By the usual rule of thumb, chemical reactions are halved with every ten degree decrease in temp, so your oil solution should last roughly 16 times as long at -20 C than at 20 C.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 28 August 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[Metrodorus]

The recent article on C60 and lung damage is here:

 

C60 fullerene promotes lung monolayer collapse

 

http://rsif.royalsoc...140931.abstract

 

Another paper is here:

Carbon fullerenes (C60s) can induce inflammatory responses in the lung of mice

http://www.sciencedi...041008X09005432

 

 

Basically, it would be prudent to view powdered inhaled fullerene as a different creature to dissolved fullerene, and it would be prudent to treat dry powdered fullerene with care.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Metrodorus, 28 August 2015 - 12:28 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

The recent article on C60 and lung damage is here:

 

C60 fullerene promotes lung monolayer collapse

 

http://rsif.royalsoc...140931.abstract

 

Another paper is here:

Carbon fullerenes (C60s) can induce inflammatory responses in the lung of mice

http://www.sciencedi...041008X09005432

 

 

Basically, it would be prudent to view powdered inhaled fullerene as a different creature to dissolved fullerene, and it would be prudent to treat dry powdered fullerene with care.

 

 

 

 

The first link is a "molecular simulation," not a real experiment. As for the second paper, what was the C60 vehicle and what were the doses?

 

Certainly one should not intentionally inhale it, but the powder is not the sort that is easily dispersed in the air, and it likely isn't a problem at all at low doses. See this later paper--

 

Fullerene C60: Inhalation Hazard Assessment and Derivation of a Period-Limited Acceptable Exposure Level

 

...we aimed to determine an acceptable exposure level for humans by reviewing the limited animal toxicity data available. Here, we present an initial hazard assessment, including a review of the available toxicity information of the effects of C60 on the lungs. We then estimated the no-observed-adverse-effect level (NOAEL) of C60 on rat lung toxicity by using lung retention of C60 in inhalation exposure and intratracheal instillation tests. The NOAEL of C60 on rat lung toxicity was estimated to be 3.1 mg/m3. Because this is the NOAEL for subchronic toxicity, a period-limited acceptable exposure level (AEL(PL)) for humans was proposed, which assumed 15 years of exposure and modification within the next 10 years since more knowledge will be gained in the future. The AEL(PL) of C60 particles with a geometric mean of 96 nm and a geometric standard deviation (GSD) of 2.0 was estimated to be 0.39 mg/m3 for healthy workers and 1.4 × 10−2 mg/m3 for the general human population.

 

 

 

By comparison, the 90-day NOAEL for carbon black in rats is 1.1 mg/m3, in line with the estimated NOAEL for C60 estimated above. 

[Daniel Cooper]

When are the next results due in for studies that are attempting to confirm the original C60+OO Baati result?

 

What is the ETA on the follow on studies in progress?

[Huckfinn]

Excuse Turnbuckle, when you say :".. As for preparing C60-EVOO, dry grinding is the one step that greatly speeds things up", does it perhaps also mean that, if you use say 2 or 3 gr of C60 per litre of OO as opposed to 1 and do not grind it first, maybe you get similar fastish results to 1gr ground/lt?

[Turnbuckle]

Excuse Turnbuckle, when you say :".. As for preparing C60-EVOO, dry grinding is the one step that greatly speeds things up", does it perhaps also mean that, if you use say 2 or 3 gr of C60 per litre of OO as opposed to 1 and do not grind it first, maybe you get similar fastish results to 1gr ground/lt?

 

Let's say you reduced the average particle size by a factor of ten by grinding--then you also increased the surface area ten-fold and the speed of dissolution by a factor of ten. So in that case one ground gram of C60 would dissolve as fast as ten unground grams to the saturation point.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 28 August 2015 - 11:46 PM.